Lately Ive been reading a lot about the K&K and have noticed a lot of partial and mis-understandings about the nature of the gizmo. The piezo type pickup is a nearly pure capacitor which is by nature a hi pass device. When plugged in, the input resistance (impedance) sets the low roll off knee frequency. Higher input impedance moves the frequency lower (better bass) and lower impedance moves the knee up (less bass). Using an amp with, say a 1Meg input impedance will create a knee at some frequency determined by the capacitance of the pickup. IF an under saddle type had the same capacitance value as one of the three K&Ks they both would have the same knee frequency. since the K&K has 3 in parallel the capacitance is tripled and the knee moves down (better bass). And there is the summing of the three signals (louder). The physical size of the pickup is a large part of what determines the it's capacitance value. IF the Journeyman has more capacitance surface area it will have more capacitance, therefore a lower knee frequency (better bass). There's more... the coupling material used to attach the pickups can be solid (epoxy- superglue) or elastic (double stick) in nature which will form an acoustic filter between the wood and pickup. Think of transferring sound through rubber or a piece of glass. Which one would pass highs best? More solid, more highs would pass through. Making the journeyman a little less bright due to the elastic coupling of the double-stick. Food for thought... Howard
An amazing analysis of everything that goes into these contact pickups. Thank you for your time and wisdom Howard. I’m going to pin your excellent comment for others to learn from as I have.
Howard: Sorry to throw a stick in your analysis... But these are NOT capacitive pickups. They are piezoelectric, which means they actually generate voltage from displacement. Some of the other things you mentioned do count though, so there's that. Like the input impedance of the amp makes a difference in the sound quality. The adhesive used to attach them it's probably minimal. That conclusion comes from a different A/B comparison that someone else did. Overall, I liked the Journeyman discs better, but it could be that the K&K ones were put on with epoxy (as you pointed out), which stiffened the substrate that the quartz piezo discs are mounted on. Who knew?! K&K recommends using superglue, which only makes a thin layer, so it doesn't really stiffen the substrate. (Superglue isn't mechanically strong enough in such a thin layer.)
Yes we know they are very different guitars but it’s easy to hear which one sounds closer to an unplugged acoustic. The K&K sounds very much like an under saddle piezo, the journeytek sounds much more authentic.
I concur....but it would have been nice to hear the journeytek in the martin for a more accurate comparison but totally understand since he only has 1 d28.
Nice comparison....I think the main differences here are coming from the different body shapes and the guitars themselves. I'm hearing more mids (too much for me) in the Eastman but that can be eq'd out of course with a pre-amp.....I have the same issue with my OM body shape guitar with the K&K. However, when playing my D-18 (with k&k), less mids to start with. Seems like there may be little actual difference between the two pickups here, and more to do with the guitars themselves, which is what you want! With these pickups, every guitar should sound different!
Cool video Alex. The interesting thing about this style of pickup is that bridge played material, and density, as well as x brace Location plays a big role and how warm, bright, loud or even quiet The transducers will sound on any given guitar. Personally I have K&K in about five or six guitars, and it has never let me down. Yes a couple of the guitars may be closer in volume or overall tonal quality to each other, but ultimately I find that they sound a lot like themselves when plugged in. I have the system that has the transducers as well as the internal microphone, and it works very well for me playing live all the time.
😯 HOLY SMOKES!! Journey dominates! Much more natural sound of the actual guitar. K&K sounds much more quacky. Journey sounds less bass here, but that's partly due to it being on a smaller guitar. I know that Eastman well, and that's almost exactly what it sounds like unplugged! AMAZING!! Journey FTW. I would absolutely put that on the D-28 instead of the K&K.
K&K are much brighter, is that a bad thing? I don't know, for me the JT sounds better because are more balanced and warmer, maybe because it's installed on an OM that has a warmer tone and the k&k is installed on a HD28 that for shure has to be brighter and responsive... so maybe there's two excellent pickups, the only way to get the real comparison is wait to someone who put a K&K on a Eastman and a JT on a HD28.
I do not like bright piezo pickup because it needs an EQ to enhance the sound (my acoustic guitar installed with passive preamp without EQ). I had used under-saddle piezo, magnetic, then recently changed to JT 3 piezo pickup. It sounds the best among the pickups I have used. JT is much cheaper and affordable therefore I do not consider K&K mini. I am satisfy with my JT now.
