The problem with this issue is the number of declined warranty claims for spurious reasons and the length of time.that it takes to source the replacement parts to complete the repairs when they do honour the warranty! 😮😮😮
I have had two new KTM's over the last 6 years and never again. Not because they are bad bikes. But having had to have 3 warranty claims in 3 years. And experience the worst customer service both from the dealer and KTM's own customer service ever. Never ever again!
You can’t go far wrong buying Japanese, I’ve owned 5 Kawasakis over the years & not had a single problem with any of them, where I live ( Thailand ) parts are really cheap & servicing too although I do all the maintenance myself. Ride safe & take care
Right, the answer is available to us all now. It's not a hardness problem on the cam lobes, it's actually oil starvation. It doesn't matter what oil you use, or how often you change it, the oil can't reach the squirter jets. Miss aligned cross drilling in the head means the oil simply can't get to the camshafts. Poor design and / or the shabby manufacturing / machining is seemingly what's going on. I know you're not keen on the guy mate, but if anyone is interested in seeing exactly what the issue is, check out the video that was posted by Matt Hudson on Sunday evening (11th) on his channel "the dirty garage guy". Now that this is established, it's quite simple to determine whether or not the latest engines feature the same oil path design. Now we are all better informed, and this hanging question can be finally put to bed.
loved my KTM 790 fantastic bike but oil and water leak problems both known issues very poor customer service Dealer we have never had that before sir. Time will tell if the problems have been fixed in the mean time enjoy what looks to be a fantastic bike
Even my local dealer admitted there were problems on "the early 790's". Reliability made me walk away from an 890........that and having to pay for the package that's already on the bike.
This problem is due to a design problem not a production issue therefore it will affect all bikes eventually. The reason not everyone has had the problem will be down to mileage covered and or type of riding the bike has done. KTM should do the right thing and replace the parts when they fail regardless of bike age or mileage.
With the widespread and easy availability of such large amounts of information on manufacturers' significant mechanical deficiencies, every customer should go into a prospective purchase with eyes wide open.
Thats not correct - the issues are the Engines are reluctant to start,reduced performance,reduced MPG and excess Mechanical Noise ( bearing in mind owners say they can be quite noisy even when OK ).
I have an 800NK ...done 20k KMs in the past 6 months. Will be due for a VC in a few months (30k). Will know for sure then if the cams issue affects CFmoto as well when we open up the valve cover for the VC inspection.
Came across this vid by browsing your Guzzi V7 walkaround vid - nice. I'm a 2018 790 Duke owner (since new) and am one of the 0.2 to 0.8% you quote. When I took my bike for it's 1st big service at 19,000 miles at an official dealer the mechanic refused to adjust the valves as the cam was so badly worn. Sent me the pic which showed it in an awful state. I asked them to take it up with KTM for me but because I didn't buy it from them they told me to take it back to my original dealer, which I did. They took up the case with KTM but were given short shrift. They did help me with a discount on the new parts but the whole thing ended up costing me a ridiculous amount of money (I think the parts were about £1,200 - plus labour). The fact that you say there is a Facebook group with circa 8.5 K members makes me think that either they and KTM, but probably just KTM, were not totally forthcoming with me when they said that they had never come across this before. I'll check out the Facebook page you mention and see if there is anything active around it right now as I'm still gutted about the experience. At the same time I had to replace the warped front disc rotors (£400 plus fitting) plus new tyres. The actual service led to an overall bill that came to somewhere in the region of £2,900. I've since bough a new bike but I can't bring myself to sell the Duke as market value is only in the region of £3,500. It would be like throwing it away. Suffice it to say this is the last KTM I'll ever buy. Sad as I've owned a few (though none with the miles to make it to the first big service).
I’d be concerned if I had a cf Moto with the probability that they make KTM engines. From things I’ve seen it looks like the KTM camshafts aren’t hard enough for the contact parts within the engine, thus wearing prematurely.
Just to clarify, the issue is caused by low oil flow to the camshaft. This has not been fixed on ANY KTM 790, 890 to date. Regardless of other modifications, the oil supply is still not sufficient and most will suffer this issue at some point. The oil strainer modification will only make the issue worse. KTM is very untrustworthy even when covered by warranty. Total sales don't reflect the issue, because most bikes only do very low mileage by owners who anticipate to ride more, but never do. This issue will mostly arise after higher mileage.
