Labor Day HEMI - Part 3 (P0016 Timing REPAIR) 

I dont know how hard it is to get the oil pan off but it probably would have been worth it to retrieve the broken pieces of the guide and make the rest of the job easier.

What are the chances that the guide debris has collected in the pan or worse on the oil pickup? I had this happen on an older engine with teflon coated cam and crank gears (aka old school). I would have removed the pan just to be safe.

This happens fairly often on overhead cam engines, especially Ford modular engines. Ford tech has a video on this and demonstrated the plastic chain tensioner will break apart and a piece will get caught between the chain and gear causing the camshaft to ADVANCE. My concern is all the broken plastic bits are still in the oil pan blocking half of the oil pickup screen…

That far into it I’d drop the front diff, drop the pan, replace the oil pump with Hellcat pump. Inspect the oil control valve for metal as well. The owner needs to change the oil every 6000 miles maximum.

I know you don't want to pull that pan, but it is advisable to do so. I pull pans on all Fords with trashed guides, especially after seeing the pickup plugged solid with plastic pieces. This engine won't be any different... That plastic went somewhere! I'm sure we all short-cutted on the first timing jobs, but after seeing the issues caused by reduced oil pressure, it pays to do it all. Of course, without a lift, I wouldn't enjoy pulling a pan on my back. Thanks for bringing us along on this repair. As others have mentioned FordTechMakuloco, he showed how in the Fords, the broken pieces actually jam under the cam gear, I believe your broken pieces fell in at the crank gear, with the same results.

"That'd have been nice Chrysler"....something I say almost every time I work on my Ram and Jeep.

Hi Ivan, I thought for sure you would need to drop the pan to replace the pickup tube bolt. Glad you were able to get the bolt installed. Bet there were many expletives uttered during that procedure. 🙂 Hope you and your family have a safe and Happy Labor Day.

I've tried to explain to my employer a couple of times how regular timely maintenance is important and will save them money and reduced down time, and he has gotten a little better but I think it was the expense of two vehicles needing premature engine rebuilds back to back rather than my conversation with him

Ford Tech Makuloco had a good demonstration video on how a Ford 5.4 3-valve could skip the camshaft forward by ingesting broken pieces of timing guides. I feel like that is what happened here. He placed a piece of plastic in in between the chain and camshaft sprocket and rotated the engine. After the piece passed out the other side, the cam was advanced 1 tooth.

That oil pickup O-ring situation makes me nervous. I would have at least replaced the O-ring but I feel like you can't be sure you are getting it aligned just right. Obviously that O-ring stands between you and engine failure...

I turned blue holding my breath while you removed and reinstalled that pickup tube bolt. As for the comments regarding the oil pan removal: It's a 4 wheel drive and the pan would have been additional expense that, in my opinion, wasn't worth it. The plastic wouldn't have hurt much and it, along with the aluminum powder from the tensioner, would have been picked up and filtered in the last year of driving. Any remaining in the pan would have drained with an oil change. If it were my truck, I would have left the pan on with one more oil change. Thanks, Ivan

I did a '70s Nissan/Datsun Bluebird back in the late '90s that had about a third of a shopping bag full of metal swarf in the sump from the chain guides. It sounded like someone planing a 2x4 as it pulled in. The single mum was so poor, I got the chain, sprockets, guides, and tensioner from the wreckers and rtv'd the thing back together for free. She gave me a few great thank you's for it over the years. The thing got shunted by a truck in late 2002. Unfortunately she then got a $500 Ford...

Not what i expected 🙂 Great case Ivan, thanks for sharing it

love the cliff hangers lol. It's satisfying when you see broken timing components , it just confirms everything lol

“Skinny fingered reach around move” Bahaha im sure if I wasn’t watching this and my wife heard that there would definitely be questions 😂😂😂 Awesome job Ivan 👍👍👍

I just bought a longer bolt to pull the damper in but I live a few blocks from Menards too. Great series. Thanks for posting. Steve

You should have dropped the oil pan, it's a PITA but there's almost guaranteed to be a bunch of broken plastic and aluminium dust in there from the destroyed chain guide.

Good diagnosis determining it was a mechanical issue. With the timing cover off we see the damaged part. It is good someone makes a metal backed guide, so if it fails again (assuming it lasts before the vehicle goes to the crusher), at least you will hear the chain run along the metal and it shouldn't be as loose as this one was.

Where did all the debris from the guide go?

Quick question .. all that worn metal wouldn't that be floating around in the oil and possibly be trapped in the pickup tube ?

