15 years ago, I crossed the approach path at LEX, a class C airport, during my private checkride in a 172. I got yelled at by the controller, immediately apologized, and followed their instructions precisely, all with the examiner watching silently. I then finished the rest of the checkride like nothing happened. I passed. Attitude is everything.
Did you fly into the C airspace without contacting the controller? Or did you simply cross the approach path outside of the airspace? I find it hard to believe that a DPE wouldn't immediately fail you for busting airspace.
@@Mike_294 I didn’t bust the airspace. I was departing LEX, and I crossed the approach path when I turned to follow my flight plan for the checkride. I believe I turned too soon, and I was still in their airspace. I don’t remember the exact details at this point.
The Controller has no business yelling at you. After you passed you should have asked for an apology... Controllers have to realize that solving a problem is more important than being right..
@@ainemairead4542 the controller probably reacted in an angry tone to convey the urgency and danger of the situation. I dont think asking for an apology would be appropriate nor in the pilots best interest, unless coddling their hurt feelings was their primary agenda.
There was plenty done. We don't even know the final outcome, but even if he doesn't loose his license, that official reprimand for busting class B will forever be a big blot on his logbook.
If there was that much sickness and need of the bathroom for the last hour he should have landed an hour earlier. No excuse for his actions. Kudos to ATC for remaining professional and working through a difficult situation.
Landed where, mesquite? Of coarse they were way past that, so the airforce base, Nellis? She should have given him some kind of exception long before. I don't if she was working an arrival stream or departure stream, but this Las Vegas, it is no Hub.
@@phillipwhite8463 Why didn't the pilot notify the controller about the kid in the plane being airsick and needing the bathroom? I feel THAT might very well have changed the situation somewhat....
Agree. Very simple, actually. Extreme nausea and airsickness is something that will impair the pilot's ability to fly safely and, therefore, constitutes a medical emergency. "Las Vegas Approach - Centurion three-one-november-romeo declaring a medical emergency. Request nearest available airport." Pilot then squawks 7700 and at that point ATC is no longer there to provide clearance but assistance. From every single PPC training manual "An aircraft in distress has priority over all other aircraft!" Better to do that than to be in a position to petition the FAA for recovery of your PPC.
Regardless of whether he thought he had a clearance or not, it's not the pilot's place to demand one and you don't ignore an ATC directive to leave the airspace outside of declaring an emergency. There's no excuse for his behavior or his apparent lack of understanding about the limits of flight following and how Bravo airspace works. While I applaud ATC's move to educate vs violate, this was more than a misunderstanding or honest mistake, he willfully ignored ATC direction to depart the bravo. I hope he got more than a talking to...he needs a serious 709 ride at the very least.
@@yechezkelmendoza5698 I don’t know about revocation, but suspension and re-educational courses would have been a much better route depending on if there were previous transgressions by the pilot. It makes an example of the pilot and still shows that the FAA is human.
@@cdtaylor7732 I can agree. I fly a Cessna. I always obey air traffic just as if they are high ranking military officers. I served 4 years in the marine corps infantry. I became a pilot as a civilian. I always thought of ATC as a high ranking person as the simplest way to avoid trouble. Ya, I agree. CERT revocation is excessive. Definitely have him go through classes and face remprimands is more reasonable
Agree. I'm not a pilot myself, and while I can sympathize with the pilot getting flustered with the situation, he handled it inappropriately. Short of declaring an emergency he doesn't get to decide he's special and the protocols don't apply, no matter how inconvenient. His inability to keep cool and communicate effectively, or to fly commonly used corridors outside the Bravo due to "terrain", suggests he can use some additional training as a pilot.
30 years as an airline pilot, 45 years flying. He should have a violation on his record and have some extensive training before flying again, if ever. Totally unprofessional behavior.
"Totally unprofessional behavior." What the hell are your taking about? Number one he is NOT a professional, he is flying Cessna 210 probably Part 91. ATC is the professional one, she is the one getting paid. I bet you this guy doesn't even need a license, who the hell is going to stop him if he does not have permission from the FAA. I just hear a story about some gentlemen who was an instructor/ ran the airport in Ulysses Kansas. After he retired they discovered he never had a license, he had signed off hundreds of people for rating and what not. I can go buy a plane and fly it how ever I want and NO one is going to check my license, NO ONE.
Phillip, why are you so angry? Professional behavior has nothing to do with whether you are paid or not. We, as pilots, should always be demonstrating professional behavior, especially in congested Bravo airspace. He was jeopardizing the lives of many folks. So, either he’s an a@@hole (pretty sure that’s it), or he is seriously lacking in knowledge which necessitates his license being pulled and the need for retraining.
@@phillipwhite8463 Professionalism is not about pay, it's about performance. Attitudes like yours will someday have an ignorant, angry public demanding an end to private flying and a Commercial, Instrument, Multi engine license the minimum price of admission to the skies. I've flown several different Centurions, from the simple strut braced four seaters of the 1960s to the top of the line pressurized model (which this was), and the higher performance ones especially demand a professional level of piloting, whether getting paid or not. If you're going into the Flight Levels in a turbo or a pressurized, you've got to realize and compensate for the fact you're not as sharp as you feel you are when you come back down. Just another aspect of professionalism.
