Labor Day HEMI - Part 2 (P0016 Low Power DIAG) 

Your stress level has to be through the roof. Love the troubleshooting . Dealer told the previous owner same issue but not as bad was the truck needed a camshaft/ crankshaft so he sold the truck and we bought it to wrench. Currently we haven’t done any readings to it. I’ve watched your videos before you troubleshoot. Like I do being a retired low voltage tech. You actually make me come to life again because it wasn’t by choice to retire from the field I loved doing. Thank you. You proudly earned a subscriber.

Dang Ivan, with all those screens and wires and probes your shop is beginning to more and more resemble a hospital intensive care unit! ;-) Nice work! 🙂

I think the clue is at 4:38 - 4:41 where you change direction and rotate the engine backwards, you can see on the left of the cam trigger wheel endoscope the chain/sprocket moves a few degrees but the trigger wheel doesn't, suggesting the VCT phaser isn't locked or there is some kind of play in it. With the engine running the oil pressure is always forcing the VCT to max advance (park) position when the solenoid isn't being driven, so if there is any wear in the phaser you will get some "extra" travel in the advance direction. You measured 38deg difference between park and full retard, is there a factory spec for what the range should be? Also when the VCT was working in part 1 the desired vs actual error was different in park and full retard, suggesting the range of movement is bigger than it should be - if the timing had jumped a tooth or something, both endstop positions would have moved by the same amount. For the crank signal, the waveform you got looks like a newer sensor type used on auto stop/start engines, where the sensor is able to detect direction of rotation, so the PCM can track the engine position on shutdown as it stops and rocks backwards. On a restart it already knows the crank position the engine stopped at and is fully synchronised and able to start injecting immediately, so you get a faster start than if you had to dead crank the engine for ~180deg to see enough cam/crank pattern to figure out where you are. On these type of sensors the low pulse width is constant regardless of engine speed, and depends only on direction of rotation - ones I have seen usually have 45us low pulse going forwards and 90us pulse when engine rotating backwards. The crank trigger wheel teeth are narrower for these type of sensors - the sensors have 2 hall effects in them side by side, so they can detect which one sees the tooth first to figure out which direction the engine is rotating

IVAN, you are a master of your trade. It's fun watching you solve the problem.

The difference in those scope readings was a good catch. As US Naval Aviation Electrician we had to ensure our aircraft serial numbers matched the wiring schematics in the publications especially on the older aircraft. 🇺🇸🇨🇦🇺🇸

Ivan, this has to be one of my favorite video, coz of how extensive research you did and perseverance pay off, having good known waveform from your neighbors that heartily agreed to let you have the stuff you needed! I'm sure he would be watching this lol this is deep video of the research portion how to measure and borescope the cams etc. Wonderful. Looking forward to part 3!!

Good morning Ivan, this one is a real head scratcher. Most mechanics would have lost there minds by now! I see you are up for the challenge, let's go! Can't wait to see what you find.

You probably know this anyway, however at 19:35 the alphanumeric stamp (PA66-GF25) its the material its made from, Polyamides 66 with glass fiber at 25%. Thanks to AVE for the education regarding this. Nice video as always Iven, great work !

A backfire could make the timing jump backwards. I know on some older engines if you used a ratchet to turn it in the opposite direction you could actually hear the chain jump teeth but I can't remember what pile of crap I did that experiment on. Lol

good morning, thank you for fueling my insomnia

This is gonna be good, what is going on behind the timing chain cover, it's like General hospital for mechanics, thanks Ivan

PA 66 GF 25 means Nylon (polyamide) 6/6 glass filled 25% just a description of the plastic material. Can't wait for part 3!

What a great diag video this is, don't forget to check all the unrelated parts that has to come off, etc, water pump, fan clutch, belt, hoses if they are old or questionable, replace them too!

Very interesting video. In the old days we would have used timing light to see if the timing mark was jumping all over the place which meant the timing chain was stretched. Gotta watch part 3 now. I did, like some others, see the slack on the chain when you used the dual endoscopes.

Mind boggling! Impressive train of thought, in a particularly weird problem! Not many would keep a sound mind with this one! Well done, Ivan! Part 3 will be the Big Reveal :-)

On the sensors, PA66 is the type of plastic it’s made out of, in this case Polyamide 66, better known as nylon 66. The GF25 is the amount of glass fiber reinforcement in the plastic, in this case it’s 25%. Thank you AvE and his tear downs. 😂

I love the chase of difficult diagnosis but will very be worth at the end. You sir earned a subscriber!

Another great holiday mystery series, Ivan! My guess is that it looks like a weak tensioner based on the slop demonstrated at the beginning of the video (turning the crank and the cam doesn't move for several degrees) and the cam is advanced by a tooth.

