You attacked a martial art I used to live and love, as well as spent an exorbitant (and ultimately embarrassing) amount of time and money. I even became an instructor in a proprietary version of this system that was combined with WWII military combatives (W.E. Fairbairn and Rex Applegate stuff). And I've got to say, that while it hurt to watch you dissect and destroy this system and its insidious marketing, it was the bitter pill I swallowed long ago thay eventually led me back to my roots (muay thai, judo, and boxing). If it cannot be reasonably contested in competition, it is rarely worth training.
While I agree with a comments about sparring and pressure testing I find hard to believe that you couldn't find anything useful to incorporate in your background of judo Muay Thai and boxing ??
@@transcendentalarts5942 please don't misunderstand me, what I was able to truly take away from KFM was part mindset and a new perspective on martial art biomechanics. I still look back at my training fondly, especially the gauntlet drill (where you use the pensador through what is essentially a violent spirit tunnel of boxing padded hands). It's not so much that I couldn't add a anything to my base with KFM, but it was quite the opposite: my base added to KFM, not vice-versa.
You don’t make a competition with self defense systems because fighting for competition and fighting for your life are two different things. In self defense, there are moves that are inappropriate for a competition.
Headcannon Batman fighting style is the one used in the Arkham games where he punches people so hard that thunder erupts and bats manifest into existence
I've never been attacked by a martial artist. I have been sucker punched and jumped by tweakers. Cover your head and assume multiple attackers. I believe in it.
Unfortunately this is the point most people miss when evaluating KFM..they fail to realize it is not a system designed for ring or octagon competition..its sole pupose is to protect you from multiple attackers. That doesn't mean it doesn;t have value. The people that study KFM are not looking to compete in the ring
I trained defence lab about 5 years ago. I was disappointed in the lack of sparring and often thought that most of what I was being "taught" wouldn't work in real life. Also it was very expensive and I didn't feel it had a curriculum, I couldn't find any information online about what I should be doing to get my next "belt". I've seen other comments made that compare it to a pyramid scheme, the more you spend the more you are "taught". It's basically the scientology of martial arts. I quit and started training BJJ/MMA. For all the criticisms of BJJ at least it's pressure tested and I find I can control or escape from much bigger and stronger opponents and I've learnt to relax and be comfortable in uncomfortable positions!
To be honest involvin real life fights, if I can b 100% truthful, the best Art for street fights is a construction of philosophies fuels the basics of striking techniques, defense lab is good for its strikes to me except som of thm but, there’s alot of thngs tht this style do thts beneficial to b honest, everyMartial Art is a piece of a puzzle tht we hav to pay attention to
You didn't have contact sports in your Defense Lab? The curriculum is usually uploaded to Kajabi, and you can watch the video content of everything you need for your grade.
@@MarcosAG90 I haven’t taken defense lab, but I’ve studied under multiple martial arts, didn’t hav the money to attend classes right off back so all my lif as a kid I trained on all the basics I could learn, and sense I was bullied regularly I applied those techniques in fights, I noticed my results changed up aftr I startd to think a diff. way about fights. To me, it’s not about the techniques tht u apply it’s about ur mindset wen applyin thm, to me personally because I had success wit this method, wen I c defense lab, I c it’s gaps jus lik u and many othrs do, n I c a lot of the stuff tht wrks n dnt wrk, I’d use it for its transitions and strategies as an option, I would personally recommend it for those who already hav experience with street fights & in ring fights
I'm late but it's weird they do that when Andy was part of Keysi and yeah I took a class of keysi that was privileged to be taught by Justo and we sparred more than anything
To bad we live in a corrupted world. I sympathize with you but I would prefer to concentrate all my time and funds for a better word, hope for you the same 😋
As someone who really loves Keysi, and has done that and Defence Lab for a combined 3 years, I have to agree with this assessment. The point about how the drills seem to constantly divert from clinching was something I really felt when practicing it. I was seriously considering focussing on grappling even though I have no talent for it, because most of what I was learning made me feel like I should be going for the grapple/takedown/clinch, but I wasn't. I maintain that Keysi is better than most suspect martial arts. During training there's more of a focus on applying concepts extemporaneously rather than going through heavily rehearsed drills constantly. It's also really good exercise, and there's a big emphasis on being fit, especially if you want to be an instructor. I was able to convince my group to spar, but that's only slightly less bad than not sparring at all, so I make no excuses. I will say that while Keysi's still going, they seem to be trying to evolve the art a bit, making it more direct and reducing the amount of odd strikes to odd targets. Fuck Defence Lab though. Their curriculum is full of doing heavily rehearsed drills designed to make you feel like you can do it rather than actually teaching you anything. Plus some of the techniques range from magic super moves that supposedly allow you to strike everyone around you, and techniques that only really work if you bought the special self defence rings they sell. Andy Norman's a scum as fuck businessman.
Fuck Defence Lab. Andy Norman is a right piece of work from all I've been told by the wider team of Keysi and ex-KFM guys. I am not a fan of how he's used the official Defence Lab socials over the years with pictures of knives or reposting street fights with armchair criticsm either. It gives the whole fighting method a very poor reputation, so I'm unsurprised that few have time for him nowadays.
@@XD1999cable I've met two people who are K1 Kickboxers that swear that what they learned in Keysi saved their lives, but that's just hearsay, so make of that what you will. If your objective is defending yourself, like all combative arts really, do it alongside a more conventional, proven art like boxing or wrestling. In my humble opinion Keysi's worth it for the focus on biomechanics and the rather atypical topics that they cover, such as manouevering to get something beween you and the attacker, or escaping the floor when you've fallen. Like I said before as well, it's not one of those martial arts that de-emphasises fitness. If nothing else you absolutely will get fitter and stronger doing Keysi. Hope something there helps!
Mr King, I think the key point in your statement there is 'K1 Kickboxers'. Those gentleman already had an excellent delivery system in place, so they were quite capable of taking the concepts and techniques they learned in Keysi and making it work via that delivery system. Someone without that benefit may not be able to be quite so effective.
@@HeinrichKonig I just had an idea that this martial art is made ineffective to be like theather or even something actual batman who knows legal issues and public image would use since its mostly a defensive if it even is plus i also think against street punch of that era who don't really learn kickboxing or mma it could be 50% beliable in film the idea is its not defending yourself its more like showing that u are restraining urself like your covering yourself up in a ball like a kid so the other guy knows and the unconvensional strikes are part of it since it takes 10x more energy to think esp if the strike is targeting the most furthest
Just wanted to say Keysi has helped me in a real life situation, however the art in textbook is flawed as you have showed. With modification and mixed with other arts Keysi can be effective.
I like that he's saying that it lacks actual combat experience to work out the kinks. But the keysi method just needs to get rid of those useless unorthodox strikes, focus on the clinch a bit more, maybe add a few grappling moves.
@@eldirtyfaygo5395 Definitely. It has good fundamentals but lacks in execution. my father and I did Keysi as I went into my teens and we made sure to do actual sparring to make sure what we were doing would actually work. If you follow Keysi step for step, you will get hurt.
Every martial art is flawed..and every martial art has strong points..its like saying a tank is useless because, it doesn't function like a submarine, or an airplane
Thank you for posting a nicely researched analysis of these lesser known defence systems. I trained in keysi a few years ago. The fundamental concepts appeared to be sound. Protect the head from multiple attackers and counter fast and hard in close range. However, I left for the very reasons you have highlighted here. I have taken concepts from Keysi and other systems and built them into my own system tailor-made for me alone. One that suits my previous training, my body type, my strengths, and my weaknesses whilst being able to survive serious violence. I think this is the best possible system, one that suits you personally. Add what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own.
I never trained Keysi, but I've trained Kali. On the surface, I saw stuff that made sense to me that I've used in sparring. That said, I also have a background in kung fu , wrestling and some experience with muay thai and bjj. My base was basically kung fu, with Muay Thai guys and Boxers filling in my gaps. I'll explain stuff that I do see value in: 1. The elbow shields. 52 blocks uses them better, but they're also in Kali, Kung fu, old boxing and apache Indian combatives. Also, some of them show up in mma. They're not a gaurd, so you don't hang out in them. You throw them up to catch shots and switch. I've used something like the pensador fine, but I might like the George Foreman type crossblock more. I feel like it sets up punches better, and you do see that in more boxing and kickboxing. 2. Hand strikes that aren't punches. I was 145, and my sparring partner was 245. I'll quote him as saying, " I thought those hammerfists were stupid until you almost knocked me over with one. ". These are viscous strikes that blend well with punches to exploit angles and openings, as well as create them. They can also flow in a way punches can't, and they almost fire like a landmine off of an elbow shield. I've had a sparring partner I could almost never touch, the first time I hit his jaw was with a backhand hammerfist. My overall take is that , all the stuff that works in Keysi is already in every traditional martial art. It's also in older Muay Thai, Muay Boran etc. Its also in old bareknuckle boxing. Combat Sanda/ Sanshou actually is alot like kung fu just absorbed muay thai and went from there. So, I say use Muay Thai or boxing as a striking and make it dirty boxing.
