From HBO's Rome, it gives a good cinematic depiction of the Oratory Skills of Cicero and Julius Caesar as mentioned in the ancient writings of Plutarch and Suetonius. Enjoy
"Oppose me, and Rome will not forgive you a second time." Look what happened to Caesar's murderers. Did any of them live to die peacefully? No. They were either killed in battle or took their own lives after defeat. Rome did not forgive them a second time indeed.
@Gregory Smith That is true. Not disagreeing with you there. But haughty statement or not, it shows his strong character - and as a politic, you need that. I mean, such a statement is so bold - indeed, 'haughty', as you said - but it's yet hard to argue with.
Julius Caesar had experienced first-hand the purges of Sulla as a young man, hence his forgiving of rebellious senators when he came to power as shown here. His subsequent assassination on the senate floor proved the wisdom of Sulla to Mark Antony and Octavian, who went right back to eliminating everyone who had a hand -however remote- in Caesar's death.
The curious twist of history : the old guy must be Publius Servilius Vatia Isauricus, who was the Princeps Senatus that time - (the eldest senator presided the Senate meetings) untill he died in his 80 in the early summer of 44 BC. He was a great general when he was young, and Julius Caesar begun his career path serving under him and fighting pirates in Cylicia. He was a great general, subdued the cylician pirates, conquered Isauria . Plutarch and Aelian say, he enjoyed a great esteem and despite his age, he was in a good form until his last days.
@@EpaminondastheGreat That was his son that was consul in 48 BC. That Princeps Senatus here is definitly Publius Servilius Vatia Isauricus (The Elder) who was consul in the 70s.
@@EpaminondastheGreat kelvyquayo has already clarified the matters, but let me put these links here nevertheless. this is the publius servilius that original poster talks about and we see in the video: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Servilius_Vatia_Isauricus_(consul_79_BC) and this is the "puppet" one you're talking about: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Servilius_Vatia_Isauricus_(consul_48_BC)
Always get goosebumps every time I see Cicero hold up his hands in that stance as he delivers his notion. The show pays homage to his skills as a master orator
The Roman Senate became a council of corrupt squabbling delegates (see Star Wars). The people supported Caesar to smash the corrupt system and remake the state and Senate. Caesar became the Senate (also, see Star Wars).
benvolio mozart He changed the western world, you incompetent asshole, educated yourself before you speak of men who accomplished the way we live today you clown, you live in their shadows.
Julius Ceasar was a genocidal man, he also declared allies as vassals and attacked neighbors and allies without provocation. He was also corrupt knowingly and hastened the death of the Republic.
This is where Caesar and Octavian differ: Caesar's magnanimity was his undoing, Octavian just went all Sulla on his oponents and cleared his road to empire! Someone should have said the wise words of Bronn of the Blackwater: "You want people to love you, so much, you'll end up the most loved dead man in the city".
I believe anything that would follow Caesar's death would be considered as a direct consequence of it. That's because of the magnitude of the event, which you describe perfectly. Still, Octavian had to fight his way through and on many occasions, he barely escaped downfall and/or death. By the way, Octavian was not the son of a god. The fact that Caesar had been accepted among the gods after his death, is an entirely different thing. Now Octavian is supposed to have received gifts from a few gods just after his birth, but that still doesn't make him divine, just better.
Caesar was a hypocrite though. He murdered, enslaved, and looted his way through Gaul, greatly enriching his own wealth and ensuring the loyalty of soldiers with loot. He used helping Roman-allied Celts as an excuse to wipe out and loot Gallic civilization in France. And sure, he called for reforms by redistributing wealth, but this wasn't his wealth. It's always easy to call for more programs to help the lower classes when the money for these programs doesn't come out of your own pockets. And let's not forget he built his political support on them too - his motives were certainly not so pure.
My reference to his magnanimity was to how he pardoned those o who opposed him, whom would later be some of those who killed him. Octavian did not. But your points thowards his brutalities in Gaul or his hypocrisies in Rome are valid!
