June 2024: Moral Question, Warlords, AoM Date 

I'm not a Hippolover, and yet I watch this video -- I guess that makes me a Hippo-crite.

An interesting person to discuss the “Moral Question” with would be James Dash. He has taken a public stance which has affected his career in league, which some of his colleagues didn’t take. As he is also someone who is highly respected in the AoE2 community, I think his insight would be helpful and appropriate.

Nili monthly recaps are like seeing an old friend - a lovely surprise, and immediately feels just like old times, picking up where we left off. I think sportwashing is an important topic. Immorality continues when no one is brave enough to stand up for those who dont have a voice. Its like going to the school bully's party because cool kids will be there. We dont need it, and we can succeed without it.

Discuss Sportswashing, quite an important topic! Well done

Would 100% watch an aoe2 tournament in Saudi. IDGAF they have their culture we have ours.

I've always liked your discussions/thoughts on moral questions. However it might be better as a separate more extended RU-vid video, as it doesn't fit to WTF in my opinion. Still I'd love to hear your deep thoughts on these kind of questions.

The Chinese sponsoring a 3 villager tournament has something ironic to it

Moral question reminds me on the immortal political joke on the grand melee that made even DauT speechless

Super glad you’re still making these! I’ll be watching them as long as you’re making them.

Hey Nili I loved that you bring up moral questions. Lots of respect.

A line must definitely exist. With WC 2022 in Qatar I drew that line for myself. With esports I'd have to inform myself more to know, I didn't even know a thing happened in Grand Melee even though AoE is the one game I "know" stuff of. But there must always be a line, we cannot isolate.

That clip should be clip of the century!

As a big football fan, who completely ignored Qatar WC 2022, I would do the same with AoE2 in Saudi Arabia. And I think it is fair to say that Saudi Arabia violates human rights.

On the moral question... we all want a better world, i think. It is time for more people to face that they have to do inconvenient things and sacrificies to get there. But we must question our own bias about why we'd give some countries (usa, western europe) a free pass for current human rights abuses they create and sustain elsewhere, and not other countries (saudi arabia etc). Personally it would depend who is benefitting financially and reputationally, i think.

Good to hear from you again Nili 😊

Re told, re told, he told re told!!!! 🔥🍻🥳

Regarding Esport world cup but I want to remind co-organizer ESL/Faceit/Dreamhack(same company) is Saudi Arabian company owned by government(Public Investment Fund). If people have issue with world cup they shouldn't give free pass for ESL/Faceit/Dreamhack events hosted in NA and EU

Unfortunately, I fear that if AoE2 got a million dollar prize pool, which players are gonna refuse it ? It may be easier to resist the "devil" when you're comfortable financially. I would like to say that this is my personal moral line too, but I ended up watching Russia and Qatar World cups, so ...

It is a good thing that you talk about sportswashing! Agree with you!

The "Moral Question" is interesting and complex. And kind of important to put some thoughts into. It goes beyond sports, but let's keep it at sports for now. I think we should as ourselves of our intention and the most likely result of our action. If we don't watch the sport because of the bad things that are happening, what happens? We don't watch it, the event might get cancelled, but the bad things are still there. We just distanced ourselves but didn't actually do anything. Maybe we forget about the bad things alltogether, because we have nothing to do with it and it doesn't affect us anymore. If we watch it, the bad things also still happen. But we are confronted with it, because people talk about it. People say, we shouldn't watch it, because of the bad things. So we have to engage with the conversation or just black everything around it out. But we are aware of the bad things. Of course, these two stances are not entirely mutually exclusive, but they have something in common: Both don't actually do something about the bad things. If we really wanted to do something about the bad things, we have to engage with it, outside of the event. We have to care even if it doesn't affect us directly. So not watching the sports event and actually caring about the bad things are two different things. Just not watching it to feel morally superior but not actually doing something (donation, prayer, physical help etc.) is only focussed on one self, but not the problem. I can understand why people do it, to protect themselves and not having to engage in this difficult conversation. But there are many ways to handle it and no 'one fits all' solution. And such an event is of course a lot of sportswashing, but at the same time also a great opportunity to raise awareness and shed some light into dark areas. I for myself will watch some of the sports because I love the sport. But at the same time keep my eyes open for the bad things and possible ways I can help. I don't know if it's the best way to go about it. I'm aware I don't know a lot of things. Greetings