Damn I’d buy the journey tech. Sounds way more natural like an acoustic guitar is supposed to sound, accurately captures that acoustic sound. I wish we could hear them on the same guitar though, I feel like the guitar that the K & K is using just has a better sound from the get go which gives it an unfair advantage. That journey tech lacks the unnatural high end that I hear in most piezos which is why I like it.
I think most of the difference is the adhesive. K&K uses super glue. It’s removable with nail polish remover and a razor blade. The tape will not transmit the highs as well, which may be an advantage in certain guitars.
Hi Alex, your reviews are great and your playing is amazing! I have used the K&K mini for years but have a new guitar that needs a pickup. Are you still using the Journey tel or have you found something you like better? Thanks for your time. John
i really dont know why majority of people prefer k&k .. in these comparison Journey sounds so natural an balanced , so you dont need another pickup to blend it...with k&k you need blend it with a mick or mag to sound more acoustic .
Hi Victor, I like your say. Blend piezo & magnetic is very difficult to do. I had tried this method before, as big electric impedance difference, finally I wasted my time. Also, the cost of paying 2 pickups is not cheap, why should I spend money but not go to shop to buy new guitar made by profesdional? Microphone pickup has strong feed back so limiting output volume. Recently I bought a Journey Tek EP001K & installed by myself. Superglue one pickup between strings 1 & 2, another pickup between 3 & 4, last pickup between 5 & 6, then all strings are balanced and natural. Strongly satisfy with it. I had used under-saddle piezo before, it produces thin & unpleasant tones. It made me sick.
these people are hearing the brightness of the k&k and consider the journey to be missing something in comparison. What I hear is 'quack', like an under saddle piezo - even if one of the better ones.
Thanks for the tip on the scotch double-sided tape, I was gonna go with Gorilla glue but you've swayed me to try the tape instead. I'm installing the Journeytek in my Baden this weekend and I think having the option to switch it out or reposition it in the future is smart.
The first time I installed a K&K I used glue. Big mistake and I'll never do it again. However, a K&K pickup comes with some special tape much thinner than regular double-sided (it's essentially just the adhesive between two sheets of protective paper). This gives a little bit more volume than Scotch double-sided and is also easier to remove. I don't know if it's possible to buy something like that separately though. Does anybody know?
I think preferences will determine which pickup you like better. To my ears, the K&K is brighter, sweeter and more articulate. It is also a little quieter. The JourneyTek is a smidgen louder and definitely has more bass. The bass has a small nylon sounding presence and almost touches on boominess, imo. I'm wondering what this would do to the sound, if you cranked up the volume in a club situation.. For the price difference, I can see why the JourneyTek might be preferred. For me, I'd take the K&K and just tweek the volume and, if needed, EQ a little.
Thx for your Demo, it is really good . I wonder how they can fit my old ovation guitar model 117 ( One that Glen Campbell used before) ? The sound of K& k can be more sharp ? Thx
That adhesive does make a huge difference in the response, and that’s why the JT has more warmth and bottom end I bet. Can’t say I prefer one over the other, only because I end up running a bunch of crap with any pickup lol. I think that with the tape, you may be more prone to feedback because of that bigger low end, and of course the volume difference.
Listening to the K&K, you'd never know you're listening to a dreadnought guitar. That pickup drastically changes the tone of the dreadnought Martin. It just doesn't make the guitar sound natural. I just bought the Journey pickup to go into my Oliver Mahogany Orangewood guitar. I play at church on stage with a band almost every week and have been using the cheap magnetic soundhole pickups. I'm excited to be able to plug in my guitar. I previously have installed a jjb 330a pickup in my other acoustic and was less than impressed with it, which is why I've been reluctant to try another transducer pickup in this guitar.
OK here's the thing , I don't think you are comparing the PU's ,you are comparing the guitars.It would be more accurate first recording the natural sound of the guitars by microphone then the sound of the PU's so we can hear wich of the 2 captured the primary acoustic sound the best.People are commenting the K&K sounds brighter but a Martin D28 has a bright character , I don't know the natural sound of the Eastman.Small comment on the Luthier using epoxy or contact glue ;it's the better thing to do. In a warmer envirement (live gigs..) the adhesive of the tape can start to melt causing the PU to drop. You did a great job.
