As a judge (not DCI level but still a judge), I can't STAND it when people say "it's rigged". People that make stupid comments like that absolutely attack the VERY INTEGRITY of the judge him or herself. Pisses me off to no end. I know MANY of the DCI judges and I know how hard they work and I know for a fact how taxing it is on them to "make decisions". The other part of this equation that people don't understand is that staff members have the chance to talk to the judges after a show to clarify and ask questions. If it was "rigged" there would be none of that opportunity to talk to the judges--as far as I'm concerned. The judges have a tough job. VERY tough. But they are professionals...they DO try their best....and maybe on any given day they may make a mistake. But nothing is "intentional"--at least not in my view. Another bit of judging wisdom came to me a VERY long time ago from Lee Carlson...he said at the very upper levels of the activity (DCI or WGI or BOA), you stop being a judge....and start being a critic. In the sense of being like a movie critic or an art critic. The differences in shows at those levels sometimes comes down to the spirit or energy of the performers and HOW THE HECK DO YOU RATE AND RANK THAT? LOL....it's soooo difficult. BTW--great video. WELL DONE!!
Dude.. Thank you for weighing in and for all you do for the community. I loved the recordings from all my old judges (2000 - 2004). Their feedback was so valuable and I could never imagine the judge's insights were anything other than a huge value added. One of my best memories in the activity were our sessions when we all listened to the tapes and discussed them in our sections. The scores were always substantiated by these recordings, and I couldn't imagine it is that much different these days.
Yes, but you can’t deny that there is some subjectivity in their judging. For example in music analysis how do you explain how one judge can score Crown as first and another judge score them forth in the same category in the 2023 DCI prelims. Maybe we need to have some of the tick-system back with analysis. Or every corps has certain requirements and are judged accordingly along with showmanship. Other sports can accomplish it fairly, take gymnastics for example, they’re judged on certain techniques of required moves along with their presentation. Presently, judges have too much power of interpretation analysis. Another example, Boston has a very difficult color guard show and were flawless in prelims. BD had a couple of drops and flag timing issues and they got top color guard?! 🤷♀️ Something needs to change. As it is, the DCI organization is completely corporate and is getting smaller and smaller as the old diehards from many local corps who support local shows are slowly fading and less people are going to pay $30-$50 to see a local show of 2-3 Corps performances.
@@neversaynever7438 That was his whole point. Judges deserve respect because it is subjective, making it difficult to make decisions as a judge.. They're highly qualified professionals who can at least substantiate their scoring even when it isn't consistent with other judges. Perhaps an interrater reliability test could be done with judges. Idk but it isn't "rigged" like some idiots seem to think.
This is a great overview! As a judge myself, one thing folks might not know is our spread guidelines. We rank the corps in the order we think is right and then basically rate how different they are to each other. We're typically not allowed to give sub-caption ties, so if you see a judge scoring corps 1 point away from each other, the guidelines say it's basically a toss up with the edge going to one.
GE v. Music & Visual. On one hand, I have to remember that this is an artistic activity and thus the general effect of the art is very important; on the other hand, the performers don’t design the shows or write the music, they are only performing what is written/designed for them. So, I also feel like execution/proficiency should be weighted more than than general effect…or at least equal. If that were the case, according to what you said about which captions are more objective, we would have seen some different (and more objective) final placements and winners over the last 20+ years. Thoughts? Btw, I’m not a BD hater.
GE has a performance aspect as well, and the music and visual captions have content and composition scores that aren’t under the control of the performer either.
If you account for the sub caption of “performers” within the general effect caption then one could argue that 80 points out of the total 100 is more dependent on the execution of the performers and that last 20 has to do with the design of the show. But yes you make a valid point
I’m getting tired of watching top scoring groups that clearly have developed pro-level masterful skills, but are just not as fun to watch as some of the “hungry” corps who have so much fire and energy and heart.
To your point, not having two judges for percussion is head scratching, IMO. The Pit and the Drum line can be very technical individually, most notably, with the more "developed" program. Great explanation! Thank you.
The field judge isn’t allowed to go very far onto the field though and I’ve seen a lot of field judges spending most of the time analyzing the front ensemble before running out to catch the front field battery moments.