Evern though you're not that active anymore with streams and vid uploads I do appreciate the time you take to do this WTF, hope you'll continue doing it

adressing the moral question: iirc we already scratched that moral vs entertainment line when we had a tournament sponsored by a crypto currency cash grab mobile game in the past. of course the scale of a money scam and human right violations arent comparable at all, but it shows that there is a line somewhere that people are willing to cross. as a viewer i think that everyone has to make their own decision whether to watch something like that or not, but i also think you cant judge anyone for said decision.

How's life at the mirror factory?

I can't wait for AoM Retold to come out!

omg im literally on the floor laughing on daut casually saying misclick while viper looking very unimpressed but controlled his emotions like a champion!

Thanks Nili !!!

I was watching Daut when that “miss click “ happened 11 hilarious

Can't recommend your monthly recap enough, just awesome! Go Nili =) Also: I laughed sooo hard when Daut did that to Viper, I saw that live :D legendary. (is Red Bull not Sportswashing already?)

i can confirm, the mouse pad is great

One format i've been sitting on and not knowing how to share is Fast Double Elimination. It has fewer rounds than classic Double Elimination and also lets lower-bracket players keep a greater shot at winning the tournament, while still obviously having every upper bracket match count a lot. The main supported sizes are 16 and 64 players, but 32, 128, and 256 players also work. For 8 players this is equal to classic DE. For 16, 64, or 256 players: Round 1: Everyone is in the upper bracket, -> 1:1 ratio Round 2: Both brackets play, 1:1->1:2 Round 3: Both play, 1:2 -> 1:3 Round 4: Both play, 1:3 -> 1:4 Round 5: Lower bracket only, 1:4 -> 1:2 As long as there is more than 1 player in the upper bracket, repeat the both-both-lower format from rounds 3-5 to end up back at a 1:2 ratio. Then lower bracket finals, then grand finals. One idea for the grand finals is that the lower bracket winner has to get 4 wins first AND 5 wins first, the upper bracket winner has to get 4 wins first OR 5 wins first. For 8, 32, or 128 players: Round 1: Everyone is in the upper bracket, -> 1:1 ratio Round 2: Both brackets play, 1:1 -> 1:2 Round 3: Lower bracket only, 1:2- > 1:1 Round 4: Both play, 1:1->1:2 As long as there is more than 1 player in the upper bracket, repeat the same both-both-lower format to end up back at a 1:2 ratio. Then lower bracket finals, then grand finals.

About the question: I never been a hardcore football fan, but I use to follow a lot, some seasons watching a lot with some friends. I almost stopped watching football completely the moment they announced that the World Cup would be in Qatar. No more first division matches, no more European championships, no more national football (not even a minute of the World Cup itself). I watched some few matches in the Spanish second division since all those years (as I feel it is far enough). Now I am kind of watching the Euro, but I already lost almost all interest for football. Arguably the World Cup was not the only thing (things like playing the Spanish Supercup in Arabia, or how the richer clubs have more and more money), but it was the tipping point. So, if that would happen with AoE2, although the scene is not as corrupted by money as football is, at this point my response would be the same: I do not want to have anything to do with such thing (Whatever others do, I don't care, I am nobody to judge).

Saudi Arabia is already onto games. They heavily invest into studios, have their own shows and are invested in the ESL, one of the biggest esports tournament organizers. So its already happening. Just not directly with Age of Empires.

Moral question... support the players who can make a living from partaking in tournaments hosted by less than desirable entities...we all watch twitch and youtube right? Not the greatest companies by any stretch of the imagination.

About esport world cup I belive as viewers it is hard to take a meaningful stand as 1 single viewer isnt going to stop the "sport washing" but competitors pulling out creates a bigger story. I also understand esc pays the kind of money that makes it hard to say no and in many games they could become one of the main event of the year..