@@phillipwhite8463 -- As soon as you get your Private Pilot Certificate, you are sharing the airspace with others, many of whom are working their jobs professionally as is ATC. You ARE expected to act professionally, competently, and (most of all) COURTEOUSLY!!!! It is NOT your personal airspace!!!! As for him not needing a license, you are actually allowed on solo cross countries, per Part 91, to do a cross-county flight without your PPC *BUT* your flight plan *MUST* be reviewed and endorsed by your instructor. You will *never* get an endorsement from an instructor to fly or land in Class B. NEVER SIR!!!! As a private pilot, you may file a flight plan that includes Class B but you still need ATC clearance before entering. As for who is going to stop him? What are you? A bank robber? Whoever has the bigger machine gun wins? As for purchasing an aircraft, you are wrong. At the closing for transfer of title of an aircraft in the United States, present in addition to the title company, aviation brokers, representatives from the finance company, is also (you DIDN'T guess it), the FAA!!! The Federal Aviation Administration is the government agency that operates under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations which is federal law. You are correct that you do not need a valid pilot's certificate in any category or rating to be the owner of an aircraft. However, as the owner, you are responsible for ensuring nobody operates said aircraft without the required certification to fly that aircraft of that category, class, and (if a type rating is required) type to legally fly. If you violate these regulations just one time, you will likely get a stern letter for the FAA and possibly a fine. The CFR is under Federal law enforcement and repeated violations (in extremely rare cases) could result in heavy fines, arrest, and confiscation of the aircraft. Most frequently this occurs with aircraft carrying drugs attempting to evade authorities. While not legally required, the FAA along with DHS will often do a criminal background check if you want to become the owner of an aircraft here in the U.S.
I don't agree with his attitude but I have no idea why an aircraft on flight following would need clearance into the bravo if they've been talking to ATC the whole time. Approach knows your destination, has your heading altitude and squak Ident. Makes no sense why they would have to request clearance under following. Maybe I'm ignorant because I don't fly into bravos, I fly charlies , but under following it seems redundant and ridiculous to give ATC info they already have. That's like making all ifr flights also get bravo clearance. Maybe I'm in the minority here supporting this guy but I think it's weird to make an aircraft under following to get cleared when they already know he is coming into bravo. Any random VFR flight I could understand but someone on following, give me a break. The controller should have cleared him into the bravo if she was worried about it. She knew exactly where he was and where he was going.
Controller here, if you mess up, I'm gonna call you out on it to make sure you know, but 99% of the time that's gonna be the end of it because more often than not it's not a big deal. If it's a pilot deviation that causes a safety issue, that's a different story. At the end of the day though, we're not sky cops and we just want everyone to be safe up there.
So why was this controller not handling his request? She could have said the magic words, "unable traffic", true or not? She did not. I remember Salt Lake Center violated some guy because he was VFR on top and asked for a hard altitude going back IMC and the controller gave it to the pilot and it caused a separation error. Now because it was a controller who was liked by the management Center went in to screw that pilot, it was total BS, of coarse it would have been turned into the FSDO, I should have called the head FSDO guy at Salt Lake, I knew him well. Now if the management did not like the controller, well he would have been decertified and given patronizing bull crap punishment, I mean remedial training.
@@phillipwhite8463 Couldn't tell you the reason she wanted him clear, odds are it was traffic reasons. All I CAN tell you is that you NEED a clearance from a controller to enter Bravo airspace. He didn't have it, he was in the wrong.
@@phillipwhite8463 - Wow, having heard this guy's attitude and refusal to comply with ATC in a 'B', you're definding him / questioning the controller? The controller does not *need* to give a reason. You cannot refuse to comply with an ATC instruction, by simply saying "negative". Check yourself!
@@droge192 I'm not a pilot, so please enlighten me: Mustn't a controller give a DIRECTION and HEADING to an aircraft? e.g., "turn left heading 90⁰" To me at least, "I need you to leave the B" seems a little ambiguous, and that woman sounded like a total Karen!
Christy, you were very diplomatic in your review of what happened. As a pilot, you know that the one thing drilled into our training is DO NOT GO INTO CLASS B WITHOUT PERMISSION -- PERIOD. If there is an emergency, then tell ATC and again ask. This guy did everything wrong then just went on his merry way as if he were landing in some isolated field, not a very busy Class Bravo. His actions were reckless-- I would have suspended his ticket and at least made him take another checkride. The system is predicated on pilots following rules, not just doing what you want. This guy gets off with a slap on the wrist for a major violation. Think of how many pilots have had much worse punishment from FAA for less serious infractions. Also, what does it say to other pilots who disagree with ATC?
I fly out of North Las Vegas and routinely get bravo clearance. Had this pilot been polite, acknowledged his error and willingness to follow instructions, they would have probably cleared him through. I myself, have never been denied a bravo clearance. That said, if I know the airspace is busy, I usually just skirt the bravo or stay under the bravo shelf.
