Leonard Bernstein and Maximilian Schell discuss some of the aspects of the Symphony No. 6 "Pastoral" and Symphony No. 7 by Ludwig Van Beethoven. They also discuss his life and how he composed some of his music.
What's fascinating about Beethoven's struggles to come up with the right notes, as Berstein describes here, is that Beethoven was a supreme improviser. Beethoven's struggles are more a reflection of his uncompromising will for perfection.
Absolutely brilliant observation. The reason I don’t enjoy composing myself is because of my natural ability to instantly improvise melodies and it drives me insane to compose. I can never choose what to put down, there are are too many choices and decision to create, as Bernstein puts it, the “form”. That’s why creating ambient sound scapes based on vertical layering with no discernible beginning or end to the composition, as opposed to a linear melody, is enjoyable to me.
stellar point, I would imagine that Beethoven had an endless amount of avenues he could venture into. While improvising, those avenues could be explored and then vanish as soon as he finished playing. Writing down the notes on paper might have made every choice feel so much more critical to get correct, because once you publish a piece its permanent.
Agree or disagree with Bernstein. His intellect and art are both eloquent and accessible. A truly unique talent and educator. His Norton lectures are a treasure.
Gotta love Bernstein’s personality. Strong bones and strong hands usually translate into a personality. He talks with great subtlety about delicate things, but his body says “rough”, “powerful”, “get out of my fucking way” assertiveness.
Leonard Bernstein & Maximilian Schell. Two great men. One a legendary music composer and the other a legendary actor. Both sadly gone but not forgotten.
When he said the "negatives" about Beethoven, he was trying to tell you that Beethoven was able to create those beautiful pieces out of the melodies and harmonies that appear to be so simple. That was the gist of his words, everything else was not as important! As he said, Beethoven was doing what no one else could. He was not trying to judge Beethoven, but rather, praise the genius in Beethoven in his own way. A great upload. Thanks!
What musical genius could ever claim that Beethoven was not a great melody writer? Perhaps a jealous fool who never produced anything substantial himself, whose works are completely irrelevant only a few decades after being produced.
@@willashland4597why would a music lecturer hate on Beethoven while tecching about him? Dont you think you re mistaking a musical scholar concept for hate? If you listen to Bernstein more often you d know how he establish the difference between melody, harmony, symphony.. you re the one spurrign jealousy here with your comment.
@@dimitricayard630 Bernstein is not qualified to speak on Beethoven in the slightest. As I said before, Beethoven was a fantastic melodist and composer of harmony. As a student of music myself I am more than qualified to speak on the three elements of music (melody, harmony, rhythm... not symphony as you stated). If Bernstein says Beethoven was a lackluster conposer of melodies, or that any child could have composed the second movement of the 7th Symphony, then I say Bernstein is talking out of his ass. No hate, just recognizing that there are levels to these things. And while Bernstein is a great keyboard player and conductor, he is a lackluster composer since most people and even music fans are completely unfamiliar with his forgettable works.
@@willashland4597 allow me to point out that you are either funny or lack some coherence here. while You are using the fact that you are a musical student to refute Berstein's comment on Beethoven, do you even ask yourself from which kind of right does Berstein allows himself to comment on Beethoven lol? Berstein might have been just a random man trying to comment on magicals composers to make a living lol ? You re using your scholar background to diminish the work of a far greater scholar than you. Come on now. "wise" yourself down a bit. By the way I wish you success in your musical studies. I appreciate anything others can do better than me. Peace !
