Hello Pat, I guess I am missing something, where are the names listed? I am sorry if I just missed it, I would really like to see their names. Thanks.....
@@higgydufrane They will be listed in the cemetery where they are buried and also on official records in the US. In Australia the names of ALL deceased from all wars are listed in the Shrine of Remembrance at the Australian War Memorial and in all town and city cenotaphs and memorials
and thank you very much for NOT listing the dutch merchant seamen´s names.. dutch ? not interesting! Merchant ? not interesting. Indonesia area ? Not interesting!!
Much like the Nazi's, they showed themselves to be petty, shallow people in wartime when things didn't go their way. Their leaders distorted the bushido code and their Samurai history to their own ends, it is what drove the country to war and formed the ultimate cause of their defeat. Like the Boxers in China they believed their "moral superiority" would win through but, as history has proven, moral fortitude don't stop bullets.
Honor is relative the problem was the Japan's idea of honor in ww2 was flawed. The destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (not to mention Tokyo and most other major cities) was all of the Honor that they earned.
True. And even worse, some of them, who were tried were innocent in some cases recieved death sentence, while real monsters got away free. Good example is Bataan Death March. Masaharu Homma, who was well educated, honorable and civilised man was made responsible for war crimes during this horrible event. Sentenced to death and executed. Truth is, that he gave very specific orders how to treat POW's and civilians, by which he made many of high ranking officers and high command personel his enemies. Some of those then acted behind his back and against his orders. Those were responsible for atrocities, especially Hisaichi Tereauchi and Masanobu Tsuji. None of them was tried and - which makes me especially mad - both have memorials ( Masanobu Tsuji even has a statue) in Japan until today. In short, man who was trying to follow rules and humanitarian principes was executed and war criminals has statues in Japan.
@@OslikusPrime All very true. This was the Japanese General in charge, and he was truly innocent of all charges, but executed nonetheless because the Allied judges declared him guilty by association. Tragic.
The Edsall was my grandfather's first command 1926-28. He showed the flag on the Yangsee and brought his ship into Bangkok on a diplomatic mission. He loved the Edsall and likely was devastated. In March 1942, he was Commandant of NAS Bermuda and well-connected into the Office of Naval Intelligence. Nicely presented version of this battle and war crime.
Work with older gentleman in the 1980s at fish processing facility on Canadian east coast. The day Japanese purchasers came into the plant for caplin fish. He just stood and stared at them, never said a word , went to lunchroom pick up his belongings and never came back. Later found out he was a veteran of the pacific war. I can,t imagine what went through his mind that day.
When I received orders to Okinawa, in the 80s, I asked my Father if he would like to come visit. He declined, saying he didn't leave anything in Japan worth going back for. He had been a WW2 Marine Raider. He never talked about his experiences, except the training or siteseeing stories, where nobody died. After I had been overseas and back he started to open up somewhat about his experiences. Unfortunately, he didn't live long enough to tell the whole story.
I can imagine. A friend of our family was a Marine in the Pacific fight. When people asked what he did, all he would say is "I used a flame thrower." He always looked at the floor when he said it. He passed away in 2009. He was called "Daddy Bob" for all the work he did helping people in need. Rest in peace Bob.
I had two uncles that fought in the Pacific. Neither one wanted anything "made in Japan" in their homes, except the souvenirs they brought home. One drove landing craft and the other was a machinist mate on the USS Intrepid, which was hit by Kamikazes. (That's a whole other story!)
I was hoping someone would mention the book. You beat me to it. It makes one want to scream. Especially the fate of the few survivors picked up by the Japanese navy. LCDR Nix deserves a navy cross or CMOH for his actions on that last battle.
I for one appreciate that Mark doesn't sugarcoat the murders. Yes, it's war. Blow the US ship to smithereens, absolutely. If I was an IJN Captain I would too. But the just cold blooded murder of helpless prisoners...?