ATC did an amazing job! It's not an issue of whether or not the controller "should" have let him in or not, it was her airspace to control. Safety could have easily been compromised by this pilots actions. Shout out to the folks at L30!
Yeah, she wasn't just keeping him out for being an asshole. If he can't follow instructions then he has no business being in that airspace. He's a danger to everyone around him.
Goes to show how great controllers are at being partners with pilots to get everyone around this great country. They really deserve medals especially these days with staffing constraints.
Especially with a narcissistic a****** like this guy who could care less about the safety of others and knowing he do it again in a heartbeat, should have had his license yanked at a minimum of six months and a good old-fashioned ass-kicking was an order as well.
I have a lot of sympathy for a pilot that accidentally busts an airspace or makes a mistake but to purposely refuse to obey the orders of the ATC puts a lot of live in danger and shows a disrespect for everyone else's safety, seems like a suspension of some sort is in order.
Yeah i think there should be a maturity requirement for all pilots - like something older than eight years old maturity. Sheesh. This wasn't about a violation of airspace, it was about open defiance to authority. Boy needs a bigger spanking than he got LOL.
They sound like a married couple: "You never talk to me. I didn't tell you that you can do this." "I've been talking with you all this time! What do you want from me?" "Ok, that's it. I'm calling my councilor. You need to call him too." "No, i'm not calling anyone!" "Why?" "I'm flying!" A serious deviation, a child-like tantrum from the guy, but it was pretty funny.
I have no simplify, 1NR! Before COVID, I regularly flew in around the Bravo of LAX quite frequently. One time flying to Catalina, I chose to fly over top the Bravo at 10500. ATC, just as I hit the coastline over Torrance, instructed me to descend to 4500 feet. I told ATC “unable, please give me give 10 miles.” She was very polite and understood why I chose that altitude. At 10500, this gives me three airports in glide ratio half way over water. ATC, is there to HELP keep you safe, and will accommodate when ever possible! So, in 10 miles they cleared me into the Bravo and I started my descent to the island in the sky! I thanked ATC for working with me and they did the same! Intentionally, being an A** will can you nowhere. Being polite will get you much further! The FSDO should have thrown the book at him!
So, the 6 year old is throwing up and has had to pee for an hour as he passes over KNB, ACZ, SGU (probably the best choice), 67L, and U08 without stopping for a bathroom break. That's some seriously bad get-there-itis (assuming his story is true). Also, I am surprised the controller didn't give him a vector back to the east once he was inside. It would have been pretty hard to argue with that even if he did think he had been cleared into the Bravo.
The way he was talking at the beginning he was under the impression that he only needed two way communication like a class C or D. Sounds to me that he realize this and was coming up with excuses to make up for his mistake. For some people admitting your wrong is inpossible.
@NonyaBusiness! - ATC did their job in notifying every other aircraft departing or arriving that this guy was there and to be aware. In 2000, I had just departed Easterwood (College Station, TX) to return to Austin and this idiot departing from Taylor Municipal in a C-172 blazed past me (missing me by 100' vertical) as I was descending to 4,000. Austin APCH: "Mooney niner-four-niner-four-victor turn left 30 degrees immediately for traffic in your 2 o-clock. No transponder, no altitude." N9494V: [Immediate left turn, spots aircraft below and avoids then calls ATC]. "Austin Approach, he just passed under me at around 4,100." Austin APCH: "Did you happen to get a tail number?" N9494V: "Negative. Do you want me to pursue to get that information?" Austin APCH: "Stand by" (as she presumably talked to her supervisor) Austin APCH: "Use caution, cleared for left turn to 130 maintain vertical separation of 500 feet." A little surprising because I would never have expected but the controller, her supervisor, as well as I were a little pissed. I got the tail number and related it back to ATC and that was the end of it. Came in a shot the ILS for 17-L and thus the weird end to an otherwise uneventful journey. Now, Austin-Bergstrom International Airport at the time was (and still is) Class C so while an ATC clearance is not specifically required to enter, you ARE required to be in radio contact with a Mode C transponder. This guy was not talking to anybody and his transponder was INOP. Not a good way to fly.
I googled the tail number and saw that that plane crashed about a year later when the pilot landed without extending the landing gear because the pilot was messing with the air conditioner and forgot
One day I was approaching the NY Bravo coming from the southwest and going northeast. I requested a bravo clearance and was told to "standby". I guess the controller was too busy. I was getting closer and closer to the class B airspace and still no clearance even after asking a second time for a Bravo clearance. Although I was still "in communication" with the controller, I simply played it safe and descended below the "bravo" well before I got to the rim and continued. No hassle, no complaints. But I did have a funny feeling there were eyes on me before I descended.
The issue here is NOT whether a Bravo clearance should have been given. It wasn't. The "FSDO had a chat" is for pilots who inadvertently blundered in, were reticent, and expressed remorse with a commitment to learn from the experience. This pilot was in full blown rebellion against ATC, never mentioned a sick child with a bursting bladder, and I think confused Class C requirements with Class B. (Two way radio comm versus a specific clearance). I saw my share of these at SoCal TRACON, and only ONE ever had to be processed further than a phone call, and that was after a near mid air with an airliner. But ATC is not the police, and it is FSDOs call. The perp walks.