@@dimitricayard630 It sounds to me like you are committing an appeal to authority fallacy here. Your claim seems to be that Bernstein is a high ranking professor of music, therefore he must be right and we cannot understand it because we are so far beneath his credentials. This is a form of elitism which gives maybe too much validity to training and stature and underemphasizes one's own capabilities. By music student, I mean that I have played music all my life. I know pieces by Beethoven, Chopin, Debussy, Rachmaninoff, and can elaborate on the musical theory, the imagery and expression, the technique, and many other things. This doesn't give me the same esteem as Bernstein but I can certainly hold my own when discussing a certain piece of music. I just think Bernstein's claims about Beethoven are crap. Some individuals with esteem will use their unique position to make claims that seem exactly opposite to what is actually true, because they believe their position allows them to make a seemingly contradictory and incorrect claim which would only add to their esteem and mystique since the unwashed mortals could never possibly understand it. I think that is what Bernstein did here, sort of using his prestige to make an outlandish claim knowing that few other people living would have the reputation to even question it publicly. There is a lot of elitism in academic and concert circles, and a lot of people sniffing their own farts. I think this is a video of Bernstein sniffing his own farts but they will never be as good as Beethoven's
What makes Beethoven unique to me is that from an almost non-melody he was able to weave what, to me, is among the most beautiful, expressive and emotive melodies of all. Every note of the 6th Symphony astounds me but, without fail, when a few bars of the simplest woodwind phrase enters in the final movement, it provokes the most profound reaction in me. It sends me close to tears every time without fail and, even though my ear knows it intimately by now, it continues to astound me. These are tears not of sadness but of an indescribable beauty. A simple phrase makes the whole symphony complete. That's Beethoven for me. The individual bars are unremarkable surely, but every one of them is necessary, appropriate, required.
Graham, this is beautifully expressed. I think Bernstein misses a very important point you made: the building blocks he uses are not important. The effect of the whole is what's important. To me, Beethoven's melodies are the most beautiful of all because they're the most evocative and emotionally salient. It doesn't matter that their basic building blocks might by themselves be uninteresting. The basic building blocks are not the melody. The whole is the melody. So to me Beethoven is the greatest melodist we've had because of the emotional effect his melodies produce on the listener.
@@julieconnard4372 I agree with you Julie. Beethoven IS one of the greatest melodists who ever lived, however he arrived at them. I think Bernstein is fascinating whenever he talks about music but he is also a controversialist (not unlike Beethoven). Tovey had a better idea of Beethoven and melody when he said that Beethoven transforms/ transfigures melody into something higher, something else (I can't remember the exact words but it was along those lines). Glenn Gould was another great teacher and thinker about music who also liked to put forward controversial ideas. Thank God for them all.
@davetubervid Indeed, thank God for them all. I really like what Tovey said, about Beethoven transfiguring melody into something higher. I think that's a perfect understanding of him. And I think that's why Beethoven took longer to write than Mozart or Haydn. B wasn't looking for melody for its own sake. he was looking for something higher. And for our sake, it's a darned good thing that he so often found it.
If only Mozart had remained alive to hear Beethoven’s symphonies, all nine of them. Mozart was most influenced by Bach but if he had listened to the mature Beethoven it would have had a profound effect on his music.
Bernstein was the greatest American-born conductor, a fine American composer of classical music who was also composed the music for arguably the most popular Broadway musical (West Side Story). He was also a very good pianist and a wonderful teacher. His passion and his love for Beethoven is obvious. It's not that we have to agree with everything Bernstein has to say about the music, it's that his enthusiasm, his passion, his ability to express deep musical theory in accessible yet articulate language, that also causes us to love the music. America's most famous psychologist, BF Skinner, once said something along the lines that school's shouldn't teach children to read, they should teach children to love books. That's what Bernstein does, he teaches us to love music. Bernstein's thoughts on Beethoven are well-taken, at least by me. He's not putting Beethoven down because other composers could do some things better than Beethoven. He's saying that Beethoven's hard work and creative genius is what makes the music great despite some obvious limitations. Bernstein's first Beethoven cycle that he made for Columbia with the New York Philharmonic is my favorite above Karajan, Furtwangler, Szell, Hogwood, Toscanini and all others I've heard.
