Let's REWORK the Ice-Type in Pokémon, and here's how (2 of 3) 

I think the rock weakness should stay. Part of Ice's identity is that it is fragile, but powerful, by hitting super effectively the "strongest" type in Dragon, and neutrally many other targets. Of course, 9 gens later, the types are all much more equal now, so the weaknesses really do pile up for ice, and I think all the resistances you proposed are good, but that's because they still keep it being a niche type with some specific advantages. Resisting earthquake is super useful, and a good opportunity to switch in, and that alone massively improves its usefulness. But rock neutrality is harder to justify: you don't need to talk about salt, or glaciers, or whatever, just throw a rock at an ice sheet and see what happens. The real problem with ice being weak to rock is Stealth Rock, but that's because the move is too busted. They should have made it electric type or something like that, where it doesn't hit many things super effectively, instead of using the type with bad resistances and bad moves but great type effectiveness Anyways great video!! Always love to see people analysing the pokemon mechanics, and trying some good ol' game design on it :p

This was my thought too, but more practically, if you throw a rock hard enough at an ice cube, that ice cube will break.

I liked you changes and i too get to the more resistences to balace ice, in my mind my diference was that instead of resist eletric i made it resist poison and on the same time i made poison be super effect on water. The poison would act more slow because of the cold or someting like that.

Regarding Ice's conductivity, I said something incorrect for the sake of brevity. I said something like "cold things are less conductive" which is inaccurate. Conductives like metals are the opposite, they are more conductive when cool. Semiconductors and insulators are what I was talking about. I won't be oversimplifying to the level I did in the future, as I've misrepresented the logic that Ice conducts worse than Water because of matter state and temperature. Thank you for your understanding. TL;DR: Yes, super conductors are chilled for better conductivity, BUT Ice is not a superconductor. You would have to ADD heat to make Ice more conductive compared to Water. atlas-scientific.com/blog/why-does-conductivity-increase-with-temperature-in-semiconductors/#:~:text=Electrical%20conductivity%20increases%20in%20semiconductors,%2C%20thus%2C%20increasing%20the%20conductivity. pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/1957/tf/tf9575300687

My Main reason against the rock argument is that rock type isnt that great aswell, so the given bone isnt enough imo

Yea the more i think about it, the more I like frostbite over freezing. Freezing something is just too broken and Sleep already exists that prevents pokemon from moving for a couple turns so frostbite i think just works better.

@@supersaiyaneevee1573 I don't think anyone likes freeze too.

@@supersaiyaneevee1573 Yea I didn’t like Legends as a game at all but frostbite is so much better then freeze. At least with something like sleep which also prevents u from moving it has a way to get around that in sleep talk (they do need to buff sleep talk so it can’t get rest tho cause that’s just annoying unless they already did that idk). And with sleep you’ll guaranteed to wake up after 2-3 turns (2 with rest). Freeze could literally last forever which is so stupid. Yes theirs no way to guarantee freeze something like with sleep but getting frozen is just so annoyingly stressful especially after a few turns of it and even worse if it’s your heal bell mon. I remember when I was little and first getting frozen and was so confused on what it was and at the time I guess I didn’t think of using an item to unthaw (if I even had one). Instead I just kept trying to attack and if my Pokémon got low I healed it with a potion. After like 10 turns I immediately exited the game and reset the battle (I saved right before the battle). And was like if that crap happens again I’m done playing this. Luckily it didn’t happen again.

I like Frozen thematically. Bc it sounds more cool to be frozen then have a cold from a Frostbite. But mechanically Frostbite would defenetly be superior and would be very appreciated to both give Ice types another neace and make another counter to sp attacker witch don't have as many counter as Physical Attackers have. It should have been the sp burn long time ago. But if thet want to make a inbetween with the 2. They should make it like a sp burn without the damage. So if you have Frostbite you have like a 20/30% to be frozen. So it isent a complete replica of burn but special. It would make it different from burn and not completely ditching its previous effect. It just wouldn't take damage but have its sp attack dropped by 50% and have a 20/30% to Freeze every turn. That's just a idé though. Having it as a special burn works fine with me. It would also make Frostlass more viable with Willow wisp and Frostbite. Will be a fun menace. I love Frostlass. Hopefully Frostbite will be implemented eventually. As I really enjoyed it in Legends Arceus and it would be a welcoming change to the Ice types😄

@Liam Skarhed so kinda mixing burn and paralysis together? But with a Sp Atk drop rather than a Phys Atk or Speed drop. And there being a 1/3 chance to be completely frozen like being paralyzed does. (Idr the fully paralyzed chances, 1/3 just as an example). I honestly think that would work REALLY well! My only gripe is that it kinda makes paralysis feel less special but just a small little nitpick.