I have the MT800 sport as yours and it suffered a jerky throttle in sport mode. There is a simple way to calibrate the throttle and it works very well. You tuber MJTech gives a simple step by step way of calibrating the fly by wire throttle. Worked for me and the bike is so much nicer to ride.
I think my major concern about this issue and the 4 yr gttee is this, the wording in the gttee paperwork. It almost certainly will say something along the lines undue wear and tear due to a manufacturing defect. If the mfr, any mfr, then the owness is on the customer to PROVE that the fault lies with the mfr to rectify. But what happens if you, the owner, experience "difficult starting, poor running, lack of power" etc and the bike is inspected and the dealer he say "Non". If I owned a CF with an engine comparable to the KTM 790/890 I would be checking the wording of their gttee VERY carefully.
If any owner is at all worried, I'd be tempted throw in an extra fully-synthetic oil change between services. If only for a tad more peace of mind. Edit. Although if it's an oil supply issue, that ain't gonna help.
If the KTM cams are being worn through lack of oil then why are the cam lobes wearing more that the followers / fingers? Likely to be a specific problem affecting one batch of components.
why do people buy it when they know they have so many issues and the back up warranty is worthless? because KTM are doing well on the race track people think it reflects the bikes they can buy, but those bikes are stripped inspected and re assembled with new parts which are specially made for racing like pistons con rods and the camshafts with slightly different profiles as they burn a higher octane fuel not your standard supermarket low grade fuels.
Surely the buck stops with the Austrians? - they designed the head and camshafts and the Chinese designed the issue into their engines, much like they did with the RR Derwent in the 1950s. My understanding is they’ve redesigned the head oil ways on the current bikes from ‘21 or ‘22 onwards?
I believe you're right - I recall reading something similar to this in MCN. But read the comments - this is like politics. People are dogmatic in their views, which aren't necessarily based on facts.
Thanks very much for the mention Dave, that's very kind indeed and much appreciated. Glad your bike is going really well! Lets prove the doubters wrong... 😊😊
One of my favourite routes which always includes a sausage barm and a mug of tea at the Riverside Tearooms in Slaidburn by the beautiful river Hodder with all its duck's. Once did the route in winter when the temperature was below zero and the wind over the tops nearly cut you in two. Never again, in summer its out of this world in winter, not so much.
Hi TBW, you keep mentioning the 4 year warranty, but does that include parts and labour?, I've read that the accepted claims were for parts only and only if you had receipts for official Dealer services. Do you intend to the CFMoto for 4 years to test this out?. I have to say I was tempted by the Benelli Leoncino 800 until I started to read about the potential cam issues with them using the same engine.
Could be interesting to see if there are some indications on where these problems accure. Is it widespread? Or in this or that region? Or this or that production unit? If possible to determ, it would be interesting! But again, the issue is so small. 🙂
I am a numbers man. And the percentile you have explained clearly gives the picture of issues with the engine. All about perspective really. Similar shout on the gearbox for the T120. Not sure what the numbers are for failures on this bike but I assume they are very low. Another great video 👍. I assume you have now replaced your old PC. Please share the what you bought and the costs 👍
You're certainly spoilt for wide open spaces up there! The natural habitat for the 800MT, I think. Can you confirm one point - what figure for total sales did you come up with? I ask because if 8,500 represents 0.2%, then the total sales would be 4.25 million units, which seems high for a manufacturer of KTM's size.
@@stevesanelli90 I can do maths, but that would mean that KTM build 85 Million in one year, They have sold Ok, bit not that good And that why I asked where he got his totals from. There is a saying , there are lies, bloody Lies and statistics
This sounds like a design / manufacture problem and if so then ALL the bikes will have the issue It appears the problem arises after a certain mileage so a lot of bikes may never reach the mileage and therefore never see the problem If they do it may take years to come to light
Pick mine up this coming week , same model and same colour as yours . Am I looking forward to it absolutely !! and looking forward to proving the doubters wrong . Thanks for putting in the effort and doing the research to be able to quote the proper facts and figures . Too many jump on the wagon without proper research and just start spouting . New Chinese bike models are coming thick and fast it seems and next year going to be another year of the same . Looking forward to seeing the new cfmoto 1250 adventure . How many other manufacturers back there product with a 4 year warranty what’s not to like at the current price point However with the popularity of the brand will they stay at the budget end of the market or will the price slowly be pushed up as they get a bigger slice of the market ,only time will tell . Keep doing what you’re doing as you do it well and look forward to the next vid .