Would you rather be honest and die having done nothing, or lie and cheat your way to laying the foundations of the greatest empire in history, and being remembered as such?
@Imperator Caesar, I don't think the dead cares how much they are remembered once they are dead. And if there is an afterlife, the dead will soon find out how insignificant and meaningless all of their wars, conquests, and glory are in the greater scheme of the universe.
Ciaran Hines played Cesar to perfection.. presence, kindness, humility, ruthlessness, intelligence and an authority no one could question... may or may not have been true but here you see a man that conquered all before him... it was the reason I enjoyed Rome.. despite the dodgy accents.... brilliant.. even an Oscar would have been too small for his acting...🤔🧐
wthNOname .... guess you are not British... just a wannabe....you think Cleo spoke like a 15 year old? Even Elizibeth in Blackadder was more convincing than her... you think Cato was a simpering fool?... boy you’re as dumb as dipshit
"Shame on the House of Ptolemies for such barbarity. Shame." "But you are enemies!" "HE WAS A CONSUL OF ROME! ...a consul of Rome." One of my favorite scenes from the show. Caesar (in the show at least) rarely lost his temper and everyone's reaction in that room showed you how frightening he could be.
I would love to have some kind of time machine where I would be able to travel trough time in some kind of spirit form. Just to witness moments in History like this one. To hear these great man speak. Just float in some corner and be the silent witness.
I love the cinematography. Specifically that it focuses the shot on Caesar when he says “Support me in this task, and old divisions will be forgotten. Oppose me” Shows all the senators “And Rome Will not forgive you a second time” They knew as much as Caesar that it was a personally veiled threat. Neither side Trusted each other, and it was an act on both sides
He may have had selfish reasons, but Caesar legitimately tried to help the common people. His reforms in favor of the people of the rich elite is what got him killed. It would be interesting to know how things would have gone had he not been assassinated.
Lesson: never go against the establishment. Especially if the establishment is filled with power hungry elites. Those senators both envied and feared Caesar. When they saw a tiny crack on him, they immediately scheme to dispose him because his policies threatened their wealth and the status quo. The mistake was theirs though, because Octavian avenged his father and showed him what tyrant really is.
Apparently you've never read his commentaries on the Gallic war. The man genocided half of Celts in Gaul, enslaved the rest, then colonized it with Romans, and in the end got rich enough from it to wage his little civil wars.
I thought the 2002 Julia's Caesar movie was also very well portrayed about Caesar laboring in the interest for the state. He was less pompous in that depiction, more introspective, more statesmen like, always thinking for others, for the army and for his nation
Divine acting, the are moments that he dosent need to say a word, his facial expressions do all the work. acting at its best, this guy plays ceaser almost as james gandollfini plays tony soprano, maters of their craft.
@@sml5634 I had almost mentally blocked it out but now you come along and remind me to start the torturous process all over again. Biggest character assassination in the history of historical films 😤
While I am very pro Republic and democratic in my sensibilities, I deeply love Caesar. Yes he was ambitious, egotistical, and motivated by power. But he also genuinely wanted to help make Rome a better place for everyone. His whole philosophy was Win-Win. The men who killed him did it for their own pride and meager ambitions. He was a great man and a great leader
@@podroznikzpustkowi4805 truer words have never been said. The only fault Caesar has was his leniency towards his enemies after victory. He was even warned before the assassination but simply shrugged it off.
@@chaptermastermoloc4171 The only fault he committed is acting like he owned the place- a king. Granted, he may had genuine desire to help the people but after he won the Civil War, he had to go all the way to the: "Most Definitely Not a Roman Monarch with Absolute Powers that can Bypass All Established Institutions that Granted him the Power in the First Place" Basically, he became a king in all but name. Got killed for that. His enemies were, at this point, were alright with him lording over them as he was merciful.
@@podroznikzpustkowi4805 Point still stands, Caesars reforms provided the populace and military much relief, all due to the upper class suffocating everybody else through their selfishness, ignorance and greed. Democracy, as we know it today, is something that only came about in France although its fruition is massively corrupt due to bourgeois decadence.
