Kreia's Conundrums - Machines 

Papito Qinn the force flow through all things including humans just as much as rock even in legends there is force sensitive droids

You mean Skippy? Those stories aren't canon.

Papito Qinn I'm super digging this kreia series and super appreciate that mindset for content creation. You're doing well homie

Greg Howard Yeah, ever since I hot 1000 subs I've been growing faster than I ever have. I'm starting to think that RU-vid promotes your videos more once you hit that milestone.

Very well done, thank you. Greatly appreciated your interpretation of HK-47’s speech. Hadn’t quite thought of it that way before

Kreia despises machines because they cannot be felt through the Force. She can see everything and everyone through the Force, but not machines. She despises them because they cannot be influenced in the way Kreia has been taught. The very thing that enables her, fails her, causing frustration.

That's not true, though. From the very outset of the game, the Exile is able to sense the droids on the other side of the door in the Peragus facility. Kreia can sense the Exile approaching the droids from much further away. It has nothing to do with her not being able to sense them. The more likely explanation is that for all their complexity, they are simple-minded beings, generally unable to express any form of sentience. Hence, on a side note, I find it curious that Kreia expresses nothing towards HK-47, who is sentient and capable of understanding the world on a broad scale as a human could. He is still subservient to his Master per his programming, but he is capable of being influenced. Granted, the game mechanics will also grant you influence towards G0-T0 and T3, but those are task-based influences, not ideologically-grounded influence checks. That is one of the things that turns Kreia's gears; independent thought and analysis, so if there ever was a machine she did respect, it likely would have been HK, as he was not only Revan's concealed dagger, but perhaps the most sentient, educated droid in the galaxy to that point.

In a way that can apply to Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Hell you can take it a step further and say he couldn’t “make the choice without regret.” During his fall to the dark side or while as Vader, he constantly regretted his morally dubious and despicable deeds... leading to his redemption and destroying Sidious.

​@@EricGraham94 Actually, Anakin's redemption could be a counterexample to Kreia's perspective. Kreia would argue that Anakin was true to himself as Darth Vader, and that rejecting the dark side to return to the light was a form of "spiritual collapse" or psychosis in which Vader denied who he truly was in a moment of stress. Kreia sees redemption as being the same thing as a fall: in her view someone can fall to the dark side, but similarly someone can fall to the light side, too. In a "fall" in either direction, someone loses faith in her or his true nature and radically rejects the self in favor of a self-destructive path. But I think there is at least a strong case to be made that, unlike what Kreia would suppose, Vader was a coping mechanism all along for Anakin, in which case Vader would not be Anakin's true self, making Anakin's redemption an epiphany about who he really was rather than being a "fall" back to the light. But in a different situation, perhaps Kreia would be right and the "true self" of the person seeking "redemption" would be more in tune with the dark side all along, and so by "succumbing" to the light it would in fact constitute a "fall" for that person rather than true growth. An example of such may be someone becoming indoctrinated into the absolute morality of a cult as opposed to learning to think critically: even if the cult was like the Jedi, surrendering one's morality entirely to it whilst abandoning the ability to think about or question its beliefs and edicts would still count as a "fall". Ajunta Pall did have a lot of time to think and ruminate about his actions, so unlike Kreia I would see Revan as having been the catalyst that awakened Ajunta to what he was already moving towards, rather than Ajunta Pall falling to the light as Kreia sees it: he did most of the internal work himself long before Revan came along.

The same concept exists in harry potter. Voldemorts soul could have been healed through experiencing empathy for those he harmed but it would have killed his physical form to do it.

"Make your own damn coffee." - Kreia

I'm also pretty reserved when it comes to commenting on youtube videos, unless it's to reply to one made on one of my own videos. But thank you very much. When I first started this I was worried that people would simply dismiss me as a fool who didn't understand anything. Comments like yours fills me with what I imagine confidence must feel like. It means a lot.

