This was one one the best reviews of a LCG/CCG they have done. the "TARGET" standards he hit on were very detailed, and based off of the qualities of the game, versus the distribution model. I wish they had done this type of review for SW: Destiny. Look forward to playing this game!
Very nice review Zee. If you dont mind, I can give you some feedback, as old5r veteran and newl5r player. - first it was 90-120 mins for us, per game as well, but we went down to 45-60 after several plays, the only exception are games involving defensive Crab - up to 2h. - nice that you mentioned new mechanics and how those tackled old problems - I have the same feelings, despite few old players who dont like the changes. - I understand you review the game as a single box product but while reviewing FFG LCG you need to look at it as 3x core set as well (I deffinitely agree that every lcg has shallow cardpool at the beginning) , as this is how we play those starting first tournaments as well. - game is outstanding, original was best card game ever for me and many of my friends, theres a huge scene waiting for the revival of the game, starving to get it. For me - a must have for fans and - deffinitely a game to try if you liked any LCG - you could and should - mention about organized play, planned tournament scene and how players will be able to impact the game and the story Keep up the good work, nice that game got atleast your attention, you will deffinitely see hordes of fans at Gencon
If you want to make FULL decks for a clan it will require you to purchase 3 of these ($120 before tax) as you'll really want to use that max 3 copies of any card and you only get 1 of each card in a single box. So it is an investment to start, but this means you have everything available currently to make a deck of these 7 clans to start, though not really more than 2 or 3 decks at any given time as there are neutral cards anyone can use. So, if you put them in one deck, another deck cant use them obviously.
As a player from the beginning of the ccg days, I find this to be somewhat different from what I'm used to but in a way refreshed that they are breathing new life into this game. I have high hopes for this game as I am playing in the Kiku Matsuri tourney on Thursday and another tourney on Friday. Yes there will be story line events take place on Thursday for sure depending on how players play. They have had spoilers for each clan and Back story for each clan to figure out what their role is in the story at this point. I have made a lot of friends from this game local and international, and hope to make more friends for another 20 years.
It seems like a sleeker, more fine tuned game than the original. There's a lot of similarities to the old game that keeps the flavor without all the unnecessary complexity and snowball effects from the original. I can't wait to get actual cards in my hand in 4 days at gencon! Woohoo!!!
Zee, excellent review and made much clearer to me. I have not played yet a collectible card game but have wanted too but bit intimidated about complexity and wonder if too much thinking personally for me. Really heard a lot about this one and suggested I try. Thanks again for your great reviews!
Thanks for this extremely thorough overview, Zee. As an avid fan of the original game, I have been a little worried about what I've been seeing in the previews, so this provided a lot of info and comparisons that i think we all really needed. Still not sure what to think, mind you, and maybe that's nostalgia goggles in play, but it's given me a lot to consider. Again, thanks,
Cracking stuff. I usually dip my toe into the starter box for LCGs and then see if the hooks sink in. Enjoyed the format at the end, though would agree with other commenter who mentioned about putting the box on the table 🙂
If other FFG LCGs are anything to go by (especially AGoT 2.0) core set only games take a lot longer than they will once a few more sets come out and decks become more streamlined and focused.
Played the original game a lot in the day; was focused on Crab and then Fu Leng when they added a stronghold for the dark Kami. The honor dial just seems weird to me at this time but we'll see how it works when I actually play it though. I hated the old method of losing a fight by 1 point and losing every single character and troop involved in the fight while the opponent lost nothing. That was my biggest gripe with the old one.
That was one of the biggest complaints of the old game and one of the reasons why the old game died off because getting all your characters killed off lead to either a pissed off new player not wanting to play anymore or a big stall while both players just built up their forces until time was called. Nobody likes that. This game takes that away as well as the snowball effect of losing provinces.
It died after 20 damn years. So for 20 years there waves of players, including new ones, who played it. We'll see this one will survive 4-5 years before it collapse (first checkpoint - new competetive LCG premiere in 1-2 years from now). About stalling boardstate - i'm really curious how fast it will become issue here in tourney time-limited environment as well, because it's so easy to go full defense and call the time and fadin-out won't help becasue it works for both players. Anyway Sparks you played CCG game for so long, i've never heard you were criticizing it becasue everyone dies or snowball. So?