They should let me judge( I literally just pick who I think should win based off of who has the best uniforms) (Also as a synth I thank you for that little comment at 5:57🤞🏽🤞🏽)
Nice job in presenting a fairly complex topic. I am alum of the "Ticks" era and even stood rigidly at Attention on an Inspection Line. Given the way i was raised in the Activity, i have had doubts about the existence of an objective foundation to a subjective evaluation adjudication methodology. But your detailing of criteria that must be met to achieve the number (rating) instills more confidence that caption category scores are indeed earned and not simply awarded without a basis. Good Stuff !
What I never understood was how every corps show scores slightly higher every single performance from being judged by different judges at each performance. Like can the judges really tell the smallest of differences each performance to say it’s just slightly better than the last one? Or do they consider the most previous scores?
I have judged(not dci but other musical events) and yes you kind of set a standard and a standard deviation and go from there. Not “hmmm yes 18.5 no 18.4” more like “okay that group was about a notch above the last one and about two notches better than the one after”
thank you for this video! it explains a lot, however I am really curious as to what makes the difference between those very tight point gaps. like what is the difference between a 19.0 and a 19.5. I find it difficult to understand these differences. It would be great if you could show examples of these differences, or point out what makes these differences when watching a show.
It all comes down to the small things. The corps performing may have been perfect that night but they may have had a tiny slip up. The corps that has that gap between them probably didn’t show any slip ups which is why you get these small point differences. I’ve only been following the activity for a couple of years now but I think I understand the judging system enough to know where a corp could improve on because they got that tiny gap.
Great question! And honestly I don’t really have an answer. I think ultimately when the groups are so good, the judge has to make a decision on which they think is better based on everything they saw throughout the performances. And scoring them tightly together is just a testament to how great both groups are.
@@funlinerproductions7071 You are correct. One issue I've started thinking of, is 1/2 a point small enough? Maybe DCi should use 1/4 or even an 1/8th of a point. Judges are required to not tie. Thus, are caps being artificially inflated. The TX show this year with BD 2 points over the next 3, I think could be a result of this 1/2 point issue. Now, when I say 1/2 point, I'm meaning per sheet. There are 200 points on the sheet, no decimals. That translates into 20 points or 1/2 of 20 depending on the caption. However, the judges just see 100 per sub-caption. So a 1/2 of point is 1/2 out of the 100. That's why you'll see 9.550 vs. 9.500, which is 95.5 or 95 on the sheet. With 2-4 at that show sharing so much of 2-4 placements, and BD being the most consist of mostly 1st places in sub-captions, did the 2 point spread happen due to math limitations. I wonder.
Not DCI, but still relatable. High school marching band kids get the same feelings about scoring but soooo much worse. Thanks for the front ensemble shoutout. Back when I was in high school, the entire band (including the drumline) essentially thought we were posers and didn't need to exist. Y'know, because we didn't march or do anything physical. Which, to satisfy them, caused us nerdy, anxious introverts to put together an extremely cringe routine of faux marching in on the sideline while the band went on the field...very exposed in front of the finals crowd...single file...just like 8 or so of us... Yes, the program sucked.
I was a bass player in my high school's front ensemble my junior and senior years. We always got flak for not marching, not doing the physical activity the winds did and being inside for band camp, but of course, the drumline loved us. Wasn't until they saw how much we had to act/perform instead of marching and getting 2nd at States in Group 5 Open with best percussion, that we got more respect. The funny part was that 90% of the pit was really in shape compared to our winds, and we actually loved to run with them when we were able. Freshman and sophomore years I was a trombone so it was cool to have experience on both sides of the field
@@Wynorrific I'm so happy that you got a much better experience there than we did. And kudos for having the ironically most ripped kids in the pit! Maybe it helped that your drumline was on your side; I've noticed most band kids tend to look up to them. Banging on things with sticks is cool and fun. And of course, every band classroom in the continental US was showing Drumline and Blast! on repeat every other week it seemed, at least during the 2000s-2010s. At least, it was cool up until the kids figured out they could steal drum kids' sticks and break stuff in the drum closet. Then it wasn't cool anymore, I guess. We had to stash our stick bags in there and keep it under lock and key... Being the front ensemble leader wasn't very fun after the first year + all that garbage. I quit after only 2 years. Probably giving a strange impression here; the school was actually pretty big (3000+). The program had just been driven into the ground for years up to that point. I haven't heard much since, but they claim it's gotten better.