I'm afraid I can't generate a lot of sympathy for 1NR, especially given his excuse of the screaming/sick child (which wasn't apparent on the voice recording...). Having flown into the Las Vegas valley more times than I can count, both commercially and GA, I know it can get darned unpleasant for the passengers. But the other side of that coin is that there are a potful of reliever and other GA fields nearby and well outside the Bravo he could have landed at to deal with the child's issues - many are just landing strips with no services, but turbulence isn't generally an issue on the ground. Anyone who is proficient in (and can afford) a radar-equipped 210P certainly has enough training to understand how the ATC system works. It may not have been a suspendable violation under the circumstances, but I would hope he at least got a recert ride out of it.
He should have mentioned the child in the exchange with the controller and not in the telephone conversation after. I'm assuming it was a conversation after he'd landed at his destination?
In other news... Classy move by the VP of Operations at your airline to make the calls personally. I know they couldn't have been fun but it shows outstanding integrity to do those. Best wishes for things to get back towards normal for the industry and you personally.
sounds like the guy spewed every excuse he could to get out of losing his license. kinda like the ol Oshkosh "fuel low, must land" routine. I flew my puking kids before, I still listened to tower. AND, if they were puking, LAND!
I am sorry for your furlough. I’ve had rolling furloughs sense the beginning of this mess and my family is hurting from it with no help or end in sight. Your not alone.
This was clearly intentional and showed *_CLEAR DISREGARD_* for the safety of other aircraft (possibly large airliners with 300 innocent people on board), and had the potential to be extremely dangerous!! No amount of apologizing should have let this complete and total IDIOT off the hook! They should have *_AT MINIMUM_* suspended his certificates for a year to send a CLEAR message! Keep in mind, it is not the *mistake* (everyone makes an honest mistake from time to time) that, I believe, should have resulted in harsh action against him, but his *_continued,_* *_intentional_* and *_arrogant_* disregard for human life and overall safety, even after being informed by ATC, that should be the reason for such action! I would not want my worst enemy, to be flying within a 100 mile vicinity of entitled, mentally deficient nutters like this one!
@@747-pilot well said, could not agree more...it goes back to, "Cleared to enter" NEVER enter Bravo without it...due to the times...ALL of us need to be our best...
I think if there had been an airliner re-routed, etc, he might have gotten a harsher penalty. But nobody got moved and no close calls. No prior issues. Take the emotion out, and his obvious attitude, and it's probably not a suspendable situation.
@757WN Absolutely. The guy has some serious Ego/Arrogance issues that could endanger himself and others. If it's a pattern, pull his ticket. And for all those out there who have never had their ego flair up, ever have an a$$hole moment, I salute you. Wish I could say that.
Tom, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Was the guy being a jerk, yes he was. We all agree he was in the wrong. That said, people have bad days. We can't go around jerking certificates everytime somebody has a bad day and decides to be a jerk. I imagine a lot of us would have suspended certificates. Now, if it was drugs, alcohol or a serious incident involving a criminal offense or injury, yes, pull his cert.
@@DeusEstPrimus "I imagine a lot of us would have suspended certificates," I disagree with that statement. How many pilots do you know who would bust the bravo and be an asshole to ATC (edit, stupid spell check) about it. Also, gender was at issue here, if the ATC had been a man would the pilot have behaved differently and more respectfully? Studies show that the answer is, yes.
@@1450JackCade I'm not saying the guy was right. I'm only saying that people have bad days. Maybe he really believed he had a clearance. Does this validate his behavior? No, but it does allow us to see how anyone of us could easily fall into a similar situation if we allow our egos or bad days to get the best of us. Basically, it's a very human mistake. Not the kind of crime that warrants the removal of his cert. As far as gender. That is pure speculation and hardly fair to anybody. Now you are slandering this man and labeling him as Misogynist based on nothing but your opinion. Not even remotely fair.
When the controller states "You were not given a clearance through the Bravo, exit the Bravo immediately", and his response is "I've been talking to you the whole time, that's the whole point of talking to you!", from this I ascertain that he feels the same rules for Class C and Class D apply to Class B (clear to enter airspace upon establishment of two way communication, "remain clear" instruction notwithstanding). How did he ever pass the PAR written, or the verbal exam?
I have flown to KHND several times and have new flown through the Bravo unless cleared it’s pretty easy and I always fly from the west and cross over tall mountains. Just do what they tell you and it works well.
I think that Bravo-bustin' pilot may have forgotten to take his meds that day from the sound of things ... Nice work, Christy. Whole bunch of topics packed in nicely! Many thanks as always! 👍🍻
Basically the equivalent of a two year old throwing an "I don't wanna" tantrum in the aisle at Kmart. They probably should have made an example of him to discourage anti-authority attitudes.
Also I've flown into henderson executive from the north and was able to avoid bravo, it just takes a few more minutes of flying, so I don't buy that he had to bust bravo for safety reasons.