They tried many times, more than I can count. They all failed. The age of empires is over. The last remaining empires are collapsing. Now there is only """monopoly"""
The Roman Republic was the farthest thing from a democracy and Caesar simply increased the living standard in Rome and expanded political power to the Plebs while also creating a stable society. Caesar was the farthest ting from a tyrant, he was a savior that saved Rome from its fall for 400 years.
He secured absolute power for himself and made himself king in everything but name. The Roman empire was set to fail once the crisis of the third century began
I guess Emperor Augustus had no role in the saving to you, Ryan, or do you just attribute all the work to Julius Caesar because it spares you from having to think too much?
First of all its a bunch of shit, EmptyMan000, for the fact got a real name and you're some sort of minority with a fake name like mercadess or jicaboo. And Augustus was very important as he enacted many of Caesar's reforms and city enhancements like one of the famous canals which Augustus uses Pleb labor rather than slave labor which is something that Caesar advocated. You fucknut obviously i'm not going to publish my entire research and history of Julius Caesar's life because most people don't care.
Apparently that was also a grave insult to their honor, that he didn't even have any of them exiled. It was as if to say he thought so little of them they could never be a threat, and that got him killed.
@@pop5678eye that was still more merciful than any other victor of a war civil or otherwise in ancient times. Caesar genuinely wanted his victory to last (unlike Sulla) so he didn't go around purging his enemies in the hope that he could do better and they turned and murdered him. I always say Julius Caesar has the best qualities of a national leader Augustus while formidable lacked one thing (which kept him alive btw) which was caesar compassion
The scenes in the senate were some of the most visually appealing of the series. The scene with the senators standing in silence with Caesars dead body on the ground is one of the most stunning in the series imo
David Hutchinson Im not a fan of it to be honest. It is an incredibly vague speech. "I demand that you support me, those that who act against me are acting against the prosperity of the state. I will not inform you on how I intend to change the republic, here and now, you have to trust me".
@@steadyjumper3547 Spelling Julius with an I is not unusual. Heck the J would often make a "y" sound in some versions of latin. I suspect you use as soft C when pronouncing Caesar's name?
Just like all privileged rich populists, pretended he had the ear of the plebeians just to silence his rivals... Tell me, what real reforms Julius Caesar even proposed to make the poor more equal to the senate patricians?
What is it about Ciarán Hinds that is so utterly magnetic? He has a face you simply can't look away from. He's not just a scene stealer but an entire show stealer. HBO Rome wouldn't be the masterpiece it is without him.
Ciaran Hines makes a wonderful Caesar! He manages to convey the charisma, confidence and "X factor" that Caesar must have had (according to all accounts of him).
Cicero never wanted him killed. They were men in opposing factions (Cicero in the "pro-aristocratic" Conservative faction, Caesar in the populistic Reformative faction), they had a big gap between their views on how Rome would thrive, but there was mutual respect. Cicero, when the Pompeian army was defeated in Pharsalus, returned to Rome in order to pave the way for Caesar's rise to the senate (he never backed the dictatorship, btw), and to give the message that Rome's most valued orator (the one who exposed catilines conspiracy) gave legitimacy to Caesar. He refused to side with the conspirators
Brutus was still Caesar's supporter at this point. One of his most loyal. One account of the assassination says that Caesar's last words were an expression of disbelief that even Brutus, who he considered to be the most dependable of allies, had turned on him. It inspired the famous line in the play.
Divine acting by ciaran hines , the are moments that he dosent need to say a word, his facial expressions do all the work. acting at its best, this guy plays ceaser almost as james gandollfini plays tony soprano, maters of their craft.
The more you learn of Cicero, the more tragic this show gets for him, he was honestly the only honorable character in the show, compared to the others, all he wanted was the republic to be strong and united.
He was one of the urban slum-lords Caesar tried to rein in. He turned on Caesar with the rest of the oligarchs as soon as his actual material wealth was threatened.