Thank you Mark for another fascinating piece of history. As a teenager at school in the 70's I had a maths teacher who was once in the RN. He served the majority of his career in HMS Exeter, seeing action on the River Plate and ultimately the Java sea, where he was captured. If time permitted at the end of our maths lessons he would relate to us (a boisterous gathering of adolescent males) his experiences as a WW2 naval officer and POW. Needless to say we were always absorbed in his 5 minute dits. (RIP Mr Wood) Thanks once again Mark, terrific performance
Japan has never accounted for, admitted to nor atoned for their atrocities during the Second World War. It reveals a shocking lack of national character.
Japan has not fundamentally changed in over a thousand years, despite appearances, and such actions are ingrained in the national psyche in that they are not even considered atrocities.
Actually, over the years since the end of WW2, various Japanese Ministers including their Prime Minister have apologized, often to specific countries/peoples (e.g.: Korea) for specific incidents (e.g.: ‘comfort women’). Even the Emperor has apologized. They’re a matter of public records and readily and easily searchable. That said, I am not aware of any over-arching apology for everything.
@@patfontaine5917 there are a lot of tourist sites in the far east such as the bridge over the river kwai and japanese tourists are always in utter disbelief at what they did
@@patfontaine5917 Not so fast. Most of those so called apologies were later retracted, or restated, to make them not apologies at all but rather defections from the truth. Look up your facts better and in more depth. And, don’t insult our Veterans.
I recall visiting a relative, in the late 1970's, who had been a prisoner of the Japanese. He was so scared by the brutal treatment he would have no products of that nation in his house. I don't know any further details as he could not bring himself to talk to anyone about his time in the east, not even to his wife. He was a kind, gentle and quiet man. God rest his soul.
And to think in the same year, two dead Japanese submariners, who attacked Sydney Harbour in a mini sub, were laid to rest with full military honours, with a 21 gun salute and all , by the Australians.
If we decry the actions of others, it behooves us to act differently from them. It is no fault to treat others with the honour they may have refused us; it is a strength to retain one's own self in the face of such injustice.
Joseph James, I would rather be like that than be an arsehole. You might see it as a fault, but I see it as being a human. But then again, I do live in the best country in the world.
Heartwrenching...RIP brothers. Every Japanese ship involved in the destruction of the Edsall and our allies ships, were destroyed in later Pacific battles.
" Ship of Ghosts", by James Hornfischer ; covers the USS Houston and what happened in Java, etc also briefly mentions the USS Edsall as he ran down what happened to each ship that was trying to get out of the area. I highly recommend the book, btw. A handful of survivors of the Houston suvived captivity all the way through the war in POW camps. Thanks for the video on the USS Edsall.
There is a book on the Edsall itself. "A Blue Sea of Blood". Not an easy read, but it is very thorough. "Ship of Ghosts" is a great book as is "Neptune's Inferno". James Hornfischer has skills.
The Japanese thinking it was a cruiser, and the DD turning to engage against all odds reminds me of the likes of the Johnston and Samuel B Roberts at Samar.
@Marc Bondura To be brutally fair* US submariners did the same thing on at least one occasion www.enemyinmirror.com/jan-1943-mush-morton-uss-wahoo-atrocity/ *perhaps fair isn't a good way to phrase it. Brutally honest is better
@@MothaLuva He didnt choose Nagasaki. It was an alternative target because of weather. But nonetheless, I agree. Japan had clearly lost the war and the estimated of Allied casualties was simply too large. And in fact more of the Japanese civilians would have died if a forced landing had been the decision of the Allies.
@@Theywaswrong If Charles Sweeney who was the commander on the second nuke mission had followed his orders then it would have been Kokura instead of Nagasaki. Sweeney was ordered to wait no more than ten minutes over Iwo Jima but the fool waited for 50 minutes, thus allowing the clouds to cover Kokura.
It was great to hear a story on a Clemson class destroyer as they are often over looked. My grandfather served on Tin Can 210 the USS Broome; when talking about how old the ship was, he was always very positive. Thank you for sharing.