Good points. I have a friend who developed a system that employs the helmet guard in conjunction with an aggressive entry aimed at literally jamming your shin and dropping your weight into your opponents leg. When it hits right it does feel like your leg could break. While I believe my friend's approach has some merit I see it as something to supplement those who already have a solid base in standup fight. These types of helmet guards have some use but they are something to use sparingly. And they are conducive for throwing those hammer fists you mentioned.
As a former student of Muay Thai (ancient style), I am confident that the helmet guard is is a good basic technique useful in the circumstance where we are blocking and counterattacking continuously. It works well for its real use. I want to see the u-tuber sparring with a skilled helmet-guard user. I want to prove whether his hypothesis is correct or not. P.S. I was in some accidental street fighting scenarios, where applications of the techniques seen in this VDO (claimed useless or impractical) were useful as against and injuring the opponents. It is the reason why I want to see him fight not just say to disregard or decline these fighting methods. (I am not that aggressive, but I just want to see him prove the things he speaks out which seem to be on his credible imagination.)
KFM was a project that was disbanded in court before it ever got close to competition. They (Andy Norman & Justo Diego) were working on the possibility of the response to an outside stimulus being an automatic/instinctual response. It's not our fault the knuckleheads' got rich quick from movie fight choreography than split up, creating a situation where Andy had to create "shapes" because he legally couldn't use the pensador and Justo being clueless about how to communicate his ideas. I believe you are calling this one too early. I live in Florida and would happily spar and train with anyone interested in pressure testing.
You seem to be experienced with these systems. Is there more value in training one or the other for a while? I was thinking of flying over to Sevilla this summer (I don't live too far away). Not looking for the one and only system but effective nuggets I could blend in for the goal of purely self defense (trained in mma krav and spear for a long time).
The Keysi system works when you've got Batman's protective armor. The bullet-resistant wrist gauntlets alone, help to compensate for poorly executed strikes, parries, locks, and blocks.
No, it doesn't. If you are wearing Kevlar it makes no sense to have a defensive fighting style, Ben Affleck has a much netter fighting style for someone in mostly bullet resistant armor.
@@user-73a Bale batman's style was decided on because they wanted to be able to have Batman attacked by multiple people but have people believe it's realistic. Batfleck was specifically a power fantasy with the idea that he could just tank and block every hit. Different intentions that both make sense
@WangFire bale was wearing Kevlar and none of those guys could hurt him but he still used the Casey fighting style which was defensive, he actually made no sense. Holding Ras AL Guul with one arm over a cliff was the definition of power fantasy.
KFM and Defense Lab are not complete systems. They are more like combat methods for specific situations. KFM, for example is good for melee situations when space is limited. Fighting is too dynamic and unpredictable to stick to one system. Thats why I believe in Bruce Lee's philosophy of "no way as way". Use KFM/Defense lab when its useful, judo when it makes sense, aikido , boxing etc. Don't get boxed in by one style/art or method.
It's too gimmicky but it has potential. The method was created by bouncers and is supposed to be good against multiple goes, the attempt of actually using it in a real fight goes out the window with those fancy strikes. Simplicity is the bread and butter, the thinking man stance is cool tho.
It wasn't created by bouncers. It was created by a small guy who regularly got jumped while working in a mine. Small person, multiple attackers, confined space. Not saying this adds efficacy to the system, i stick to boxing, and traditional karate. @eldirtyfaygo5395
Yeah, I started out as a huge Keysi fan, but quickly realized that it was not very viable as a fighting option, especially once I started learning Muay Thai. That being said, I do use some moves from Keysi, as I personally feel like they could be good transitions into strong opportunities to do some damage. Like the set up for a basic Keysi jab, but with a Muay Thai, or better yet, an MMA stance. I feel like they were on to something with the whole striking with the inside of the elbow approach. But maybe that's just me. Overall, I much more prefer Muay Thai and Hapkido these days.
I'd not heard of this Keysi system until I saw this video. Like most people, I've always been concerned about my vulnerability whenever I'm in a situation in which I'm operating a steam locomotive. Thanks to your video I may just have discovered the perfect self defence system for me!
The main benefit of keysi training is practicing in a ton of awkward positions and learning how to protect yourself in them. So you’ll learn how to fight while against a wall, sitting down, even laying on the ground. So when you’re put into these positions that you will be put in you have a bag of tricks prepared.
I want to address a few key points made in this video with a little bit of context and perspective of my own. I'll preface by saying that I was a student of a particular school made up of ex-KFM (pre-split) instructors made primilarly for both self-defence and also active combat which was officially sanctioned by the British Combat Association instead of Keysi or Defence Lab proper. Now, I trained with Justo twice in my tenure as a student of this martial art, and I do largely agree with many of the points raised here. Firstly, your comment on the Pensador, or thinking man stance as it's also known, certainly comes from a point of practicality. You're right, holding up a half guard is essentially useless when you're not moving your head, too. I can't speak for Keysi and Defence Lab offical circulums, but in the school I trained at, we not only sparred against partners with more than just pad drills, but were taught to move our heads and bodies away from active strikes as they come in. The marketing for Keysi is incredibly poor, and to be honest it always has been, so I feel like this system does look pretty bad when viewed from the outside looking in with this in mind. My instructor was a black belt in BJJ as well as a black grade in Keysi so he would teach students groundwork and grappling from BJJ which made our training effective in an MMA environment, of which I did frequently compete in fights and exhibitions, but I cannot speak for either Justo or Andy Norman's week-to-week sessions. I'll tell you this much, I attended two seminars held by Justo, one in 2017 and one in 2019, in the UK and found a lot of his teachings to be lacking in certain areas. While grapples and strikes were mine, too much emphasis was placed on flashier, and wider moves than you would typically see in the cage, and from what I can tell Andy Norman is definitely guilty of this too. I haven't met the man, but I do know he holds a poor semi-professional fit record from what I've been able to find online, making it quite laughable that he attempted to teach his brand of KFM to MMA fighters and have that go up in smoke, especially when many of KFM's specific tricks are banned from active competition. The point of my comment is to give some context but also reiterate one core belief here. I personally gained a lot of knowledge and picked up some neat tricks that I still use in my day-to-day life incorporating Keysi, however, I think on its own, it's a system which has too many gaps to actively replace something more established. As I touched upon above, I trained in a specialist school from an Ex-KFM and BJJ black belt, so our gradings were focused on melding both fighting styles where appropriate for a more well-rounded fighting system. Some parts of Keysi are certainly useful, especially in a street fight, with the multi-attacker angle of protecting your head incredibly important. The pensador position when used properly with body mechanics and pre-emptive striking has saved on more than one occassion, but, again, I cannot speak for how Defence Lab or Keysi schools approach such things. Just thought I'd offer my experience as someone who was immersed in this world from the beginning of 2017 and the end of 2019. Were I to take up a combat sport now as COVID has winned down, I'd probably follow in my instructor's footsteps and take up BJJ or traditional JJ if I could find it. Thanks for bringing this obscure martial art into the masses, and I hope my words don't come off as dismissive. All the best.
I really like your input here. I studied Ryute Renmei Kempo Karate which uses a lot of joint locks and pressure points. My mentor was my father in law (too disabled by agent orange to teach it now). Let me explain something before anyone shits on my experience. My mentor pressure tested this style often because he worked as a police officer and had to defend himself quite often. He also taught police various techniques that compliment their work. What he taught works very, very well. Landing a hit on him was a very difficult thing to do and I've witnessed many people try. The problem is that one is very skilled at 6th Dan like him. Not a low training level like me. I never went as far as I should have and regret it every day. Ryute takes a very long time to become good at. The techniques are amazing and use the body against itself (hard to counter someone who just put you in an arm lock and made you eat dirt face down). I can make the stuff work and have used it to defend myself on several occasions but my lack of finished training makes me less effective in areas such as timing against punches, etc. Enter KFM. I found the pensador very effective at closing distance and not all that unlike some kickboxing defenses. I noticed that it creates great openings for hammer hands, back fists, knife hands, trapping, joint locks, clenches, elbows, etc but the way that KFM or DL chooses to teach what to do when in position for those openings is lackluster. This video actually corrects much of these missed chances. Why would I strike the thigh when I can just hammer the face or knife hand the side of the neck while slapping the ear and possibly knocking my opponent out or make them lose balance? There is even one video that shows them punching the bottom of a foot when they push a guy against a wall and lift his leg. Why? don't know. And why push him against the wall when you can use him as a body shield against others, choke him out, joint lock and break or submit him, etc. why let go of the control you gained? I, like you Lady Plagues, have found use for some of what they offer and it changed my perception of what is possible. The pensador can really close the distance and get me where I want to be, in close to control joints and go for strong, tight strikes like how I studied from peek a boo boxing. I feel this video tries to give them credit where due but forgot that even the smallest useful tool is still a useful tool if it works for you.