Ivan, your videos - especially this one - give me the encouragement to think through a problem I have with my OBD1 330,000 mileage ’93 Protégé. My Basic Electricity 101 was in college early 60s. Since then, I haven’t done much more electricity-wise than change a light bulb, except the last 9 months I’ve been studying automotive electronics intensely, watched many videos on the subject, purchased Pico tools for back probing and practiced soldering. Although I don’t have a shop - I work out in the weather, including the 100 deg Texas - and I don’t have the range of tools you have, and parts are hard to come by, I shall persevere. I thank you more than I can say.

Your the Boss. You should've videoed you threading the oil pickup bolt.

A piece of the broken guide fell off, got between the crank gear and chain, and caused the chain to jump one tooth on the crank.

Only problem I have is, where has all the plastic and metal gone from the guide ? I would have definitely, removed the pan as a minimum and stripped the pump and strainer.

Ivan, it must feel great finding an obvious problem confirming the scope's diagnosis. Looking forward to hearing this truck purr in Part 4. Thanks for Sharing!

I love the diag part. The repair part makes my back hurt just watching it. 😁

The plot thickens! I'm invested in this like a Netflix series lol

While we are all waiting for Part 4, I would like to say Happy Labor Day, Ivan!

Whenever a guide or tensioner falls apart there is the chance of trash in the pan... been bit by the 'just do the kit' before, on one with nylon teeth broken off (obvious in retrospect). Hard choice whether to pull the pan... depends on if you can do it without removing the engine, I'm sure. Biggest lesson here, folks... don't neglect your oil!

I would have removed the oil pan, cleaned it out and cleaned the oil pickup tube. I would have made the customer get a new oil pump, oil pick up o ring and timing cover crank shaft seal. I understand that the customer was driving for a year like that but there are for sure aluminum flakes in that engine. Realistically that engine should be disassembled, cleaned, checked over for scoring, bearings should be replaced. What you did was a bandaid.

When you had the front cover off you should have drained the oil and inspected the pan and pick up tube for debris

WOW!!! That is crazy. I just picked up a 2011 ram 1500 with a p0016.

All that metal and nylon has to be in the oil pan which in my opinion would warrant removal. Even though there is a screen at the end of the pickup tube it could be restricting flow.

Getting that oil pump installed, it must have been so tempting to use a Big Friendly Hammer.

If you still have the old oil filter, cut it open and see how much junk is on it. You can also drain the oil and check the oil pick up tube w/ the Boroscope camera!

I tie a piece of fishing line to the sump tube bolt. That way if it falls you can retrieve it.

Wow Ivan, Labor day special for sure! Nice work

As a home mechanic, this repair totally convinced me this is something I should never attempt. Ivan, you deserve every penny of eight hours labor, probably more. It is a pleasure to watch your matriculas, careful, step-by-step, analysis and repair.

The impact wrench looks a lot like the $99 avidpower I got from Amazon. Been really impressed, great for the shade tree mechanic like me. Used it when I changed my timing belt.

It's a miracle that timing chain guide did not split! Did all those plastic and metal filings get out with the oil change? As you predicted, it advanced a tooth. All should be good now, but I'm a bit anxious for Part 4 🙂

Also change the O ring on pick up.

I would be changing the oil pump. From previous experience(s) some motors come back with phaser and cam codes from low oil pressure due to the amount of metal circulated AND check your thrust bearings BEFORE terdown.

Hi, I don't recall seeing the pump pickup O ring seal on the refit.

Ivan great case study and video series - thank you! I was sure it was going to be a seized phaser. Great job! Paul (in MA)

This really is like General Hospital for mechanics! Or is it like sands through an hourglass? Tune tomorrow, same time , same channel! Nice Going Ivan!

Don't know if this was already mentioned but easiest way to install the harmonic balancer is to have a longer bolt to start the balancer and then switch it for OEM bolt once it's half way installed. A similar two bolt process is used attached crank arms to titanium bottom brackets using titanium bolts on bicycles, but for a different reason. Titanium bolts are not as strong as steel bolts and tend to gall if torqued into titanium threads. The process is to torque the crank arms on the Ti BB using steel bolts, remove the steel bolt and replace it with the Ti bolt using anti seize, but at a lower torque. Yes. you could just use the steel crank bolts, you you miss out on the miniscule weight saving so important on high end bikes. 👍

The thrust bearings can be damaged hammering on the balancer, use the correct tool

The GM LS engines are the same with the oil pump pickup tube bolt.