Fun fact: None of these four stackers were "preserved" but one "exists." USS Corry (DD-334) was abandoned on the Napa River north of the former Mare Island Naval yard in the San Francisco Bay Area and can be seen on GoogleEarth @ www.google.com/maps/@38.1665859,-122.2876028,189m/data=!3m1!1e3
Fascinating how even to this day I can learn new tid-bits about history. I recently finished a book about the tragic tale of the USS Houston and her crew when they were lost off Java with the Australian cruiser Perth. Had never heard of the USS Edsall's odyssey though. Thank you Dr. Felton. You've shown me you're never too old to be slapped by history.
My dad was in the Pacific and when I was in high school in the 1980s he sent me to Japan as an exchange student. I don't know if he had managed to arrange it or if it was merely a coincidence but I ended up staying with a boy whose father was one of the very few survivors of the Yamato. he had been taking off before the ship put to see for some reason.
The _Edsall_ was not an" elderly" ship. She had been in commission for only about 21 years, a not especially long period of time in 1941. The Dutch cruiser _Java_ , for example, had been put in service in 1916. Several of the Dutch destroyers were of nearly the same vintage. Some of the more modern ships ships, like HMS _Exeter_ , mounting the latest radars, and the USS _Houston_ , both commissioned in 1931, were also sunk by the Japanese. The problem in the several battles of the Java Sea was the Japanese were superb night fighters, having intensively trained for it during the interwar years. The Allies just assumed that the Japanese, like themselves, would not engage in night actions but wait until daylight. The night attacks came as a complete shock to the allies, and that's one of the chief reasons why we lost those battles.
Indeed.... And there were Japanese night spotters that spent their time in Permanent darkness....throughout a ships time at sea. Their night vision was acutely sharpened.
@@caractacusbrittania7442 When the Japanese first saw Black American Soldiers they thought the Soldiers were night fighters. I'm not kidding, it's true.
@@garypulliam3740 I was about to pipe in the same thing. Obsolescent is a more accurate term than elderly or outdated. Compared even to late 1942, almost every ship in the major navies had become or was about to become obsolescent. Just look at the _Fletcher_ class compared to a _Clemson_ class ship.
Well Mark with the end of this War Story I have now listened to all the stories in your current catalogue and they are always enjoyable and enlightening. Your delivery of each story is wonderful and the personal details of the people involved make the stories even more compelling. Thank you
@@ThePhoenix109 You're have so little honor that you're willing to disrespect our veterans and their families who try to honor them. You should be deeply ashamed of yourself.
@@ThePhoenix109 You should be ashamed of yourself. This guy's grandpa served in Okinawa, probably got injured severely, probably barely survived. and you disrespect this guy and it makes it clear you don't care about history or probably even have a life. How would you feel if someone disrespected one of your family members who served?
As an old retired U. S. Sailor i want to thank you for this kind of story. You have the ability to make the simplest thing sound so amazing. If someone thinks history is boring. It's because they never had you to listen to.
A tactical victory for the Japanese, technically, sinking the ship; but an operational victory for the American vessel. The amount of resources that the IJN fleet poured into the pursuit and firing of one single obsolete destroyer meant that those resources weren't available to do damage elsewhere. Absolutely courageous, the crew of the Edsall, and thank you for listing the names of the men killed by their captors. Too bad the internment camp crew probably escaped justice.
I'll never understand this Bushido code thing... If it had been Germans they probably would have saluted their prisoners and thrown the officers a dinner. Thankyou for this story Dr. Felton. Bravery or desperation, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.
Bravery is desparation with a will. Cowardice is desparation without a will. ~~~~~~~~ Mark has a short series on Japanese cultural attitudes where he notes the Japanese started corrupting the code in the late 1800s. The Japanese do have certain parallels with the Germans in the run-up into WWII: - a broadly trained & ingrained sense of racial & cultural superiority - at least a generation of militarization expounded in the general culture (outside the military) - great distortion of traditional honor/ethics standards. There are some more, but I'll stop here.