@@OneJazzyBoi I remember when we'd make fun of Drumline all the time lol. Sucks you had to quit after only 2 years, the pit felt like such a huge family to me. And I hear that about being run to the ground. Our music program was awful until we got a new Super Intendent that loved the musical arts. So we got a lot more funding starting my freshman year. Our marching band, indoor drumline and guard made such improvements. In indoor, we went from a standstill my freshman year to us being in MAPS Scholastic A Class and getting I think 9th at finals. Which wasn't great, but it was a step up since the year prior we were in Regional A and got 1st every comp and Scholastic A was the most competitive class. And the marching band went from basically nothing and competing in I don't even know what program to us going to USBands my sophomore year and taking off from there. Was really cool to see it grow considering we were a school of like 800 kids with not much funding
Appreciate the inclusion of SCV ‘18 for examples in this video, hard to see my corps not being represented this summer and it almost feels forgotten sometimes
@@nateiott4346 Yea, that was my age-out show too. It was a hard year for a lot of different reasons, and being overshadowed by the top 4 is definitely a bit disheartening when people talk about 2022. I highly appreciate anyone who enjoyed it as much as we did!
@@luiscobos21 Wow you guys rocked man thanks for putting on such a show! I went to semis and the only shows I'd seen prior were the ones at the season opener in Detroit. You guys were 100% one of if not the most memorable new show I got to experience that day. I was honestly heartbroken when I heard the news that SCV weren't fielding this year because there wasn't a corp I was looking forward to seeing this year more. FWIW, a lot of corps came into the '22 season at their absolute best - I think the return of proper drum corps after years off collectively made it one of the best overall years for DCI in recent history. You should feel absolutely no shame in feeling overshadowed because you guys still matched an awesome program with a great performance
As a dinosaur of a Bluecoat, a NYS music educator, a composer, and a forever fan of drumcorps, regardless of its evolution... I have come to the satisfying conclusion that drumcorps is like "Who's Line Is It Anyway". Ehem... the show 'where everything is made up and the points don't matter'. I sleep great at night, resting in that blissful truth. Regardless, great video and explanation of the technical interplay of subcaptions.
I remember in ‘19 when they restricted field judges to only the front sideline. Initially, the scores were so swayed but over the seasons timing things evened out. Just wonder if they will ever allow the the old way of judges in the bell/ in front of the drums again. Great vid!
This vid def helped me understand dci judging a little bit better, but I primarily compete in DCA which has a slightly different system. I performed in Allentown this past weekend and, primarily from a percussion pov, I’m somewhat confused on how different the judge’s impression of our show was in Allentown compared to what it was in Williamsport. I’m not hating out of bias or anything cuz I know the performance was fire 💁🏾♂️. But just looking at the score sheets and comparing the numbers from the two shows between my corps and our direct competitor, I can really see the subjective side of judging and it’s that side of it that I want to understand more.
Wow! This is literally the most timely RU-vid video ever! (At least for me). I was about to type in "DCI judging captions explained" in the YT search bar, but the algorithm read my mind and thus your video was right here waiting for me as soon as I opened up the app. Thanks so much for this.
My brother and I played with the Kenosha, WI Kingsmen for many years, in the 60's, sadly many great corps are gone, Friends and I from my corps era stopped going to shows years ago. Gone are the Legion & VFW state and national shows as well as the many local corps shows.
I think there's a bit of a disconnect between the judging criteria and the regular mom-and-pop fans who fill the stands at every show. It's really hard to understand if you've never marched in a corps or spent time in music education. What percentage of the audience is that? Half maybe? Hard to say. I've always felt there should be a separate "contest" at every show (except Indy) where a totally untrained panel of judges made up of local community members select what they feel is their favorite performance at their local show. Get 5 people to watch from the stands and pick their winner based on whatever criteria they wanted. And award a "Mayor's Cup" at the end of the night. The winner could be ANY corps that performed. It would be a total wild card. But because it's totally unpredictable, every corps would be in contention. OK, so who wants to organize that? Any volunteers? I'm busy, otherwise I'd do it.
@@Z6D4C4 But that just becomes a stuff-the-ballot-box sort of thing. I'm proposing a local panel made up of what are essentially outsiders who are seeing the activity for the first time. Then you'd see a completely different set of criteria. It would be a total wild card. And not just a contest of who can get the most friends to vote for their corps.