Had the same issue on gm 5.3. To get the crank pulley and dampner on I gentle tapped in on with an air hammer. Worked great and easy. Just make sure it is straight when starting.

Maybe this’ll teach “the customer” to change his oil a little more frequently ! Lol nice work Ivan from Pike county! You need a lift ;)

IMHO lack of oil changes would not have caused the tensioner to break in half. Luckily removing the timing chain cover doesn't seem like a major undertaking. Design flaw in the tensioner itself. Thanks Ivan for showing us, I own a 2019 RAM and hopefully Stellantis has updated the timing setup.

This is a great series. Scope for the win as always 👍

Great series, Ivan! Your diagnosis (the science) was spot on again. The scope said that the cam was advanced by about a tooth and it was. Two mysteries remain however: how does a cam slip forward (instead of backward) and why do manufacturers use plastic for the chain guides and tensioners??? (Also, I agree with the other commenters with concerns of the plastic chain guide fragments floating around in the oil pan.) 😄

Even if this doesn't fix it (which it will). It definitely needed the chain replaced. Great job as always.

Ivan from Chrysler's point of veiw it's not seviceability but how to package a componet to reduce labor cost when the vehicle is being assembled remember a lot cars and trucks are built in less than a hour from start to finish . They put profit over serviceability which all vehicle manufactors do since the model T thanks great video and as always thanks for sharing !!

'IF' the Filter did it's job, then it may still be ok with a pan and pickup clean and oil pump inspection or replacement. Yes this is a band-aid at best without checking the oil pump etc. Otherwise 'Buyer beware' this is a fine example of a potentially now working car being sold on to some unsuspecting buyer who doesn't know the history on it. Ivan - would you want to buy this in this condition knowing what you know?????

Happy Labor Day

I have a friend like this. Never does his maintenance. Continues to drive his car when something is wrong. Then never does the full fix, always cutting corners. He has owned 7 vehicles over the last 20 years, all having catastrophic issues from not changing his oil, as well as many issues from continually driving with misses and timing issues. In those same 20 years, I still own the same truck I bought new 21 years ago by simply doing the proper maintenance and fixes when needed.

Change your oil folks!

I love it please continue to keep it up and coming back together 😉

Should have added the results on this video. We all know it is going to run good. No suspense. Right, right, right? Or, will it? Great videos. Keep them coming.

I was worried that you weren't going to show the two guides. In fact, I was worried that we might never know for sure what was going on with this truck. But, as usual, you pulled it out.

I would have pulled the oil pan to do a full inspection and cleaning of the bottom end. I also would replace the water pump since it was disturbed by pulling the timing cover. I don't like to pull parts that are old and reuse them especially water pumps that may start leaking next week or 6 months down the road.

I would had pulled that pan to clean out the chunks, I have seen oil pickups full of plastic debris from these guides breaking. It may have been driving for years like this, but what if next month a piece clogs up the pickup and seizes the engine... who is responsible for that mess...when you drained the oil pieces at the front of pan could had slide around..

Cliffhanger ending!

I think that Auto Zone now has a Harmonic Balancer kit that has the longer bolt. I ran into this issue with the Mopar 4.7L earlier this year.

I would still put on new cam phaser but that’s just my nature 🤓 you usually hear those guides during cold start ups but the hemi is too noisy to hear the chain rattle. And yeah I would drop the pan too 👊🏻

Somehow i think the owner got his moneys worth out of that old tensioner lol 😀 I'm really surprised it wasn't damaged more. Nice impact tool, make a note of the day it arrived, see how long it behaves itself :-D

My royobi has that pulse option. Pretty cool

I like these engine teardown videos keep making I like all your videos From Alesky Finis 😊

great video IVAN,my gut feeling after you showed the chain guide,bingo! But then i thought where's all the crap aluminum? Oil filter? pump screen,maybe blowing out the pickup tube might have helped the plastic parts to the drain hole?But some damage is all ready done no doubt.NOT YOUR FAULT.If the guy was on-top of his servicing this MITE have been avoided.Your gut instinct about advancing etc was right.A lot of your viewers know these motors,and they still watch your videos.That speaks volumes to your skill level,and ability to explain your findings and procedures.Ford could maybe improve this design.thank you IVAN

That's a spectacular amount of wear on that guide, the whole plastic guide then most of the alloy bracket, the oil will have been useless with the amount of metal ground up in the oil, if it had a leaky oil filter the engine will have been ruined, Another few miles and that would have been scrap,

To get the crank pulley on easier I use a small torch. Heat up the pulley shaft. Then while it's hot slide it into the crankshaft. Works every time. Once it's hot it expands and will slide on easily.

