In this video I compare Ir measurements between my 2 XTAR VP4+ cell testers and my brand new LiitoKala Lii-600. Quick and dirty...the Lii-600 is wildly wrong at measuring Ir.
Thank you for a great video. Unfortunately I have already went out and purchased a Lii-600 without seeing your review otherwise I would have consider some other charger. At the time I didn’t think much about how Lii-600 measured the internal resistance. I can see, thanks to your review, why it would be difficult for the Lii-600 to measure the internal resistance of a cell. First of all to do it correctly a 4 wire system must be used, 2 wires supplying the power/load and must be connected to different part of the battery terminals to that of the two wires. The Lii-600 uses a single wire to each of the terminals on the battery. This would could cause a huge errors if there was slightest amount of grease or corrosion on the any of battery terminals as Lii-600 would be measuring terminal resistance plus the battery resistance.
2 issues with Liitokala products that I have seen repeatedly... 1. This doesn't always happen, but I have 8 Lii-600 and 1 Lii-500S and 4 of the 9 do this. They don't measure capacity accurately after a while. Slowly, capacity results become less and less accurate. Those 4 cell testers tend to measure cell capacities at about 50% higher than it really is. They still charge OK, but the capacity results they produce are unreliable. 2. The Ir measurements are never trustable. You stated a few of the reasons why and there are others as well. *** If you can send back the Lii-600, I recommend doing this and getting a VP4+ instead.
The lii-600 charger measures DC resistance and the XTAR VP4+ charger probably measures AC resistance because I see a 4 wire probe there. Both resistances are correct but measure something different.
The VP4+ gives me resistance results that are very consistent with a real cell Ir tester. The Lii-600 does not. The VP4+ is a 4 wire tester. How do you know the Lii-600 results are correct? I find this to be highly unlikely considering there are no inductors or capacitors inside a LION cell that might respond differently to DC vs AC. You would need to provide real proof before I believed the Lii-600 produces reliable Ir results! The industry standard for IR testing is what I'm going to follow and it is my belief that the VP4+ does this much more closely than does the Lii-600. It's still much to fast in testing for Ir. It ought to take 20 seconds to get Ir results and the VP4+ has results in about 1-2 seconds. Still...in those 2 seconds...the VP4+ Ir results are 1-3% off at most to a match with a real cell Ir tester. The Lii-600 is usually 200-300% wrong. I simply DON'T trust the Lii-600 for Ir testing!!! I have 3 of them and they all test Ir far off the mark!
@@de-bodgery Take the trouble to see what DC and AC resistance measurement is all about. The Lii-600 measures indirect resistance like an ordinary meter, as if you were measuring the resistance of a resistor. Indirect methods of measuring resistance consist in setting up a measuring instrument (voltmeter, ammeter) and the object under test in an appropriate measuring circuit and directly applying Ohm's law. Such a method is very often called the technical method. The measured resistance is equal to the voltage indicated by a voltmeter divided by the current indicated by an ammeter. Unfortunately, the devices used are not perfect. They have some definite and finite internal resistance which, when the device is incorporated into the circuit, affects the result of the measurement. The value indicated by the voltmeter is not the voltage drop across the resistor only, or the current indicated by the ammeter is not the current flowing through the resistor only. The result of resistance measurement is therefore affected by a method error (systematic error). In contrast, resistance measurement using the AC method is basically an impedance measurement. The signal from an AC generator of sinusoidal function with frequency 1kHz is connected in series with a resistor, a battery under test and a capacitor. This measurement excludes wire and contact resistance. lygte-info.dk/info/Internal%20i ... %20UK.html By the way, there is no information anywhere on what measurement is done by XTAR VP4+ charger
@@arekd1227 I did mention inductors and capacitors on purpose as they react quite differently to DC vs AC. Maybe it's in that article you posted that LION cells have inductance and capacitance? I can't read it as I get a 404 when I go to the URL. I'd wager they do have some inductance and capacitance. A mosfet is a switching device, but anyone using them in a high frequency application has to contend with the gate capacitance eventually. These sorts of characteristics exist in all sorts of electrical and electronic devices. So I'm not really sure what you are getting at here. Ohms law is pretty basic stuff, I learned about that at least 30 years ago. *** While this is all fascinating, it doesn't answer the fundamental question about the fact that the XTAR VP4+ actually measures Ir similarly to a real cell Ir tester. I don't claim to know how a legit Ir tester measures. I haven't put my o-scope on a cell under Ir test to look at the wave forms. What I know is that the XTAR VP4+ measures pretty similarly to a real IR tester and the Lii-600 does not. I read a white paper on Ir testing and the industry standards need about 20 seconds to complete. The VP4+ tests Ir much too quickly at around 2 seconds. STILL...this reading is very similar to a real Ir tester and the Lii-600 is NOT even in the same ballpark. If I might surmise about HOW these 2 cell testers try to measure cell Ir, it is that the Lii-600 is applying DC to the cell poles, measuring the voltage and current plus the resistance of the contacts to the cell and any other system losses and then "creating" some kind of low precision guess. It is usually wildly wrong!!! Since the VP4+ does produce Ir results very close to a real IR tester, I'll assume it's doing some sort of test that is much faster, but at least similar to the legitimate test.