I think audience impression and the actual intention for GE are very different. It technically should be possible to make a soulless show that still wins, because someone's personal connection to a show is, in my opinion, more of a bias than an assessment. Whichever show moves me the most is so inconsistent. My hope is that GE can usually function as an extension of music/visual scores, and there shouldn't be a big inconsistency between who wins one or the other. Just like how Carolina Crown 2013 got both perfect brass and perfect music general effect - if music general effect didn't exist, they would have been dragged down more (unfairly in my opinion) by their percussion score
Audiences aren’t critics. It would be like assuming the best movie of the year is always the one that does the best at the box office. GE is about artistry, intent and creativity in a very considered way that someone who just likes when the drums go boom might not be engaged with
I will say judges can certainly fall prey to assumption of expertise in relation to groups in any level of activity. This could guide their judgement in a toss up scenario and award one group over another with a tenth. Like: “Hey crown is supposed to be amazing brass”, “Avon is supposed to be great at visual”, “Texas marching band music analysis quality”. Not even saying it’s a negative but a truth I think that is out there. Another way to say this. “We are really good at X but this other group has been known for skill X. We need to be ten times better so there’s no doubt.”
Though your explanation of the captions and they’re role in being judged is fantastic, there’s still some things that are very….eyebrow raising. I taught two world class corps in the last decade. Both finalists, one champion. There were predictable outcomes when looking at who was on a panel. We didn’t even have to perform and certain judges would always have us behind certain corps every show. We made a game out of how big the gap would be. Going into critique post show and speaking to a judge that is us 0.1 below in a caption with a better run when the show the night before had us 0.4 up in the same head to match only to be told “it’s just a tenth” is….ya. Mind you this happened at BOTH world class finalist corps I taught. (2013 and 2016)
That is frustrating. Judges do have tendencies, they are only human. However, knowing those tendencies and being aware of them, makes people better judges. Bad judges don't get asked back. There are performance reviews and several evaluations performed through out the year. But yes, you can notice trends. There is also a feedback process of corps to the caption heads.
Spreading the scoring between multiple judges creates a more objective score. This is done with almost any activity on the planet that requires subjective judgement. Obviously the individual scores are subjective.
Great video y’all! This is an excellent intro to the judging system that many think is “rigged”. I would also like to add that color guard commentary is not only limited to the color guard judge/caption. Visual proficiency and visual analysis judges often comment on the guards execution, composition, and overall design. Color guard is all visual!
@@funlinerproductions7071 And the CG caption includes staging of the guard. Yes, downstairs judges are to balance the evaluation/verbiage of the members as a percentage of them on the field. Drum Corps have mostly horns, then guard, then battery. But apply this to bands and sometimes the percentages are very interesting to evaluate. Think of some groups with no battery. Others with more guard than horns, or a unit with 1 or 2 guard members. Thus, vocabulary of (all) 'individuals', includes the layered responsibilities of color guard, horns, and battery.
There should be more than 1 brass judge and more than 1 percussion judge. There are simply WAY too many people playing on that field to make an honest and COMPLETE examination of those groups. especially the brass. You can't tell me that 1 judge can accurately, efficiently, and completely adjudicate more than 80 people in the time given down to the thousandth of a point. I call bulshido. The GE scoring is weighted too heavily on "artistic" as opposed to "engaging". You should not need a degree in music education to "get" a show. I say this as someone who DOES have a degree in music education. Some of these show "titles" and "concepts" have become so completely self serving it's a joke. Watching the show and trying to make the connection I'm told is being made is many times laughable. Not that the performance isn't outstanding, just that what I'm being told is being represented isn't connecting with the actual experience. Standing on the outside watching the current DCI aristocracy sniffing their own farts and calling it art, while the peasants just smell poo gas. As part of the bourgeoisie, I'm pretty sure most people don't care what the concept is as long as it's entertaining and performed well. I shouldn't NEED to have it explained to understand. I shouldn't be sitting in the stands wondering just WTF am I watching. It's perfomed well, but it's kinda boring and I don't get the point of the show. If that's what's happening, then the show designer did something REALLY wrong. The guy who marched in 1973 should be able to still enjoy this activity without being sidelined and looked down on as an out of touch boomer.