@@bravenkirok3142 Thank you for sharing your insight. That sounds like a very interesting journey that you've gone through to get to where you are. It's really refreshing to hear about someone who has lived it.
@@bravenkirok3142 I get it you give them credit for that I was wondering on ur thoughts on the spear system which i thought was basically the same thing
oof, alright i'll argue with yall. Since people are defending Keysi to the death here. Yes, keysi can be useful in a street fight, because most people (wait for it) can't fight. There are plenty of things that will work in street fights because people (wait for it) suck at fighting. BUT, that isn't the problem, the problem is what is optimal vs nonoptimal. The points made at 6:35 are excellent points and people who defend keysi need to seriously consider what this guy is saying. If you used Keysi in a street fight vs an actual fighter, you will get that guard run through and you'll be on your ass confused. Go train in an actually good mma gym (not a hobby mma gym), it's very very humbling.
I want to know from a keysi practicianer to tell me how they handle upper cut combos. Lol From that clip the keysi guy block the first punch. expecting leaning to the left, like he's some sort of magnet hoping the punch attach to him. I been to alot kyokushin tournaments no way in hell that would happen.
@MrFreak9.1.1 "even if you "win" you go to jail or get sued if you crack their skull or back" - Thats why i don't get in fights with random people "If you don't knock the person out with the first strike then you're most likely losing if you're the one with the broken hands." - I'm not hitting them anywhere but the jaw, and my hand wont break on their jaw because i don't have bitch hands lol "This is reality dude. Not the ring." - oof
@MrFreak9.1.1 hahaha wtf. Dude go do mma. Bro to Bro. Just drop all the "Made for street fights" shit and become a beast in the warrior's sport. If you're really worried about your safety, get a concealed carry permit.
Look for the video clip of Fresh Prince Of Bel Air when Will and Carlton get into a fight and Carlton's hands are glued to his head. It looks like he's using this....
I'm 52 and done training since 16. I'm really impressed with what you're saying as it reflects much of what's taken me 36 years to understand. Well done for this channel.
The boxing guard with gloves is also specific to fighting with gloves and only punches allowed, as soon as you reduce the size of the gloves and allow kicks and wrestling the guard drastically changes. Though it's still nothing like Keysi so your point is still valid.
I do agree that sparring is the most important part of any martial art. I've seen guys use Keysi in a fight and be effective, but they had a strong boxing base.
Defence lab, I remember a few years ago they were being promoted as the best self defence system ever. But just took a few videos to see it most likely won’t work ...
This is a channel that needs to exist. Not just this video, but all of them. They tell a controversial truth. The only reason you’ll get back lash is because most of what your saying comes down to “you need skill, sparring, and athleticism” and no one wants to hear that. Most people think they know mystic king fu from watching movies, are out of shape, and don’t want to get punched in the face. The fantasy that a couple fancy moves will win any fight is wrong. Dedication and hard work over a long period of time is right, but that’s the problem. People want instant gratification and you’re telling them that most of what they believe in is myth; secretly they know it in the back of their minds but hearing it makes them defensive and puts them in a state of denial. The truth hurts, and can be demoralizing. But anyone serious about learning martial arts need to strip away the BS, hear the unpleasant truth, and then ask themselves honestly, “do I have the dedication to put in years of work to learn to fight through physical training and sparring with qualified people, or do I want to watch Steven Segal movies and believe myself to be a Aikido Master?”
I have a varied background in martial arts - I have trained in eskrima for 30 years and have instructor grades in 2 styles; I am also a brown belt in BJJ. I used to have a student who was a Keysi instructor. I would sometimes joke "if you are interviewed by the police, after an altercation, play down any fight training - except you, you tell them "I do the same stuff as batman!"" The thing was though, that he was pretty good and was quite good when it came to sparring. So eventually (about 8 years ago) went to a seminar with Justo. He is a force of nature. I guess he is now in his early 60s and definitely not the sort of person you would want to get in a fight with - he has bad intentions in his fists, and his background suggests that he has had plenty of fights and lived to tell the tale. They have some great situational training - another time I went to a seminar with Justo in a night club (during the day/when it was closed), where the focus was on getting up off the floor (plenty of low tables to trip over). In fact, I am pretty clear that almost anyone with an open mind (karate, MMA, kickboxing, judo) could learn some useful stuff, just by attending a seminar and then implementing the drills in their normal training. Justo's English is limited, but he is more than capable of getting his message across in person. Then, a couple of years ago I came across an advert for the DL winter camp, which was being held near to me. I went. OMG! It is like being part of a cult. Andy Norman started with something like this: "Remember last year, we showed you the "Terminator" (a combination of strikes from Pensador - they don't call it Pensador though), well this year we've gone one better, here's the T-1000!" which was basically the same combination, with a couple of shots added on at the end. Lots of hi5s and shout outs etc One thing I definitely did not like was their stick fighting - they would take a normal 28" rattan stick and hold it while in Pensador (so the stick ran down their shoulder/back) and then let other students smash sticks down on them. Of course all the strikes were delivered to the middle of the stick (quite a few were broken by the end of the day) but no one ever hit to the hand (thereby mashing the stationary hand against the side of the skull). DL seems to me like they have tried to build an easily marketable system that can be sold via video downloads and a pyramid of schools, all funneling money back to the top. On the plus side, they all looked very bright in their green shirts and everyone got a reasonable workout.
Keysi was developed for short ranged defence, and yes it was developed by a boy that worked in the mines. It was not originally made for competition but for real life survival. Guards commenly used in boxing doesnt work as well without gloves and more importantly no padding on your hands, one explanation for the guard of Keysi.
Justo usually hard to get a hold of. Andy Norman usually is pretty cool about it. Check out 2 part interview we did a few years ago. First time Andy came out of hiding after a while. Part1 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RlPcZOTQqck.html and part 2 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-v55__pRNVJo.html
Any system is better than no system, especially the basics (how to throw a punch, how to block a hook, etc). Its when you allow your ego to tell you that a system is a be all end all that you run into trouble.
my opinion on self defense classes, is that those moves are low percentage moves to add to your fighting skills. just like in bjj yu learn low percentage moves to add them to your grappling skills. the pensador is a shitty guard in the middle of a fight, but it's actually a pretty good first instinct when you get totally caught off guard by someone suddenly grabbing and punching you from your blind spot, while you're not wearing gloves that could allow you to turtle into a tight boxing guard. once you're done taking those first few surprise hits, that guard sucks again.
I am not a self defense professional but out of curiosity I've watched innumerable YT videos espousing various concepts, doctrines, and methodologies of practical, individual, personal self defense. Here's the essence of what I've discerned from most of those. Have you ever heard of, "Occum's Theorem"? What the theorem promulgated is essentially the best solutions to complex problems are usually the simplest and most straightforward. Some YT self defense videos proposed technical solutions that appeared effective and indeed flashy but at the expense of being complicated or complex, requiring great muscle motor skill, coordination, and a superb memory. More, it required your assailant react in the manner required by the methodology to work. That is why other YT self defense videos insisted on executing the simplest, most instinctive human reactions that did not require years of dedicated intense training to develop the instinctive motor reactions. That is why sometimes I see persons like this congenial, helpful host encouraging the study of the basic human combative arts, boxing and wrestling, while not implying you need to reach athletic championship status. For example, Krav Maga in its origin was exactly that, eschewing complex and complicated defense methodologies relying on instinctive human muscle motor skills and movements. You weren't meant to become a Shaolin master, but you would be able to react and deal against one or more neighborhood toughs rushing out from a dark alley on the mean streets of 1930s Prague, Budapest, Warsaw, Riga, Tallin to the corner of your eye glance of a hostile native surreptitiously pulling out a wicked curved knife behind you on the dusty streets of a city in Palestine, 1948. In all, you never have time to contemplate a fancy, complex defense response to this type of attack or that attack. The old black and white photos of Krav Maga practitioners back in the 40s and 50s didn't show dojo, nice Judo uniforms, or athletes. The photos showed everyday citizens, young adults to older people, almost all skinny, non-muscular people, wearing their everyday clothing, practicing outdoors on sand pits or grass under the watchful eyes of their instructors, also dressed in regular clothing. No one was there to become a champion fighter. People didn't want a shiv shoved into their kidney or back while trying to carve out a new nation.