@@Shaneepe1 It has been a few years so I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics but I've approached from the north on the west side of the city, from what I remember I stayed high enough to clear the terrain and then once past the city made a 180 to do a strait in final at henderson. I have also departed henderson to the east toward boulder city and then north but the terrain clearance is a bit dicey to avoid both terrain and class b so I wouldn't recommend that at night or low visibility.
Emperor POOPYPANTS I appreciate you sharing. Now I'm in no way giving this guy a pass but if you don't plan this arrival well (ie expecting a bravo clearance), I can see someone panicking trying to figure out how to dodge both the class b and the rocks 😂
@@Shaneepe1 Yeah, you need to give that approach some thought before you show up, especially at centurion speeds. If you are there already it's too late. At minimum though this guy should have apologized and asked for safe routing out of the class b airspace rather than barrelling through while being belligerent. Who doesn't plan their arrival into an area like that though? You know it's going to be tricky. That's the nature of class b airspace especially in the western US where terrain restricts a lot of otherwise available options? Crazy!
Sorry to hear about the furlough, Christy. I'll tell you what I told Nancy Bradshaw... with your positive outlook, there's no doubt you will find a way to turn this into a blessing. Good luck.
Eventually that attitude will get someone hurt. It’s unlikely that busting airspace and mouthing off to controllers is only area of his ADM that’s effected by his attitude. Sooner or later, arrogance and entitlement catches up with you.
I am sorry to hear of your furlough Christy. I hope you will be back in the FO seat soon. Until then I am looking forward to seeing and hearing from you here.
Great broadcast Christy!! The pilot was wrong; the controller was doing her job in a professional manner. Keep up the good work and exercise the Wong Warrior even more:)
That pretty much proves it's almost impossible to lose your license, that guy deliberately disregarded instructions to leave the airspace and just got a slap on the wrist.
If I remember the story at some point my grandfather accidentally clipped into bravo by a few feet without calling and without realizing he had drifted off course and the faa found him and suspended his license for 6 months.
I fly out of Manassas, VA and deal with both SFRA and Bravo requirements. I couldn’t imagine speaking to a controller that way, screaming / puking child or not. One comment someone made about anti-authority attitude stuck with me and feels like the right description for that interaction. It makes me wonder... how would that have gone for him had he apologized to the controller when she asked him to get outside of the Bravo and simply said that he thought he was cleared based on their earlier conversation.
So sorry for all the folks affected by Covid. It was nice though that the you had that personal touch. Especially considering how many they probably had to do. As for the guy with the ATC deviation through Class B. I would have suspended his license for about 30 days and made him do a few hours on his own dime with an instructor reviewing how get there itis and being anti authority has cost the lives of a lot of people by contributing to the hole chain of errors thing causing a bad decision. Kudos for the controller for being professional.
Great analysis. I have lost confidence in FAA's ability to remove dangerous pilots from our airspace. Bravo incursion is not the issue here, but how he responded to ATC. His attitude was dangerous. This can't be the first time this happened to him, and the next time he is going to kill someone. At a minimum he should have had a temporary certificate suspension, and remedial training on airspaces. To hear that he got away with nothing is shocking beyond belief.
Well, drawing down "intrusive big government" like the FAA is part of the "you're not the boss of me!" Republican platform. Free airspace should be _free!_ [/sarcasm]
Don't ask me. If it were me, he would have been in handcuffs on landing. I skirted the bravo there once. The controller asked me a couple times if I wanted to enter the bravo. I told him I was happy circling around it. I know how busy mccarin gets.
Not me but a friend ... whose house in under a Bravo Space (12/Surface) ... he flies in circles under he gets clearance to "buzz" his wife and family ... no arguments when ATC tells him it's unlikely to get clearance ... Miss Wong is spot-on correct, the pilot should have landed an hour before and dealt with the child ... one thing I learned from my friend, when the radio comes on, I shut up ... oh, and randomly flipping switches _isn't_ fun ...
I will admit that the whole exchange makes more sense knowing that his kid needed a bathroom break. Kids can go from completely pleasant, to screaming tantrum in a second and it is easy to get flustered pretty quickly. Not saying that he wasn't at fault, because it's pretty obvious that he was way in the wrong especially when they tell him to leave and he just flat out refuses, but I do at least have a teensy bit of sympathy for him now.
As a student pilot Class B airspace is drilled in to me as needing "Cleared to enter the class Bravo" phrase, no exceptions, unless in emergency 7700. I have to be extremely mindful of the class B training out of KBFI.
I have experience with both being a controller and a pilot. The controller handled it very well and the pilot was the most unprofessional pilot I’ve ever heard of.