Actually, a commenter said something similar so I made a different video about Scald acting like Freeze-Dry.

I agree but the problem is that freeze dry should have the condition to either burn or (me personally I think being frozen for an unpredictable amount of time even after switch in is stupid BUT…) frozen (like rest for 1-2 turns) The reason i say that is scald still to this day has no punish and is easily the most spammable move next to a choice specs Boomburst exploud. Even on resist getting a burn off on anything that either doenst have an ability status-negate or set up safeguard, you aren’t safe from spam

​@@CammyMeeleTea it would be a good change now that scald is an exclusive move to volcanian

I think the resist each other should be ice/ground. In therms os physics, ground it good to retain heat from nature ( thata why's some animals live grounded in winter, and ground don't melt ice) and ABSOLUTELY ICE SHOULD damage eletric because bad conduct,

I like the idea of these two moves being designed specifically to turn the tables on each other

Not only that, but Final Fantasy treats ice and water as seperate elements as well!

@@OG-Cyan I was actually going to comment this as well lol.

I really like that idea a lot. I've always thought the Fairy and Bug match up was so dumb. Bug's immunity to confusion would be so cool because Bugs can't get disoriented easily. Think of flies and their hyper perception. Mountaineer is a cool ability, it's like that Create-A-Pokemon. I think it's called Syclant? It's an Ice/Bug type.

@@CammyMeeleTeaYeah, they took that exact ability and put it into the game on an Ice/Flying type called Colbird. Colbird has high HP, Def SpA and Spe with low Atk and SpD. It has good boosting options and utility. I hear they might be buffing Mountaineer to block Rock moves even after switching in so Colbird would be immune to the EdgeQuake combo. Paw Pads belongs to Tempdua, Alolan Ninetales and a new Ice-Type Lycanroc form. Tempdua is an Ice/Fire type that’s an absolutely insane offensive threat with base 137 speed and access to Triple Axel, Flare Blitz and Extreme Speed and more

@@CammyMeeleTea bugs confuse super easily, all you need as a light and they freak out

Good rework I guess, but I'm fine with water resisting ice. People always want ice to be good against water, but it really shouldn't. Maybe it should be neutral, nothing less. Water in liquid form is warmer than ice. Ice types could also suck defensively because it's molecules expanded, causing it to be a bigger target and a weaker one.

@@zacmayes2802 In Cl/So, Water and Ice resist each other

How does Magma Storm work?

⁠@@leebulger7112it's like fire spin on steroids, signature move for Heatran

@@andrewzorpas234 I heard of the move but I wasn't sure how it worked.

It's just fire spin with the strength and accuracy of iron tail

Ice should resist Ground to balance Ice's defensiveness and Ground's offenses

Check my video on scald.

If they actually implemented my changes, I'd be cool with chip, but given how in the real game you need so much non-Ice support, I'm glad the chip is gone.

I think snow is a phenomenal change purely because you can still use ice types without having to nerf other pokemon. Sand still gets variety from rock ground and steel types, but ice is the only type to not take hail chip so if you have any non ice type pokemon your just making them worse on your hail team with only one set of goggles to go around

i never saw hail as useful and it only ever seemed to discourage from using non-ice-types on your team. this way, snow gives ice types a benefit while not hurting its teammates

The problem with hail its very difficult to build a team around it. Unlike sandstorm where you can justify making a team of mostly ground, rock, and steel types, nobody is going to build a team of ice types to make use of it. It ends up being more of a burden than a benefit.

I don't understand since sandstorm deals chip damage while ALSO boosting Rock Type's spdef. Maybe because Hail was too niche (only Ice types resist it compared to Rock, Steel and Ground)?

Poison also has only 2 weaknesses, to psychic (not a common offensive threat anymore) and ground. It also has one of the best status for a bulky pokemon, with toxic.

I think a good rework is to not think of Ice like frozen water type, but more the concept of cold in general. With that rework in mind, a lot can change. Cold could sometimes be supereffective against fire types if you used moves like Blizzard, it would definitely be super effective against Bug, neutral to Water, resistant against electricity. The list goes on.