I didn't criticize it. I said those were huge turn offs to getting new players in to the game. If a game isn't getting new players, it's going to die. The new game got rid of those turn offs and made a more streamlined game. It's likely to attract a lot of players now.
It seems FF is investing in the competitive play for L5R way more than for any other game they own, which is fantastic and very important for L5R. The competitive scene will continue to drive story and the future of the game. With that in mind, it sounds really strange that a match would take 1,5 to 2 hours. It shouldn't take more than 55 minutes on average.
Rumor has it you need cards from three base sets to make competitive decks, though... :/ But that is what people are used to from FFG: For instance, you cannot play a "standard" Star Wars Destiny match from just two starters, since each only comes with 20 cards and a deck should contain 30 cards so booster packs are required.
NileSings best email them or call them of they are getting it. The deadline to order them is closing soon and LGS's need enough people calling them to order :)
The first organized play package is what they called the Launch Party. It assumes 1x core set deck building rules. So you'll be able to participate with one core. After that you'll need at least two to play in organized play. That's confirmed. You'll probably want three if you are playing competitive games though considering the large numbers of singletons in this games core set.
Fantastic review! I watched a couple of tutorials/playthroughs and whilst it looks like a incredibly well-designed game, I just CBF chasing up expansions and spending the time and effort in trying to recruit and train opponents. Make a lighter game with more in the base and I'll happily pay double the price or more. Happy to take suggestions on what would be better suited for me. Preferably not an LCG.
If this shows up in my FLGS i would buy it... but by the sounds of it someone else would have to have enough of an an interest in the game to buy it as well in order for me to enjoy this product. I am afraid to drop money on this especially never actually playing the original. Even more to the point is that dice masters in my area is drying up, that is an investment that im not sure im comfortable eating right now. Its why i haven't bought netrunner yet. And yet i feel this game i could very much love if i had the community around here. I would like to see zee do an update further down the line, mahaps when some of those card packs come out.
Zee...I am entirely intrigued... great art, and good mechanism!!!! Don't mind longer game. Sounds like the kind of game for people who love MTG... how much is that game? Is it out now?
price is 39.99, its not out at the moment but Gencon attendies and players in the touraments will receive the game early at gencon then official release will be in the following months. some FLGS and possibly FFG may be allowing preorders but don't quote me on that, its rumored so check with your local FLGS.
A couple of my thoughts on this review: 1. Zee is probably the last person on the DT crew that would like this type of game since he likes shorter, simpler games 2. Most other reports that I've heard are that this is only a 45 minute to 1 hour game 3. Another person commented saying this is a cash grab for FFG- of course FFG is going to try to make money, but they have had people who loved the original CCG work on this version.
Actually, Zee is most probably the very first person on the DT crew who would like this type of game. He has played lots of TCGs in the past, loves card-driven games and loves 2-player games. Zee also likes Magic the Gathering a lot. I think he's the best person to give an informed opinion on an LCG like this one.
Seems great, and i can't wait till it releases in a few months. I don't think it would be too difficult to house rule for multiplayer. I agree with the feeling of snowballing of the original, hopefully this version fixes it. Also i hope i don't have to buy too many copies to have functional decks of each of the clans.
You only need to buy 3 core sets for a full play set of core and then you only need to buy 1 of each expansion pack to get the full play sets of those.
The lengths of games has been insane for this. Granted it goes down but minimum you are looking at an hour. That’s a long time for an no coop LCG. How are tournaments going to not last days when games are this long? I’m enjoying it so far, but they have gone too far in the convoluted mechanics to make it accessible.
As someone who wants to start getting into these sorts of games I’ve only played Pokémon & Yu-Gi-Oh back in my days of primary and early Highschool (Australian system btw) would this be something of a good entry level to start with or is there something else more new player friendly?
Nice, Zee! Thank you for the pre-release review. I feel concerned that the game's win conditions may contribute to asymetrical gameplay with one player focusing on an honor/dishonor victory with the other player focusing on breaking through provinces to defeat the stronghold. Did you get that feeling while playing? Thank you!