The real kicker here is that your double bore scope observations show it to be very close to the known good truck; (with that double notch being very close to the center of you sync notch, just like you explained-- the known good looks like that as well). So I wonder if it's just the VVT throwing off the reading while it's running; and since there is no oil pressure when you checked it with the scopes, it was showing a different reading. I'd almost want to check what the waveforms look like right at startup and see if you can catch it shifting just before the oil pressure builds.

Ivan, I think you have a lot of us fully engaged now! Looking forward to Part 3. Thanks for Sharing!

I am impressed. I used the same technique(boroscope inside the crank sensor hole) to see where the cam notch would position itself with respect to the crankshaft index, about 2 months ago on a land rover Td4. WoW. Thanks Ivan

Ivan, I love the way you make us think! It is great to watcha video that really teaches you something! Thank you!

If so, this would be the first time I'd seen one that advanced. Pretty neat. Thanks Ivan!

I see Ivan in the comments pretending he dosent know what's wrong. When all 4 videos are done and ready to go. Just tell me what's wrong man lol Looking forward to the repairs

Worked on advanced engine technologies. We had a test cell with ground issues. Sensor inputs were erratic. Wrote software to analyze the plausibility of the sensor inputs. If the sensor inputs were not plausible, predicted signals were used. If the sensor signals became plausible, they were used... Kalman filters...

Eric O said that on Chrysler you have to use Mopar

I bought the Teslong camera on your recommendation. It's excellent! I used it to check for oil leaks on the cam seals for my Montero.

FYI, your Amazon link for the Thinktool is showing as unavailable. Great and very informative videos. Waiting for the result in Part 3.

Excellent diagnosis and presentation as always 👍🏻

Yeah so I guess I called that on the last one, need to go in. But, I would have liked to see you look into the cam phaser to check out how it operates and possible failure modes.

Great video. We know to double check our sources. Thanks for posting this. Steve

I remember reading never rotate crank backwards. And that was with a degree wheel years ago on a 318 C.I....

ohh noo! parts required, hopefully the problem will be solved, this is a true labor intensive day job!

I think sometimes more data just confuses the situation to the point of overthinking it, after 30 years in the electronics business I mostly go on limited targeted data and 85% intuition. Results in about 95% success rate.

Great use of the borescopes . In the late 1960's Pontiac used nylon cam gears and they would not last . You could take off the distributor cap and watch the rotor while moving the crank back and forth . There were many jumped and snapped timing chains . I think Buick also had issues on their V8's as well .

The tailgate talk is pretty good too (comments). Thanks for putting in the extra effort on the diag. The sensor need to be replaced anyway because of rust jacking. It would be nice to demo the chain when it is apart and see the issue at the chain.

Ivan I'm on the edge of my seat literally in a power chair, lol! Part 3?? Ugh! Cant wait for it!!!

The only way I can think that would have gotten advanced like this, if there is enough slack in the timing chain. And that would be, someone at some point was working on it, and for some reason they needed to turn over the engine by hand, and they turned it backwards instead of forward, causing the chain to jump a tooth or two in the advanced direction. I always try to be aware of an engines normal rotational direction for this very reason.

Good video Ivan! I wish all manufacturers would publish normal waveforms in their service information. Some do but most don’t. I didn’t see the transmission type of your problem vehicle. If it was a manual transmission I could see the possibility of a loose chain jumping forward if the truck was parked on a hill in gear and rolled back. Otherwise I’m wondering if a internal issue in the phaser could be the issue. I know on VW’s if the phaser solenoid breaks the timing over advances beyond normal spec.

The thickness can be the sensor, but the shift should not be affected by the bolt angle, that would only affect where you plug in and only be a problem if the slight shift makes plugging it in a problem. I would take the timing cover off, align the marks and do a visual inspection, the fact all this testing, research, and new parts time that is easier said than done on this vehicle.

favorite channel on RU-vid. Great holiday weekend videos!

Dang..this is AWESOME Ivan... Just so you know, I had recently replaced a cam sensor in a 01 Dakota 4.7L with a OEM MOPAR sensor rite from the dealer and on that sealed Mopar plastic bag it was labeled made in China. 😂 However, it did fix the intermittent problem. Oh man...So it was a different waveform afterall..Dang.! 😳🤦‍♂🤯 I'll have to search a couple waveform groups to see if that new waveform you have now is out there...if not I was hoping you would share it. Ok, I'm looking forward to your pt 3 now. It's just after midnight now west coast time so it's Labor day Monday... Where's that video.?! Lol Thanks for the head spinner case study. This one is Awesome. 🤠🥴😄

Man, this gets even more interesting. Did someone install an aftermarket sensor? My guess is polarity in sensor is backwards or trash. And distance absolutely matters on those sensors. I’ve experienced that first hand.