The Keysi guard was what my grandad called the Armageddon block as in “I’m a geddin’ it from all sides!” Say that in an Irish accent 😂 But seriously he taught that to me as a passing technique-to pass a punch, get to grappling range, or a way to cover if you’re attacked by several people and you’re trying to get away You NEVER stay in that position (BTW my grandad was an ex WW2 commando and Irish gypsy)
You mentioned how well some of this could flow into clinch game, that's something alot of people in dog brothers fights do. Use Kali/ Silat striking to make someone shell up, or open up their gaurd ( especially after a boxing or kickboxing entry) and then go right into MT clinch game.
Honestly, keysi does have potential. However, as you said, I would try to implement striking to the ribs or upper cut the chin rather thank punch someones bicep. All in all, I do like the idea of defending, closing the distance, and striking with the elbows.
I called the Defence Lab guys to check out their stuff. They talked about an instructor development program, said they are more closely related to silat than MMA and clearly stated that they were really in it to make money.
So what you're saying is that KFM & DL are basically like Zumba: lots of glam and slick marketing, and will teach you a few moves, but won't actually make you good at fighting (or dancing, in Zumba's case). I'm actually looking to get into martial arts and stumbled across some DL videos, thanks for setting me straight. I think I'll look at a more traditional one like Karate or JKD.
So I actually was doing the defense labs instructor program, didn't get far but I'll get to that in a sec. I did it for about 6 or 9 months. I learned there's two types of defense labs, the stuff the public sees and the stuff the person learning the program sees. The 3 belt levels I made it to I liked. Obviously it was only basics and most people teach basics well since it is hard to screw up teaching basics. Any way, I liked the structure, it was taught in a way that made since and I incorporated some things and I still use them. I think there's things that are worth exploring in defense labs. Sadly, money lack of training partner and my karate instructor constantly belittling me for doing something other than his art led to me quitting. That all be said, DL has gotten more gimmicky and mcdojoy to the point that even though there are things I really like, I wouldn't invest in reentering the program. That being said, I wouldn't take the opportunity to go to their yearly seminar in Spain because the seminar is fairly cheap and I've never been to Spain. In conclusion, while I certainly think there's is a lot worth exploring in dl, it isn't worth the money to learn the whole program.
"Isn't worth tge money to learn the whole program" Well...I don't know dna, but you sound like it really worth it, and maybe you just quit for different angles of social pressure xD. Don't restrain. What I suggest is, if you have the money, go re enter in, reach the black belt (whatever they call) and teach YOUR WAY, keeping what works for you, and omitting or developing what is lacking there. Tell you what, I'm from kickboxing, and first kickboxing I learned it was chinese (SanDa), and after a while they erased knee (well.. and elbow, and shoulder, and grappling, previously) techniques. BUT TODAY I STILL TEACH IT xD, I just change the order so advanced practicioner learn knees for a wider combat situation, and beginners learn kickboxing for tournament situations. That's it, you can adapt it if you like it 👍.
My 2c: some basic, straightforward defensive elbow techniques shown in KFM work, if they are delivered from a solid bare knuckle boxing/kickboxing stance, just because they were pressure tested in such disciplines. Gracie Jiu Jitsu also teaches some elbow-based defensive “wedge” stance, to protect yourself from barrages of punches. Elbow strikes work if you deliver them in MT/Lethwei fashion. So what works in Keysi does so because it was elaborated by other disciplines, whereas Keysi’s own elaboration is of dubious utility as it is never really pressure-tested.
elbow strikes are great for a Gracie/BJJ practicioner. But if you don't have world class grappling....its dangerous to play around at elbow range with someone larger or stronger as you will wind up on the ground in no time.
These type of videos always crack me up. Who is to say honestly what works and what doesn’t? I’ve trained five different styles over 36 years and IMO anyone who claims that a style “doesn’t work” either never took the style or isn’t seeing the bigger picture. Every style has strong points and weak points. Some styles have more strong than weak, or vice versa. But there isn’t a single style out there that “doesn’t work.”
idk. My go to's in a Self-Defense situation are Defence Lab & Silat. I trained a long time in Silat and some time in DL. I joke in my efforts to learn Silat I became a JKD/Kali instructor because when I started in Silat the JKD/Kali guys were the only ones teaching Silat. I saw DL and I saw it easily translated to Silat and most importantly Multiple Opponents. When I was into street fights the majority of my opponents were 2, 3, even 4 guys and I took them out. Even have the arrest records to prove it (I had a hard time getting into law enforcement because of Street Fighting Arrests). Now at my age I'm very comfortable with Self-Defense situations due to my training in DL & Silat. I don't fight no more. I don't use MA, Thai, JKD/Kali, for self-defense. I only use Silat/DL for self-defense situations. I use it in situations were I can articulate in a court of law my Self-Defense response(s). Any possible confrontation, I say I'm sorry/excuse me/I apologize, and move on. They put me or my loved one in a corner, I use my go to's Silat/DL and defend myself & loved ones. Had the opportunity to apply Silat as a bouncer for 9 yrs, throughout my LE career, and DL my last 2 yrs working as a police officer for 20yrs. Only thing I can knock about any Martial Art/Self-Defense System is does it work against Multiple-Opponents, does it provide responses/answers to Multiple-Opponents?? And curling up in a ball in a corner is not an answer. Especially when the turds have weapons or your loved ones need protection. Cause in my world/life since the age of 13 all I've predominately faced is multiple-opponents. Silat/Defence Lab works for me. To each their own.
This is the issue I think people have to realize; the stuff you train for and do in the street are similar in some ways but very different in others to training for an MMA fight. If you take someone who's trained a great deal for real world street violence and put em in a fight against a trained amateur or professional fighter and they lose, they've lost a fight against a single person in a sanctioned fight with rules. This doesn't mean MMA is useless on the street, in fact I'd argue training MMA is an outstanding way to build a solid foundation for self defence. You then take that foundation you built training MMA and pour all the skills knowledge, perception and tactics for dealing with street violence on top of that foundation, because while you're kicking one guys ass his buddy could come up behind you and knife you in the back, and you'll need to learn and train into muscle memory and proprioception the correct responses, hell. The ability to anticipate this dirtbag tactic by studying how dirtbags will dirtbag on the street. So to me it's not that it's 'MMA vs JKD/Silat/DL/Kali', it's 'yes' to training all of them and knowing what tactics work best in which scenario. I dislike the 'Defence Lab is useless' commentary because to me it's like saying "socket wrenches are useless". In certain situations sure, but you have multiple tools in your tool box so you can deal with different situations. Not everything can be fixed with a hammer and a saw. Similarly, sometimes an "oh fuck!" Shape or frame might keep you from being knocked the fuck out so you can get to your Thai kick and single leg takedown.
@@qqlf207 was that comment aimed at me, or the original post? Technically speaking, all comments are made up, so I don't understand what you mean by that.
Other than the first point about the guard being ineffective vs the high guard, I agree with everything else. There are different guards based on if the martial art is designed for gloves or not. Compare old boxing guards where gloves/wraps are not used vs modern boxing guards where the glove is used as part of the guard. The old guards prioritized protected against body blows since bare knuckles to the head/forehead would result in broken hands. That guard would look silly with boxing gloves on and makes no sense. The high guard without boxing gloves is less effective than WITH gloves, and has a higher skill ceiling than the double forearm blocks. The promotion material does look very fishy, but the guard concept makes sense for a close quarters situation, or to close the distance to get into the clinch. Seems like the guard concept is a simpler way for grapplers to check off the standup requirement to get to clinch range. Probably not enough to count as a complete martial art.
Keysi/Defense Lab does look good in Jack Reacher and The Dark Knight trilogy, but I've always had my doubts about its validity and applicability in real life.