@@glorgau The show didn't give Cicero justice. Cato leaned too hard in the other direction and was a primary reason Caesar crossed the Rubicon. Cicero was willing to deal with all sides so long as his beloved Republic held together.
Do you know what honor is? He ran away like a coward after killing the greatest man in roman history.. If all u do is talk and stir the republic to chaos all your life, ud better be prepared to die like a dog like he did..
Cicero lacked personal courage. He was very brave with his speeches... so long as he knew he was safe or someone else was reading them. I have a lot more respect for Cato, Cassius, and Brutus who at least were ready to put their own lives on the line and bloody their hands.
I admire how English actors totally hijacked the depiction of Roman and Greek legends on the screen. Because half the world understands English and watches English actors play Romans in English accents. Make a movie about Romans using Italian Americans like De Niro, Pacino, Stallone etc and the movie will probably flop brutally at the BO, despite its merits because people would feel that the actors aren’t Roman enough because of their lack of English accents
I like how he used just enough enthusiasm to get the motion adopted but not enough to incite opposition, he read the room perfectly and said what the room wanted to say, the way they wanted to say it... it is probably not dissimilar from what actually happened.
@@Nickkhan802 Yeah, was going to say that. If the army remained consisting of land owners (and if the rich men/Patricians wouldn't buy up all the land, leading to less and less landowners) then they would have remained loyal to the senate/Republic and would never march on Rome.
Pretty much. The Republic was rotting from within:. Nepotism and favoritism of course, but also economic mismanagement, general suffering among the urban poor, occasional really nasty bouts of rivalries turning into gang action on the streets, and the sheer burden of holding such a huge nation together. I think the Republic was doomed ... though I also think Caesar's actions gave it a shove.
there are a few incorrect depictions of the Senate: there were no rows of marble seats in a circle. just three tiers of platforms at both sides on which the senators placed their folding chairs ( carried in by a slave). The seat Ceasar is using may be at it's place in a household but not in the senate as he too had his own folding chair brought in. The folding chairs were a symbol of magistrature. Taking with the generals and proconsuls abrought to show that the one seating in it spoke with the autorithy of the Roman Republic. Another wrong picture is the toga's, when not hold in bplace with the left arm it would fall on the ground, it was an awkward piece of clothing, not wore for comfort but for dignity. however HB got one aspect right about Rome, nl how utterly dirty and crowded the city was. In spite of a sewer system, most thrah ended up on the street.
Antony stopping at the entrance and glaring at the senators for a few moments is a brilliant touch. He's sending a message to the Senators that force and military power is behind all the words they are about to hear, 'so don't you forget it'.
@Mythbluff, actually Cicero regarded Caesar as one of the greatest orators of his day, second indeed only to Cicero. You cannot use 'personal charisma' to sway a crowd.
@@pop5678eye it wasn't as simple he had won and he forgave them all anyone else would and did purge them right after they had a chance, and yet many of these people here still killed him.
In the next episodes: Anthony saves the Republic from being saved by Brutus. Octavian saves the Republic from becoming a Republic. Vorenus saves Pullo's son from being saved by Octavian to save the Republic from becoming a Republic. Pullo saves some peaches.
Wow, for being filmed over 2000 years ago the image quality is absolutely amazing! I assume the color has been added recently and might not be totally accurate but still, to see such a monumental historic moment is an honor.
Not when Caesar is alive. Antony, in the end, was too much of a bully to navigate Roman politics. As seen by how he was bested by a boy with little experience.
@Achintya Naithani Octavian wasn't a boy with little experience. He literally grew up in politic filled family. All his life, he knew how scheming works and getting men to rally behind you. He was a firebrand long before Anthony entered politics. While Anthony had some knowledge in warring, I would say he was an amateur compared to Octavian. That's why he and Cleopatra lost despite having all leverage.