@@45auto82 ) 101st Airborne had been killing German POWs since D-Day. Other U.S. units would route German POWs around the 101st in order to save their lives. Malmedy was pay back. See Ambrose's book "Band of Brothers" also related stories of soldiers who served in the 101st in WWII.
@@8thCavalry Already agreed we did it too, but still not in the millions, like the Japanese or nazis. To compare the microscopic times it occurred by US forces to what the Japanese or Germans did just isn’t logical or right. Have you ever served in war? Have you had to ever pick up the pieces of your Buddy off the battlefield? Have you ever held your best friends while the life slipped out of them?
Surprised this ship wasn't ordered to join Admiral Karl Doorman's strike force of 2 Dutch Light Crusiers and a handful of Allied destroyers that were destroyed during the Java Sea Battle.
@@loveofmangos001 Exeter, Perth and Houston. This was an action that should never have been fought. Those ships would be desperately needed elsewhere. Australia had already lost Sydney and a number of destroyers and smaller units in the Med. She would soon lose Yarra, Armidale (Teddy Sheean, VC), Voyager, Vampire and then Canberra in the total stuff up at Savo.
My Uncle served as a marine in the pacific. In the 50’s he would come over to our house while we were just little kids. He came over without the wife or kids to talk with my dad who thankfully joined too late for WW2. I can still remember them sitting on the front porch drinking a beer or two and talking about the war. While I don’t remember all they said I do remember being terrified by some of the stories they told of the barbarity of Japanese troops. His last campaign was on Iwo Jima where he was thought dead after a bomb went off nearby, put in the makeshift morgue and sneezed as an orderly walked by - saving his life. After what he’d seen he hated the Japanese. After what I heard I certainly understand why.
When I was in college in the 1970s I found an old book at a used book store which detailed the loss of the USS Langley. I looked at the photos and skimmed the story. From what little I read it was apparent the author was very critical of the decision to send the old ship and its weak escort into such dangerous waters. I did not not buy the book, much to my regret now, but I do remember one photo of a sailor manning a Lewis Gun and a derisive description of it being a part of the vessel's air defense armament. My God, we were unprepared for war in 1941 and 42.
@@LTPottenger Thanks. I have put this - or something like this out before, and been censored for it. Thanks for you b@@@s in saying what needed to be said. Some of those traits: slavish adherence and study of the great bolshevik ( you know who he is ) are still going on. My father (ww2 & Korea volunteer) said what a lot of that movement still wants people to think today: that when that person died, they felt they" had lost their father," Dad's words, not mine. Getting back to ww2, a serious study of those old fogies - most of whom never served in 1861-65, 1898, or 1917-1918 - reveals that they were a bunch of chicken littles. So, we ended up with the sad garbage we started ww2 with.
When my parents moved house about 35 years ago, their new neighbour employed a gardener who had been a prisoner of the Japanese. He wouldn't buy anything made in Japan. He explained why so many of the camp guards were so brutal. He said that they were the lowest of the low within the Japanese armed forces, those consigned to guarding prisoners were themselves viewed as little better than the 'failed warriors' they were guarding. They were the stupidest, most incompetent, least soldierly misfits and miscreants in the Imperial forces and they took out their frustrations on those within their power, the prisoners. Old John said that a guard just walked up to him one day as he was sitting taking a breather, and casually broke his wrist for no reason. He loathed the Japanese all his life and I cannot blame him. His favourite moment of captivity was when he observed a Japanese soldier sitting on a tree branch, industriously sawing through it. Point was, he was on the 'outer side' of the saw cut. John never said a word, just smiled to himself as the branch gave way and the moron fell twenty feet to the hard ground below. He's gone now of course but I miss his stories.