Beautifully said! I love what you said about Beethoven's creative genius, the whole being more than the sum of its parts. Bernstein really revered Beethoven and "knew" him well. Lenny was supremely gifted and talented, but I think his ability to teach and convey his love of music was his greatest gift of all. When you watch him conduct, it's as though he can't contain his joy. I have a CD set of Bernstein and the NY Phil doing the cycle of Beethoven's symphonies, along with several overtures and the Violin Concerto (Isaac Stern!)...I have a couple of major road trips coming in the Fall, and I can't wait to spend some quality time with Ludwig van, Lenny, Isaac and the NY Phil!
@coach garcia I love the skinner comparison. Lenny loved music and it bled into everything he did. And like a good hearted child with extra candy, he wanted to share it. And I agree about his conducting. I love Von Karajan and especially Kleiber. But there was a magic when Lenny conducted Beethoven. Especially the symphonies. No one did the third or the sixth like him. Magical.
Can you give me a few examples of people who taught deep musical theory who were not accessible and articulate in their language? I'd like to contrast their approach to doing so with Bernstein's.
I was referring to the idea that fartx211 was trying to understand this video and not enjoy it. Great art is supposed to transcend things like trying to understand it as opposed to just feeling it. Maybe I was a little harsh at this person. And I respect your point of view, even if you called me an asshole.
REMORF AND CFC: I speak to both of your apparent deficits: the abundant musical ones and your low-level of comprehension. Your noises are little more than the abject commentaries of puerile poseurs. You have, apparently, missed your true callings as bear-trainers or swine-herds. I have some Mistletoe, left over from Xmas, it's taped to the small of my back, please feel free to come over and put it to use....anytime..... Show less
Yes! We casually smoked in those days..... What a moment, to hear about Beethoven's struggles and issues, and see Maximilian Schell spellbound by Bernstein..... Thank you!
Bernstein died aged 72 of heart failure (premature), but he was subject to frequent respiratory infections, emphysema and had some kind of pulmonary tumor.
The Maestro was perfect in every way. The genius of geniuses. He can do no wrong on my eyes. I was born with his music playing and I’ll be lowered with his music playing.
Great explanation, which I still don't fully understand (after 40 yrs of playing music), but I love Bernstein pulling his cig out at 1.40 without missing a beat explaining Beethovens concept and approach. A true legend.
I( was lucky enough to buy (in early 1960s) a Beethovens 3rd symphony which included an EP of Leonard Berstein discussing the sympnony. I have been an absolute admirer of his depth and understanding of his passion for Beethoven since then
I don't agree that Beethoven never wrote a great fugue. I think that is a nonsense suggestion when Op. 106 exists, arguably one of the greatest fugues ever.
I agree with you but I think what Bernstein meant was that compared to Beethoven's achievement in getting the right form or inevitable notes, his achievement in any particular aspect of music is relatively pale. He wasn't a strong melodist and nor exceptional in counterpoint; one can't really be a great conventional fugue writer without being both. The Grosse Fuge is great but not in the conventional why -- which is what make it exceptional, but also makes Beethoven *not* a conventional fugue composer.
Absolutely. Beethoven's struggle with producing outstanding melodies burdened him (probably) in the same way that Tchaikovsky struggled with form of his larger works. The two composers had almost mirror opposite problems.
It's a true scotsman argument to say that Beethoven didn't write a good fugue. What is a 'good fugue'? What is a fugue? Both questions are imponderable.
1st movement of op. 131 string quartet is one of my favourite fugues of all time with very unconventional harmony, its hauntingly beautiful and musically communicates futility and hopelessness in the doomed pursuit of hope. I don't agree with that either!
Even as a child I was enthralled by the slow movement of the 7th --- now Bernstein has explained why -- it was simply 'phoned in from God' .... brilliant comment!
Always fascinating...ever knowledgable...Schell like many of us found him captivating. For me, his piano performing, and role as teacher were the highlight of his world, and his gifts.
