@@Linfamy Hello Linfamy. Remember/see my comment about horses? Well only nameworthy one I could find in internet was Matsukaze of the samurai Maeda Keiji, could you tell us in future about this pair, or have you already in some video I haven't seen?
@Kakashi Hatake The term "Wakashu" was used primarily during the Edo period. After that it's usage was replaced by the term "shounen." Kind of like how we don't call a toilet a "commode" anymore.
@@_Green_Onions_ Thank you so much!! I'll go and Google about all those stuffs... Now that you've told me about the credit thing, I'll be careful all the time. Thanks a lot, once again 🤗
@@_Green_Onions_ The thing is most of my elders(including my parents and elder sibling) except seniors at school tell me to learn about stuffs myself. To experience it myself, that's how I'll grow up better. But of course, it's really great to have someone warn and tell you beforehand about stuffs which actually matter in life. It would be great if you won't mind providing me with more info 😊
@lamya bouchantouf oh honey its not Islam just the time period. In Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet when Paris went propose, Juliet's dad said she was too young and Paris said "Younger than her are happy mothers still" Juliet was 13...meaning it was common to see pregnant 11 year olds or breastfeeding 12 year olds.
@Baby Hunn That's false information... Aisha got married young, but Muhammad never touched her until she is an adult... He just let her play dolls with her friends, provide living place and meals to her as her husband. This is based on my knowledge and I never knew about him making love with Aisha
Not exactly, the adult men were only allowed to like it under certain conditions. Relationships between adult men were not allowed, and it was very frowned upon for the adult to be penetrated.
Haaa so that's why Yaoi/BL manga often have this trope where one guy is young, almost childlike, while the other guy is like the embodiment of a mature gentleman. I see...
I always thought that it was a stand in for a teenagers fantasies of a mature figure showing you the "forbidden delights" of adulthood. With an extra touch of more forbidden. (A lot of places and families are still a bit homophobic.) Which is why it's so popular amongst young girls. (Which sex and sexuality is still more restrictive than boys.) I say this as someone who was a teenage girl. Though as an adult it is definitely something that would set alarm bells in my head...
@@Animefreakess The "yaoi" trope in Japan with an adult man and teenage boy is more read by adult men. The female audience does read shounen ai or yaoi, but in their case it would more often be between two bishounen who can be very young, or young. A major point is the appearance of the protagonists. (since I keep getting responses to this: I made a distinction between men and women. Yaoi is for women, hence I didn't use quotation marks. For men the genre is called differently, so I used the word "yaoi". Japanese BL in general is wrongfully called yaoi, even some sites with the material put both male and female genres in the yaoi category. If I use bara or gei komi, many people will not understand what I'm talking about. I apologise if I made it confusing and perhaps offended someone.) I don't say the majority of "yaoi" readers is men. On the contrary, BL always had a huge female Japanese audience. What I'm saying is that the yaoi intended for female audience is written differently than "yaoi" intended for (adult) male readers.
When relationships aren't based in equality the only way for men to get into one is a power imbalance that allows them to abuse their partner. Be it gender or age.
@@verybarebones This. Like, that's really all it boils down to. It's a power dynamic. Heterosexuals did it too. A father giving his daughter away to be married was an exchange of property. Inklings of this still exist in traditions today.
@@verybarebones Sex is not this fantastical movie idea of love and affection culminating in a moment of mutual bliss. It's solely about obtaining personal physical gratification or exerting control over your partner's. All of this lovey dovey nonsense pollutes the very concept and gives people unrealistic expectations in relationships.
@@trajectoryunown Umm.. I mean, you're (partially) not wrong, since that also exists, but that doesn't mean the "lovey dovey" stuff is nonsense, that's a thing too. It's not like there is only one way to have sex or to feel for your partner.
@@raspberrycrowns9494 imagine hating these men chasing after you but accepting their money and giving them time anyway and pretending you like them just because you can't escape from your own culture then they think you like them but you're being tsundere about it
Just to be clear, since being a Wakashu is something that you can grow out of if you decide to change the hairstyle and clothing, does this mean Wakashus can eventually become the "doms" that look for other Wakashu?
Suddenly the doujinshi and animes where the bottom is 'embarrassed by their own desire' make more sense. Didn't expect it to be a history thing like that
@@lainiwakura1776 still? Even at this point of time? I feel like people would have finally realized that it’s only natural so they shouldn’t feel that way
@Ethan Cox but most of those cases still don't represent women sexuality in a positive light. She's either depicted as a hoe; dyed hair, shorts with butt hanging out and boobs in your face coz lord forbid a regular jane enjoys sex. Or she's a frigid boss need of a good diddling to put her in her rightful place. Most hentai is demeaning to women tbh... and now I'm just going to quickly forget that I had a whole philosophical argument about the misogyny inherent in animated porn.