Someone I used to know was constantly sharing their defence lab posts. Someone once once asked if they were doing mma (because they wear rash guards and fight shorts) and they described it as mma but better 😂 It wasn’t appreciated when I pointed out that what he did totally prepared him for being attacked by multiple attackers armed with striking pads…
As someone who currently studies this I do also get frustrated with lack of stress testing. However we do stress test and when we do it makes a lot of sense for the environment it was built for. It cannot be compared to sport/competition. Completely different world. As for the pensador position it was not a creation, it's what lots of people instinctively do in the street when they are overwhelmed and can't think straight, so it's life/death, fight/flight programming (I've seen enough chaotic police videos to confirm). As for the mma comparison, there's actually a lot of positions they use all the time. Pensador being chief among them when the other guy is battering them. That 'better' position seems to vanish. DL is not without flaws, and I agree the training methodology needs work but no system is perfect. It does however function well for it's surroundings. It would not work in mma, which is clearly a sport. The coaches are responsible for crafting great practioners. If a system is not understood then it will be taught/learned poorly.
This guy doesn't understand that the guard is created for the purpose of defending against armed opponents as well, because it's not made for the "ring" it's made for the streets. If you get hit on your forehead with a metal pole, you are dead. Your forearms can tank it, however. This guy just doesn't understand the context of this martial art. It's for practical defense. Same with the slip. This guy doesn't understand that moving around and being unpredictable, flexible and slippery is what Keysi is all about. He says slipping while moving is wasted movement, but for Keysi, it's what makes you stay on your feet. The moment you stop moving, you are getting body slammed to the ground by 3 opponents and you die. He even says targeting legs or arms of your opponent is a waste of time, but he doesn't understand, that you rarely have a good opportunity to hit anything vital in a street fight. It's chaotic, it's loud, it's unpredictable, it's often facing several people at once in a confined space. If you learn how to effectively hit legs and arms, you will be landing a lot of hits. If you only ever learn to aim at vitals, you are only ever going to hit noobs, an average street fighter with a proper guard will never allow you to hit him, and once again, you are gonna get overwhelmed and you'll die. This guy simply doesn't understand Keysi.
@@mitromney completely agree. The slip conversation is a big give away he doesn't understand or even tried to. We want damage at all times. If they punch my elbow. My elbow wins every time. It's not a slip, it's a reaction and retaliation.
@@mitromney No you simply don't understand fighting at all. No one who says "da streets" can fight and doesn't fight at all. Everyone knows this, that's why you bullshido clowns are so funny to laugh at.
Keep on doing it. I've want to know about my flaws in my own martial arts that I've gotten very skill at it, like judo (brown belt over 30 years ago), savate, jeet kune do, muay thai, panantukan, boxing some 52 blocks and wrestling. And I"m at 55. So surprise me and ignore what others who are bitter and pissed that they didn't grow and evolved as a martial artist, besides wasting time and money. As Bruce Lee says...take what you know and dumped what you don't need.
I didn't watch the whole video yet so maybe you have mention this. But consider tools within this art as special tactics but you can use under certain circumstances. Adapt them to fit with what you do , if you want to flow into grappling, then grapple with it. I find many of the techniques useful under certain the circumstances.
I've got no skin in this game; I don't train Keysi or Defence Lab, never have. From researching Andy Norman's Defence Lab however, he talks about how the shapes in his system are supposed to be used in street violence scenarios when you are caught off guard by a single attacker and need something to cover your head in the front & side, and, if this guy who's attacked you has friends who are jumping in to attack from the sides. it's a last resort, 'oh fuck' response. There's a guy named Tony Blauer who's SPEAR system does something very similar, with putting up a guard defence identical to what I trained, which was Progressive JKD from Paul Vunak. I trained under Paul Vunak and one of his Sr. Instructors for a number of years, they used something called the R.A.T. system, and one of the initial beginning options when you are attacked is to use an elbow or knee destruction from Filipino Martial Arts, which is where Keysi/DL evolved their shapes from. I feel more comfortable utilizing the RAT against untrained shitheads on the street. But that's just my personal preference. unless you are testing Defence Lab stuff in a scenario that is full contact, with partners simulating a multiple attacker situation on the street, in a club, or a bar, etc. where the attack is an 'ambush', I don't think you are testing it correctly. just my observations. Maybe it'd still fail and suck in that scenario. Maybe it'd work really, really well, like the RAT or the SPEAR does. These are just my thoughts after researching it.
I feel like the "oh fuck" positions are a little disingenuous. Putting your arms over your head is a very basic human panic response. Trying to sell it as a feature of the art seems dodgy. And from experience, I can say that training for what to do in the "worst case scenario" is not nearly as useful as training to avoid that scenario with all your might. Because once you're at that much of a disadvantage, you're probably fucked.
@@institches2750 The fact that it's instinctive is why it's used and why it works. It's just a matter of taking the flinch response and training in some adjustments, so it's more effective than simply covering your head blindly as you bend over.
Paul Vunak is essentially teaching the modified Wing Chun that Bruce Lee developed working with Danny INsanto (spelling?). Its a fairly good martial art with a lot of potential...but Paul mainly gets by with his awesome speed and unusual explosiveness. For the average person, JKD is probably no better...or even as good as basic boxing. I know...I also studied the same stuff myself for 15 years and eventually gave it up for my old kickboxing stuff from when I was a kid. Keep it simple stupid...a good policy for me since I'm stupid....and JKD is NOT simple.
I agree with pretty much everything but, if you are training to fight multiple opponents, you don't want to drill into your head that you need to grab hold of someone or take the fight to the ground. This has been tested in real street-fighting, where people who do this, at the wrong time, get seriously injured or killed. If you have never tested something, you don't know what works and what doesn't. Here's the thing, if you aren't actively, fighting multiple opponents who want to kill you, then it is hard to learn how. But if you've made bad life choices. Opportunity knocks. The survivors are the ones who have tested what works and what doesn't. If I am fighting three guys and two of them are content to be ineffective. What do you think happens as soon as I grab one of them? They try yo pull me off of their friend. Now I am grabbed by people who weren't grappling, and I've just made the fight significantly more dangerous. When you are training people to fight multiple opponents and especially with new students, you don't want to drill in the bad habit of grabbing or taking the fight to the ground. Also, anyone claiming to train street-fighting who doesn't use full contact sparing is probably a con-artist. And that is a big red flag.
No one trains to fight multiple opponents because tis dumb anyway. There is no fighting multiple opponents there's getting badly injured and losing. You aren't Mike Tyson in his prime or Alex Pereira who could knock a few doods out in a row with one punch. You're an average(likely below average actually) rando who can't fight. You aren't winning vs multiple opponents, learn how to fight one person well and go from there. No one is waiting around to gank you like in the movies
@@SM-nz9ff Before I got into these kinds of fights. I was sixteen, 6'5" 400lbs, with more then a decade of training and experience. I started fighting when I was four. I was not a good person at the time. I rarely had less then 500 dollars in my pocket. And, yes, there were multiple occasions where people were waiting around to gank me. That's actually a real thing and not just for movies. So, yes, if that is your chosen lifestyle, you may want some training in how to deal with the situations you are going to find yourself in. So, yes, there are people who both train and are trained to fight multiple opponents. That is also a real thing. I am curious, what are your fighting qualifications? I get that a person can be really skilled at a similar thing and think that that makes them an expert at other, similar, things. Contrary to popular belief, there a lot of differences between fighting 1 person and fighting 4. Just because you are good at one does not mean you are going to be good at the other. I've seen people with 15+ years of martial arts training lose to complete amateurs because they didn't know what they were doing and making stupid mistakes. There is no honor lost in admitting that you don't know what you are doing. There is also no honor lost if you fail at doing something you have never been trained to do. Yes, I could win those fights but I also had a lot of training and a lot of experience.
@@maxschlegel3566 Oh I was using the universal you and not you specifically. But no I mean when multiple people attack you they don't just wait to attack they all get in and actually jump you. OFC there are people who will wait in ambush or actually jump you. You misunderstood basically my whole comment, after all you yourself used the universal "you" in your OP.... For me though I trained Wado Ryu as a kid until I wrestled in High School for 4 years and took Ishin Ryu/Judo while in the military. Was a USAF TACP until I was wounded in combat in Ramadi but obviously that comes with weapons training among many other trainings. Since then I been doing MMA at the Miletich gym here. So in total that's 30 years since I'm getting boomer age now at 40. You're 6'5" I'm 5'4" so my little ass is pullin out the strap if multiple people attack me.
@@SM-nz9ff Yes, people who attack in groups do try to attack as a group. However, they are rarely so organized that there isn't some stagger. A fight against 4 guys might only last 2-3 seconds. That's, half a second each, maybe a little more. If I do get surrounded, I have a fairly, reliable, technique for exchanging places with one of my opponents. That puts everybody in front of me, creates confusion and chaos. And, creates that stagger again, if it doesn't create the opportunity to run/hide. I am out of that lifestyle. I got tired of dealing with dumb _____. But back then, I refused to train anybody who wasn't already trained. Street-fighting isn't a martial art, it's a type of fight. It is specialized training for a specific type of situation. But you still need something to build on.