I just hope they didn't have a heap of 18,19 and 20 model engine parts that they then shipped to CF Moto including those cam shafts made of "Cheese", thus cutting losses and then not being directly connected to the issue if it occurs, allowing CF Moto to replace the parts under the 4 year warranty and at CF Moto's expense. It was MCN that highlighted the issue recently but they have been around for some time. It's not a Chinese issue if there is one though, it's an Austrian one surely.
Agree, Cams on the early models were cast in Germany….the Chinese ones may actually be harder. Time will tell as not many 23/24 models out there with high mileage. I have a 24 790 with 3k miles. All is well so far. Rattly little engine. Even the Dirt Tricks tensioner didn’t help much. I’m told it’s a KTM they all are noisy! Coming from a Yamaha it’s definitely sounds juntery and Raw. No issues with performance or anything of the like….just a rattly engine.
It will be fascinating to see how CFM Moto handle this warranty / recall issue here in Oz. If CFM don't support the buyers then say good bye to future sales here. Consider that gear circlip failures caused Polaris to shut down Victory Motor cycles to avoid a recall.
The only thing I would say is the given the choice I would rather have the CF Moto than a KTM just on looks and the fact that KTM do that thing where they turn stuff off at sometime after purchase so the customer has then to pay to get it back should they want to use it i.e quick shifter and the like and CF Moto do not am I wrong here ? 👌👍
I have the all new Suzuki gsx8s which has a brand new engine for Suzuki, happy to test it in real world for them, only time will tell on reliability. So far 4000 miles and loving it. Great video, can I ask which sat nav your using?
A well reasoned appraisal of the KTM " camshaft calamity." Of course you applied critical thinking, a commodity that is woefully underused in the UK at the moment. One of my favourite local routes, at its best now but still beautiful in Winter.
Currently riding a 19' 1090 and it's been a solid bike other than early oil leak and fuel pump issue .... I rode the bike home and then it promptly spent 30 days back at the dealer. I will say that KTM was more focused on limiting their cost liability of my warranty vs getting my bike back on the road in an expedient manner. my dealer was great ... it was the KTM rep that blocked everything they wanted to do to get me back on the road. Would I purchase a new 790/890 ... unless KTM can get their shit together ... defiantly not.
Just watched this episode. Can't comment on KTM issues. I've never had one & don't really want one. The thing I'm commenting on is the amount of screens you have on the bike. It would drive me insane not being able to get to the ignition switch. I thought the Android auto unit allowed satnav via Waze or whatever. Personally I'm totally uninterested in music while riding, so I would never buy anything like that. I don't even use a proper satnav these days. I have a version 1 Beeline Moto. Looking to get the new one soon. The main reason is I have a maxi scooter these days & it has plastic encased bars. I have the Beeline on an adhesive mount on front brake master cylinder.
Cfmoto haven’t made 790 motors for KTM until this year, they were supposed too before covid but it was delayed. There has been a lot of misinformation about Cfmoto making motors for KTM and this is not the case, they make the 790 motor under license and Cfmoto have not had this issue as yet, I’ve Even been told this from a friend who works at a KTM dealership and he is worried about it as it’s a big problem.
I have no skin in this game so no axe to grind either way. I would say there is a bit of an issue with your numbers because (from what I can gather) this seems to be happening predominantly to those who put mileage on their bikes and, as we know, not many people do put mileage on their bikes in the first few years so although the numbers may be small atm it could well grow as bikes get older and accrue more miles. There is enough evidence to say that there was or is an issue with cam wear on these engines and KTM have admitted so. Worth watching the Dirty Garage Guy (an actual engineer) who has got hold of one of these failed heads and cams and is doing proper examination of it to see if he can determine the real cause. He does have concern about KTM's "fix" because if KTM think oil feed is the problem then a strainer could be an issue because if that clogs in any way then it will make the wear issue worse and also what are they thinking they need to strain the oil for? if they think there are particles getting to the head that need straining out then what are they and where are they coming from.