I loved it in Caesar's letters when he said, any man seeking pardon shall receive it and their sins will be covered in scarlet, any man seeking to do harm will receive that which he seeks to give. EPIC
True peace of art and probably one of the best series of all time. Like every other good thing in life, it ended up sooner than it should. But it gives us hope that tv was not and maybe will not be only trash. Salute to Rome! :)
this makes a good contrast w/the similar speech Octavian/Augustus makes later in the series. In Octavian's version he's much more cynical and doesn't even pretend to share the stage w/any of his opponents.
"But I hold no grudges. And seek no revenge". Caesar said this because he was a very confident leader. The problem with poor leaders is that they are insecure and paranoid.
The artistic nature of the camera angles are spectacular. As Caesar rises from his chair, the sun illuminates the shot splendiferously. Bravo HBO!! for once they got it right .
Almost right: It was named after him, but not by him. It was renamed by the senate very soon after his death. I would imagine that during the instability, a lot of senators wanted to curry favor with Caesar's supporters by heaping honours upon him.
Many claimants, depending on how legitimacy is counted. The Russian Empire under the Tsars called themselves the "Third Rome". Greece with an Emperor and occupying Istanbul (Constantinople) could make some claim. The main families and many of the people of both Southern Italy and Sicily descend from and keep many of the customs of old Rome. After the empire turned "Christian" the Catholic Church modeled itself on the later administration and divisions created by Diocletian and Constantine and continues much of that today with dioceses and such. The Germans became the main constituents of the "Holy Roman Empire", which devolved into quite a mess; that had developed from Charlemagne's old empire, which included France and much of Italy at the time. Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, Romania and a few other countries and regions speak variants of Latin and could conceivably form the core of a new Roman polity. When the Turks were finally able to occupy Asia Minor, some of them saw themselves as heirs to "Rum". Egypt (excepting brief occupations) was a province of Rome for about six and a half centuries. Many other regions in Europe and around the Mediterranean were provinces for centuries before the thing broke apart. Take your pick. Thing is, is that Rome in the west fell because it basically HAD to fall. The corruption and oppression necessary to prop up a few "elites" was so nasty that barbarians and even brigands were preferable to continuing under such conditions. Careful for what you wish for.
Excuse me for that question, but I just don't know the whole movie: So who is the man speaking at 1:23 following? The setting is awesome, great lighting of the scene, one of the best I have seen. and great acting too. I wish to watch the whole thing!
Agreed. Caesar was a strong believer that the Consular term limit of one year inevitably caused only to short term actions being taken rather than longer term planning and strategy - and that the discontinuity of leadership was always going to hamper efficient implementation of policy.
conor henderson There was more corruption in the Roman Republic than there is in politics today in the US -- think politics in the Philippines, that's why both welcomed a "dictator".
@109898251757885538018 You're looking at Rome with an inability to see where it went so wrong. They saw Gauls, Germancis, and others as different "races" -- that gave them the right to murder, rob, rape, and enslave them. The Romans were vile in their dealings with other ethnic groups.
the cynic in me believed his mercy was a way to belittle his political opponents, make them feel like insects compared to him. Problem is, they knew that and they hated him even more, leading to his assassination.
I think it's because he lived through the reign of Sulla and was put on the proscription list to be killed for refusing to divorce Sulla's daughter, only surviving because he bribed his captors with an insane amount of money and had some senators convince sulla to pardon him
Intensified from zero. He had been proscribed by Sulla just for his Aunt Julia having married Gaius Marius, and only survived because he had enough friends among the Optimates. He knew how this destroyed the Romans, killing its best men for who relatives supported, and any who survived would eventually take vengeance on their enemies in turn, sometimes also Rome's best. "The Illogic of Waste, Mr. Spock" as Kirk put it.
On the contrary: Obama, GH Bush, GW Bush and Clinton all ignored laws they didn't want to uphold, such as immigration laws, as did Caesar. Trump faithfully executes the laws of the United States. We've had 27 years of Caesar. Trump has restored our Republic by restoring Rule of Law. The reprobates don't like it because now, as then, they grew wealthy on the corruption Trump is right. ;-)
lepantzeus1 Lmfao first of all, Caesar had no patience for people messing with Roman borders. He slaughtered Gauls left and right. He made the Veneti go extinct. Second, Obama has deported more immigrants than any president in US history. Finally, you complain about people growing wealthy on corruption when Trump is the very definition of that. Growing up with a silver spoon in his mouth, dodged the draft due to his connections, declared bankruptcy several times but kept his fortune, and has avoided paying taxes for years because he's "very smart." So that's Ancient History, Modern History, and Current Events you've fucked up, care to try again?