Maybe I can give a relatively unbiased view of defence lab. I was a 1-3 amateur boxer about 20 years ago, and recently in covid lockdowns restarted boxing but also felt free to explore other styles, such as self defence without gloves. One thing I found while sparring is that with gloves and with gloves off is very different. The standard boxing covers work when both you and your opponent are gloved up but when I tried sparring with mma gloves I was getting hit a lot more. There were too many gaps in the standard hand up to your eyebrows block for an un-gloved hand to slip into. I then found defence lab a few weeks ago and was intrigued enough to buy a couple of their workshops. I found that it worked well to guard my head in close range, and there are covers they don't show on RU-vid that cover your body as well (basically the similar drop your elbow to hips, but with your other elbow in a Dracula guard across your face). I know 1-3 as a record isn't impressive but hopefully that's enough for me to be able to know what's usable and what isn't. The hammerfists etc that come out of the guard is quite useful as well. This is from someone who has taken two of their workshops and is relatively unbiased, but I'm definitely intrigued enough to learn DL stuff more.
Let us know how it goes. That said, an MMA striking class will probably give you answers for blocking with small gloves that are cheaper and more effective than DL.
Thanks buddy. What would you recommend? I've tried crazy monkey which is Thai based and was used in older days mma (rampage Jackson etc) but not really up to date on the current mma scene as I follow boxing more.
7 месяцев назад
I was just watching a reel about KFM, and at first glance I thought "ok, this is interesting" so I looked for the full video about it, and I started noticing some weird stuff, I thought "maybe I'm not getting it right" so I paused the video and I tried to emulate the movement and then I realized "this is leaving me exposed in a lot of way, and I can't throw punches comfortably" so I look for videos of it being used in real situations, I couldn't find any, but I did find your video and you said everything I was questioning about it... I'm not that trained/experienced so I don't know how it can fool anyone, it takes a couple of minutes to realize it doesn't work as it is intended btw, nice video
There is no super secret sh it out there just waiting to come out. It's all already out and world wide. Every country does MMA now and we already know what works and what doesn't. No reason to even get interested at a first glace at some or any bullshit otherwise. Its good on you what you did I just honestly don't even understand what people don't' understand about the basic fact I put. There is nothing new coming, this has already been done and tested for many decades now world wide across all systems. There is no question about what works and what doesn't at this point. Its called MMA - boxing, kick boxing/muay thai, wrestling, basic subs. And really if you just practice your cross, hook, upper cut, calf kick, front kick, rear naked choke, triangle, single/double leg take down you're golden for most anything you should ever get into unless you're some sort of jackass trying to fight everyone. You're only going to be doing basics anyway and in even there only what you train the most will come out. May as well do 3 punches 3 kicks 3 subs and basic takedowns. Keep it simple keep it crisp and you'll be better served. I'm 40 years old now and we been training since we were 12 and all those I listed are all the techniques I ever seen my friends or myself have to do in a street fight and even now my son as well.
My kickboxing coach during college also taught KFM in a separate class. I wound up also assisting the coach with teaching. Like a lot of "combative" styles like Krav Maga, the benefits of the martial art comes down to training methods over specific techniques. By that i mean, they may have either strange looking techniques, or techniques that aren't breaking any new grounds (use kicks from karate or muay thai, punches from boxing etc) But they applied it to pressure testing. Theyd do things like just have 3 on one fights to see how fast you can escape. They have two guys fight in a closet. They have sparring with the lights turned off. Unique situations to really try to make a compitent martial art and make him fight in situations that arent normal. I list it under "auxiliary" styles. What i mean, if youre already compitent at fighting, this is good to learn a few tricks from. But by itself it falls short. KFM is legit, or as legit as any style can be, but you just have to find a place that spars and resists when you do self defense techniques. ... As i have worked some things into my tool box of training methods, they work ALOT of techniques off the clinch, and by jamming strikes and attacks. They also have some takedowns and fighting from vulnerable positions ive seen only rarely worked in other places. (Best one that comes to mind is, how to use the badguy to climb up to your feet after being knocked down.) If Krav is supposed to teach you how to fight in a 10x10 room with furniture in the way, KFM is about fighting in elevators, cars, phone booths, closets, and entryways. Again i wouldnt say its a "complete" system but it does take a deep dive into a range most people only think about as "clinch work" when it can actually be a lot more indepth.
I like your analysis, as a life long martial artist who started back at Kim's Karate back in the 90s and progressed through the ages boxing, kickboxing, and my personal favorite for the last 15 years BJJ because I prefer not to to get punched in the face anymore, this is a really refreshing perspective, like a better Jack Slack. Keep it up I'll keep watching!
I see many elements of the fighting style lack be implicated into your overall arsenal. Elbow block coming from a jab or hook from your opponent to their rib cage right underneath the armpit, well grabbing the other shoulder that is free prohibiting, and he leverage from the open arm being able to throw anything with any power behind it. My father is grandmaster he always used to tell everyone it’s not the style it’s the man behind it.
@@SM-nz9ff well it’s not actually theory because I fought for over 15 years. So I know these things work because I use them on people myself. My hands have been used for way more than just typing my friend
So at 4:43 what exactly would he be attacking that is in the air? I practice Eskrima and have only put my sticks that high to guard an attack or come down with over head strikes, he looks like an angry bird or hornet is trying to attack him.
This video is wrong in many ways I have actually use this fighting method in real situations. Although I should mention I have used keysi with the combination of peekaboo boxing. This looks faking in video but in a real situation it actually work and this is also used in military.
Hey bro, I go to Defense Lab :) they do exist!! They actually have a huge emphasis in combat sports. In my gym, they offer 2 hours of Muay Thai per day, three hours of boxing per week, three of BJJ, three of intro to MMA, and three of DNA, and they are now introducing a new JKD program where they include DNA together with Thai, etc etc. The guy doing it is the head of the Thai program for DL so I don't expect any BS :) It's great!!