At 7:05 Maximilian Schell asks Bernstein what makes Beethoven interesting..... and Lenny's answer is probably the pithiest, yet most profound, statement of what makes Beethoven great. Maybe the greatest. _"And what has finally appeared as the finished product looks as though it was simply phoned in from God."_ Hard to believe that Bernstein has been gone for over 30 years! And yet, thanks to his recordings and something he'd never even heard of in his life, the Internet, his wisdom lives on for future generations.
Bernstein says that Beethoven was not this or that but he implies that Beethoven was about much more than individual components. Clearly this is someone who studied Beethoven like few by considering manuscripts, historical context and even accounts from Beethoven's personal life! I just think that it's easy-and cheap really- to simplify Bernstein's argument to "Beethoven was a bad orchestrator" despite the fact that that's what he literally says. There's something to be said about the fact that Bernstein's last concert was Beethoven 7. I just think most viewers miss the point.
I hear what you say. Bernstein likes to be provocative. i suspect he really meant that beethoven didn't follow all of the rules of music theory. but in so doing he managed to create greatness from relatively meager material, such as the fugal material beginning the second movement of his seventh symphony.
Lennie, I can forgive the wrong notes in lieu of the vast information, and style you impart to us with your cunning insight into the musical creativity of our Beethoven. Spreading knowledge was your souls gift, and I hope that continues into the next realm.
You completely missed the point. What Lenny was talking about is not the ability of finding the missing note of a given melody or harmony like in a music school test, but just the genius of creating music that sounds impredictable yet so right and inevitable like Beethoven's. Otherwise, you must agree, all trained composers could be him. Bernstein speech must be taken in a metaphoric and broader way, trying to explain what otherwise is hardly explicable: Beethoven's Gestalt.
Very interesting how the melody launches on a single note carried to a full bloom by basically ornamentations. Great lectures. Makes me experience music with a renewed freshness.
Fascinating. I am a music-lover with no training in music. My tastes are broad, and I have always held Bernstein in the very highest regard as a composer. And here he uses the very words-the very words-that I use to describe his work to describe Beethoven: each note in every piece is unpredictable but inevitable and the only possible option which resonates with the work as a whole. Bernstein here claims the Beethoven wrote as if he had a telephone connection with God. I’ve often thought the same of Bernstein.
You can see Bernstein's playful, flirtatious (even with another man!) spirit at around 5:50. That smile creeping across his face, as he goes on to ask a schoolboyish, docilely-listening Schell, "Do you like that melody? You do? So do I." Always has me roaring with laughter. One of my favourite clips on YT!
@@SarahJones-wy5us What's your point? Lenny was charismatic and very much a social animal. Just because he was bisexual doesn't mean he had sexual feelings for every man, just as a straight person doesn't have sexual feelings towards everyone of the opposite sex.
@@annedwyer797 The point is wasted on you ,in the earlier comment it was thought amazing that Bernstein could flirt with another man,that is the "Point" you totally misconstrued.
Got it wrong ...Leonard Bernstein was saying..That He Loved Beethoven In that his Genius was in the Form of his Efforts not The Technical Melodic Orchestra Arrangements
It's always so interesting to hear Lennie talk music. And that Beethoven is not a great melodist, which I've often thought, but I thought it would get me trouble to say so.
Here is my take on Beethoven's supposed lack of a melodic gift. When he wanted to, he could write a melody up there with anybody--the G Major intermezzo in the slow movement of the 9th Symphony, the cello solo at the beginning of the slow movement of Op. 59 #1, the second theme of the slow movement of the Second Symphony etc. etc. etc. But the thing about a gorgeous melody a la Tchaikovsky is that it has a beginning, a middle, and end--and then you are done. You either have to repeat it, get locked in a sequence or, as Prokofiev did all too often, pull a Monty Python "And now for something completely different" move. A very few composers--Schubert, Dvorak--got around this problem with a relaxed, digressive style, but this was not in Beethoven's musical character. And it is interesting to note that in many of Schubert's most compelling large-scale structures, such as the Ninth Symphony and the G Major Quartet, he eschews conventionally beautiful melodies much of the time. So Beethoven needed building blocks which were not complete in themselves to create a continuous compelling structure.