That is very nice of your neighbor

I smelled gun powder from a parts cannon... Just kidding, damn that was a hard one ... I was clueless!

Can't wait to see the visual on this one! Nice diag Ivan!

ATS fella had a issue with sensors inverting the signals, due to the camshaft being magnetised. The new replacement shaft was even more worse, so he degaussed the camshaft, had it installed and sensors then worked correctly correcting the inverted signals. maybe worth a check to see if crankshaft has become magnetic.

Lots of these trucks have had the cam and lifters replaced. “Hemi tick” problem. My bet is mechanic missed getting the timing correct by one tooth. It wouldn’t be the first time you didn’t get the full history on a vehicle! I would cut open the old filter you took off and look for metal flakes. Buddy of mine has a 2015 torn down right now and it had lots of flakes in the filter media. Ruined two of the VDS lifters so it had a misfire and a light knock. Cutting open the filter is a simple diagnostic that can tell you a lot about the Hemi cam and lifters. Interesting that the cam and lifters look pretty good though the cam lift is down about 0.025”.

Great video. Have a great Labor Day.

Visually it looked correct with the bore scopes though. Electrically it looks off but mechanically it looked correct.

Hey Ivan, before i watch part 2, I've had a similar case with a 17 Hyundai accent, the timing was over advanced, it was caused by a dirty vvti solenoid. I cleaned it up, fresh oil and it went back to normal. The ECU retards the cams at idle and as the duty cycle decreases so does the retarding angle. When the solenoid got clogged it couldn't retard the phaser as usual, so it set a timing code.

One thing all Chrysler Hemi owners need to do religiously is change the oil and filter. Those engines are notorious for valve train issues (and last I saw the Multiple Displacement System (MDS) is high on the list of possible causes for the lifter/cam destruction issue more than a few of those engines have suffered).

Another good case study thanks for sharing.

That sucks that it made you bark at the wrong tree with the ckp signal and wasted a lot of time. It’s Very critical to compare the signal with the same year for reassurance and peace of mind. I’d ohm out the vvt first just in case and proceed to go after the mechanical part but the scope data definitely is enough for me to go in there.

I believe some of those crank sensors operate with a clearance of .005 . So if there is rust and crud on the mounting surface , NOT good .

Great job, you have some skills

It wouldn't be the first time I have heard of a loose chain jumping during an engine rollback while shutting off.

I find it odd that a single short timing chain with just two sprockets would have this issue. Compare that with a 3UR FE 5.7 Tundra engine that has 4 cam shafts and I think 3 chains and 4 cam phasers. How Toyota makes that work and reliably as well says something. The RAM 5.7 is way way less complicated in design. You would think this would make it more reliable.

On my 2009 Hemi, it was a spun bearing. Needed a warranty engine. The MFers took a month (this was years ago.)

You do get the interesting ones.

My best friend’s boyfriend have a 2014 blue Dodge Ram. 5.7. But I don’t have a scope 🙁. Very interesting video !

Go to the Pick-n-Pull get the sensor

The timing chain sprocket on the crank has 23 teeth.. 360/ 23 = 15.6 degrees per tooth. 27:40 ... You show that your known good zero is -4 degrees, and the problem truck is -19 from your reference. So that's exactly the 15 degrees difference that a jumped tooth would show. But I agree that it's strange that it jumped back a tooth instead of forwards, that is very odd, but the math seems to check out that it's exactly a tooth off.

Good morning from Alesky 😊

These may be one of those that have the tsb timing chain tensioner. It's plastic and can break.

Think t might be time to start stripping the engine down Ivan, don't envy you that one...good luck F.

Hi Ivan...try to shift the sensor fo 180 degrees, also diagnostic Dan had similar problem with Bosch sensor, on third try with other brand, success.

Car complaints and look up Hemi to find the class action about cams self destruction. Class action has been filed

If the stop pin in the cam phaser shears, it will allow the cam to over advance due to the return spring pressure. I suspect this could be the problem. I would definitely suspect the phaser before the chain, as that is the only real mechanical part that forces the cam to advance (return to previous position after being retarded by the VCT solenoid). Especially since the VCT is working properly, the engine isn't making any real chain noise, and is advanced. You've about eliminated everything else, and as Sherlock Holmes (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle) said, "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

Story of my week. Wrong parts for different year model making me go in the wrong direction.