Thanks for another fantastic video I always looking forward to them . Could you possibly do a video on HMAS Perth and her last stand. Big fan from down Under.
another display of hypocrisy by WWII japanese...claim to value honor yet willingly killed those who couldn't fight back and enjoyed killed those who embarrassed them in battle.
The Japanese showed No mercy to captured prisoners of war during World War two as they considered surrendering evil they preferred to die fighting or commit Hari kari
The Japanese had been taught from infancy that surrender was an act far worse than treason. "Duty can be as heavy as a mountain. Death is lighter than a feather." The Japanese society, over the last few decades prior to WWII, had been completely militarized. In essence, every man, woman or child were a soldier in the service of their emperor. In traditional Japanese society, you are taught to both respect, and obey you parents, and your superiors alike, unconditionally.
I used to think they did the decapitations as a mark of respect to brave warriors, bushido code. The truth i think is that they were a pack of lousy bastards who enjoyed killing defenseless men. Just like the captured crewmen at Midway, who they pulled from the water, tortured and then murdered. And of course, not 1 of them ever suffered justice. Regardless of the allies sinking all of the ships involved, when they were sunk in return, we didnt pull the survivors out of the water and murder them.
@@Barryschitpeas42069 Brutally true, both sides committed war crimes there can be no denying that. The only difference I believe is that one side (Japan) started it and set the "trend" going forward in the war. You're a lot less likely to treat your enemies with any degree of respect if they mutilate and murder civilians and prisoners. *Side note: The US strategic bombing campaign isn't included in the above opinion, that's a separate matter entirely.
@@Barryschitpeas42069 Japan had treaty obligations with respect to the treatment of POW's, we had ratified no treaties that would limit our use of strategic bombing. War crimes aren't just 'things you don't like' they're deliberate violations of existing treaties.
@@costakeith9048 I mean you're right but you're also wrong. Dropping bombs on civilians and calling it "strategic bombing" is still dropping bombs on civilians and is morally just as evil as torturing or executing prisoners. Its not even an argument, "Japan started it" isn't an excuse either
It would have been nice if you could have included the video that the Japanese took of the sinking of the Edsall. As a docent on the battleship Texas and at the National Museum of the Pacific War, I use the example of the Edsall to explain how difficult the gunnery fire control problem can be. Great Episode!!
Yes it is unfortunate that so much of the youth of America seem to hate their own country, history, and tradition, while thinking we should be like other honorable countries like Japan or Germany. History education is so lacking in the USA
@@alanaldpal950 American youth do not hate their country, they simply refuse to accept the whitewashing and complete omission of their county's crimes, mistakes and brutality. We have often done so and now have to deal with a long hidden truthy being revealed. History education certainly is lackining in America but you as though you prefer propaganda to historical truths.
This is one of my favorite war stories. Sure they got her in the end, but she forced the IJN to expend over 1300 large calibre shells, thousands of litres of aviation and ship fuel, and caused consternation and strife up and down the chain of command. Militarily that's a win, though a small one.
Sir, have you already done a video on USS Houston, and or the early battles between the allied and japanese fleets? I feel this particular "front" doesn't receive anywhere near enough attention.
I think yhey have a very vague classification of vessels because the lack of knowladge by this time and still using some tactics of world war 1 . Like "Little Ship, Big Ship and Carrier". Anything in between didn't exsist for the japanese. For example a transport ship that carry a deck gun would be consider a "big ship" only because of one deck gun.
Mark - I reckon the answer to why these sailors were executed lies in that the Japanese lost face as a result of that battles - one of the most important things we Westerners overlook. When a Japanese officer loses face - there absolutely must be consequences - if not he would be unable to carry on. It's something that's hard for us to grasp, but of utmost importance to the Imperial Japanese. I absolutely love these subjects, and I start searching info on related subjects - 8 hours later I try to remember what started it all. Damn, I really love history - maybe not as much as the professors, but it's always been an important part of my life.
Thanks for creating the story of this brave crew. My great uncle was a crewman aboard the Edsall so this story is story is dear to my family. My great grandfather sadly died before he ever learned the truth of what happened to the ship and my uncle Ralph.