yeah the problem is that Bernstein restricted his definition of melody to an arching sequence of notes found in others like Tchaikovsky. It's pretty weird since he's quite fond of Stravinsky's le Sacre du Printemps, which in it's entirety is filled with Stravinsky constructing giant structures by combining small phrases without a classical, arching melody
Nocynic: I really like your angle of approach, and I couldn't agree more. Another example of this is the slow movement of Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto, beholden to Mozart but with several twists and turns that are totally Beethoven... Often it isn't about the melody but what he can do with variations to enhance the original melody - therein lies his stunning ability to surprise. For those that think Beethoven wasn't a great melodist (along with his uncanny ability to develop a melody) I think his song "Adelaide" is a great example to the contrary. Schubert definitely admired this one. Cheers, FB ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oACZdxbGmqw.html
@@skisunfb But the surprise element you mention there (which can relate to others like Mozart perhaps) suggests there isn't that inevitability. That would make something too predictable, so I think Bernstein romanticises. Mozart and Bach probably flow more in general.
@@NewMusicWeekly For me, that depends on which Mahler you are talking about. I would agree that a number of his middle period symphonies are rather diffuse. But the First, Second, and Ninth have extraordinary structural integrity.
Interesting drawing room fare with two guys who reached the top of their professions. Both Lenny and Max have left us. Lenny reached the top of the music world and Maximilian Schell (who passed just over a year ago as of this writing, in Feb 2014), earned a 1962 Academy Award for best actor.
@@Lee_music249 It doesn't have any relevance? Bernstein explaining these things to an obviously well-trained musician is much different than explaining it to a non-musician. it's very relevant seeing how two musicians work together to gain a better understanding of a piece of music.
I do have two volumes of his correspondence and conversation books. A great book I would recommend is the "Beethoven Compendium," edited by Barry Cooper. There's a great essay in there called "Beethoven as an Individual," wherein the author talks about LvB's chronic illnesses (and there were many), but says "...in spite of his poor health he appeared robust, and his productivity was surprisingly little affected." Quite a different picture from Bernstein's!
I think that Bernstein was spot on when he talked about buds and flowers opening in Beethoven’s music . . I get a wonderful feeling that the soul of the music/composer is *unfurling* as it goes along
I love how Bernstein talks about Beethoven's ability to produce music that was 'inevitable'. The notes, chords, movement of the music are as they were ment to be.
It looks like Bernstein is enjoying a scotch as well. Good for him. I can't quite be sure Beethoven's ability to find each right note "inevitably" (as Lenny puts it) was greater than Mozart's but it's a meaningless issue anyway. It's so wonderful to have Bernstein's Omnibus lectures, the Harvard lectures and, of course, the Young People's Concerts on You Tube. He was an enormous and multifaceted talent.
Upon composing the 'Hallelujah Chorus,' in his oratorio Messiah, Handel stated: "I think I did see all heaven before me, and the great God himself." A telephone wire. . . . 🎶
Beethoven never wrote a good fugue? What? The fugue from the Hammerklavier sonata? And from sonata 31 op. 110? Furthermore, the Grosse Fuge is considered to be one of the greatest fugues ever written, equaled perhaps only by late Bach.
Beethoven was considered a bad fugue writer at his time. In order to prove everybody wrong he wrote the Grosse Fugue and other fugues, however they were all still deemed unsuccessful and he was still considered as a bad fugue writer. However time proved everybody else wrong, he is a fantastic fugue writer is just that his music is so ahead of his time.
+GermanOperaSinger Fugues were dead in Beethoven's day. The minuet was in. And the march. You can hear in Beethoven's music the constant battle between the two. Beethoven loved to accent the second beat in the minuet, constantly trying to destroy its minuet form and introduce a 2/4 march.