I’ve always wondered why content sub-scores rise throughout the season. Achievement scores rising makes sense but why content? Are shows really that different by the end of the year to justify over a point gained in content sub-scores?
From my personal experience at BD, the show is constantly changing. We usually don’t even learn the real ending to the show until the last housing site before finals week.
Derived achievement. (What + How)/2 = DA. While some staffs argue that a box 5 show is a box 5 show from day 1, the issue is readability. You can't credit what you can't see and maybe better stated, can't credit it enough until is cleaner. What you're really watching is how much higher the what is from the how through out the season. Most units have a higher 'what' until near the end, where the 'what' can out pace the 'how', due to clarity. This is where units can 'peak' too soon, if their vocabulary isn't strong enough and the performers out perform it too early in the season. Verses and over written book (usually other activities) where the performers may never fully be able to achieve the required tasks.
Typically it is easier to tell what exactly performers have to do when they play it better, and the more clear you can tell what something is, the more you can realize just how demanding it is. Obviously if you hear lots of notes jammed together it's difficult, but if you a Corp plays clean you could tell between a group that chooses to slur or double tongue it. Or maybe sometimes you can see how other individual parts intertwine or intersect in ways that may be mentally challenging. Don't know if my explanation made sense, but typically better execution allows for judges to see what's there to be played better.
Spirit of Atlanta Contra, 1983-1986. I had the privilege of sitting in on a number of Critiques. I also had the privige of seeing Freddy Martin get in the face of those judges, and tell them how full of shit they were.
As a percussionist, I would actually go one step further when it comes to the importance of the pit as presented in this video and on the score sheets. Because of the recent change to the ability of a judge to go on the field, I think the front ensemble is actually the MORE important section when it comes to the percussion score. Drill design still favors having the drumline behind the brass for most of the show besides the features, and for good reason. It keeps the drum sound underneath the brass sound, which is probably exactly where it should be. But with this recent change in adjudication, judges no longer have the ability to stand directly in front of the drumline for the majority of the show. They are now listening to the pit much more than they used to, giving them a larger contribution to the percussion score. I think percussion is an interesting caption, too, because it contains two quite disparate sections both lumped into one score. While it is all percussion, I feel that people tend to fall into either the drumline camp or the front ensemble camp, and watch mostly one or the other. I know that I fall into the drumline camp, and while I do listen to and appreciate the pit, I am more often watching lot videos of the battery, and focus my attention on them more often when watching shows live. I would agree with your idea of having one judge for each, and I think it makes a lot of sense considering the different goals and approaches each section has. I don't know how much more we would really get out of having two judges, though, with judges being unable to go out on the field. I do agree, with the complexity of visual design now, that judges should no longer be allowed on the field, so I'm not sure of the best solution to this problem. For now, I'm fine with the front ensemble having a larger share of the percussion judges score. Drumlines have had the majority share for so long, it's only fair that the pit be given that emphasis for a while. Maybe it'll help lead people towards watching more front ensemble lot videos, and making them a more important factor in their percussion analysis, and hopefully we can judge percussion sections more holistically instead of the two being discrete portions of the percussion score.
Agreed, it should be two judges, one for the pit and one for the drum line, If I understand your point correctly. Each, very complex, most notably amongst the more advanced and technical programs. I don't see how they can have accurate judging without two judges in these categories.
To be honest i really like the subjective part of the score. I feel that a lot of people want a perfectly objective system. But isn’t subjectivity kind of the point, if you asked everyone In the activity what the point of it all is they’d all tell you that it’s to play and preform a great show. It’s not about left right left right left halt play, you want your show to mean something and the GE aspect takes into account the show part of the show
When you say some captions are " mostly objective" do the judges use a rubric or a list of criteria with numbers assigned? Have you noticed that corps from year to year receive scores for their first performance of the year that are all very similar? hypothetical example: ABC corps scores 68.5 +/- a point year after year on that first show. Finally, do you think scores would look different if judges had no idea what a corps scores on the previous show?
It almost seems like music holds even less weight then that with the lack of judges compared to GE. How can one person judge some of these areas? This also makes me wonder how some can be judged so clean with limited judges. I would enjoy seeing change to the scoring and how they select judges. Either way thank you for your videos and going over this!