I wouldnt watch it but i would subscribe to every pro that doesnt go out of principle

Thank you so much for talking about the sportswashing. Really hoping the Aoe2 community stands up against this. I always see people saying that the Aoe2 community is amazing, so kind, inclusive etc. I hope we can prove that. This game stayed alive for 20 years without outrageous é-sports funding, we don't need it. That being said, that's easy for me to say, but some pro players might need financial support in that decision. I would be really glad to put some money in specifically to support players who don't participate though, I think many of us would. Surrounded by all the news of humans doing terrible things to each other and justifying it by any means necessary... Seeing just a small community of people stand by what's right over what's easy would be so special. It's so easy to look at the vast scale if injustice in the world, and think, does my little choice really matter..? And yes, it does, even if no one is watching. Just because making the right choice is small, or because it won't immediately change the world, doesn't mean it's not important. ❤️ I hope we'll all have the courage to make these difficult decisions.

What if Nili loses his orange shirt one day? I really hope he has a backup...

nili

the good thing w.r.t. women's rights in SA (morbid coincidence) is that esports already has a pretty shoddy track record in that department

I would definitely watch the Air tournament in a Esports wc. Football it's totally corrupt long time ago and anyone stop watching because of it.

About the moral question: I would watch them anyway because just ignoring it isn't making the situation better. If the tournament would be canceled and not take place at all, there would be no chance to mention all the violation that's happening or do a charity. Also it's a chance to get to know these countries in more detail. If they wouldn't sponsor these tournaments they would violate human rights anyway. I think getting the spotlight improves the situation in the long run. Image North Korea sponsoring a Starcraft 2 Tournament xD

We are not superior than Riyadh morally. We just feel like.

Isn't that daut/viper clip quite old? Definitely not this month!

what happened with the grand melee what did i miss?

Here's a moral question. What to do with people who claim they eat double as much meat to compensate for those who refuse to do it? I love when people want to ask moral questions when it hurts their morals but are not as much interested when its others. Solipsism in its purest nature.

I would watch it, for me it's about educating the public. Take their money but don't overlook their sins. If done well we could even use attempts at sportswashing to educate spectators who had no idea about what is happening

All the custom games keep crashing 😢

Is there a reason SaX is considered A-Tier with 20,000 prize versus Titan's league with a lower prize (17,000) for the top tier?

On top of an AOE2 player, I'm a League of Legends player and huge fan of the professional scene there. League is going to be included in the EWC this year (it's a terrible format, 8 team single elim bracket, teams don't even qualify, they are basically hand picked for qualifying for another international tournament that happened a month ago. It's a mess, and it at least makes it easier for me to not watch it. I could go on with this but I'll try to keep the comment as short as I can). Here I wanna separate 2 things: 1) As a fan, I absolutely hate it. Riot has done a lot of terrible things in the past, and still do in the present. But they have always waved the flag of inclusion for everyone and respected that. The fact they allowed this tournament to use League, despite women in Saudi Arabia having extremely violated human rights, despite homosexuality being illegal and having actual punishment (you can be sentenced to death for being gay there btw. They haven't done it yet, it's usually sentenced to several years in prison. But because there's no actual penal code and sentences are simply determined by the judge that has been hand picked by the royal family, it's not outside the possible outcomes), and many other horrible things that happen over there with minorities, is such a middle finger to everything they said they stand for all these years. 2) But from a business point of view, I understand why would someone accept it. Esports is going through a rough financial situation, the pandemic inflated revenue and now it popped and cuts have to be made. Sponsors are very hesitant to invest in esports, because it's a relatively new and unreliable market, and monetizing a lot of games is really hard without alienating players that can't afford to support it, which are the large majority of them. The Saudis just came in with a briefcase full of money, they don't ask for much (other than to not speak out on what happens in that country) and can put as much money as they want without pressure of returning investment because they aren't here to make a profit, they just wanna wash the image of their bloody hands to the outside world. So it's relatively "free" money that the scene desperately needs. With that said, AOE probably won't have the need to take the Saudi money. Microsoft doesn't actually run any tournaments, and since most tournaments are ran by members of the community (with few exceptions, like Red Bull), I don't see any need for EWC money in the scene. It would definitely help, but there's no need for it. The AOE scene has been steadly growing without much outside help or influence, so, at least for now, I don't see it happening for AOE. I certainly hope it doesn't, at least I know I said I wanted to make the comment short, but it's hard. I'm too passionate about esports and I truly want the best for the scene, and this whole EWC thing has been on my mind way too much because regardless of what happens, there's no good solution once this movement starts. The money is necessary for sustainability and growth, but the available money comes from bloody hands. It just sucks, no matter how you look at it