The "guard" is actually really close to the Bajiquan forward elbow strike. You close the distance and keep your arms up so your striking by basically ramming yourself into the opponent while covering yourself at the same time. However you cover yourself in a way that you can still see what's going on while RAMMING yourself into your target. You usually follow-up that initial strike with other strikes for insurance. Also Bajiquan is much older and has been proven in combat. We're talking as old as the late Qing Dynasty and we're also gonna mention a Martial artist names Li Shu Wen who never hit his opponent more than once (This is because the opponent being hit died and there are MANY accounts of his duels). His best known student was a man named Liu Yun Qiao who was china's most successful espionage agent...Of course despite Li Shu Wen being a legendary martial artist, he was a sociopath
Yep Li Shu Wen perfected his art.They call godspear Li, his technique with a staff and of course spear was legendary.The man could kill a fly stock on some glue paper on a glass window without breaking it using a thrusting technique. And as you said he was a sociopath, no wife no children only the desire and passion for kung fu.Being undefeated and only draw once against another martial artist makes you boost that quote of "I don't know what it means to hit the same man twice". The families of the victims could have him poisoned.There two master's of kung fu who had been poisoned, 1 is master Hua from the Jin Woo school 2 is master Li Shu Wen from the bajiquan schools. Sorry for long history lesson.✌️🙏
Hey there, good points in some topics, I honestly believe based on the comments that you were more toxic on your analysis but not that bad, now as a Defence Lab instructor I would say this, a lot of self defense systems are based on the moments and being done as fast as possible with the threat not necessarily going the distance, is neutralize and move on or run or 'survive', now, is not a 'cult' move to ask you to train with the man himself cause it will open your eyes to new stuff and things that you may have look over, couple of points here that I believe make a real adult healthy argument, we'll see how it goes lol 😉. 1. Your knowledge on the system is not much, if I may say so, like watching couple of videos won't do justice to fully understand a system, specially in martial arts. 2. Never confuse a 'drill' whether is a 'free flow' drill or a 'multiple beat drill' with reality or sparring, Kali, Silat guys to name a few have this type of drills and NO they are not realistic they are to train multiple beats (punches, kicks, slashes, counters, whatever) to get your more fluent on the moves and more familiar with system knowing perfectly well that in reality you may only land two if not one, so the drill is to get you loose and see what fits you, great thing about DL (something I cannot say about Keysi) is that DL is not close minded, if you have X or Y experience please by all means use it, we're not a 'this is all your need' type of systems, I think I can speak by all instructors when is say that. 3. We do have sparring, 1 v 1, 2 on 1 and so on, now the thing is this, 1 v 1 like in a more traditional way, is going to look a bit different you may adopt more of a regular 'guard' or stance cause at the end the 'thinking man (pensador)' is a stance when everything collapses and go south fast and is a survival reaction like in that 'fight or flight' moment, so at least when I've done sparring and is a 1 vs 1, I do apologize not having the videos at hand (probably where you're going to based your entire point around) but it does look more traditional, more traditional punches, regular kicks, why? Cause DL is like CQC, for close spaces when you go the distance just like in Thai you use the jabs and crosses since are your 'long distance' weapons, even in Thai you are not using elbows if the distance is not proper, is common sense. 4. I've got to a friend's MMA school, mind you he's a Jiu-jitsu black belt, BJJ blue belt, life long Thai fighter and when we have sparred we have used some shaping to block and such but for the most part it looks 'more traditional' sparring but when we get close is when the hammer fists and elbows have proven to be effective and useful, he has called me to his school couple of different times to do some training and ground and pound principles cause he has found some value on it, cause DL works a lot better when things get tighter, so I think at the end is a what a martial artist do, takes what useful reject what is not, paraphrased but a Bruce Lee quote, like I don't reject Karate cause they used couple of blocks that are not useful, I cannot based my entire analysis off of one thing that I don't feel 'helps' also you look Karate fights or sparring it looks waaaaay different than when you see them doing katas and stuff, not to say they're the same cause I know they're not, what I'm saying is that looks different but that doesn't mean is useless. 5. Sparring cannot be the end all be all cause I've seen some boxing sparring where in the first 10 seconds one of the practitioners is done and he couldn't apply any techniques or principles, that doesn't mean boxing sucks, (mind you I love boxing) so the point I'm trying to get across is that sparring is great but is not the end all be all (apologies if the phrase is not correct, English not my native language). 6. You shouldn't judge a man's character without knowing like you've done Andy, he's not only a great guy but also a good martial artist and this is not 'protect the leader mentality' lol since apparently nothing along those lines can't be say without being a cult follower lol, but the man loves BJJ, having trained with the Machado brothers and Braulio Estima, also he loves MMA he trained Alex Riley in some ground and pound for a fight, did he win that fight I don't really know lol but he found value on the DL (KFM at the moment) principles of ground and pound. 7. I do agree with the cult thing though and I saw it a LOT on Keysi more than anything, keep in mind I've been in all 3 of them, currently DL and there's no cult going on, at least not from my view cause I don't get to the point of worshiping nobody. 8. The McDojo things I think applies everywhere like Demi Lovato being blue BJJ in like 2 months lol come on now, or the famous persons having only train like 2 months for a role being advance belts on x system, so that takes place on any martial arts system, like I've known some Karate guys that are super advance belts cause they pay and in a matter of months so let's not pretend that is something exclusive from x or y method. So at the end, if, IF, you have the chance to train with real instructors, I suggest you to do so, it'll only cost you time more than anything, there's a great guy named JJ, he's a friend if mine, he was living in NY, JJ Caruncho, he's great, maybe if you're close to the area can try to reach out and have a good time, a good session, at the end that's all martial artist can do, study, develop and take what they feel works for them and what not. Have a good one mate, by the way, funny name on the channel lol
1. My expertise in the system is irrelevant. I know how fighting works. I any of my statements or suppositions about DL are wrong, explain it to me. But whether I've practiced DL doesn't change the fact that they have some mindbogglingly dumb moves. You would have to argue that those moves have a use in scenarios that I've never considered or heard of, or argue that the martial art, on average, isn't nearly as dumb as that move is. And, if you pick the latter, I would ask why Andy Norman would only advertise the worst, dumbest moves in the system? 2. Most arts have drills, but drills usually involve moves that have a chance of working. I know you wouldn't be moving in a drill like you would in sparring, but why wouldn't you just drill better moves? 3. If normal sparring usually reverts to basic Muay Thai moves, then isn't that evidence that Muay That is better and more useful? I get that the Pensador is for when everything collapses, but basing your system around fighting from a tactical disadvantage is a terrible idea, and most of the Keysi and DL systems seem to launch off the Pensador. That violates basic principles of combat. Trying to win from a losing position is a terrible idea, and it seems to be a massive chunk of that system. Functional arts stress getting the positional advantage. Only non-functional arts base their systems on winning from a positional disadvantage. It's an exercise in futility. If you have to resort to the Pensador in a fight, they're going to kick your butt either way. I would very much like to see a video of sparring, though. Multiple DL people have commented saying that they spar, but no one has given me a video of actual sparring. You can probably understand why I am very skeptical of the sparring, at this point. 4. I'm not saying that DL has zero useful moves. Almost every art has SOMETHING usable, but that's a very low bar to climb over. However, the elbows and hammerfist attacks that I've seen from DL just look blatantly worse than the elbowing and clinch game of Muay Thai. The strikes are from awkward angles and the target zones are often silly. Why practice DL when there are blatantly better alternatives. This isn't about whether DL CAN work. It's about whether it's worth learning, or whether it's simply an inferior striking art. Is Aikido worth learning for the 2-3 moves that could work? No. Why learn a mediocre art when you could spend the same time learning a good art? I get what you're saying about Karate Kata and sparring looking different, but I can actually FIND Karate sparring. There's actual film evidence that it exists, and we can all admit that the Katas are a non-functional tradition that have virtually no practical value. In DL, the stupid Katas are the only thing that seems to exist in that art. I've seen no evidence of effective sparring, or anything that looks significantly better than the stupid Kata drills. If Karate had as much Kata as DL seems to, then the entire art would be an absolute waste of time. 5. The difference in that example is that the other guy is ALSO a boxer. If two boxers fight each other, a boxer will win and a boxer will lose. It's not about who wins or by how much. It's about the fact that there IS sparring. It's about practitioners pressure testing themselves. And it would also give me a chance to see what the DL practitioners are managing to do when they spar. Are they managing to use DL moves live, or does it just end up looking like bad Muay Thai sparring? 6. I judge people based on their actions. And Andy Norman has created a system that will promote someone to black belt AND certify them as an instructor entirely online. I can't say he's a bad person, because I don't know him. But I CAN say he's a bad martial artist, because of things like that. For reference, the Gracies have a system where you can take online lessons before coming into an actual school to test for your blue belt. That program is still very controversial, and is skirting the line of "legit". Andy Norman's website promises to make you a black belt instructor ENTIRELY online. That is way, way over the line and lands him squarely in "McDojo" territory. 7. I will say that, solely based on the comments on this video, the cult thing applies WAY more to DL than Keysi. I've had a few ridiculous people arguing for Keysi, but I've had what feels like a non-stop string of people rapidly arguing for DL, and most of them make the same bad arguments. It sounds like they're hitting pre-prepared talking points. You are easily one of the most reasonable DL people I've talked to so far, because you actually took the time to make real points, which I thank you for. The DL people feel more culty partly because whatever they say always boils down to Andy Norman personally. I can't recall many Keysi people caring about Justo Dieguez one way or another, but the DL people do seem to have a much stronger 'protect the leader' mentality, as you put it. I admit that my experience with DL people is a convenience sample, and the larger population might not look like that. But many of the other DL people that have commented have done you a disservice lol 8. Dang, did Demi Lovato get a blue belt in 2 months?? I want to look this stuff up! If what you're saying is true, that sounds like a potential video idea lol It's true that there are plenty of systems with McDojo elements. DL is FAR from the worst martial art out there. But I try and call out BS when I see it, even if it's from martial arts that I like. Thank you for the input. It's a low bar, but this might be the most productive exchange I've had with someone defending DL. lol
@@ArmchairViolence at the risk of sounding like I'm trying to take advantage we can always talk privately or maybe video call so we can still have more of this healthy debate and I can tell you some stories about real cult mentality and things I've seen within the time I've been with them and maybe share some more experiences and maybe material, cause I've been in the 3 of them (KFM, Keysi and DL) you prolly have more DL folks replying since almost all of them speak the language whether Keysi folks not so much lol, that prolly can explain it a bit but hit me up if you want to talk and such, have a great one man ✌🏼
We don't wear gloves in street fights. That's why the technology of boxing block can't protect us enough. So for that reason, I became interested in KFM, but after listening to you guys, I think there is no sparring and there is a lack of a systematic training system as a martial art.