As a BL manga reader, I understand now why there is this kind of sick cliché where the bottom accepts or "falls in love" with the top because of compassion "oh, poor top, he was so in love with me that he tried to rape me and I even got mad at him. Next time I'll apologize"
Most countries don't teach the more embarrassing parts of their own history. I've had to come to terms with all kinds of falsehoods I was taught in school living in the US, but I'm glad I did. Historical context is a positive way to move forward, even if it's not what we want to hear. Unfortunately, I've seen Japanese people remaining in that bubble of comfortable ignorance like: "Why are Koreans so mad? They should just get over it." Rest of the world: *sweats*
@@viracocha6093 ??? Sparta famously encouraged warriors to take other warriors as lovers, as that would make them fight more fiercely. But, Japan's way of doing things has much more in common with the Athenian way, than the Spartan 🤷🏼♀️
So back in the day, Wakashu and women were depicted in art looking pretty much identical. Nowadays, femboys and women in anime can often be indistinguishable at first glance. If nothing else, at least the Japanese are consistent throughout the centuries.
The facets of the modern world, how bizarre and weird our customs are, if one showed the customs of our modern age to those in the past and those in the future, neither ones would think of us as sane.
Yeah, I was excited for this video! I had thought I'd saved it to watch later, found I didn't, and literally scrolled back through a hoard of videos just to watch this! And all to be let down by the real history...😬
@@Linfamy I'm afraid to ask what if he says like "oh my little tanuki I may be old but I'm still young at heart....to the men atleast" what if I find out my grandfather is a pimp! 😤😫
What's kinda fascinating is that young men and boys in Greece had almost the exact same role with the same rules and implications, like the younger one is the "bottom" and how the older man was a mentor for the young boy. Its fascinating how different cultures evolved to have the same ideas and practices often independently from one another.
Also Ancient Greece. (From which Rome copied much of their culture especially their high culture, religion, art, architecture etc, even government i.e. senators generally spoke Greek while common folk spoke Latin).
The Rome and Greece thing is somewhat of a historical misinterpretation. Unlike with wakashu, where attraction and sex acts were explicitly detailed in writing, no such thing exists in Greek literature. The relationship between adult men and young boys was closer to that of master and student and held an element of affection closer to that of a father or older brother. To my knowledge such sex acts were heavily frowned upon, either between adults or adults and minors. This is supported by the prevalence of heavy homophobia present in much of Greek writing and law (Homosexuality was punishable by death in Athens). A lot of the “top” and “bottom” power dynamic is a historical distortion by some notable modern historians in an attempt to legitimize homosexual relations by citing historical examples. Or in this case creating them
@@noidsuper In Plato's Phaedrus, it is related that, with time, the erômenos develops a "passionate longing" for his erastês and a "reciprocal love" (anteros) for him that is a replica of the erastês’ love. The erômenos is also said to have a desire "similar to the erastes', albeit weaker, to see, to touch, to kiss and to lie with him
I actually feel sort of sorry for the boys who didn't like boys. And even more for the ones who DID and got thrown out when they got too old. Poor boys.
This was quite educating, now i understand historically why yaoi ukes are always depicted as fragile, beautiful and childlike while the semes were depicted manly, mature and dominant.
I remember watching a documentary that geisha was initially for companionship. They talk, entertain, hang around men who bought their time for the day.. but maybe their brothels wanted more money that they allowed THAT kind of service to get more money. Some to buy their freedom.. some wants to get more favor by doing that to get their patron to buy them out of the establishment.. or idk. XD So maybe it goes the same way for the males who entertain other men. They were trained to sing, dance, other sets of skills(instruments, sewing, dancing,poetry etc etc) and has very good charisma so they could keep the patrons coming and never getting bored of them. Thus making the brothel thrive
Because wakashu romance was still bad taste in their old society. Not illegal like today, but still frowned upon. Since why prey on young boys when there are alot of young women available?
@@seraby7151 you wrong tho , most young woman don't allow to go outside , so the man turn their eyes to the young boy , and it weren't frowed upon even widely accepted
Yeah fuck love triangles! Usually the love triangles are like: 2 people love another 1 person who can't choose. That's not a love triangle, that's more like an angle. REAL love triangles is if all of them loves both people
Kinda. Yaoi has a top and bottom and the bottom is the role women can insert themselves into. Women in Japan were not seen as equal until recently, and even then...
This episode was both hilarious and appalling at the same time. I learned a lot though. I wish the mentorship on both sides (male and female) was more common place, but without the romantic connotations. It would have been great to have a guide to kind of teach you and work with you one on one to help you reach your goals, like a third parent (in some cases a second parent because one is missing, or their only parent as in the case of orphans). Anyway, thank you for sharing this historical knowledge with us. Your sense of humor really helped get through some of the courser parts.