69th like

Making Ice resist electric makes opposite sense if you look at the physics.

Heck Final fantasy does the same, Ice and Water pretty often end up being completely different

I don't play that game at all, I asked my friend who plays the game and he failed me completely, lol.

@@Castersvarog Yeah, I was on the Final Fantasy wiki and some games it's different elements and some games it's the same. Like Ice Storm in on game does Water and Ice damage. In some games, the party can only use Ice element moves, but enemies get water element moves.

@@CammyMeeleTea Bruh how did he do you like that, one of the first things you get introduced is the basic 4 elements

@@kaikysouza9861 I wasn't even gonna bring up Genshin because I didn't play it past Amber.

Though at least Grass is one of the three types resisting or being immune to Ground moves (the others being Bug and Flying, which are weak to the Rock coverage they often carry)

Yea, I thought the same thing. The video could have ended at the electric resistance, and then maybe something else as an additional suggestion, but by the end of the video it kinda felt like something that would overhaul the whole meta.

So many Gen 1 Rock types are part Ground, it's really easy to think Rock resists Electricity. Heavens forbid you grew up watching the anime like me. I was lied to. Agility isn't a Psychic type Quick Attack.

@@CammyMeeleTea yeah, I was surprised when I got older and realized Electricity was actually neutral to it. Becoming resistant really fits a ton of Rock Types thematically and competitively.

​@@CammyMeeleTeaPikachu go for the horn!

​@@leebulger7112 Good ol' ring target Rhydon. Absolute staple of the Gen 1 Meta...

@@CammyMeeleTea A psychic type priority attacking move does actually go kinda hard tho

Frosmoth subscribed.

I think But should resist Psychic and Dark.

@@leebulger7112 Maybe not Psychic, but I definetely agree it should resist Dark.

One thing I'd like them to do is make Bug neutral to Ghost or at least make one Bug type move that is super effective againt Ghost types. There are a lot of concepts mixed in the Ghost type in Pokemon, most of them being related to spirit possession on objects/spirit powers on living creatures, but there are also those Pokemon that are related to a dead/decaying corpse and who ir our world are excellent at decomposing organic matter? Exactly, bugs. So to avoid having some extremely specific interaction like Bug doing super effective damage against say Houndstone (which is one of said dead/decaying corpse mons I mentioned) or still doing resisted damage against something like a Mismagius (a more traditional Ghost type), I think it should be neutral to all or keep the Ghost resistance with at least one specific Bug move that is super effective against it, like there already is with Freeze-Dry and Water types or most recently Salt Cure's damage over time against Water and Steel types.

@@tezminator I said Psychic because Types on average are resisted by 4 other Types and just think there is a opening.

I was coming to say this as well! On top of this, Cryo and Hydro have different reactions with different properties (Superconduct and Melt vs Electro-Charged and Vaporize), have a reaction between each other (Frozen), and Hydro even reacts with an element that Cryo doesn't (having Bloom with Dendro).

@@aeiouna Yeah - I think it works because Cryo isn't necessarily an ice equivalent, but a cold equivalent (at least in reactions if not moves), it's very cool

Have you seen a Martial Artist do it?

well thats why rock resists normal

I think a guaranteed 3 turns, but with more counter-play could work. Maybe make the Magmarizer cure Freeze at the end of each turn when held, and do the same with the Electirizer and Sleep. This means that you can basically turn a Freeze and Sleep into Flinches at the cost of your item. Maybe buff a few abilities the same way (Flame Body is end of turn, Thick Fat, Ice Body, Slush Rush, and Snow Cloak are end of next turn, I'm sure there's a few others that could work too). Also just distribute some more thawing moves and add a couple that thaw the target but gain 20% extra damage (maybe just add that to some fighting moves or something) (And may as well just make the Protector act as a P. Def Assault Vest while wear buffing some evolution items.)

Legends Arceus changed Freeze to Frostbite which acts like a Burn and reduces the afflicted Pokemon's Special Attack. Really wish they had that in Scarlet/Violet.

​@@EinSilverRosethat it's not changing it, is removing it outright. Personally i'd just do what most sane games do and have contact moves fo extra damage and remove it.