Hey, I truly mean what I said. This may sound ignorant, but I've watched RU-vid channels from varying outlooks and perspectives such as Eckhart's Ladder, or Star Wars Reading Club. Albeit, their content is much appreciated and I enjoy their little video essays or opinions, I dislike the fact that they only delve into topics that are rather base or simplistic in my opinion. Like I said above, I have only found that '.' and yourself have done in-depth videos on topics in Star Wars that really are underrepresented, and do a critical analysis of the philosophy or point out certain viewpoints that needed an extra addendum. But, as a concluding statement, it is good to have people that enjoy the work you put into your labor of love. When I write and submit my work for others to enjoy, you might get one good review that thanks you for what you've done or understood what you've put into it. I guess my advice from that anecdote is that you will always have people that dismiss you because of a gap in understanding, enjoy your videos because it's a new source of knowledge or prospect and others that'll support you, whether it be vocally or silently. :)

Thank you, man. I intend to keep them coming. But I gotta admit, Battletech just came out and it is addictive.

There were so many nice references. Rurouni kenshin, witcher 1 soundtracks, deus ex, you did a fine job making a connection with these all forms of art. Beautiful. You deserve more views.

Thank you. Yeah, maybe I do deserve more views. Tell you're friends about me.

Thank you. I do what I can. Thanks for the support!

What do you want to be?

Papito Qinn Someone im proud of

red shadow I know exactly what you mean. I had a thought that other day that might help: Life isn't about lamenting on what you don't have. You gotta do the best you can with what you do.

@@redshadowtheultimate ahhh thus through your struggle you wrought victory, though you sought wisdom on your own you would be wise to never enslave yourself to anothers words. Who you shall become is already in the making, perhaps you shall defy the forces will and forge a new path or perhaps this is the path always intended. Regardless remain vigilant, you will find the answers you seek with time, although you may find yourself with more questions in the end.

Probably a low opinion of the individuals in it but see's its effectiveness

I don't think she would mind it, since she teaches you to view people as disposable

Funnily enough, in Legends, clones and non-clones alike would refer to the clone army, in various contexts, as "wet droids" ("wet" being clone trooper jargon for "organic", as opposed to their usual droid targets). I think Kreia would find cloning slightly repulsive... Manufactured, like droids, yet having flesh and bone. A perversion of life. But I think she would treat the clones themselves like any other being, because they are. They grow and learn, they aren't exactly like machines, the Force binds them as well. And whatever consience or soul animates the body of a clone, had just as much influence as any other over the creation of the body it inhabits. As for the army itself... It's just another army, isn't it? A tool for those which command it, if you will. I genuinely can't remember what's her stance on wars and armies...

Thank you. I try to use appropriate tracks.

Thank you! I am curious though, what did you initially expect?

I agree that Revan wouldn't have learned this stance on the force from Kreia. But I do believe that it was because of Kreia's teachings that he most likely came to the same conclusion. That the force's manipulations are detrimental. Jedi know that the force is using them like puppets. Their entire lives are dedicated to trusting it and letting it guide your life.

@@PapitoQinn There is no reason why he would see the Force's manipulations as detrimental, if he even saw them as manipulations at all. Revan, as Kreia herself says, is the opposite of the Exile - comparable to a Force Nexus, his path already laid out before him even as a student. Darth Revan himself, in both KotOR games and even TOR (loathe as I am to consider the MMO), all show Revan to be extremely trusting of the Force as well, relying on it heavily and even letting it make decisions for him (as Handmaiden mentions). While not evil per-say, he was a [pragmatic] Sith by the time of the Jedi Civil War, but even as a Sith he retained the mindset of a Jedi when it came to the Force. His desires to 'subvert' the Force's control started and ended with his assassins (meatbags like Atton and robots like HK), whom were valued not due to being free of the Force's control, but due to being obedient and difficult for Jedi to predict/detect. TL;DR - Nothing supports Revan coming to the same conclusion as Kreia during his time as Sith Lord or prior, but plenty of evidence points towards Revan having a view on the Force opposite that of Kreia instead (that she calls the Exile greater than Revan, and never claims that Revan wasn't a failure, point towards this well).