Journey Tek EPOO1K is much cheaper than K&K Mini. I had a JT EP001K installed last week by myself. It is the best amongst other pickups (i.e. magnetic, dual piezo, under-saddle) I had tried on the same guitar. If I did not have a guitar before I would buy a new electric acoustic. I had already spent much money for pickups that wont be satisfied. JT is the best for my guitar.
To me, I found that the journey tech had a bit more of a mellow sounding tone. Maybe the K&K would sound good on naturally darker sounding instruments with a bit of EQ.
I read most of the comments and I’m extremely surprised. To my ears kk sounds much more elegant and close to the real microphone sound. I’ll definitely go for kk. Beautiful
I agree, the Journeytek sounded muted to me, were the K&K sounded clear and articulate. I can always EQ out high frequencies if they are too dominant, but to add clarity to a pickup that sounds muddy doesn't really work the same.
@@gorilkamil6514I agree,the K&K sounds so much alive and pure like an unplugged acoustic does, the Journey pickup sounds like a blanket has been stuffed in the guitars soundhole. Compressed ,muffled and uninspiring. Most of these comments seem to go in favour of the JourneyTek, you get what you pay for at the end of the day.
I dont think many people have two of the exact same model guitar. And they wouldn't sound the same if you did. So Its almost impossible to get an exact A/B... But at least you used 2 high end guitars. Really, I liked both. The martin was a tad bright... but it would really cut through in a room of banjos...😁 The Eastman sounded warmer, but almost too warm. But it was VERY close to the natural tone of those guitars. My suggestion is to do exactly what you did. Buy both. Use both. Some songs may require a softer mellow tone, others may lend better with the brighter tones. In either instance, you have the talent and ear to play either guitar for any situation... with a bit of eq. Also, that last clip of the Eastman really had some parlor tone... me like!
As sad as it is for me to say this, the Journey sounds terrible. It’s all mids with a strange “O” sound. I just had a K&K put in my Eastman E8OM and it sounds like shit. It’s brittle and harsh with no lows at all. I was hoping the Journey would sound better but it doesnt.
You may want to know what K&K says about installation. It sound generic enough to apply to the Journey, as well. I copied the following from the K&K instruction manual. Tape vs. Cyanoacrylate gel: For players who absolutely do not wish to use superglue on their guitar, we supply some very thin double-sided tape (for peel-and-stick attachment). Please note that using this method will result in about 30% loss of volume and tone quality, compared to the superglue mount. Epoxy vs. Cyanoacrylate gel: The superglue gel’s bond is easier to break than, for example, epoxy glue. This makes it possible to remove the pickups without damaging the wood... A word on tone: The entire golden underside of the pickup discs needs to be covered with superglue gel. Spread a generous amount all over the surface. Do not use just a drop in the center, as this will not distribute evenly. Please be aware that the amount of glue coverage is directly related to the signal output, balance, and sound. Careless and insufficient gluing is the number one cause of unsatisfactory sound for this pickup!
I had to install a K&K pure mini, the Journey Tek was so large 2X it would not even fit in my Eastman OM without over hang. The quality is also evident when comparing them. Journey Tek might work in a dreadnought but not in some smaller body guitars. After watching this the K&K sounds better anyway.
After listening to your video comparing the two guitars recorded by mics, I'd say that neither of these pickups sound good. Those guitars sounded good on the mics, they both sound meh on the pickups. I'm listening via an very good audio system. I have listened to great audio systems. I seen thousands of live performances. Nothing sounds like a good guitar up close and unamplified, preferably in a tight jam circle. I understand the desirability of pickups for stage performers, but I don't think it much matters which particular pickups they use. Speaking as an audience member, I'm always stoked when acoustic instruments are amplified with mics only, and minimal processing.
The Journey p/u is MUCH nicer sounding. It sounds much more like a true acoustic guitar sound. I just had a K&K installed in the Eastman you're playing in this video and it does not sound good. It is harsh, tiny, and very unpleasant sounding. This video is showing just why I should not have chosen the K&K.