Whatever you think of those pieces, you cannot deny that Beethoven had a thorough understanding of counterpoint. So why did Bernstein say he did not? I don't get it...
I don't agree with everything Bernstein says here but his basic point that Beethoven's genius was about form is spot on. Most of Beethoven's melodies are on the level of nursery rhymes but then he moves on from there and creates an irresistible flow that moves on and on with a sense of "inevitability" as Bernstein says.
I don't think his criticism is puzzling, and I find it all the more admirable that he opens with scathing critique, to end his story with some of the most profound praise I've ever heard of a composer's work.
@@thenobody7904 And again, you simply can not ''prove'' why X or Y is good or bad. It's all opinions, and this is what Bernstein thought. Wether harmony or melody is good or not isn't maths or science-something you can prove-it's all opinions. You cannot prove an opinion is false, nor can you prove a melody is objectively good. Simple as that.
@@thenobody7904 Again, this is utter tripe. Just because you think you can prove a melody is good, doesn't mean everyone who hears it thinks it is good, because the quality of all art is opinion based. Good day, you literal nobody.
@@thenobody7904 "Yes, maybe for them it is but objectively..." And that's when I stopped reading. A hilariously ironic and contradicting sentence my friend.
So I just watched this video where Bernstein declares that the second movement of the 7th isn't much of a melody. My girlfriend overheard that small piano part from the other room, apparently has it stuck in her head, and is now humming the entire movement to herself while she works on the computer. I think that makes a statement.
It's typical because of Bernstein's academic background to consider a melody good if it follows certain rules. Beethoven wasn't capable of creating this classical definition of melody (check out sonata 13 mov. 2), but he was merely composing that way because he wanted it that way at that instance
@@lordspongebobofhousesquare1616 Exactly Beethoven didn't compose melodies the "right way" but I think he is basically saying that you can't judge Beethoven by these conventional standards
I was brought here by someone criticising Beethoven and quoting this video in favour of Mozart as a greater composer. And I can see in the comments here that most people focused in the outrageous claims Bernstein made and missed the whole point: he's basically saying that no matter how many faults you find in Beethoven's way of composing, his music is THE most divine, perfect in it's own revolutoinary way, and above all other composers, EVEN Mozart. Perfect example of how people take things out of context for to support their own claims. Whether you agree with Bernstein or not, THIS is what he's saying.
I like what you said! I'm not a musician, just a devoted lover of music. It's hard for me to think Beethoven wasn't a great melodist, but I've never had any music theory training! With Mozart, I always find myself thinking "how could one guy write so much beautiful music??"; with Beethoven, I wonder "how could one guy write so much magnificent and emotionally powerful music?"
How would you rank Beethoven's symphonies? I'd go with: 1. 9th 2. 3rd 3. 5th 4. 6th 5. 7th 6. 8th 7. 4th 8. 1st 9. 2nd 9th and 3rd are so universally acclaimed, that's it's not a surprise, 9th has more of the grandeur that I find more appealing. I had a harder time picking between 5th, 6th, and 7th. 5th has absolutely legendary outer movements, so I picked it 3rd, while the 6th is strong overall with a more gentle mood when, 7th maybe has the most rousing final movement after incredible movements 1 and 2. 8th is very cleverly composed, but lacks any proper slow movement, 4th has an amazing fast part of the 1st movement, but it doesn't strike that deeply emotionally. Symphonies 1st and 2nd aren't as good as the rest, they have more classical period characteristics. Early piano sonatas by Beethoven are already very strong musically, but he truly found his very own orchestral language in the 3rd symphony. 1st has more compelling subjects than the 2nd for me. , I know you like the 2nd more.
The thing is, he doesn't even LOOK at his hands, just drops them onto the keyboard and plays the EXACT chord from the EXACT symphony he is referring to, as if they're a sort of musical rolodex he can scroll through and stop at any point.