That oil pump pickup bolt is very similar to a Chevy LS engine. If you use some fishing line with a loop, you can slip it over the head of the bolt, pull on the loop of the fishing line and you will be able to retrieve the bolt. I've done this on the infamous LS engine where they use an Oring instead of a gasket on the pickup tube. The Oring looses it tension and the oil pressure lowers. When this happens, the variable cam actuator can't work properly and it sets a traction control, stabilization code on the dash. It took me quite a while to figure out what the issue was. If you revved up the engine quickly, the VVT worked. If you did it slowly, it wouldn't advance and it would set the code.

Replaced a timing chain on an 05 Chevy Suburban. Chevy designed the pickup tube similar. Yes, I did it without removing the oil pan. Wasn't easy. We were chasing a low oil pressure issue when hot. It wasn't the O-ring on the pickup tube. It wasn't the sending unit. It wasn't the oil pump. That is when I found the warn chain. I never found out what was the cause. I'm thinking bad cam bearings as it also had a lifter tick. The customer didn't want to go any farther with repairs. *EDIT* Remembered I had a short video on the loose chain. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-pfKS49NhZbI.html

Ls motors are the same with the bolts on the oil pump

No surprise here, just another timing chain job. Happy Labor Day!

You mentioned the engine sounded terrible in the first video,I would sell him everything inside timing cover, CYA! The phazer may be thrashed too.

I did one recently. So the way I ended up getting around it was super gluing the bolt to my socket to get it back in. I dropped it a few times before I came up with the solution. You know how bad timing issues are on any Chrysler product. Or 5.4 Fords. Lol. And as far as debris in the oil pan, never been a issue on the many I've done.

just when an engine shuts down it can kick backwards slightly due to a cylinder being on the compression stroke but not reaching top dead center and at that instant it's possible that a cam can jump backwards on the chain. I would also imagine that perhaps if you were driving along at a pretty good clip at high RPM and slammed on the brakes the tranny upshifted such that the crankshaft slowed down much quicker than the camshaft it the latter could also advance but true that is definitely *not* the common failure.

Oil pickup screen on my v6 4.0L explorer was almost blocked with plastic debris from the guides. I check it every other oil change with the reman engine. The 4.0 has an easy little bottom oil pan to remove.

Reminds me of chain guides on Eurotrash. Your diag skills are top notch!

I cant believe you got the oil pick up bolt back in, how many hours and curse words ?

I think that correlation waves form shulbe provide by manufactures. And reputable sources like Mitchell and all data have them on the records. Ivan the analysis is great thanks

So what about all the debris and metal fillings in the pan/oil pump? Think this engine needs a lot more work at the very least that engine pan needs to come off and be cleaned out, pickup tube cleaned, Oil pump inspected for wear, new oil and filter.....

Plot twist the aftermarket Chinese chain was assembled one link off😁

Is there a gasket between the oil pump and the block? Just wondering didn't see you put anything on

It’s hard to tell how much extra time it took you finagling with that oil pump. I think it might’ve been better to remove the oil pan?

I bought a first gen Durango with what sounded like a lifter tick and to my surprise it had ate up a guide and made it halfway through the bolt. I couldn’t hear any grinding noises. That one had three chains and the same oil pump set up.

I would have dropped oil pan regardless of how long those pieces were in their and regardless of how long it took, if customer approved all work im sure they would have wanted that done i know i would have, do it right the first time, either way good work ivan but i agree with others you shouldnt have taken that kind of short cut this is the kind of stuff that can get you in hot water taking short cuts to save time or work.

haha - "reach around move" - you've been influenced by Eric O, obviously... Thanks Ivan - what a great series

All the garbage is in the oil pan , so take the oil pan off. All those chunks will be in the oil pickuup.

I would have dropped the pan to clean all the debris.✌️

Nice work Ivan.

New o ring probably would have been a good idea. GM’s are famous for getting hard and not sealing.

Where are all the pieces of the slide? In the oil pan?

Over time, with todays advanced engines, I reluctantly have tended to favor belts over chains. Replacing the belt, tensioner and any idler pulleys according to recommended intervals are (IMHO), performance over the lifetime of the belt, is better. Also, always replace a belt driven water pump as well.

Not sure about advance auto, but Ive rented an installer from autozone several times. Works perfect for pushing the balancer back on.

Morning from Texas

Threaded rod, body washers, and some nuts works wonders.