I have said it from the beginning, but the 731NR pilot deviation was a training issue. Nothing in this new information changes my perspective on this situation. He is confusing the procedure for Class B with the procedure for Class C. In Class C, the pilot only needs two-way communication with the controller to enter. A clearance is not required for Class C. He had been on flight following since his departure earlier in the day, it seems likely he presumed that was sufficient for him to enter the class B based on his misunderstanding. Yes, the pilot was in the wrong. As for the controller, I think she could have handled the situation a little better. It would have been more professional for her to give him a vector out of class bravo For example she could have said something like, "Centurion 731 November Romeo, turn left to 0-7-0. Descend and maintain four thousand five hundred. Vectors to exit class Bravo" I have never heard the entire exchange before he busted her airspace, but normally a controller will be explicit with aircraft receiving flight-following service. For Example, when the Las Vegas TRACON first made contact with 731NR, it would have been appropriate and normal for her to say. "Centurion 7-3-1 November romeo, remain clear of class bravo. Proceed direct Boulder Airport at or below 6,000, and then direct Henderson at or below 5000." (Or something similar via multiple radio calls as she followed the traffic) Doing so, she basically described the published east-side flyway around the Las Vegas class-B airspace. My perspective is based on years of experience leveraging flight following through airspace in the vicinity of class-B airspace, sometimes ATC will clear you through, and sometimes they don't. But when they don't provide a clearance, I have always found them to provide explicit instructions like "Remain clear of class B at or below eight thousand five hundred west of the class-bravo airspace." Only to have them come back some time later, when I am clear of their approaching or departing aircraft, to amend the clearance with, "Clear class bravo. Proceed direct to ." or "Resume own navigation" There is nothing ambiguous about those instructions, and even if one has a misunderstanding of what the procedures are for class B, they have been given clear instructions to remain clear of it. So, bottom line, the pilot needs to be re-educated on proper procedures for entering Class-B airspace, and the Las Vegas TRACON needs to review the radio communication with the aircraft prior to the recordings which have been widely published, and determine if clearer instructions could have been provided to help 731NR understand how to navigate to his destination outside of the Class B airspace.
Jim, you make good points, and I agree he was not aware of class Bravo protocol, but “re-training” should not excuse his belligerent behavior and his failure to comply immediately with ATC instructions following the violation. There is no “re-training” for that. He should receive punishment for that (suspend his license for some period of time) so that it sends a clear message to others that there are consequences for blatant disregard of ATC direction. So, I’d say it’s two-fold; one piece is training and the other is consequences for disregarding a direct ATC command.
Jim Perkins, I scanned the other comments and they all seemed to be people saying this guy's ticket should be punched, so I made a terribly long comment that UTube made me break into several parts. Only later did I see your comment. I agree almost fully with your assessment. I would quibble with the assessment of it being a training issue. I suspect it may have been an issue of poor or lax pre-flight planning in that I think the guy's unfamiliarity with the terminal environment may have been a large factor, not so much his training. I would add that I suspect the guy had a pilot workload situation forming (kid barfing, descending into an unfamiliar terminal area busier than anticipated, we don't know what else) and may have assumed that he had not yet reached the Bravo airspace since flight following said nothing about him being cleared or for him to avoid, and then the lady comes on and drops a mental bomb on him that he had busted, and was of no help with the commands she was barking. I think his reaction was typical of somebody being confronted with beligerant commands to do something, but was momentarily mentally overloaded to the point he was having difficulty formulating how to work the problem, and he responded to the hostility with his own hostility. I think his reaction was a function of his overloaded state and not simply him being a jerk. I also find it interesting how we are not hearing anything about what sort of review happened to the controllers in this incident. I think a controller screwed up, maybe in a minor way, but it led this guy into a situation where it was much easier for him to make a potentially serious and dangerous mistake.
2:28 the Bravo Buster. NTSB Factual Report On May 1, 2013, about 0745 central daylight, a Cessna P210N airplane, N731NR, was substantially damaged during a gear up landing at Spirit of St. Louis Airport (SUS), St. Louis, Missouri. The pilot did not report any injuries. The airplane was registered to and operated by the pilot under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight. Day visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated without a flight plan. The flight originated from St. Charles County Smartt Airport (SET), St. Charles, Missouri about 0700. While on left base of the traffic pattern at SUS, the pilot was instructed by air traffic control to make a short approach for traffic avoidance. The pilot stated that he lowered the landing gear handle, but was unsure if the landing gear down indicator light had illuminated. He normally checked the landing gear visually, but did not remember doing so on the approach of the accident. He did not observe an audible landing gear warning horn during the approach. The pilot stated that he was distracted with testing his air conditioner and thought he noticed an odd smell in the cockpit, which he thought may have been the air conditioner malfunctioning. The airplane touched down on the runway surface with the landing gear retracted, resulting in substantial damage to the fuselage structure and engine.
There you are!!! I looked through FB and could just not find your post and couldn't remember who did the FOIA (I should have downloaded the paperwork with your name on it). Did you want me to list you as the source?
Taking Off nah don’t worry about it. I deleted the post and left that group, the admin shut off my commenting and then he continued making nasty comments, so I wasn’t gonna let that continue. Glad people find it interesting though! I’ve got a google drive folder up with everything I received, including the ATC Mandatory Occurrence Report.
Yup!!!! The only time I have heard of a blatant countermanding of an ATC clearance was actually after AA002 (LAX-JFK) declared an emergency when initially cleared to land on 22-L on 05-MAY-2010. They were low on fuel and they had a crosswind component of 22 kts gusting to 30+. The 767 does NOT like crosswind landings. So the captain declared an emergency. Aggravating an already stressful day, 13-L/31-R was closed for construction to JFK was operating everything from 22-L and 22-R. The ATC's were doing the best they could. But the captain was new in the left seat on the 767 and they were low on fuel. Better to declare an emergency when perhaps you should not have than to keep quiet when you should have spoken up. Especially when it comes to fuel issues.
the controller gets kudos; the "pilot" should be using shoes for a few months, while attending mandatory training. AND a visit from his insurance agent!