Hi I think your bike is amazing I make the mistake of not getting one I wish I had I have a Honda transalp had a new seat in two months and has taken 3 months to get the senter stand so we all make mistakes it rides well and that will do and 2 years warranty for my bike so I think your bike will going for years to come have fun love the channel God bless
Morning Dave, hopefully you won’t have a camshaft issue and you’ve got the peace of mind of a 4 year warranty until CFMOTO say you can’t claim as there’s excessive wear due to the excessive weight of the two screens on your handlebars 😂😂 on a serious note all I’d say is don’t worry until there’s something TO worry about 👍🏻 carry on that man Caio for now tat ta👍🏻
All these trips into Lancashire will get you excommunicated. 🤣 It's a lovely area, part of my old stamping ground. I recently went round part of the area I used to live in, and the road surfaces have deteriorated markedly. Admittedly, it's got to be about 30-40 years since they were last resurfaced. Looking at the road surface you were on, it seems they were all resurfaced around the same time and are now in need to re-doing. Why multiple displays?
Just one point David, and you've clearly avoided this point due to the hecklers out there. How many have a KTM, or owned one for that matter? Most of what you hear on such matters generally end up being over egged as they say, would you be happy if you'd shelled out for a bike and faced these issues. Good video as usual mate, just keep riding and leave the hecklers to heckle.
I haven't said anything on your channel about the KTM issue, but since YOU brought it up... I understand it brings views to your channel but you're doing a disservice to your viewers to dismiss the issue of KTM's lousy customer service and attitude toward the cam issue and other issues. When there is the cam issue along with electrical issues, coupled with the attitude of the company, and many of their dealerships, then there is an issue that should be corrected. My 22' 890 Adventure didn't have the cam shaft wear but it did have TFT issues right off the bat. . My dealer's attitude was, "Did you get the extended warranty?" My reply was the bike has a 2 year warranty, (I had the Standard version. The R version has a 1 year warranty) and you aren't instilling any faith in your product. My TFT went completely blank and was getting heavy condensation inside the TFT. They addressed the blank screen but the condensation issue was never fixed completely. I put 11,000 miles on the bike in 10 months. Had the 11K service and asked the local Husqvarna dealership check the cams along with the valve clearance check, as I didn't trust the dealership I bought the bike from. They said the cams showed normal wear. I was commuting from Northern California to Coastal Central California twice a month and hitting the fire roads and trails when I could. Changed the oil every 3,000 miles after the first service.Along with the 11K service I had them put new sprockets and chain on the bike, rode it home and sold it to a guy that had several KTMs in the garage and we had a conversation about the chatter about the cams and he bought it. Still had 6 months of warranty at the time of sale. I oought a Tenere 700. I'm just not going to put up with lousy attitudes from the company. When I had numerous electrical issues with the 21' Pan America over a year and a half, Harley bought it back from me. that's the kind of customer service a company should provide. The bike was a lemon and left me stranded many times along with making me use other bikes at the last second because the bike wouldn't start in the garage. I have 7 bikes in the garage from four manufacturers. I'm not a one bike, one brand fan boi. The bikes having issues also cover the current models. It appears to be riders who are actually listening to KTM's advice of services ever 6,000 miles instead of the 3,000 that I had services done, they ride the bikes hard, hight RPMs and accumulating high miles in short periods of time, not just putting around country lanes. It also has nothing to do with Chinese manufacture as this is happening in the Austrian built engines. So, it is a good thing that the Facebook page has generated the attention that it has. These manufacturers, especially KTM, need to be held to a standard of service and reliability. KTM charge a lot of money for their products, they should be more responsible. They need a better attitude towards their customers and products. I still have a Husqvarna 501 so I haven't totally given up on the KTM group's products but that's only because it is basically a motocross bike with lights. The FE's are meant to be torn apart and rebuilt more frequently than an ADV bike. And now I'm done with the KTM subject.