@@DBArtsCreators Out of all the videos I've made of dialogue in the game I've never encountered Kreia saying that the exile is better than Revan, or the handmaiden saying anything about Revan other than talking about his relationship and fight with Malak. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but you'll have to show me. All Kreia says is that the Exile and Revan are different. His path would involve him killing Jedi, but that's it. Every aspect of it laid out like a movie, I personally wouldn't think so. Revan returned to Kreia specifically to shed his Jedi mindset. Kreia says so and so does the Disciple. If he did trust the force and/or didn't think that it has a mind of it's own, then there wouldn't have been any reason for him to subvert it in any shape or form ever. Revan wasn't in KOTOR 2, he's only spoken about. And in KOTOR 1 he was brainwashed by the Jedi. I've never played TOR so I mostly ignore it. Maybe there's something in there that suggests that Revan trusted the force wholeheartedly, despite being one of Kreia's best students, but I wouldn't know.

@@PapitoQinn * You have seen it, though you may not have caught it. At the end of the game, when you beat Kreia, she says that you are greater than any she has ever trained - this includes Revan, of course, since she trained him too (twice, since she was his first and his last master). * Handmaiden, when discussion Battle Precognition with the Exile, mentions that Revan was a master of it, on par with the Echani war masters (or whatever they were called). Revan's Battle Precognition, like the Exile's, came through his connection to the Force, and being on par with the Echani masters would mean, going by Handmaiden's words, that he was foreseeing the outcome of entire battles and wars before they'd even really gotten started (similar to Kreia at Malachor, though he probably could only see months, maybe years, at most into the future). Since he trusted this precognition, he was putting his trust and faith into the Force and relying on it. Heavily (and such is just one example. There are others that can be gleaned from dialogue in-game). * In terms of difference, Kreia does not only say that the two are different: she says how. The Exile is like the death of the Force, a hole in it (and as the Jedi Masters say themselves, as does Kreia later, the Exile is a blind spot in the Force as well, a being that can alter and deny the will of the Force and 'cut through the future like a blade'). Revan, on the other hand, she says was 'overflowing with the Force', 'like the heart of the Force' (all in all, a Force Nexus), and that even as a student one could see the violence that was to come (showing just how certain his Force-defined future was). * He returned to Kreia to learn how to separate his ties to the Jedi, not necessarily to change his mindset (that he'd already done regardless). And again, she was not a Sith either by that point. She was an exiled Jedi, not a Sith, when Revan returned to her. Revan went Sith first. Kreia went after, in the aftermath of the Jedi Civil War. * Kreia trusted whole-heartedly in the Force until she was cast out of the triumvirate. She advocated accepting the Force as a whole originally, understanding the contrast. It wasn't until she is cast out of the triumvirate that this changes into 'the Force is a manipulator that can't be trusted and must be subverted/destroyed). * I do not speak of the player character, and if you are going to try and say that 'we never got to see Revan directly' as a point against my arguments, it is an equal point against yours for the same reason. So let's drop that. * Going back to KotOR 1 & 2 (because fuck TOR): Darth Revan, when discussed, was thoughtful, meditative, and calculating. As mentioned by Handmaiden, he was a skilled user in Battle Precognition. He was seeking to have as much Force-based power that he could. He did his best to avoid the corruption of the dark side but still delved into it due to his merciless practicality (to the point where G0-T0 praises him). HK points out that, from his experience with Revan as a Darth, he was a manipulator interested primarily in using the Force to bend others to his will, not subverting it. Nowhere is it implied that he was trying to find a way to get out of the Force's control, or that he didn't trust it, and nowhere is there a record of him trying to subvert it or manipulate it in the first place (beyond the ways sith typically do, which is still the use of the Force, not the subversion of it).