Michael Gee It's not as asymmetrical as the old game. In the original CCG, if one opponent was playing an honor deck, it was almost like playing solitaire. This game fixes a lot of that, with much more interaction, even if you are trying to win via honor. Of course as more cards come out, other styles of play may emerge.
If you played "passive / control" honor deck. Because there were many types of honor decks including ones that were begging for any battle. Or switch (military/honor) decks. Or combo honor (catche them and kill to x2/x3/x4 gains by some cards effects) etc.
Yeah but those were few and far between. All the honor players just wanted to masturbate until they won. That's not an enjoyable experience for their opponents at all. In fact, the new game takes everything that was horrible (which is significant) about the old game and made a more streamlined l5r experience. The LCG is by far the superior product between the two.
Say what you want. As someone loved to play defence decks (don't even say they forced themselves) i, as military player mostly, loved to crush them. Where's lack of joy? Enlighten me.
There is no enlightening you, Kempy. You hated the new l5r at the moment it was sold. It could be the best card game ever created and you would still try and trash on it. I loved playing the CCG. I was sad when it got sold, but let's be honest, the game was dying off. I'd rather the game come out as an lcg by a different company than not have anyone to play with in the CCG. FFG made a great game. They took a game that had a LOT of turn offs for new players and made it better without all the turn offs. This is the only game that FFG outright owns and I know for a fact they are gonna put a lot of resources in to making this game a hit. And it's already showing with what they are doing at gencon and the op tourneys. It really doesn't matter to me if you keep your ccg goggles on, Kempy. But the new game is by far a superior product to the old game. And much more enjoyable and approachable.
Very good review, thanks. The only point I find strange is considering a 2-2.5h game as lengthy. For a strategy game, 2 hours is pretty straight forward, imo.
You must be new here. For me this game got a five gold star rating for excellence when Zee didn't fall over laughing about the length and the likelihood that he would want to play it. :3
It really isn't too long. 40-45 minutes is a typical game length. AND you don't have to play two games each round with different decks. I'm sure it takes longer to play a match of netrunner than it does for l5r. And it costs the same as netrunner.
The only thing i do t understand if you know the maximum amount is 3 why not put it all i one box instead of making me buy 3 even if the price would be as much as 3. It just feels like im getting drained on money buy deciding to buy 30 some dollars when i know I've gotta spend 90. This has made me decide no altogether. Expansions coming out fast as hell. Money money money ill pass.
Think of it this way you get enough to try the game, there's a list in the rulebook to make two basic decks to start. If you don't like it well you've only dropped the 30-40 bucks. If you want to go deeper on it, then go ahead and pick up another box or two to implement using full playsets of cards.
Fair enough.Ok then there should be a starter box then a big deluxe box with all the cards maybe the starter box could have card that the core doesn't lol. But regardless I just think it should be easier than wasting all that cardboard on extra boxes and not to mention rules.
Is this really a lot longer than Netrunner/Conquest? Because I am interested but 90 mins average game time sounds like too long a playtime for an LCG for me
Having played the game quite a bit, I'd say that Zee was overstating its length. Once people have gotten used to the game I expect ~60 minutes per match to be the standard.
when i played and confident to know what to do it is about 10 min per round and u can win ideally in about 6-7 rounds which makes it around 60-70 min game obviously longer in beginner state where u need to look up what to do rund to round...
I don't know how they are handling the starter box in this game. What was frustrating with Netrunner was that you needed 3 starter boxes to get all 3 copies of some cards. It is what prevented me from liking the game as I was unwilling to pay extra for a few extra copies of the few cards that had only 1 copy in the starter. Things would be better if you only needed only 2 copies of the box, but generally, when a company starts a game with a move like that, I tend to stay away. Then again, this is FFG so dick moves like that is to be expected. BTW, this was a great review. I feel I have a very good understanding of how the game plays after watching it once.
cartoon80s90s Three core set purchase equals about $120 US, which is incredibly valued compared to Magic the Gathering, and some deluxe, board games are creeping up to that price tag, like Twilight Emperium 4th edition coming in at $150 US
By the time you get your third copy the value has dropped significantly. You are basically paying for the tokens and the bulk of the cards of which you will already have 4-6 copies (or6-9 copies after you get the third box) and which you will throw away. I wish they had an expansion with all the cards needed to complete a full set. Spending $120 and then throwing away $40-50 makes no sense to me, which why I have stayed away from games which follow this model.