I saw the video where this pilot violated the Bravo airspace and then refuse to obey the instruction from the ATC. The FAA did investigated the matter and his pilot license was apparently cancelled.
As a retired controller with 30 years experience who is also a pilot I can say the following. That pilot should loose his license. There may be an excuse for inadvertently violating class B, but having done that there is NO excuse for refusing to comply when told to exit. If he was unsure of the best way to exit he could have asked. It was obvious He had no intention of altering his course regardless any traffic situation. He knowingly and willingly disregarded FARs, and ATC instructions. For that he should, at the least, have his ticket suspended. As to the pilots who have unknowingly violated class B and received harsh treatment understand that I as a controller got it. I have had pilots who have violated all kinds of clearances, a mea culpa, and an attempt to fix it will go miles further than copping an attitude. I don’t think I’ve ever pursued a violation if I felt it was unintentional.
Regarding the bravo busting, I think there's an extremely important point here. What I see is a stressed out pilot making serious mistakes in his interactions with ATC. It's important for pilots to manage stress as stress can be fatal in an unforgiving environment like the cockpit of a single pilot aircraft. In my view a reprimand is not enough. The FAA should have required additional human factors training, though I don't think this is done enough at the PPL level. The goal here ought not to be punishment but addressing real deficiencies and ensuring that pilots get specific training they need to fly safely.
I watched a plane crash at 5g9 uncontrol airspace when I was a low hour pilot due to the fact that he had a small child that was sick. He tried to force the plane a 172 on the ground with not flaps at 100 plus MPH at the numbers, the result wat a total loss of the plane and lucky now one was killed. I was holding short of 9 and had plenty of time to take off but I hear his voice and the panic so I did not take off. 15knot cross wind and the limit darn near. It took me a minute to get to the plane after the crash and was amazed that all were alive and OK with minor injuries. My friends that were going for a fun flight never flew again after watching the crash. The plane bounced 25 feet after first touchdown then he forced it down again and it broke apart. I found out he had 2 flights in the last 2 months, he darn near killed everyone on that flight due to a sick kid. Not taking off was the correct thing to due for me he may have run us over due to his speed. Misstates are made by all pilots.
Anybody notice this airplane (which does appear to be a personal aircraft) has not flown since returning home to Torrence CA the day after the infraction? Hasn't been in the air since June 21st- and it historically has flown more than a couple times every month.
@@TakingOff Possibly VFR, but flying out of TOA that would be HARD! Plus, you can't mask your tail on ADS-B Exchange, and nothing even on that site since June 21st. Hmmm... (But thanks for the GREAT video on this Christy!!!)
I looked online but the only FOIA I could find on this guy was rejected on the basis of an ongoing investigation. Can anyone tell me where I can find this one? Specifically the phone call
As a retired 30 year controller, the pilot of N1NR was totally wrong. Flying a C210 he should have clear knowledge of class B procedures. You MUST be told “cleared through” thru prior to entering . Always have a “plan B” in case you do not receive a clearance, don’t bet on it. Class C is much less restrictive, you just need to establish comm with ATC before entering. However, you still can be instructed to remain outside class C also.
Great video Christy. Sorry about the bad news on the job. Hang in there. Also I think ATC was totally correct and that pilot got off way too easy. He knew he was wrong.
I fly here in LAS as well and I find the LAS controllers to be excellent. Not a fan of Henderson Airport controllers at all. I've had issues with them and a few are just plain rude and unprofessional . I try to avoid them because I don't have the temperament for rude people. Better treatment at LAS, never an issue. Signature Aviation is a great FBO.
I can’t even imagine me saying any of those things to ATC...ever. This guy should have his ticket yanked for at least a year and re-training required. If it were up to me alone, I’d turn him into a pedestrian permanently. I don’t ever want to share airspace with him.
Sam Sham, I concur. His ticket should be pulled for some length of time. It is a pretty egregious error that he exasperates by not complying and verbally responding in a smart-ass manner. He’s dangerous. I don’t want to be in the same airspace as him. This is a clear incident where the FAA should make an example.
I only saw one comment here about the 1986 Aeroméxico Flight 498 mid-air collision and resulting crashes. Do you think the Piper Archer pilot's license should be revoked?
Man that cat must have lawyered up quick and was told what to say. Although there were no reroutes and the airspace was pretty quiet he got Off pretty easy. If it would’ve been a poor boy in a experimental or a old 150 he would’ve got one year suspension
From the time I first heard this person, (I use the term “person” lightly) I have had the same opinion. Without a doubt, cancel his PPL, and make sure he never has any way to obtain one in this country ever again. If that was his best response to ATC, regardless of his situation, pull his license and stop him from threatening passenger’s lives, commercial or private. His attitude has too much potential to create fatal scenarios. There cannot be any exceptions to FAA rules regulations because that is what keeps the accident rate so unbelievably low in comparison to other forms of transportation in my opinion.