Just getting a Journey installed in my Eastman E20p much prefer the sound compared to the K&K. I found the K&K too twangy. Just my thoughts. Thanks for the excellent comparison!
It would have been nice to hear both guitars recorded with a room mic just to hear what they sound like in the room as if I was standing next to you. Maybe The tape versus Apoxsee on the pick ups could cause a sound difference, who knows? The K&K sounds bright while the JourneyTek sounds deeper. Good video btw.
I read most of the favorable comments about the JTek. I still disagree. The Martin definitely sounds better. I would like to hear a comparison of the two guitars, without pickup amplification. Just play them thru a good Microphone, using same equipment for each style and sample. I would bet the Martin will outshine the Eastman, and, if so, the comparison you made would be negated. Also, try the to pickups on an identical guitar.
I wasn’t interested in demoing the pickups on the same guitar as needless installation and removal could damage the instrument. Here’s a video comparing both guitars through a good mic and preamp: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-DRL409cYm6A.html
nobody denies that the martin costing twice as much would outshine the eastman if both are recorded using a mic. But the point is that even with this advantage of being a better sounding guitar, the cheaper guitar with the journey pickup still sounds much better.
I think if you’re going to do that you might as well just use a mic. The advantage of a pickup over a mic is that it’s far less prone to feedback issues. JourneyTek makes a system to blend this their pickup with an internal mic. Fishman makes equipment to blend an under saddle with a mic. Either of those setups I think would sound better and be more useful than combining two pickups.
Well I listened on phone/lower quality speakers and preferred the JourneyTek. Then I listened on my Yamaha HS5 monitors and it's clear the winner is K&K. Obviously the JourneyTek being about 3 times cheaper also needs to be part of the equation. Thanks for this!
I have never seen figures for output impedance on piezo elements, but of course it matters. Kevin O´Connor writes in his book ´Tonnes of Tone´ that an under bridge piezo PU wants to look into a 10 Mohm preamp. That is 10 times as much as a normal guitar/bass amp has. I tried to build his simple J-Fet preamp with 10M input impedance, and that made my Seagull guitar sound much better. It gave much more low end, so maybe the JT has a lower output impedance than the K&K. When I measure my 2-channel K&K from ground to ring on the cable, I measure 912R, but I don´t know if that is the 3 elements in parallel.
I heard the L. R. Baggs anthem is the best.. Cost more but worth it.. I think out of the two-- K&K sounds best.. Guitarist are always trying to make a statement. The "Statement" sound should be bright and loud ( I don't mean volume ) K&K is my choice..
Thanks for your thoughts Sheldon! The K&K is definitely a bit brighter and maybe more useful for strummed chords in a mix for that reason. On single notes it tends to sound really thin to me though
@@AlexPriceMusician Or drill a second hole in the guitar and install the second system in it :)))) Kidding. But someone installed 3 pickups on his guitar. Just an idea :D
Edit: Nevermind, I found it: Tarrega, Lagrima. What is the piece you played during the classical section? I've heard it before but I don't know the name.
The K&K needs the K&K preamp. The coupling creates a real natural sound, quite full and not at all like the sound in the video. I also have a Journeytek. It is in one of my cheaper guitars. The K&K is the better pickup imo. In THIS video i prefer the JourneyTek.
HI! I particularly appreciated your video which helped me decide to purchase the journey pickup with the intention of having it mounted on my Taylor 110. But I have a doubt and I would like to kindly ask you something... after assembling it did you feel any difference about the does the guitar sound disconnected compared to how it was before installing the pickup? I'm asking you because I would absolutely like to preserve the original sound of the guitar.. Thank you very much!
The comparison is not realistic... Dreadnought vs dreadnought or concert vs concert, not dreadnought vs concert...the sound of the two guitars are very different.
What might be interesting is to compare the piezo pickup sound to the mic signal of each guitar. They are two very different guitars and shouldn't be compared. Plus the double-sided tape used on the Eastman probably cut the high frequency of the Journey Tech pickups. D28's are canons.
I'm impressed with the Journeytech. A friend just bought a East OO and put in a Journeytech and it sounds great. I may be switching out some of my active picckups to avoid issues with dead batteries and battery packs that come unglued and flop around.