I would have loved for you to touch how scores are tallied up throughout the season. Like is that night show based off of an average? Or like how did they know to use that particular number to say that accurately assesses that's killed they saw
Regional line ups are based on scores through the season. Not sure of the specifics. But each show is an open contest and judges are to judge in the moment, what is front of them. No history of Unit A doing better than unit B.
I marched in 2001 and 2002...so awhile ago, but not forever ago. My biggest complaint about judging now is that the judges are not on the field anymore. Yes, there have been some run-ins and yes it's MUCH more intimidating for the performer...but I also think it's necessary, specifically for drumline judging. When I watch a corps from the front, so often the drums get drowned out by the horns. While this is part of what makes the activity awesome, there's no way that judge is getting a good read on the nuance from the drumline during this time. I really struggle with the assertion that they're actually getting really solid reads from the sideline. This is a "love to hate" topic because everyone has strong opinions about it and I think that's OK.
Excellent scoring breakdown, definitely something I wish I had had back in high school band, back when whoever got second always claimed it was rigged. It is interesting to see that General Effect makes up 40% of the score, with Visual and Music splitting the remaining 60%. I wonder if such prioritization of originality and creativity (as well as the execution of course) is what keeps pushing corps to do things never done before and stay ahead of the curve in this continued revolution of change in the activity. Not to mention that GE must be getting more and more difficult to judge with the increasing variety of shows - it must be like comparing apples and oranges. I'm not the one to judge whether this is good or bad, but it's cool to see how and maybe why things are changing
Agree. Some systems are 50/50 visual to music, some are 40/60 visual to music, most have a heavy emphasis of GE. The sum is greater than the parts for GE. So while many people look at the 'parts'. As mentioned, GE includes other opportunities for groups to create that may or may not be of 'demand' for one group to another. There have been several examples of some AMAZING shows, that are relatively thin. I feel the captions certainly allow for inconsistencies of strengths of groups. The balanced groups are move consistent across the captions and therefore obtain greater overall scores.
You're both right and wrong about percussion. You're correct that they need two judges again. Not pit & battery, but performance and ensemble percussion. The front ensemble isn't neglected as you allege, but rather the field battery is neglected mainly because they have leashed the judge to the sidelines rather than letting them get up close and personal to evaluate the technique and listen for difficulty, cleanliness, and balance.
I said the front ensemble is neglected in the conversation when it comes to the percussion score by fans. Not by judges. I just said it would be nice to have two percussion judges.
No I meant objective! Because it mostly has to do with execution which is relatively a more objective thing to judge than something like general effect!
The DCI system is similar in spirit, to the old figure skating and gymnastics system. Once gymnastics and figure skating added more weight to demand and execution the entire scope of both sports changed.
No matter what these judges say, It seems pretty obvious they favor the Blue Devils every year with higher GE scores. Boston and the Bluecoats clearly got the crowd more excited and involved, but BD keeps getting the higher GE score.
This is because of the judging criteria for the General Effect caption. If the judging criteria was “who gets the crowd more excited and involved” then you’d have a point. But that’s not the criteria. So instead of saying “the judges obviously favor the blue devils” you should say “according to the criteria for general effect, the judges seem to think that the blue devils execute at a higher level”
so do they just… give points as to what feels right. As in there isn’t an exact science to it? My assumption was it would be more like, gymnastics or something where you get deducted for specific things consistently. I guess this kind of makes more sense with such a large group, but there are so many things to consider when you are a judge then.
The other thing you have to consider is that gymnastics is a “white list only criteria” performers can only things off an exact list with exact perimeters all deviations are deductions. There are no set skills for dci nor perfect examples to be used as reference which means that we can’t really do that kind of system. Now to be clear they USED TO do that it was called the “tick system” but the issue with that is a mistake on an easy skill was worth the same as a mistake on a hard skill which doesn’t incentivize much in the way of challenge or demand
❤❤❤❤💙💙💙💙💙 The fact that a former BD Drum Major Alumni know more about judging than the average Corps Director, Designer or Instructor says a lot about that program. They know the sheets....
The Bluecoats Brass Podcast and Aged Out Podcast have more resources on brass and percussion judging respectively for people who to learn even more about the judging system.
I think judges absolutely take front ensembles into effect. Part of the reason cavies can beat everyone. When the judge samples the Drumline. They are playing stuff in that moment and cool off while not the focus but when the judge isn’t sampling, the Drumline, his attention is basically to the front ensemble, which cavies, is on fire.