Am I the only one who noticed the guy's attitude changed considerably when he was speaking to the male supervisor? Of course, by then he was begging for forgiveness...
Would love to hear your take on that jumbo jet a couple years ago that took off from KSEA VFR when their IFR flight plan was either cancelled or delayed and took off flying traffic pattern. They requested to vacate Bravo and fly east vfr but were denied and ATC requested they land immediately. They said they were unable and could not land for at least 9 hours due to being overweight with fuel. In the traffic pattern they had problems maintaining speed and their turning radius was so huge that they were causing major issues for ATC. Eventually they got there IFR clearance and left but i am curious if you can find out more and report on it. It was covered by VasAviation youtube channel and it was kind of sparse containing just the ATC audio.
ATC IN VEGAS SEEMED TO BE issuing directives and using shortened call sign..this maybe where confusion began...Cleared to enter Bravo are the magic words...ATC most likely assumed 19N was going to remain clear of Bravo as it seems to be standard practice there approaching Henderson
I view ATC like I view the safety person at a shooting range. If they tell me to do or stop doing something I should comply immediately, without question. If I feel I've been wronged by them, the correct way to deal with it isn't to argue with them while they're doing their job, it's to file a complaint after the event.
Busting the Bravo was bad enough but the real problem was his "Well I'm here and you can't make me leave" attitude. I hope he doesn't drive the way he flies.
everything up to him saying 'negative' to a direct ATC order is nothing to be too worked up about. a teaching moment. but to flat out say no like that? he's luck he didn't have 2 F-16's on his wings after that.
I largely agree with that, though trying to argue his way into a Bravo clearance, even if he realized it was his mistake, was a bad idea at any airport busy enough to be a Bravo. By far the most serious issue, though, is the defiance--you're dead-on. For the safety of everyone in the system, not just for the sake of professionalism, the FAA needs to draw a very bright line at that point. It's hardly a secret that parents who have no clear and unmovable boundaries with children can ultimately endanger others around them, let alone between adults trained in system safety in an unforgiving environment. There are no mulligans with mid-airs. If it is let go in a case as egregious and public as this, that sets a precedent whether the FAA means for it to or not. Defiance in actions and/or on-air should _always_ mean suspension of privileges for some length of time depending on how the interaction with ATC management and FSDO goes. Excuse-making is way too little / too late and words alone in reply are not enough.
I agree. I would also add that since approach knew he was "about to violate the bravo", why not say something to him at that point instead of waiting until he DID violate it? I have flown through Class B airspace in Boston, NY, Philly, and DC with flight following on several occasions with a small single, and I would say more often than not, they do not actually tell you that you are clear to transition the airspace. It is understood that if the flight path to your destination will take you through the class B, ATC will advise you if they need you to divert. Granted, I am usually up around 6500.
@@pilotjim4595 I'm guessing that she was speaking to the other controller when she realised that it was about to happen. Also, if it wasn't an immediate conflict, she might have had more urgent clearances to give. It's always hard when it's not in full real time.
There is absolutely no excuse! He should have a violation on his record, have his license revoked and not be renewed until he receives some more training especially on bravo airspace and other restricted airspace. He needs to be made to understand that he put others lives at risk.
I could understand how having a child along who is screaming and vomiting might be very distracting. But as the saying goes, "your failure to plan is a plan to fail." There may have been more he could have done before even going to the airport to plan ahead. Knowing you will be nearing the Class Bravo Airspace means extra care and consideration when planning the flight. No matter what the distraction, your first job as PIC is to fly the plane and follow the controllers instructions. He was way out of line to argue with or get huffy with the controller. She was right to be firm with her instructions because lives are at stake. It's so simple just to say I'm sorry, I screwed up and then fix the problem instead of trying to argue your points that have no merit at all.
A training issue...no how about being arrogant issue. This guy is flying a high performance complex plane that might i add he's the owner of. If he is confusing class B over class C then he doesn't need to be flying... that simple!! Early on in my training it was made clear not to inter class B unless you are cleared to!! I'm angry that he wasn't revoked. I want to be far far away if this guy is out flying. Its this type of pilot that gets people killed. Rant over....
I find it interesting as a non American pilot that the controller never told him to 'remain outside of controlled airspace' when making contact with him. It seems like he was assuming contact with him was a clearance.
I can't imagine intentionally busting Bravo airspace. I get nervous about not calling soon enough before entering Class Delta airspace (and usually call too early :o) ).
It's not that hard to get under Bravo airspace at McCarren. It might be uncomfortable if it's the hot season, but even I've done it in a little lowly experimental Van's RV-12. No need to bust class B airspace. I really don't see any excuse for his behavior. If you have a glass cockpit EFIS, or Foreflight on your iPad, it seems to me it'a no brainer.
If this guy had simply apologised immediately, asked for vector and altitude to fly out of Bravo airspace safety would have been restored and we would never have heard of this. This was not an Aviator, this was a guy who learned how to work the controls, there is a big difference.