*THE AMOUNT OF ROASTING IS GIVING ME LIFE* this was very interesting and educational and unbiased. the way it's delivered (with the roasts) is just _chef's kiss_
"But fear not, something from the wakashu times may have survived in the modern day: The look of bishounen. I hear the ladies are into it" This one hit me right on the mark 😂
Thanks for the information! I love the manga "Momo To Manji" and I think this helped me continue to understand it on a deeper level since it's a story based during the later half of the Edo period.
"Parents sometimes had a problem with their wakashu sons being way too attractive." SHOWS KENTO YAMAZAKI'S PHOTO. Edit: 1.4k likes. Damn Kento lend me his popularity effect 😂
I have not regretted my subscription to your channel, outstanding composition and commentary aimed towards historical accuracy. I became an instant fan after watching only 1 or 2 videos and subscribed immediately.
i think it's funny that men consider facial hair, deep voice, and generally masculine features unattractive but have those themselves like the self hatred is realllll
Personally I don’t mind masculine features on women. A lot of non mlm don’t mind those features but they can’t think of those things in a sexual way, it feels strange for men who like feminine features to see manly features in that way. Femininity is a lot easier to take on because lots of guys who like women like the feeling of being the dominating one (this is why pretty men were easier to accept in the past; they were more submissive and looked like women)
Oh also something interesting. I think it’s easier for women to be like “wow she’s so hot I’d let her get it”. It’s a little bit because of performance bisexuality. Society says it’s ok if straight women mess around especially if it’s for a man. Whereas men are told to bully any man who does this. Society has told us that anybody can admire women but if men admire men you’re disgusting (it’s starting to change)
The fact that male pattern baldness was such a common thing that male Japanese hairstyles back in the day seem to be addressing the issue by shaving the parts most likely to have balded and then pulled a come over before it was even a thing.
@@yvainedafoe5492 Why...why? I had succeed in banishing this anime from the surface of my thoughts and feelings. And what you just said... Causing a park to light up a neural pattern that was left unused for years, bringing back to life a conduit of memories that once carefully buried in the deepest of my subconscious And then you were there. Here you are Making me REMEMBER THIS DAMN ANIME?????? 😭😭😭
Its funny how they considered enjoying homosexual relations was weird and the one receiving was a young boy. Now its wrong to enjoy young boys and its ok to enjoy homosexual relations. Swapped for the better.
I always wondered if these kind of practices have something to do with a rather strict separation of the worlds of men and "respectable" (aka not sex workers) women. It seems a bit of a common denominator, but who knows?
@@blossominghope8567 Can't say I was thinking about them specifically tbh. Sexual abuse of minors is rampant among the priesthood, but it's not the sort of "official", socially sanctioned, institution that it seemed to be in Greece and, apparently, Japan. At least as far as I know. Not super knowledgeable on the subject. But yeah, I guess the catholic priesthood also separates men from women. I would not be surprised if there are similarities.
@Takki Further proof of man's sexual fluidity. If these facts were taught in schools, people will become more open-minded, liberal & accepting of lgbtq people which is a BIG NO-NO for the world's bigoted communities like church people, chauvinistic terror groups, etc. 😐
@Mullerornis Their ritual blew my mind when I read about it in high school, 2006! 💦🤯💦 (yeah, I'm one of those people who skipped school a lot because the teachers were just sooo boring. I always hid in the library.)
This literally explains why it's so common to see crossdressers or effeminate men in anime!! It's not necessarily because they're all trans (some are) like some people think, but that they're emulating this. The character Ritsu Sohma is stunted in his life and he feels comfortable wearing womens clothing. It's when he grows up mentally and becomes confident that he begins to wear men's clothing and has a relationship with a woman. Almost like a similar coming of age that is connected to the clothing!
no seriously I absolutely hated that, that was so disturbing and such a horrible abuse of power, I feel so much pain for the young boys who had to go through that kind of mental, physical and emotional abuse. Edit: 1. plz don't be fucking homophobic in my replies 2. I'm commenting on the fact that the dubious consent (onesided attraction and coercion to submit sexually in a situation where you feel no attraction is emotionally manipulative and whatever obligation you feel is inherently abusive.) I know it's a modern perspective on an ancient problem but objectively its bad. it was abusive even if they didn't realize it was. if it worked, things would stay the same but they changed for a reason. we don't condone sex with minors because we understand the power dynamic and abuse at play. they didn't but it doesn't mean it didn't exist or that it wasn't wrong. 3. this should go without saying but this horrible practice isn't a reflection of the entire country or culture bc every country and culture has its sus moments the same way people make mistakes so plz don't be hateful in my replies regarding race religion gender sex sexuality culture color, fucking anything.