The problem is that this is "their" game format in the sense that they are the experts: The only other company that tried was AEG with Doomtown: Reloaded; and they basically gave up and sold the rights to L5R to FFG. I would have loved it if someone took the old Babylon 5 CCG and made an LCG from that, but I can't think of which publisher would bother with making the effort that a game of this type to compete with the FFG behemoth. Maybe Cryptozoic but they stick with their Cerberus engine and I don't know how amendable that is to the "episodic" format of an ECG/LCG. What will be interesting is that Eric M. Lang now is working for CMON and he was the main designer behind all pre-L5R LCGs that FFG made...
All the new LCGs have mostly singletons in the core (full play set in all other products). L5R is the same way according to the spoiled box contents. L5R needs to be that way to keep the core set contents consistent with their other products (thus keeping the price the same). They have 7 factions and each clan needs two 40 card decks (30 card decks for a single core game) so that's requires a fairly large card pool right out the gate. I prefer the new system since it keeps the redundant purchases valuable, but that does mean there will be a huge difference between a 1x core collection and a 3x core collection and it seems pretty certain that a 1x core collection won't be able to construct a standard tournament deck. They did announce all the kick off tournaments will follow the 1x core deck building rules though so there is that.
The Rings add quite a bit to the game by setting the reward condition for each conflict and the honor mechanic give you another dimension to worry about. I've played the new L5R and I like it better than AGOT. Conquest is still my favorite of the FFG card games. Too bad it's discontinued :(
The art in the game is kind of weird though. Its suppose to be set in Japan right? A lot of the art looks like some random comicon cosplayers. Its very Americanized for sure which is kind of weird. For example the scorpion girl on the cover looks like one of my friends from college in a kimono. Especially Kakia Kaezin, I thought in the lore some Europeans visited or something but its looking more like John Wayne playing Gengis Khan. Other than that the arts great its just weird.
UmJammerSully with a lot of plays and people who really know the game. Typically though you’re looking an hour minimum, and it’s going to be a while before we have veterans at this game. First few games have been a major slog though adapting to it, more so then Netrunnner.
i have tried this game... never again, after two hours we weren't close to the end, i didn't feel the theme and i didn't fully understand some cards... too much for me
Wartooth91 im italian and the italian version is quite complicated... the translation made on some cards is tricky, so the rulebook too. Also, The guy who explained me this game did a huge mess, he didn't know well the rules and my game experience was not so great.
I would be horrifically shocked if games went to 90 minutes after getting good at it. Will probably settle in around 20-30 minutes with efficient play. As that's about what it was for me in Old5R and this one has a much more explosive start than that.
hmm... not a fan of the back and forth gameplay of you take an action then I take an action. It's one of the reasons I couldn't get into Ashes. I prefer that each player has an entire round of actions to play like in Magic or Hearthstone, or LotR LCG. Long game times is a bummer. For a competitive game, I feel 20-30 minutes is ideal, 45 tops. Oh well at least my wallet is sighing in relief. ;)
I can assure you that game times are typically about 45 minutes once you've got a few games in and know what you're doing. As with any game, it always takes longer to play until you get the rules down and understand the game play better.
Amazing how a game can be so appealing because of its mechanics, art and theme.. and at the same time make me not even consider buying it because of the ridiculous price.. buy 3 times the same product? WTF Comparing to MTG makes no sense as it doesnt really aim the same market (i never played it for example) and MTG is also an arbitrarily expensive game. They ONLY profit from card rarity! FGG could just sell a mega core set with 3 copies of everything for, say, 75 USD all the while keeping the core set as it is for the same price as an option. But no.. greediness has to rule
Still, it was a very informative and objective review. For me the play time is a huge obstacle. 90+ minutes for a card game it is certainly not on the '+' of the game.
Tom always says that whoever likes the game the best or it is most in their wheelhouse gets to review it. He must have wanted to review it, or he liked it better then Tom or Sam.
ENTPDuelist You'll play your first game in about an hour and a half to get familiar with gameflow. Then, a few games later, you'll see a winner in about forty minutes. The new L5R cuts pretty quickly to honor victories or military breakthroughs.