The general sentiment in the Dota 2 community is that taking Saudi money isn't really worse morally than the usual deluge of gambling sponsors who support so many teams and tournaments. We're also not ones to blindly support sponsors though, when the US Air Force sponsored an event recently they got boos from the audience whenever their banner was brought up on screen...

The line would be a good question. When not watching the turnament in Saudi Arabie, why watching the one financed by a Chinese? But maybe the line is between a privat sponsoring vs. a tournament sponsert by goverment. The issue with Qatar was also the circumstances of the human rights but also that infrastructure needed to be build and there is hardly any use of it now. Not even talking about the working conditions. Same for Saudi Arabia holding the Asian winter games. For esports you hardly need new infrastructure. On the other hand I am not that hardcore fan it is kind of easy to not watch a turnament like that.

The moral question is valid but I would understand internet personalities/esport personalities not wanting to opening discuss such things. Which I suppose is sad that people with big platforms cannot speak out openly about the bullshiza going on in the world without the backlash causing issues for them

For me I usually watch tournaments on the host channel, also because you get to hear many things along the story. Love memb, T90, nac, and all the others, but wouldn't identify with some adverse hosts...

About the moral question, I don't think you're reaching, it's a very pertinent question. I don't have an answer, but I think of an hypothetical scenario. If the USA, which invaded half the world and is currently financing a genocide, did an e-sports tournament, would anyone bat an eye?

Sportswashing is not something to overlook. AoE should really be the shining example that you don't need to sell out your morals in order to have great tournaments. Please never stop bringing stuff like this to our attention, Nili.

i would not watch the tournament in saudi arabia. i don't think it matches with the spirit of our scene.

Im surprised by no.mention of fox content

gg

So we watch China tournament and don't discuss moral implications of that?

Would not watch and maybe even contribute to events during the same time to spite it. Also, its pretty safe to say that its human right violations; some in individual cases (Kashoggi) and way more that are enshrined in law and judicial practice. Sports is and has always been connected to politics. And yes, its degrees, but degrees matter. The sport im following next to aoe2 is cycling, and most of the biggest teams there have already been bought by sportswashing countries, so there is no way around them anymore. Its good to start the debate ahead of time - before the offers - so we can draw a line.

For me, sportwashing is like saying I don't support Harry Potter because of things JK Rowling said at some point. The books are legendary and I like the whole franchise so I will support it. Same here, I love AoE so I'll support the event. It doesn't matter to me where the event is hosted. Sports/E-Sports are a way to take away the country national element. I'd say most gamers see themselves as one. It doesn't matter where you come from, we compete - same here.

I would not watch an event in Saudi Arabia because of the moral reasons. The Saudi government is obviously the main sponsor and benefits greatly from sports washing. The government is directly involved in notable human rights violations such as: 1. incredibly inhumane war against the country of Yemen which suffers greatly of starvation and disease as a result. 2. The infamous discrimination against women. Not only the restriction of public access but women live as second class citizens but also as slaves to their husbands. Spousal rape is legal and seeking divorce is much harder for women than men. Think of your friends, wifes, girlfriends, sisters, mothers and daughters. I’m sure the AoQ community would also like to speak on this. 3. Mass executions is a widespread practice for a wide range of convictions following incredibly unfair trials. 4 Mass Evictions are also common in areas where the government plans to build tourist accommodation and perhaps an esports arena where our players will play. 5 Mistreatment of migrant workers and the utter exploitation of their labour for the benefit of very few with barely any pay in return if at all. Migrant labour is used just like in Qatar to build these huge projects for tourism, “utopian cities” and sports fields. Forced to work at economic gunpoint. There is plenty which we don’t know yet and more that I haven’t listed. IMO it’s clear that Saudi Arabia has clear malicious intent and has no plan to stop the human rights violations. Ps: No beer en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi-led_intervention_in_the_Yemeni_civil_war www.securitycouncilreport.org/monthly-forecast/2024-05/yemen-66.php#:~:text=OCHA's%202024%20HRP%2C%20released%20in,and%20protracted%20conflict%2Dinduced%20displacement. www.amnesty.org.uk/saudi-arabia-human-rights-raif-badawi-king-salman www.state.gov/report/custom/a944d3578a/#:~:text=Women,spousal%20rape%20as%20a%20crime. www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/middle-east/saudi-arabia/report-saudi-arabia/