It reminds me of my old Ford Cortina 2000 GT. Which had a Pinto engine. They was oh, and the oil feed was in 3 sections. Thus liable to oil starvation and wearing out the cam.. I personally never had a issue as I changed oil and filters regularly.. But I know people who did.. Ford then changed the oil feed to allow greater lubrication, and solved the issue..
Just seen a video as to what the cause of this is , it’s a lubrication issue brought about by a manufacturing fault , this will cost ktm a bloody fortune . Anyway don’t take my word for it , the information will get out soon enough.
Hi Dave, I hope you have no issues with this MC and enjoy many trouble free miles, but KTM engined MC's would not be my choice. Interesting, CF Moto produce some nice value MC's with extra's as standard and Japanese based engine designs, for example, the CF Moto 700 Adventure, with the bored out old ER6 engine design. Although, the MPG, from this old engine design will be low, there won't be any major issues as its reliable. I ride Honda's, one like your mates, a new manual NC 750X, so no need to even consider an engine issue. 😎
I reckon the Chinese bikes that use engines based on tried & tested Honda or Suzuki design’s are likely to be a safer bet . Although just because the bikes based on a KTM engine with known issues , it doesn’t mean that those issues haven’t been addressed by the fitting of upgraded cams on these CF Moto branded motorcycles . Also the question has to be asked , if the early demise or faults on cams ,on these KTM engines , were not the cause of poor servicing or failure to observe proper running in speeds & schedule . Let’s face it many KTM owners in my experience tend to be philistines with little mechanical empathy , who rev the hell out of their engines ,before the oil ,has had chance to thin out & circulate around the top end . So the 🔔 end factor shouldn’t be dismissed . Either way time will tell , if the top end starts sounding like a Swiss cobblers shop on piece rate , it’s a lemon . 😎
Yep, I'm with you on you on that . The slogan that KTM have used for many years is 'Ready to Race' and we all have a good idea of how long such stressed engines will run before issues arise! 'Sprightly performance, ', indeed!
Another collection of smashing views there Dave. As you say, you have a four year warranty so why worry. But there’s bound to be some out there just itching to say “I told you so” for having bought a Chinese bike. You carry on as you are, there’s nowt wrong with that bike. 👍
Wonder if this is a bigger issue ? China uses Australian iron ore , amongst others. Could it be they are diluting the materials to bring their profits up ? Ie the manufacturers of the KTMs? Might explain why an issue of weakness in the camshaft exists when it shouldn’t ? A bit like how they used to water down beer , or nowadays weaken coffee, to stretch the resource?
well said - ratio matters as does the white noise out there , the ktm hater squad just loving to shout bad news and yes there are clearly some issues that need addressing but the ratio of good to bad does need attention and application of common sense. They do need to get their customer service in check as some out there do seem to suffer very badly and i suspect this also helps to fan flames - not had any problem in nearly 9 years of owning ktm myself i have to say
As you bought the bike at a great price and as stated it has a 4 year warranty I certainly can’t see any issues However I’m sure you’ll see a dip in sales which will result in a lowering in price making a good deal a great deal and in all honesty most bikes after 4 years develop issues of one sort or another Good luck with your bike and ignore the NAYSAYERS as they’ll always be out and about shouting from the rooftops Ride safe Enjoyed your vlog Regards from Florida
You sound a little too much like a 1970s spokesman for British Leyland. Faced with a cock-up that is obviously upsetting many customers your immediate response is to minimise its effects by guessing at the numbers involved, bringing in irrelevant problems with other makes and emphasising your faith in the warranty. A warranty that many owners have found to be a nebulous concept in the hands of dealers. Disappointing.