Man this video reminds me of my "Classic vs. Modern Era" video essay i made about a year and a half ago. Trying to be as in depth as possible with my explanations. And as objective as possible in my analysis of the "debate." I think that video turned out well, and its currently my Magnum Opus. And that leads me to a question, do you guys have a video on this channel that you personally feel is your best video? I'd love to hear your guys' opinions on that!
This goes for all captions but it isn’t a tick system it’s an achievement system. It’s not you start from a perfect score and lose some with each drop but the opposite you start from zero and each catch(skill really) gets you closer to a perfect score. A drop on the 100th doesn’t fully diminish the 99 previous catches.
I’d love to hear your take on the scoring system of BOA (Highschool band) and how you think it compares to DCI’s system or if you think they are pretty much the same thing.
Very similar. Most judges work year round. Each circuit has their own rules and emphasis on the sheets. However, overall, BOA, DCI, WGI, and most local circuits, have boxes with descriptions, values of each caption to focus on, and all talk about the value of the tenth and neighborhoods.
I really don't understand about the front ensemble and it really has become a sticking point with me a a few others who just don't understand what is going on. Why can the front ensemble have non percussion instruments such as pianos and guitars that have Nothing to do with (Drums) if they feel the need to add stringed instruments then why not march a sax or flute etc. instead of adding static instruments that have nothing to do with a marching band. It's not that I really want Woodwinds in the DCI but neither do I want Stringed instruments in DCI. Isn't it called Drum and Bugle Corp. Intl. and if it is not then say so but to continue to tout DCI and say that they are THE Standard of marching so much so that bands around the country are dedicated to watching them Band Directors for Marching Bands around the country make it available for them to come into their schools and do workshops on playing and marching to dedicated students of marching. These kids see DCI players as the top echelon of marching and woodwind instruments feel left out because (friends don't let friends march woodwind) but hey if you play guitar or piano come join and you can stand in the front and look pretty while they march behind you ... ok. Dosn't make sense to me except that directors of these bands want to take advantage of music that they normally wouldn't use which makes lesser bands with less capital be further down the line of judging. Please help me make sense of this for the benefit of those poor woodwinds that will only get to march if they go colorguard which makes them lose precious time with their instrument during the summer.
Woodwinds are incredibly hard to hear above brass instruments, and amplifying them well on the field is difficult, especially if any other instruments are playing with them. This takes away from the total volume of sound from the ensemble. This is why they have a home in the front ensemble, where we can play with unique instrumentation without that compromise.
@@Z6D4C4 Problem with that is high schools march woodwind groups larger than the overall brass in the overall. I am not sure you notice the makeup of high school bands but they are usually 1/2 woodwind 1/4 brass 1/4 drums. Getting kids that way maybe 100 lbs to play a tuba, trombone or melophone is very hard. Most kids that are playing drums only want to hold snares then maybe 3 or 4 kids that will play bass but that's it. Yes I am talking a less that 100 piece band but that is the usual makeup of most bands in my area.
@@VAngel876 I don't understand why DCI would be concerned with high school marching band instrumentation, or what woodwind players decide to do over the summer. There's plenty things a woodwind player can do that are far more relevant to their instrument than a DCI tour.
@@Z6D4C4 That I guess is the problem. Yes woodwinds do have more options, like orchestras, competitions, working towards teaching. I guess that is what I will tell my booster club members. We don't need to worry about DCI they don't offer value to half of our band members.
@@VAngel876 I completely agree that high school bands programs shouldn't be thinking about DCI. They are different activities that appeal to different literature and design choices.
Very little, but if groups are smart, keep the meat of the show up front. I miss being on the field, but understand why, since it is a safety issue for sure.
This was a super cool video to watch! I found this very interesting because I have been somewhat confused on a lot of it despite how much I look at the scores.