The chinese transducers sound very similiar to the K&K. I bought the three transducer gold ones from aliexpress. I use a fishman mini...turn down the treble almost completely and get a pretty good sound. I do mix it with a magnetic/mic soundhole pick up at times....only takes a small amount of the transducer sound to brighten the magnetic up
I own a Journey Instruments F412 Parlor guitar that came with the EP001K already installed. I then picked up a used PRS SE Custom that didn't have electronics in it, so I purchased an EP001K and had a Luthier install it. He said he was curious to see how it compared to an actual K&K . . . When I picked up the guitar later in the week he said, "To be honest, compared to the K&K, I think the EP001K sounds darker. Maybe it has something to do with the pads themselves, but I think the K&K is just sounds better." I recently picked up a used Guild F-150 that doesn't have electronics and if I do put a pick-up in it, it will probably an actual K&K as opposed to the JourneyTek EP001K (which was actually developed by reverse-engineering the K & K).
Cool to hear someone else has had the same experience that I've had. It must be a mechanical thing like a pad inside. I can't imagine the piezo elements are any different.
@@AlexPriceMusician After listening to this demo again, I am now leaning toward the Journey (at half the price of the K & K). The K&K sounds muddy . . . The wiring on the K & K seems beefier but I like the sound of the Journey.
Thanks for this informative vidio. One thing that would have made the video outstanding was if you included a pure acoustic baseline comparison between the Martin and the Eastman, as I believe much of differences between the 2 pickup systems we are hearing is actually the differences between the guitars. Perhaps in a perfect world we could all afford multiple Martins, Eastman, or others, but still taking into account that each and every guitar will have its own unique sound and character. -E-
Thanks for the A/B demo, Alex, Everyone's got an opinion, even if it is wrong! LOL. Mine is the K&K sounded very tinny (thin?) probably would be helped with EQ, Many swear by them. The JTek Sounded heavy on low end but very sweet on the higher registers. It too could benefit from a good EQ. JTek also makes an internal preamp with a mic which adds something intriquing. I'm considering wiring in the JTek with Preamp/mic system into my 1997 Taylor 412-CE which has a Fishman Prefix Undersaddle Piezo, which sounds actually very good with very little Donald Duck, I think I can draw the 9v for the JTek Preamp/mic off the Fishman 9v battery, to avoid pulling strings off to change a battery, and wire both in the same EndPin together in parallel, that would give me the best of three worlds to balance into one. My friend says I'm pursuing the perfect sound but the audience won't know how good it could have sounded, but they will remember how good I sounded performing...Practice, Practice, Practice, until you can't get it wrong. Sage advice...
Epoxy? Ouch! Having been a woodworker for a long time, I would think the epoxy, since you need a thicker amount than superglue, would deaden the vibrations from the bridge. Which might be why they recommend superglue. I like the sound of the Journey Tek in this video, though on one of your other videos, I liked the KnK compared to the piezo.
Maybe the difference is also between the mellower Martin and more lively Eastman guitars sound and not as much the pickups. Those little stick on pickups all sound pretty much the same. They are what they are. In that respect the Journey for half the price is the better deal. The adhesive would also definitely have an effect on how they sound.
I put the contacts just behind the bridge. Most like them actually on the underside of the bridge but I decided to try on the underside of the top of the guitar and that sounded good.
Yeah I think the adhesive I used had an impact on the tone. I actually like the much warmer sound. The discs are the same size, honestly I’m almost sure they’re identical.
Both K&K and Journey Tek highly recommend either Super Glue GEL or Gorilla Glue GEL for the ultimate in tone, volume & sustain. Both companies state that although the 2-sided sticky tape can be used, it won't sound anywhere near as good vs the glue. So a guitarist really needs to question the permanent installment of either one of these pickup systems. I installed the Journey Tek EP001K in all 4 of my fine acoustic guitars using the glue, and I absolutely LOVE the sound with all 4 of my guitars. They sound incredibly authentic & natural through my Boss Acoustic Pro Singer amp.
I've installed at least 3 of the Journey and a guitar store put a K&K mini in my 12 string. All were done with superglue. Best I can tell, the Journey pickups sound every bit as good. I use mostly a bass amp with bass dialed down, and a Blackstar Sonnet 60 amp.