This is by far the better game over AGoT. I have a lot of people here locally that I've demo'd this game to who play Thrones and everyone of them are gonna start playing L5R now. The games don't take an hour and a half once get familiar with the rules and game play. Trust me. 40-45 minutes is a typical game.
I really do despise the honor dial mechanically and thematically. Mechanically it makes it a hassle to play with more than 2 players. Thematically I hate it because it requires some clans that are supposed to be great and honorable duelists lose honor to ensure a win. Other than that I really do like what I've seen for the game. My only complaints all seem to come from that honor dial.
Yeah, you're not supposed to play with more than 2 players. If FFG decide to make a multiplayer format at some point, I'm sure they'll figure out what, if anything, to do with the honor dials.
I've played the Lion clan quite a few times with proxy cards. The way you play a strictly honorable way is you always bid 1 in the draw phase. You never lose honor that way and they usually give you honor. You don't need the extra draw usually unless you are desperate. Just mulligan first turn for things you really need and play out of the dynasty deck. Often I rocket right up to the upper end of honor quickly forcing the opponent to deal with it.
haha. I suppose if you are trying to make a 2 player game in to a multiplayer game, the honor dial would turn you off. But that's why it's a 2 player game and NOT a multiplayer game in the first place. Why be mad at a mechanic for doing what it's supposed to be doing?? :p
Oh My GOSH! This game looks ridiculous. Bearly 8 minutes in, so much has been skipped over, but needless convoluted for a two player TCG. It's like they are trying to make a Euro style TCG. There is no way I'm investing in this game.
This is not a good review if you want to learn how to play the game. The game does have a lot of moving parts, but if you've played the original or AGOT LCG, the extra steps are not that much further to go to learn how it works.
I haven't played either of those but had no problems setting up a game and start playing with an opponent who had even less experience with this kind of card game. Of course mistakes where made but the basics where easy. And now, just a few games in we play with confidence and few mistakes.
Have FFG run out of ideas? Since GW left it seems like everything they're dishing up is just a re-hash or reimplement of some other game with a different name slapped on. Time to get some new designers guys. L5R becomes the new and improved L5R (debatable) X wing/Rune Wars becomes legion Arkham horror flogged to death in several forms. Twilight Imperium 4 another one GOT LCG 2 another one GOT the board game becomes wait for it..... L5R Battle for Rokugan. Yep, even has the player screens. I'm interested in Fallout because it's original and new, forget the rest.
It should be perfectly clear by now that the LCG model is nothing more than a cleverly disguised cash grab. You'll invest basically the same amount of money in those games as you do with any CCG. And I really despise those low card count core boxes which would get a pretty mediocre rating if you treat it like a standalone boardgame.
ahzrab Same as a CCG on money? Not even close. Let's just compare to Destiny. To get a full play set you need two of each starter and then at LEAST 3 boxes of boosters. That's a bare minimum, you may need more and you need those 3 boxes for each release. Three releases a year means you are spending $1000+ at a minimum and you have to do that every year. They will be bringing out new starters each year. For an LCG full play set you need 3 Core sets, then usually 1 pack a month and maybe 2 "deluxe boxes" a year. That comes to about $380 at MSRP for the year. Then you don't need new core sets because they don't do that for following years so your annual cost is about $275. If you don't like LCG that's fine, but compared to CCG it is MUCH cheaper, not even close.
randomjunk1977 If I buy a mtg deck for $1500, I can play it, trade it for another deck or sell it one year later for probably an equal price (or even maybe for profit). If I buy in a LCG with three or four cycles, I pay like $800, have to pay constantly each month to stay competitive and can sell the game for a whooping $150. No thanks man, I stay with the game where I can easily get out and get my investment back.
huh.. sell a ccg deck one year after it's been competitively rellevant and make profit? I don't think so also you're comparing two different thing : ONE deck for 1500$ vs one FULL PLAYSET OF ALL THE CARDS IN THE GAME. you also need to pay each 2-3ish month to stay competitive in any ccgs, ands it's 10 time the price of what you pay in lcgs. I also think you're exaggerating the selling value but I'im no expert