The Keysi creator Justo Dieguez was a known and proven bad ass. It's co creator Andy Norman was originally a Jeet Kune Do practitioner who transitioned after meeting Justo. I can only assume that these two were able to make the system work for them, and I always assumed that it must surely be a very effective style but this video has definitely put me off ever wanting to train it now. I do like a lot of the covering techniques it uses as they do appear to be very effective, but I suppose without personal pressure testing there's no way to really be sure.
Having trained in various martial arts I can say that nearly all of them have had their good points and bad points. From the video it is evident that you have only seen videos and not actually trained in either. While I can't speak of KFM from experience I fo know from talking to people who have done it that it lacks development, so if something doesn't work it will be kept in because they don't know that it doesn't work. I have done DL for the past 5 years and I can say that it does pressure test and use sparring. The 4 man box is there as a way of feeling what it is like to be hit when throwing techniques, and the way your brain shuts down when this happens. You can use a perfect technique when practicing it but thrown inside the box and it can all go out the window, until you get used to it. And in the sparring I have lost teeth they hit so hard. None of which are shown in the videos. Does it have its bad points, yes. Is it hard to get used to, yes. It is so different to nearly anything else I have studied. DL and KFM both have a background in FMA and JKD. Also a lot of what seem stupid moves are because it is a weapon style taught initially as an unarmed style and only make sense when a weapon is added. But like all styles its effectiveness is based mainly on the instructors background and teaching style. And I think all styles now suffer from one main problem. Trying to teach something that hurts to people who don't want to get hurt, and I don't mean injured, I mean an accidental near full power strike because you missed your timing with a block. Reality based styles are taught like semi contact sports because if they were taught like the have to be taught there would be nobody learning except a few. I hate it when my partners apologise for hitting me because I didn't block correctly or not punching straight because they don't want to hit me, as both of these can be worse than something that doesn't work, because a crap technique taught properly can work with a little bit of luck, but a good technique taught badwill never work.
For me as a boxer it's crazy to think that these guys believe they can open their body that much with that shitty defense and try to catch my hooks to their body for a crazy reverse mumbo jumbo combo while my other hand is still free.
This is true, whenever I see a clip of this system I think "just front kick him lol" which defeats 90% of their system, inb4 "untrained thugs don't front kick!1" or whatever, they do, in fact, that's like the only kick they do.
Though the system is heavily flawed, I m wondering if there are techniques and principles that could, be, once broken down, be useful in some situation. For example couldn't the guard and the rushing forward be used in a single / group assault to protect rush the opponent to break the dynamic and possibly have them injured their hands on the elbows (a bit like bare knuckles style). What is you opinion? You seem to know more than what s easily accessible on Internet
You can find bits and pieces of things that can work in virtually every system, but it's kind of like looking for food in the trash. You should only do it if you have no other choice lol
@@ArmchairViolence hahaha I guess😂. Is there actually a system that s not oriented offensive? Something that actually based on how to take a hit or avoid it, disengage from the individual or groups effectively and escape?
@@notannie4798 Yes! Take up running. 🤣 Being fast and athletic is the best way to get away quickly. If you want to be able to survive an extended engagement, you need to genuinely be able to fight.
@@notannie4798 you might laugh, but i've found capoeira to be excellent for things like movement, active defense and fitness. seems to fit your requirements
Ok, I'm glad were talking about the flaws of this system. but can we talk about ways to make it work? its not totally useless, it just needs to be refined and reworked! like instead of blocking to the outside with the elbow, try blocking to the inside for an extended sneak jab followed by a hook or a secondary jab! Or instead of aiming for the thigh, slip then go for a clinch or go for a ballistic punch to the diaphragm, a hook to the liver or an uppercut! the guard could work but, the flaw lies in the counters used and the guard going outside instead of inside where it would be most effective! they could also use some ground game and some more practical ways to transition into strikes but a hammer fist is actually really effective for creating openings to the center line of an opponent or throwing an unexpected blow from an unorthodox angle. i think using the inner and outer forearm for strikes would greatly benefit this system. adds variety to the amount of ways you can catch an op off guard.
I am new to this, which self defense method do you guys recommend? I saw Rokas talking about Tony Blauer's SPEAR system, I am interested in more REAL methods and systems that do work, btw I started training MMA seriously cause of you and icy mike
It really depends on what you're looking for. MMA is excellent for hand-to-hand. As long as you're doing something reasonably good, the most important thing is that you enjoy it and want to keep doing it! If you like Muay Thai better than wrestling, then do Muay Thai. If you like shivworks better than MMA, then do shivworks. Whichever legit system gets you to train consistently is probably the best system for you!
@@ArmchairViolence thanks for the reply mate, I appreciate it, I'll Keep on MMA! But I want to discovery those legit systems, for now I only know the SPEAR, and shivworks that Reid commented, I would like to know some more! Y'know, always experimenting and testing
I agree with the points made here but the only counterpoint I'll make is this. I've never trained in Keysi, but I believe it's intended for how to fight when 3+ guys are all swinging at you. So, keeping your head fully protected even while you strike is more important than landing the most powerful strike to the optimal target. And trying to use your hands to grapple is also out. It's a bit like knife defences - the best knife defences aren't the best techniques for an unarmed attacker. Instead, they're a compromise, given the huge threat from the knife hand.
I remember when Keysi was at its height it had almost a cult like following despite comments then that it didn’t work. I think you’re being kind to the founders, they created a movie martial art which they expanded into the real world convincing misguided souls that they were going to be awesome street fighters! Glad to see it and Defence Lab consigned to the dustbin of failed martial arts.
They didn't create a movie martial art, they approached them because it was such unconventional fighting style, movies is what brought them to light not the other way around.
How interesting, I'm glad someone was able to point out that KFM isn't worth it, as I'm no expert and wasn't aware of its inherent flaws. For years I've been planning on learning how to defend myself. KFM was unfortunately going to be the first martial art / fighting method that I was going to join as an adult. Any recommendations for a replacement to KFM? I'm not exactly interested in MMA but that honestly might be the go to, although cage fighting is not my intent. BJJ and Pencak Silat have always been on my bucket list too, but BBJ I find to be very specific, and silat to be very exotic and perhaps difficult to find anyone that can teach me. So that's why I have geared towards KFM in the past as a main foundation so to speak. To give some context on my interest in fighting, I have taken Taekwondo as a child, and as wonderful as it was to learn how to kick, I later realized that the teachings there wasn't for function but more so for the sport aspect, still was fantastic to learn enough to become comfortable and competent with many of the basic kicks. Now just as a disclaimer (if anyone has even bothered to read this far lmao) I am NOT seeking to learn how to fight in competitions and combat sports, nor am I one of those "street fighter" ding dongs either, I purely am seeking function out of fighting so I can at least have an idea on how to defend myself if the need ever arises. I know many have a huge biased towards combat sports and will probably recommend them, and I'm okay with those recommendations because combat sports are the best tested martial arts of all. But also know I am not trying to master any particular fighting style either. I don't aspire to be the best in anything, which is why I stopped taking those Taekwondo courses, it reached a point where my instructor wanted me to learn more and more of these flashy moves, pointless katas, and compete against other schools and earn a title, but I was never interested in any of that and still am not interested in those things. And to touch on the topic of self defense, I am aware fighting is the very last thing you would want to do, running away or defusing the scenario is always going to be a better option generally. And why I'd like to learn how to fight without any weapons first and foremost is that I don't want to have to feel the need to always be carrying around a gun or a melee tool, as I feel it wouldn't be versatile enough and would be too reliant on carrying something.
Since you want a general, well-rounded knowledge base, MMA might be the best one for you. Most people that take lessons don't actually compete, so you won't be expected to do the sports aspect. And a lot of MMA schools also mix in some self-defense curriculum occasionally.
I would strongly suggest that you find someone actually skilled teaching boxing. There’s lots of people out there who can throw a punch but very few that are actually skilled at the sweet science. The continual practice of what you can learn here is very well established as effective so you can have faith that what you’re learning is useful.
@@dbuck1964 I agree....boxing is the shortest straightest line to being able to injure another human through punching. Far better than karate or average martial arts other than mma and Thai......but how to not fracture ones hand. There's a reason whey there's a fracture called "Boxer's Fracture". Anyone with skills and experience on the street has had their hand broken...even Mike Tyson. If Tyson can't throw without fracturing...the rest of us are hopeless.
TRUTH: Keysi Method was invented by stunt man Justo Diéguez. It always looks cool to the media when in the marketing you say "We invented a martial art style for the film." Justo is a student of Dan Inosanto. So Keysi Method is a stunt fighting method influenced by Inosanto's filipino panantukan style that become over blown when people saw Batman throwing nothing but elbows.