That's a good point. I've seen people throw around the idea of Ice and Fire interactions. In Pokémon, Fire is both heat and literal Fire (sometimes magma even though it's molten rock). Water smothers Fire, but not necessarily heat. Ice can smother heat, but not necessarily the Fire. It could really go either way. It's funny how Fire has so many resistances.

its also funny when u actually read cryowhopper flower desc n find out the "mist" it sprays isnt actually mist but pure leyline particles lol . I think ice is more of a cold/ low temp type then actual type.Kinda like in re zero where emilia has fire affinity but is named ice witch bcuz she manipulates temp off air around her to create ice. Compared to genshin where fire characters either use fire themself or make stuff out off it like pheonix , chains , shields etc

I'm glad, that's exactly what I was going for. My balance philosophy is similar for other games too. I want every character to at least have 1 thing it can do.

@@CammyMeeleTea One thing to note is out of the many monster collectors I have played, Yo-Kai Watch is the only other game I know of that separates Water and Ice but the elemental matchup system is super streamlined so there are a HUGE number of Ice monsters that are viable in the competitive format.

Ice and water are separate elements in genshin, small nitpick sorry

​@@nightcorelucario2218 As well as it's on FF, Shiva and Leviathan anyone?

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Yeah, there's a lot of interesting double resists!

The ideal Kyogre counter :)

The idea behind Ice and Water resisting each other is like, putting ice in water just ends up with more water, and putting water on top of ice will just end up with more ice

The point behind water and ice mutually resisting each other is that neither water nor ice automatically beats out the other. Which one wins depends on quantity. Dumping some ice cubes into a lake will melt the ice cubes, but pour a cup of water onto a glacier will freeze the water. We can assume that the pokemon itself counts as "more quantity" than the attack, so using an ice move on a water type is equivalent to the former but using a water move on an ice type is equivalent to the latter.

You gotta get to the Water section where I explain this scenario exactly.

Thanks. Wanted to make them viable, not broken. Amd boy have they still got a lot of weaknesses.

Yes, this is exactly it! I definitely got less accurate the shorter and shorter I tried to make that section. 🤣 But also, thank you for bringing up the snow example, I can't believe I forgot to bring up snow for Electricity like I did for Ground. Thank you truly, it really does help!

It's not at all rude. Grass has offensive and defensive issues. Bug has offensive issues. And Rock has defensive issues. The series was first designed mostly with single player and trading in mind. Rocks were the early game tanky enemies that were meant to be difficult until you got "magic" like in other RPGs, but they've been a defensive joke since Steel existed. Bug was the early game power house "class" and now it can't hit anything. Grass was also an early game and specialist class, but also can't hit stuff and is weak to a lot. When you look at how old Pokémon is, and how things were designed compared to other RPGs, you'll see the similarity. They've gradually started designing a lot of Pokémon much more differently than how they acted in the early games, and so a lot of these typing roles have become obsolete, especially if it limits their Pokémon design. I haven't gotten to Grass yet. But off the top of my head there are a few ways I'd change Grass. It's hard to justify taking away weaknesses or hitting more things because it's one of those types that conceptually loses to so much. Of the weaknesses you can take away, you nerf bad types. So it's one of those types you have to rearrange at the same time as other types. There is opportunity for Grass to resist Fairy, (part of why I didn't want to give the Fairy resist to Ice). Taking the Fairy's resistance to Bug and turning that into Bug resisting Fairy. Or even some wild experiments like Poison and Grass being neutral because of all the Poison plants. Poison being super effective on Flyin or Water because of pollution, and other tests. Absolutely, keep testing out stuff in mods! I have 0 ability to mod without a guide, so I'm pleased that you were able to test it out. It doesnt bother me to be wrong, or need to keep working on an idea. It's fun to try things until it works. That's how it works in my real job. I'm an IT Director (to put it simply to avoid doxxing myself) and part of that is Engineering solutions for my organization. They'll come to me with a problem, a goal, or even advice and then I see what kinds of programs or policies we can add to adjust things. Sometimes I look at systems they work with, try to improve them, and some changes they totally hate, so I improve it again. I don't have a degree or any certifications by the way. I got into IT because i was proposing solutions to a system they had that could be more efficient and consistent. The IT there liked my ideas and plans. I switched departments and shot my way up in just 3 years because I'm willing to try, learn, and try again so fast, that it doesn't matter how much I failed. So the cycle of ideation and implementation is supposed to be like this. It's nice to get it right first try, but it's not always that clean. That freedom to propose something and fail also extends to commenters on this channel. Sometimes people have the seed of a good idea, and just don't know what to do with it. Feedback, especially raw testing like that, is completely welcome. I'm actually learning to code in my free time because I ultimately want to be able to implement changes/mods to other games, or even help work on a game. Keep up what you're doing too. That's a great skill and the world really needs more programmers. Even if you're just into modding, there's tons of RU-vidrs and Streamers who just want someone else to implement the silly mods they come up with. Thanks again though, I now know what else to consider if I eventually get to a Grass rework. And that really helps because my Stealth Rock video is off schedule because of the recent Pokémon HOME changes.