@ 9:26 automatic closed captioning reads: “...a blazing wreck with a final effort the edsel’s bowels were turned towards the rapidly advancing enemy....”
Thank you for this lesson. I learn so much with each Mark Felton video. Two books I enjoyed regarding the USN in WWII..."The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" and "The Spirit of the Sammie B"
In the early seventies my flight instructor who was from the Philippines told me how most nations in the Pacific still hated the Japanese for the horrible atrocities they committed during the war. Then fifty years later, I heard the same from my son staying in Korea. They are truly hated for what they did and how they refuse to admit it.
Crew life aboard the "4 Pipers" was abysmal according to my father who knew a few sailors who served aboard them. They were a decent ship for the inter-war period patrolling shallow water regions. I can only imagine how difficult it must've been living aboard one of these on convoy duty in a gale in the north Atlantic. Everything below deck would've been swamped.
I've got a vid suggestion. The infamous 'Cafe wars' of the French Colonial War. I found an obscure reference which said as many as 5,000 people were killed in it. Its outside of the Anglo - US etc. experience but is quite interesting nonetheless.
Great video, i read a book on the Edsall a few years ago. Mr Felton, please do a video on the USS Asheville. Your video and the book i read make it sound like Edsall and Asheville had their entire crews killed before wars end. I think wikipedia and some other websites claiming Asheville was the only ship to have everyone massacred.
Greetings from Finland! It is out independence day and it came to my mind could you do something about our winter or continuation war? I think Finnish history of WW2 has more than enough great stories to tell :)
I have so much respect for Finland, standing up to the brutality of Russia, a country that has largely gotten away with their crimes with nothing so much as an acknowledgment or apology! Meanwhile Germany’s apologized about a billion times and Russia’s still holding up their ‘victim’ card!
Yes. What were the other 3 missing ships? Has anything been found about them? That's a good story line you should follow up on missing ships, subs and aircraft.
Three were lost in surface actions or scuttled in the Java area over the next couple of days. USS Pillsbury, DD227 and USS Asheville, PG-21. And Dutch destroyer HNLMS Witte de With was scuttled at Surabaya after battle damage. USS Whipple, DD217, survived and went on to service in the Caribbean, Atlantic, and Mediterranean thru the end of the war.
The others were USS Pope DD-225 (lost with HMS Exeter), USS Pillsbury DD-227 (lost in similar circumstances to the Edsall), and USS Jarvis DD-392 (sunk in an air attack off Guadalcanal). Like Edsall, Pillsbury and Jarvis were lost with all hands. However, the Pope's crew was rescued by the Japanese destroyer Inazuma and spent the rest of the war as POWs.
I read a book about this while on a sailing trip. Being at sea made it hit a bit harder. Brave souls. Rest In Peace gentleman. The Dutch East Indies campaign is a rarely told story. Thank you for sharing with such eloquence sir!
The more I learn about Japanese atrocities in particular, the more I come to the conclusion that all Japanese soldiers suffered from tiny manhood syndrome. I also think that two nukes wasn't enough
My grandfather was a crew member on the Dutch freighter mentioned.(M.S Modjokerto) The graves were rediscovered in 1946 near Kendari 11. I have read the findings from at least 7 mass graves at his location. The Edsall and M.S Modjokerto crew were all found together in two of the graves. 18 in one, 16 in the other. The were several, maybe 10 or so that could not be identified. Fortunately the Edsall crew found had dog tags and all the Modjokerto native crew had name plates. Those without were not identified unfortunately.
USS Edsall was not the only Clemson-class four-stacker to be mistaken for an Omaha-class cruiser to her detriment; USS Peary was sunk during the carrier strike on Darwin after her silhouette drew down a full squadron of dive-bombers.
My father was shot during one of the Darwin raids. He died in 1962 when I was too young (11) to ask questions about it. It nags at me because WW2 is one of my passions.