sportswashing is a very nuanced and complicated topic. One thing that is important to remember in the conversations is the difference between events being hosted in a country with a bad human rights record (like for instance, the us) vs. hosted BY a country/government organization of said country. It's not just that the Saudi government has a questionable human rights record, it's that the EWC is funded both directly by the sovereign wealth fund and has a lot of organizational capacity from ESL/Faceit, who also have financial ties to the sovereign wealth fund. It's important to correctly recognize that politics are messy and complicated, but that there is an important distinction between those two

The moral question is definitely important. Sportswashing is a thing and it keeps getting done because it works. Saudi Arabia is definitely a bad place for human rights unless you're a hetero male, and even then...

I personally wouldn't watch a saudi sponsored tournament. I already have some moral problems regarding red bull, but Saudi Arabia is on another level

I and many people I know did boycotted the last FIFA (*puke*) World Cup in Qatar, guess how happy I am to see the sports washing via advertisement and sponsorship at the UEFA (*puke*) Euro Cup? Though I can't boycott EC, as it's in Deutschland and everywhere.

On the moral question: I haven't missed a major AOE2 tournament in years, but I would not watch it if in Saudi Arabia.

Hi Nili, long-time subscriber and follower here. Just wanted to express my thoughts on the moral question here. I do think sports/esports needs to be kept separate from politics to a large degree. Cause otherwise, there may not be any countries fit to host/sponsor any events. As the central question is, who decides who's sportswashing? If you took a vote across the globe today, it is very likely that vast majority (going by UN votes) of the world population would agree or vote that US and Germany (to an extent) are aiding and abetting a genocide right infront of our eyes. Should the Aoe community perhaps boycott the next RBW if its held in Germany, and would YOU support the boycott or at least think that its "sportwashing"? US in particular certainly shouldn't be eligible to host/sponsor any tourneys if human rights violations are a consideration. Would you have these moral questions then? Perhaps its time North Americans and Europeans learn that the world doesn't revolve around them, and that the rest of the world have eyes and ears and a moral conscience too. And just to clarify, this is not in any way a justification of Saudi Arabia, imo there are certainly a lot of questions; and very valid questions too, regarding their human rights situation. I just think this "moral sense" perhaps should be applied fairly all across the board, or maybe nowhere.

Watch that-yes. Support it-no. I feel that aoe2de is too small to make a difference anyway. Each player and streamer can make their own decision, but people who want to play Pro can get some funding.

About the moral question: i think for most people, the moral question only appears to really matter for certain ethnicities, and only if it is convenient (not saying this is your case, Nili). Anyway, individual actions of boycott hardly have worked over the years. What really works is the union of workers against the system. But that takes a long, long time and effort.

Sportswashing = an interesting question you raise and covered well. Also interesting that you followed it up by talking about the ShenAiXie cup hosted in China - some would argue also a human rights offender country with their treatment of the Uyghur people in detention camps. I'm sure this comment will put me on a list somewhere lol. I guess its hosted with private money and not state-sponsored event, so you could definitely argue its a different scenario, also not a LAN event taking place in China so there's that.

Ofc you would support this. You don't support the organiser you support the players which have a chance to make a living . And if Saudi offers that. Then I'm all game. Not only for some but for all esport in general. Everyone is politically correct lately or even getting offended by anything other countries with different culture then ours (European) have. So if you support politics rather then players so .... Then that is unfair for them .