@@CammyMeeleTea Wow! I didn't expect such a detailed and thoughtful reply! I'm really stoked! If I'm being honest I'm pretty new to coding myself and I'm only on my second Pokemon Essentials fan game project. I am making my current project into an 18 gym leader game (one for each type) so I wanted to look at many ways to make every type shine. Beyond just experimenting with type matchups I have also looked at a battlefield system that effects types, moves and abilities on battlefield by battlefield basis. (If you've heard of Pokemon Reborn, Rejuvenation, and/or Desolation then its directly inspired from those games.) I have settled on making fairy weak to bug and bug resist fairy. Also bug type pokemon being immune to confusion. (thanks to 9Destra's comment on your video) With the ice type I will have it resist water for now. But, I'm willing to change those for a long while now,- I'm pretty early into development. Who knows? Maybe I'll include even more of your type changes ideas :) I appreciate your story too, I'm fired up after hearing it! I'll look forward to your future videos! Thank you!

@@DuelingSteel The battlefield thing sounds cool, it's a lot like how in the Pokémon anime there were "unofficial" fields for different Pokémon types. A gym for each type also sounds cool. It's why I liked that Scarlet and Violet had a gym, titan, or base for each type.

That's cool of you to say. I may come across frigid, but my proposals aren't. Overall, I'm glad that the reception was in snow way chilly.

Yeah, I only targeted Ground because it hits everything good and was only resisted by two bad types and 1 average type.

Check my most recent video about Scald's rework.

I think it's really interesting. Aurora Veil is more consistent on the rare Snow Warning Pokémon. And at the moment the best Snow setter is Chilly Reception Slowking. I'm curious to see what a good manual Hail/Snow setter looks like. I feel like I've really only seen Rain and Sun manually set for the damage boosts.

My guy why are you capitalizing the types. Are you a Game Boy? Are you BMO from Adventure Time? What is this?

Sometimes thinking far outside the box yields interesting solutions. After all, these are all proposals. After these proposals, it's up to modders to implement the idea if they like it. Then we'll let the players decide if it's fun or not. That's the best part of video proposals, they're not going to necessarily be implemented, so there isn't an urgent need to debate about it like Game Freak is really going to do this. 🤣

What about smashing ice into each other?

I see, I can see what you're saying about Normal. It makes thematic sense, but from an overall balance sense, resisting Normal still leave Ice outclassed by Steel. Ice vs Water is mentioned, it's all about total volume.

I’d honestly make Ice completely immune to Electric

I wish Rock had resistances that matter other than Fire.

@CammyMeeleTea same, but as it stands there isn't a lot we can do to buff rock directly, we need to buff the Stab of poison and bug, thus giving more value to rock's resistance to those types. Like a lot of us, fairy shouldn't resistant bug, yet it does. Not sure who else shares this sentiment, but it should alao be weak to bug, purely for balance and give more incentive to use bug moves other than uturn. There's also ghosts and fighting resistance to bug which I don't understand either so in this case, I feel you can either choose one or both. I suspect the reason why bug is resisted by 7 types is to emulate its inherent weakness due to small size, but I think game freak went overboard and bug is the type they use when they want to give a type resistance when they can't think of one. I feel these nerfs would good because all three types are already good and need something to dial them down while also give the types still resistant to bug more value defensively. As for poison, I think it's pretty good as is, but giving water a weakness to poison with water pollution as the explanation. In relation to rock, all those water rock types get some more mileage out of the dual typing by being some of the few water types to not be hurt by poison.

Yeah, I don't play Genshin. I just never got an ad for a Hydro hero.

It was still a cool proposal.

It can yeah. Max Def Hisui Avalugg guarentee survives +Speed Weavile’s Life Orb Low Kick (120BP) without Snow. Though I imagine Hisui wouldn’t go all out in def investment given it wants to do damage with that big attack stat.

Right, I explained it wrong because I was mostly focusing on Ice conductivity versus Water.