@@DBArtsCreators * Maybe you're right on this. Kreia might have considered the Exile to be her greatest, most successful student. Considering what she wanted to accomplish with her. * You'll have to give me an example of Revan *heavily relying* on his battle precognition. There's no question that he used it as another tool. But as a strategist and tactician, he would know better than anyone to not completely rely on any one thing. The way he approached the siege of Dxun also makes me think that despite the precognition, he was covering his bases. * Not anyone could see, but Kreia could see that Revan's ambitions, even without the force, would result in Jedi dying. If Kreia was as strong in the force as Revan, the force still couldn't control her. Just like the exile, but not because she's a wound, but because she keeps herself centered. It's totally possible that Revan did the same. Especially when he studied sith teachings and was a sith lord. * I'm pretty sure Revan had Kreia teach him how to leave before she was excommunicated. And of course he went to her to change his mindset. Anyone can just walk away or be exiled. When you first meet Kreia, if the exile says anything like: "I'm not a Jedi." She tells you that you're deluding yourself. Revan absolutely went to her to learn how he can leave. The exact time line of events though, I never thought about that much. * Kreia trusted in the force until she was exiled from the Jedi. She went to the other extreme. The sith believe that the force can and should be dominated. After that: it needs to go. *No, we don't get to directly see the answers to either of our stances. The best we can do at the end of the day is speculate, and choose what we believe. This is a fictional universe after all. Which will inevitably end with us arguing in circles. But regardless, HK-47 mentions Revan manipulating things to reach his objective, like using HK-47 for assassinations, but I don't remember him saying anything about him specifically using the force. You don't need the force to manipulate. Revan did learn as much as he could. But you don't have to be light or dark to use force powers.

Me too, I backed it on kickstarter. Well worth it so far. Furthermore, I made something you might enjoy: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-PqY4GzXEUb8.html

Just passed 6 minutes on this vid, so I'll check this next link after.

She’d probably be intrigued by the Vong; their existence lies outside of the Force and they forged their own civilization through their will and philosophy. In fact, she’d probably even see a resemblance of what she wanted seen in the Jedi and Sith Orders: a synthesis. The Vong’s appearance forced the light and dark sides of the Force to unite against them.

Thank you, and I will.

Kreia teaches the exile to learn from her mistakes and to not have regrets. The thing about baptism is that it's a way of giving someone and "out". An excuse to feel better about what you did, but not to necessarily learn anything from it. The religion itself can be used as a shield to absolve you of any crimes. Like in Fallout Honest Hearts, how Daniel and Joshua cherry pick from scripture to support their already established conclusions. Some, like Comstock, take it too an extreme and say that their actions are God's actions. Kind of like Thane in Mass Effect, who believes that as an assassin, he's nothing more than a blunt object. His employers are the ones pulling the trigger. Absolving him of any responsibility. To reference one more game concerning what the baptism led to: "Prepare for unforseen consequences." It may not have been one thing. It's probably all of the above, the baptism, christian doctrines, the racism, and Comstock's own nature.

Yes, that was from Ghost in the Shell.

Mechcommander 2. Couldn't get it running again after this.

So not drinking or bathing in them, but drowning, actually dying in it. Who can say? It would be an interesting topic to theorize over. Maybe the pool of knowledge immediately consumes the individual and they become one with the force. Maybe the font of power would turn them into a mindless, zombie-like revenant of death. What do you think?

Papito Qinn its hard to decide... Outright destroying ones existence could be a possibilitu

The Elder Scrolls III Morrowind - Peaceful Waters

I have no thoughts, I've never played it, and I probably never will. My MMO days are behind me I'm afraid.

Thanks man, I appreciate it. It's come a ways but it still has a long way to go.

Love that game. But damn is it hard to get it running these days. That was the best I could do at the time.

One’s redemption is another’s betrayal.

It’s so philosophically devoid (thus a lack of cohesion with the first 2 KOTOR games), and the lore is all over the place (the latter manifesting in the form of flashpoints and raids)

Peaceful Waters