I love the discussion about sportswashing but it doesn't relate to aoe...yet

I am very confident to say that saudi arabia has no interest in AoE. Your assumption is redundant. There will be no AoE in EWC

i would NOT watch that. i also didn't watch the football world cup in Qatar. thanks for keeping those WTF vids coming, Nili. Hope you are doing fine.

Regarding the Moral Question: wouldn't it be hypocritical that we're all ok with Redbull promoting AoE? They are using sports to promote their unhealthy drinks. The same could be said about players joining Facebook. I understand that what the oil-states in Middle East do is terrible, sportswashing has already been happening in the community and nobody is speaking out against it.

The moral question thing isn't really an issue, especially in highly paid and competitive sports and e-sports. You can excuse both going and not going, I do not have a problem with either choice. What I HAVE got a problem with is the posturing and the virtue-signaling. Germany wet themselves a 100 times over Qatar's horrid treatment of LGBTQ+ people (which is true), but in the end when it came down to the money, fame and exposure, all they could muster was the hand-over-mouth gesture (as if we have to feel bad that these multi-millionaire ball kickers are being silence and victimized) Boo-fing-hoo.

On the moral question, the majority of us are watching on devices made from some minerals mined out of the ground by child slaves. Put together in forced labour factories, wareing clothes made by forced child workers. All of which will likely end up dumped in Africa to be burnt to small amounts of poisonous metals by more children. Most of us are also living in countries that have destroyed at least 3 other countries in the last 20 years, likely more. Saudi arabia is also doing this with our weapons, bought with money we gave them for oil. I don't think any of us living in our glass houses can throw any stones until we sort our own moral failings out. Like a serial killer judging a murderer in my opinion.

esport organizers are not responsible for their country's deed. players and audience only need to support the game and the event that's has nothing to do with the nationality of the host. extreme example: will you boycott a big tournament hosted by an American host, because the US has bomed basically almost everywhere in the middle east where oil is found? should we ban player/host/tournament from russia/israel, or any country that is in war state or is accused of human right violation? no way.

What did Qatar do that many western countries haven't done much worse but in other areas, why is Qatar suddenly a problem as if no country did something bad ever before? Are you gonna boycott the upcoming World Cup in USA? Also Nili, your own country is actively involved in supporting a genocide that starves little kids to death. Do you have any moral questions about that?

Saudi is a great country that is opening to the world

Would not support tournament happening in Saudi Arabia... even left my previous job cause of this shit. Hate to see $$$ being sufficient justification for moral compromises and this hypocrisy makes me vomit.

Yes I agree, sportswashing is a concern and we need to call it out. These sportswashing countries did NOTcreate culture of inclusivity. this culture was enabled by those countries which have led to this day of world wide love care / love /playing sports with each other. If it were upto these sportswashers, they would have tournament categories for different religions/casts

Thank you for bringing sportswashing to attention in the AoE community.

5:13 Yes I would watch a video about it since you didn't mention any of the "moral reasons" in this one. And yes, I would also watch the tournament because I usually don't think of some lame ass politics when I watch esports!

moral question: ban them as NK was isolated and there will no improvement in that country for ages... Invite sports... and further improvement and changes can happens or wont. Is it Okay to buy oil, but it is not to watch games? Really? I believe SA can transform into smth like UAE, it's just a long process. 5 years ago SA was liturally closed.

I would not watch, and would not support. And I really struggle with Vinch. I love his play, his personality etc. And I have watched him to support him personally and not punish him for others behaviour... But if a cup was organised in Russia, then I would boykot....

So you want to talk about the moral issue of hosting an event in Saudi Arabia but dont want to expound on why for even one example? "There are some things happening there that some people would call questionable". You cant create interesting content by being a fence-sitter, Nili. You might actually get some viewership for once if you had the balls to actually talk about something real rather than just skating around it. Please Id love to hear you explain to me why an event in Saudi Arabia is less reputable than one being held in China. Something tells me you arent informed enough to go further down that road. Not trying to be a dick but you are bringing things up you clearly have no knowledge of and it shows

First comment

Human rights violation… sorry but europeans are the last to talk about human rights and morals

Moral question. 😂😂 Its a sport event.