@@TallTreesClub Yep!!! I believe both companies are using the exact same transducers made in Germany. I was originally planning on buying & installing the K&K Pure Mini in all 4 of my acoustic's, until I discovered the Journey Tek EP001K. I had also just discovered that K&K raised their price 50%, up to $150. But the Journey Tek costs only $50. K&K's ridiculous 50% price hike is totally unjustified, and thanks to the Journey Tek, K&K is about to lose a lot of market share now. It only cost me $200 to install in all 4 of my acoustic's. If I had gone with the K&K, it would've cost me 6 HUNDRED. Even if K&K is using the highest quality Switch Craft jack, it still wouldn't justify the total cost of $150 each. Cheers.
@@LutherBuilds No "thinking" to it. Both companies have done extensive testing, and both state that the glue is superior for energy transfer to produce sound.
Hey! Thanks for the video. I got a Journey Tek and will install it on a Portuguese Guitar. I'd like to go with the tape but the one I just bought (similar to what you suggested but a different brand) doesn't seem strong enough. How did you do it? Did you put a lot of layers of this "tape"? I'd be really grateful to get some more info about it as I need to install the pickup tomorrow and I'm deciding if I can out the tape or If I´ll have to go with the super glue. Thanks a lot!
This is a sickener! In the UK the K&k mini is currently £174 and the Journey is £50, and I have the K&K on two of my guitars (although the K&Ks were only £100 when I got them), and the Journey is a clear winner to my ear. I can get really picky (and I will in a sec), but you can't get away from the sheer extent of the difference in clarity. So to be picky. These are very different guitars. However, that does not account for the fact that the Martin sounds kind of fuzzy across most of the tests, with less separation between the voices. The fixing of choice for the K&K is CA glue gel (although regular CA medium viscosity is as good), so double stick tape might account for some of the muffling on the Martin, but really, I can't see it making that much difference. As I recall, the Journey is German manufactured, so there shouldn't be a durability issue. I'm going for the Journey on my next guitar, and seriously considering replacing my K&Ks unless I hear different. I also have a Fishman Blend on my Martin HD35 and the Skysonic knockoff on my Yamaha LL16. The Skysonic not only sounds just as good at less than half the price, but also has a better design in that you can alter the pickup and minimic volumes separately. With the Fishman the volume is set and you just mix them. I wish you wouuld compare these 2. Finally, your picking across styles was impressive. Cheers
Hi Robert, thanks for your informative post. I've got a cheap Yamaha FS720 - which is just a spare but is good enough to gig if it had a reliable pick-up. The Fishman Sonitone in it is now blown so I might have a go with the Skysonic as a little low cost experiment. I'm in the UK Can I ask where you ordered yours from?
Good stuff Alex and appreciate the level to which you try to provide a valued comparison. I have an Eastman (actually I have 4) and I have a Eastman d? 12string - with all the overtones from a 12 string (and this baby has that shimmer for sure) which would you recommend? The K&K (which I have installed into an Eastman pch1 D) on you video sounds a bit microphonic in the sense that in one of the early sounds we can hear a thud when your arm it supressing against the guitar. But - it's minimanl. Honestly - the Journey sounds a little more muted - would that help with rounding out the tone on a 12 string IYO? Great video.
Yeah these body piezo sensors tend to pick up movement and stuff that like a bit, definitely more than an undersaddle. I think it’d work great on a 12-string provided you’re not in a super loud environment.
I just bought my first high priced guitar. I got an Alvarez/Yairi; the Fym66Hd. It sounds great and I can tell that I want to gig with it. I have a Martin GPC 13e that has a fishman pickup. I love the sound of the Martin but I hate that it doesn't sound great when plugged in. I'm not going to change the Fishman, that would be a pain. So, I might Journey Tek my Yairi. It scares me to mess with this all hand made work of art.
I’ve played a few Alvarez Yairi’s and they are incredible instruments. If there’s a pickup made to be a least disruptive as possible to high end instruments, it’s this piezo contact transducer design in my opinion. Congrats on the new instrument.
Something I didn't consider at the time of publishing this demo is the adhesive material that I used to mount the piezo elements. Read through the comments a bit and I think I may have gone into greater detail somewhere. Basically, I used a double-sided tape for this as opposed to epoxy as recommended. I think it warmed up the sound a bit.