Even with all the information gathered to date, and the evidence pointing to a mechanical timing issue; the probability of the chain jumping forward or the cam advancing is low and the actual issue and cause is still unknown. In any case, the evidence is saying it is a mechanical issue, not electronic that requires timing cover removal to visually inspect and hopefully find the issue. The cause would be a bonus, but at this point in time actually repairing the vehicle is the priority.

I made the right call that’s right now

I'm holding comments till the cover comes off, cause in part 1, I made the comment that it's time to pull the cover. Right after that someone else suggested using the scope to check the in cylinder waveform test. On to part 3.

I'm suspecting this truck has had previous repairs to the camshaft or timing chain. I figure whoever reassembled it may have timed it slightly off, maybe by half a chain link. Because it was only slightly off, it was within the error margin for the PCM. After this new owner put more miles on it, the error became too great. I was looking at photos of the timing chain, and it has a unique marking system with one single mark, then two other marks. The mechanic probably didn't pay attention to the service information and lined the chain up wrong.

HI I'm thinking that the vvt is stuck in the advanced position and the chain and sprocket are worn but ok, the owner neglected to change oil like he should have. Rich

Not a mechanic just a DIY-er. I thought of heard you guys say before that timing chains do not stretch only wear.

Morning Ivan

Hello food for thought here, ive never run into this on a dodge however on gm it is not uncommon too have the crank ring rotate out of sync putting the cam advanced, i do believe thats what happened here, thanks for your vids and good luck

Can’t wait

I'm curious, could this off timing be confirmed using an in cylinder pressure transducer place in the front cylinders of each bank?

Isn’t I possible on shutdown that an engine can kick backward on a compression stroke? That means a loose timing chain can jump advanced a tooth or two.

15 deg is 1/24 of a circle… I’m wondering if the engine was rotated backward briefly (backfire? rocking to get unstuck?) and jumped 1 or 2 teeth in the ‘unusual’ direction… how many teeth are on the driven cam gear?

What wow man that’s crazy

I am curious if possibly the aftermarket crank sensors are also part of the problem I would like to see borrow your neighbors Craig sensor and put it in that truck and cam sensor and see what it does then you can just tell him you needed a truck to go up to the store for a while

I still suspect that there is something very wrong with the timing set. Either the phaser is shot, or the timing chain has way too much slop. Won't know for sure until we see it. In any case, it's time to roll up your sleeves and get dirty Ivan. But experience suggests that when a timing chain gets too loose, the chain will commonly skip during its normal rotation. In that case, the chain would skip a tooth and in effect, retard the cam timing. But there is the odd case where a momentary starter bump or backfire or manual backward rotation of the crank could allow the chain to skip a tooth the other way, thus advancing the cam timing. Saw that happen once on an old Dodge 318 ci engine. I can't wait to see what the actual failure is in part 3! Good stuff Ivan.

go to the used car lot and ask to drive a 2014 than steal the cam sensor or bring the truck to you shop and get a good reading.

The proof is going to be when the timing cover removed. That old design crank waveform threw you off in a loop.

No in cylinder pressure transducer?🤔

FWIW "Diagnose Dan" found a specific Bosch crank sensor part number were all bad out of the box, they were VR sensors and the coil was connected backwards internally so it inverted the waveform. Of all the aftermarket parts you'd expect to be able to trust, Bosch has to be near the top. The advanced cam timing is a real head scratcher though. The slop in the cam drive and the racket that it's making when running certainly suggest tensioner or guide failure, I wonder if a chunk of guide plastic could have been eaten through the chain and sprockets and caused almost a whole crank revolution of retard so it now appears advanced? Would likely have mashed the valves if this is an interference engine though.

Engine dieseled on shutdown. Probably overheated. ran backwards and jumped the chain

Wonder if it could of advanced while it was turning off…? When removing cam sprockets, just a little bit of rotation can cause it to spin rapidly due to the lobe shape/spring pressure. Maybe all the chain slop caused it to advance as the engine was about to stop and the cam just accelerated off the peak of the lobe.

Could backfire cause the chain to jump backwards?

At 31:04 "Let's pop it in". You, being you, I'm surprised you didn't meter it first.

If you want to learn engine diagnostics, what’s the best way to get started?

It really has to be one jumped tooth, because 15 degrees goes into 360 exactly 24 times. I'm assuming there are 24 teeth?

Ivan just a quick question why have you not updated to Pico 7 was just wondering if there was a reason

Again...more plastic internal parts that always fail and the OEM replacement kits are upgraded to all metal. Now I wonder why they don't build them that way from the beginning?

Part 3 hurryyyyyyy!!!!!!!!

Seems like a diagnose Dan video with his cam sensor video he did had 3 or 4 bad ones in a row

Yep that’s how to fix it. With rock auto dorman parts