Oi!!! Nowt wrong wi Lancashire ya Yorkshire pud! 😝 The issue for me re KTM and other bikes using the same camshaft system, is its all very well having a 4 yr warranty Dave, and ultimately it shouldn't cost you money. But depending on how long KTM and the dealers take to address the warranty claim, and ive read plenty of horror stories about that, it begs the question - how long are you going to be without the use of your bike in the meantime? Thats just based on the speed of response from the manufacturer, then by your own recent admission, there is the issue of parts availability.If you are having to wait until the end of September for something as simple as a centre stand, how long would we wait for a more critical part?? Warranties are all well and good, but they are only as good as parts availability.. Wanted an MT800 but i think I'll hold off for a while.. Before i say this, i have two bikes...a Kawasaki Z900RS and a Mk 2 CBF1000.. but I'll still say it, its easy not to worry about warranty issues and manufacturer response when we have a 2nd bike to fall back on.. Not everyone has that luxury.. KTM's initial response to these issues can only be described as slow and sluggish at best.. They have only stepped up more recently because they have been called out in a big way and thrown under the 'spotlights' about it... As good ss they sound, I'm not sold on extended warranties as while the problem eventually might be sorted cost free, quite often you lose half the riding season waiting for it.. Good content Dave..😉👍
Good points but to be fair any issues would be with CF Moto not KTM so it will be interesting to see how they deal with potential reputational exposure….and Moto GB would have a big stake in any negative reporting….rest assured I won’t pull any punches on this if it happens to me 😊
From my experience with warranty cover on my new gsxr gt ,the dealer and Suzuki in australia that if they say "it doesnt happen to our engines " and you are left with a worthless new bike ???and you are stuffed rgds.good luck.
Another good video. 👍 As l've said before, l would not part with my cash for a CF Moto. I don't even know what/who CF Moto are, it is an import moniker like Lexmoto? If (and it'd be a big If) l bought a Chinese bike it'd be from a company in a partnership with a brand that couldn't afford to lose its reputation, that is they'd implement their EU standard control over QE on the shopfloor, like BMW does. CF Moto doesn't, maybe that's why they can undercut?
@@paultanton4307 But does KTM have the authority over quality control on the manufacturing line like BMW has, or like Triumph does with Mahindra? Happy to know that they do as it's all important to me.
@@paultanton4307 Really? If a Chinese manufacturer had control over quality, whilst using a renowned name to market/sell, then l'd definitely be out....no offence but there is a showroom 5 mins from me with some very good looking bikes, but they are not what they purport to be. Benelli, Fantic, Moto Morini etc They are Chinese bikes, not Italian bikes, and it's very hard to nail down exactly how/where they are made and who does the quality control.
CFMOTO have been in Australia for about 20 years now. Perhaps it's because of our close trading ties and proximity to China. Their ag equipment (side by sides and quads) are top notch. I bought an 800MT Touring based off that and it's hands down the best bike I've owned - far exceeding my Thai built Triumph's (Bonneville and Sprint ST) in terms of quality for sure.
nice words you put out for KTM, but all of what you say about the issue is second guessing to phrase it nicely. KTMs 790 and 890 engines fail, nobody knows when and exactly why. As the majority is low milage it might take a bit of time to surface in full extend (25k to 30k km is the mark based on what effected owners drop. However, can happen earlier too. KTM has declined numerous time to cover for damage leaving their customers sitting on 2-3000€ bills. the percentages you talk about are simply b*llshit and you should know that. Yes, so far not all affected (yet), but the much bigger problem is KTMs handling of the issues. Most buyers get along with the fact that it failes. But then the rally starts and often enough owners have to pay the bill. Even if KTM agrees to cover the parts owners are left with 2000€ labor bill. I do not understand why you take a stand for KTM on that. If you have done some research you must have noticed the lack of customer service and here you talk pink clouds, why?. If you did not research around it why talk about it at all?
There should be some type of CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT::::My 2023 KTM 890 Adventure S has just short of 3,000 miles on the clock NOTHING but PROBLEMS,, maybe I just got the big FAT LEMON out of the bunch!!! DON’T buy KTM!!
Well said! There are more stories than cases, keyboard warriors makes sure of that. That's the backside of this internet. So many "experts" who never owned the bike (or what ever) in question, but heard about it from a bla bla. And why is it that it's the far lefties that complains about chinese bikes? I will probably get some comments on that! Thank you for this film. Well done sir!
How do you know that they are "far lefties?" What is your evidence for that statement? Please don't introduce politics into this channel, as far as l can tell the B.Wheeler, quite rightly, keeps it apolitcal.