@@lucyk8935yeah like being obligated to give your body to someone else's lust while you feel none yourself bc of your culture? AND AS A CHILD! like I'm south Asian so I'm aware of messed up things in my culture too but I don't stand by any of it. this has me heartbroken, not trying to be culturally insensitive but this was bad imo.
Okay everyone in this comment thread needs to send me a link to what they’re talking about cause these are things I’ve never heard about but want to learn about 😂😭 lmfao
@@HighsideOfJupiter wait so you're telling me you never heard of "bacha bazi" and other middle eastern traditions that had similarities with Greeks and the "wakashu"? Ya Gotta google some stuff but I gotta warn ya, the stuff in Afghanistan didn't go away like the rest but got much worse
In the sense of mentoring this sounds very much like ancient/classical Greco-Roman culture. In Greece it was very formalized, often as a deal between the father and potential paramour, resulting in the youth being symbolically kidnapped! It's all very convoluted, but interesting. These mentoring relationships were especially in Sparta (despite what the movie 300 would have us believe.)
"the art of licking an ice-cream cone without letting it melt on your hand" That is one heck of a skill that many (myself included) practice to this day XD
I don't think they did since it was considered normal, remember that not so long ago in western countries (and by not so long ago i mean 80s 90s) it was completely socially accepted for grown men to hit on and sleep with teenage girls, here in France the age of consent is still 16 and until recently you could marry at that age. So if people were that careless in the 90s I imagine people from the Edo era didn't give a single shit. Also if i understood that video correctly, all the men hitting on wakashu have been wakashu themselves at some point, so i guess it was a sort of "if I endured it then so can you" kind of mindset
It was not disturbing at all this whole thing that grows man should be with young children is just a European construct obviously there should be consent I mean the average age of losing your virginity in the United States is 16 years old so how does it matter anyway, the minimum age of consent in France is 15 years old President Emmanuel macron literally slept with his high school teacher when he was 15
This is so much like pederasty in Classical Athens that it's eerie. The behaviors, the power dynamics, the concept that male youth occupied its own sexual and aesthetic sphere, all of it. I wonder why these two particular cultures, separated by both great distance and time, developed such similar practices.
I feel sorry for the wakashu. As soon as you hit puberty, some oldies start lusting over you ugh! Even if you hate it you don’t have a choice. Because of compassion? Pleeeaaase!
@@Linfamy Depends on your luck then. There MUST have been some unlucky wakashus that got the attention of really oppressive and overcontrolling figures from the high ups.
It's interesting how fluid the sexual attraction was. I think a lot of people, including myself, see changes in their sexual preference as time goes on. I also wonder if things like this and what the Greco-Roman people did could be a Mt least partially why people (wrongfully) associate homosexuality with pedophilia. I'm not saying it's the only reason, that's a broader concept, but it seems people made the association for more than just because of the Bible's misttanslation & Christian campaigns to change the word that meant "pedophile" into "homosexual".
To the fujoshis/fudanshis: Pls this is not yaoi.. this is historical toxic relationship.. Also, it's interesting to know they had this kinda thing going on w the clothing n age n stuff
@@LuinTathren i think they just don't want yaoi fans to fantasize about this stuff cause its kinda wrong even with oldern time standards taken into account
The only people saying yaoi are people who don't even like yaoi or dislike it not to forget the "wtf japan" added up with the word yaoi. I'm actual surprise that many people are not aware of this, it's relatively known that it's something in south europe and Many part of Asia... there is even BL and anime about the edo period talking about the subjects. They talk about how Japan is weird but hey let's not talk about all of the fucked up traditions around the worlds even in Europe, but let's say that Japan has to be the weird one rights...?
"Something from the wakashu time may have survived in the modern day: the look of the bishonen or beautiful boy. I hear the ladies are into it." I don't understand why I prefer prettier guys rather than the manly ones. But, yeah.
K POP & BTS is Wakashu!!! Mos Def lol I think that is what they are lowkey bringing back to modern times. Hence, some countries banned them calling them 'gay'. #TheMoreWeKnow
_"Writers went on and on about the pain and suffering of being a bottom"_ me who never had these kind of bedroom activities but got the bottom role in a test : *oh no*
Excellent. Well delivered and very interesting. Patronage spans quite a diverse breadth of doings, and this expression obviously best served the patron, but must also have even created wakashu who were well known for their beauty, loyalty and poise? Interesting to consider what elements may have snuck their way into modern times as gender bending 'Boy Bands' strike the height of Fame and success!
I remember Takeda Shingen send a letter to his male lover explaining “I’m not cheating on you” “I didn’t sleep with other boys that’s misunderstanding. Please don’t be mad” and such in his 20’s.