I think we should select judges in a raffle before every show since clearly the average fan knows better than the judging panel who all have decades of experience
Very good video! You made a small mistake though when saying that colorguard is comparible to the visial performance... actually it's more a combination of performance and analysis (where I would say it's even more analysis than performance, that's why this judge is in the stands as well). So that means the colorguard judge also looks at drill, form responsibilities, staging choices, integration, texture changes etc. which is often overlooked. Also for a next video it would be nice to explore the concept of a Point of Comparison (POC). Every caption is composed of several POC's in the composition and achievement (called the 'sheets'), which entails all the different aspects the judge looks at. Even General Effect has them (variety of effect, production value/concept, mood etc.) A judge should only compare the things that are in a POC, nothing more nothing less. Also all POC's in the caption need to be judged in the same ammount, i.e. they need to be balanced. This makes it more objective show to show, because it prevents judges to 'interpret' the caption their way, or put specific emphasis on a certain object. This way every brass judge will judge the same aspects during the season.
I marched from 1969 to 1973 . Even back at that time period there were complaints about scores . I dig DCI . The shows are awesome. I think that there should be more judges. A fellow snare drummer became a DCI judge on the field . He narrowly escaped being run over by the Caddets snare section back in the day .lol
Yes, they are always looking for more judges, every circuit is! Please, reach out to your local circuit and get involved. I almost find it odd that more instructors don't judge. That's why I got started in judging, to become a better instructor. 30 years later, still involved.
@@mikeoneill7174 Is it that easy? I'll be an instructor starting in 2024 (I have things going on this year) and while I have more than enough experience to coach high school kids, I'd love to learn more about the technical side of the arts. Probably not gonna pursue it until I have a solid foothold in the teaching side in a few years but I'd love to know more about it.
The appreciation is also linked to who are the staff on that section. Depending on who is these instructors, your score starts higher or not before the first move is even done.
You are just stating this with zero actual evidence to base this on. Like are you just assuming this based on what you think? In fact, I would argue judges make an effort to not let the staff or history of a corps influence their evaluation. I just don’t know how people can make these statements about the intentions inside judges minds with such confidence.
Not true. I've seen plenty of 'great' instructors work with groups that couldn't handle what they wrote. Didn't score well. And I've seen many 'unknowns' be very successful. The confusion may be masked by limited top end staffs and where those talented people work at, verses lower end groups that top staffs don't stay at very long as they cut their teeth to move up the ranks.
Paul rennick is writing for troopers drumline this year. Oh wait they aren't winning Drums at most of their shows. So much for judging based on instructors.
Great breakdown and analysis. While BD still may pull it out, you've got 3 others corps right on the doorstep. In 2015 after prelims, Crown was a full point up on 2nd place and BD was actually 4th. In the semis, Crown had a 0.1 point lead. In finals, BD was able to overtake them and win the championship. Was Crown robbed? Some may argue they were, but BD kept grinding, cleaning, perfecting and it paid off. Here's hoping all the corps leave it all out on the field and hopefully your last run was your best.
In 2015 BD was technically 2nd in prelims. They had .5 deducted from their score for a penalty which is what dropped them to 4th. And it was very back and forth between those two late in the season. at the last show that BD and crown performed at together before finals week, BD actually won. Crown definitely had the momentum though and had the show design to win (hence why they won GE all three finals nights) but it’s like they crapped the bed actually executing said show during their finals run. They weren’t robbed, they gave it away.
GE is really tough especially this part of the year because how good all the top corps have become. Everyone’s show is so refined and entertaining that is tough to split hairs between them. But whoever those judges are on finals night for GE will have a lot to do with who ends up winning the whole thing.
I'm of the opinion that the dci judging system has evolved into one of the most scrutinized, complex, and meticulous methods for assessment that exist in any competitive genre, including olympic competition. The judging standards have continually evolved from old veterans walking around with tick sheets on clipboards to much more sophisticated methods of recording scores and feedback. Judges are tasked to justify their scores - justify their "objective" opinion by matching their scores to appropriate criterion reference scale language. This langusge should be reflected in recorded verbal comments they give during the actual performance. The Criterion Reference Scale is a description of the language for each graduated range level of performance and design proficiency. This includes execution demands and excellance that then corelates to the range of scores for each category on the judging sheets. The language of each range is printed on the backs of the actual scoring sheets to remind that the written and verbal comments should consistently match the score range they determine for the performance. Periodically judges are expected to meet right after predetermined competitions throughout the season to meet with the corps' instructional and design staffs to discuss, educate, and offer advice for improvement, by elucidating comments or score discrepencies with which corps staff may have concerns. Tbey started using this Criterion Refetence Scale approach around 1982 when I became an instructor right after aging out of drum corps., but I'm not sure if ghey call it that anymore.