Gaul was already a Roman Province. Caesar looted and plundered people who were already Roman. That was illegal. Obama deported more illegal immigrants because he didn't secure the borders. You know neither current events or history. The ' corruption ' of Rome was the failure to enforce their own laws. Senators got rich on slaves and plunder and purchased votes with bread and circuses and outright bribes. The corrupted citizens refused to work which led to more need for slaves. Trump proposes we end wars for foreign oil and produce our own oil, we stop illegal immigration and the millions of out of work Americans take jobs we'll create by making our own goods, thus ending our ' bread & circus ' policy. There no excuse for Obama's 8 years of failure to uphold the laws, nor GH Bush's, GW Bush's and Clinton's. Trump is right. ;-)
True however several Roman Emperors were able to avoid Caesar's fate simply by acting quickly and efficiently and removing their enemies. Look at Septimus Severus for example, Caesar, like Severus could have easily eliminated his rivals within Rome because of his almost unanimous support from the plebs and the army.
It's incredibile how americans are fascinated about the Roman history (latin, architecture, lexicon, vocabulary) but they have despised Italians for centuries. The same Roman church was discriminated and It was Reagan that opened the First embassy in Rome in 1983.
There's always Exile and expropriation....stick'em on Crete. Let them scratch out a miserable existence...and don't forget to TAX THEM for police services and personal security....Yea, that's it. Security Services.
Where the show shortchanges itself is in its excessive simplification of history. For a people who loved liberty and despised monarchy, Caesar took first a 10 year dictatorship and then a perpetual dictatorship - this was a change from a classic emergency position of a 6 month term. Plus Caesar adopted monarchial powers and symbols such that there was great fear he would ultimately establish tyranny.
I love this show! My all-time favourite! One gripe I do have is though; Caesar was and is considered to be the greatest orator the senate had ever seen and perhaps in the history of the Roman Republic/Empire. They made Augustus as a better orator in my opinion on this show. Nobody doubts Augustus was a better politician but nobody was better than Caesar when it came to an audience! Be it with his soldiers, senators and common people.
I'm not sure that accurately reflects Caesar's reputation. He was known to be pretty concise and accurate to the point of being blunt (no pun intended), with the kind of manner that soldiers appreciated, but not necessarily a great orator like Cicero. That said, he differed in his political maneuvers from Octavian in that he always tried to amass power, no more, no less - if an opponent was certain to no longer oppose him, he would let them live and even treat them favorably. Octavian, on the other hand, outright betrayed people when it was convenient and showed himself to be rather vengeful, quite unlike his adopted father. I think many accounts about Caesar and Octavian's rhetoric are somewhat skewed by the fact that they were produced at a time when those two and their descendants held absolute power. Octavian, while educated, never entered legal practice or learned what was considered "true" oratory skill in ancient Rome.
Incitatus He was indeed a most astute orator, as his contemporaries have said, but he perhaps wasn't the greatest. Cicero once claimed that had he continued his oratorical classes under the tutelage of apollonius moy in rhodes, rather than focusing on honing his skills in other areas, military command especially. Then no man could've matched him in this regard. But the fact that wanted to be next to perfect in several areas, rather than perfect in one is just credit to the man he was, and the legacy he left.
Caesar was condemned by Sulla and barely survived. He loathed the man and didn't want to be compared to him. His policy of clemency was a deliberate effort to avoid all the proscriptions and purges of Sulla. I really think it could have succeeded if he had just declared that after ten years he would set aside the dictatorship and retire, as Sulla did. I suspect the Senate would have accepted that. It was the fear of Caesar wanting a crown that pushed Cassius and Brutus to act.