Why wouldn't they use a solid probe? 0:58 I mean, I'm thinking the ir inconsistency is because of the spring mechanism itself causing variable contact/resistance
It's called value engineering or how to cheapen stuff to the point where it still works, but just barely. There are spring loaded cell holders that won't have the problems the Lii-600 cell holders have. They also cost about $6 each. SO you tell me...$24 for 4 really good cell holders or $1 for 4 super cheap ones that barely work? Also, most people, they won't go as far as I did. They wont get nearly every cell tester on the market and an Ir meter to check results. Manufacturers can get away with BS like this because most people don't know any better and don't check for accuracy. *** The entire spring loaded mechanism in ALL cell testers is a giant problem for Ir testing. XTAR with the VP4+...I have to give them solid props for NOT compromising on this and using dedicated probes for Ir testing!!! If they had done it like every one else, of course Ir would be wildly in accurate! Using the spring loaded battery holders for Ir testing is a poor choice...no doubt about it! *** FYI...despite the fact that the VP4+ does Ir testing in a much more reliable way, they still don't do proper Ir testing. When it is done right, it should take right at 20 seconds to test any given cell. The proper way to test is to charge the cell for 10 seconds while measuring voltage and current. Use that to calculate for resistance. Then discharge for 10 seconds while measuring voltage and current to calculate discharge resistance. Average them together. Now you have 20 seconds of charge and discharge and you should get a highly reliable Ir value that matches the industry standard method for testing this battery characteristic. The VP4+ finds Ir in 2 or 3 seconds.
I would like to measure the capacities and internal resistances of approximately 220 18650 lion batteries by first charging and then discharging them. Is there a charger you can recommend? I would appreciate it if you could answer me.
The Xtar charger Dragon what ever its called are a dangerous one... 2 of mine caught on fire, xtar didn't want to help me out at all, nor their resellers.. Terrible customer service, and they weren't cheap back when I bought them either..
Thank you for making this video. But despite the mismeasurement of IR, does Lii-600 have any other cons or malfunctions after months of your experience with this product?
Is poor reliability a problem? 3 of the 8 Lii-600's I have no longer measure cell capacity correctly. Meanwhile all 8 of the VP4+'s I have are doing great.
@@FunnyPartMent Discharge capacity measurements on the Lii-500S and Lii-600 are questionable. I have a Lii-500S and this function after maybe a month of use got badly wrong. I have 3 Lii-600's that after a month or so of use also started to produce fake discharge capacity results. Test mode is 3 steps: Charge - discharge - charge. I rarely care about charge capacity since that is not very important for when you are riding around on battery power. I care a LOT about testing discharge capacity. Any cell tester I buy/use needs to be able to discharge a cell and accurately measure it's capacity. I don't really trust Liito Kala products in this regard. Charging and shutting off at 4.2v is pretty fool proof. Whether the charge capacity is accurate or not...I'm not sure, but then I rarely care about this either.
You’re teasing me now! I’ll be interested to see your test results. So far, a new set (2) of Panasonic 18650 3500mAh cells show: Li-600 52 and 43 m ohms respectively Vapcell S4+ 148 and 121 m ohms respectively. 🤷
IF those cells are really showing that high of an Ir, send them back! There is something seriously wrong with them. Any brand new cell ought to show a LOW Ir. My PF's in this video are from 2018 and they still have a low Ir and MUCK lower than you are reading! The Lii-600 is still showing the same Ir for those 4 cells. I'm not sure how the Lii-600 is getting Ir, but it isn't from measuring the cells. If it did, the resistance would change as the cells charge and discharge and they are not changing. *** I have a very cheap 2 wire mOhm meter. It surprisingly enough measured 15 mOhms on that one cell shown in this video. I pulled out my 4 wire milli ohm meter and it too measured 15 mOhms. Double thumbs up for the XTAR VP4+!! 2 meters AND 2 XTAR VP4+ all showing very similar IR for the same cell...that's confirmation! *** The Ir "measured" by the Lii-600...is HIGHLY suspicious! I flat out do NOT believe it!
@@de-bodgery I have two of the Lii-600 and with a recovered cell it will often start at 300mOhns or higher. Once charging for a few minutes that drops down by at least 2/3 in most cases. I landed here to see if me Lii-600 is testing correctly.
@@dhiyaredding4776 The lii-600 does fine as a cell capacity tester, but the Ir function is way off. I made another video where I recorded Ir and capacities across several cell testers that have both these functions. In the end, I came back to the XTAR VP4+ as the best option. All the others were way off on Ir testing, but reasonably good at capacity testing. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-e75Rhctddck.html
Aaaand replace them with what? If you have a better cell tester that the VP4+ I''d like to know about it! It's far BETTER than the Lii-600 in almost every way!
@@thedryparn1279 Lii-600 is a 2 wire Ir tester and it uses the spring terminals which are higher resistance than the typical cell in the bays!!! Any cell tester that uses this method for Ir measuring is going to be highly unreliable. The VP4+ is a 4 wire Ir tester and it uses sharp tipped probes to pierce through any grunge on the cells to get a good Ir reading. I'd say that the VP4+ isn't an excellent Ir tester, but it's far superior to anything that uses the spring clips in the cell bays! That's hardly "throw away"! Build quality is far superior too. I own 8 Lii-600 cell testers and I'm down to 5 of them. The 3 that failed, still work for charging, but their capacity results are highly suspect! Build quality is much higher in the VP4+! I own 8 VP4+ and after 3 years of steady use, 1 bay in one of the 2 oldest of them is now showing capacity result issues. The rest are doing fine! I trust the VP4+ far more than I do the Lii-600!
@@de-bodgeryHas any of those 2 testers been compared with something of known accuracy? As far as I can see you are comparing 2 unknown testers. The fact that one tester's readings are lower doesn't mean anything.
why are you asking me a support question for a charger I don't address in this video? If you wish to ask about the Lii-600 or the VP4+ that's great, but your question isn't about either of those cell testers.
@@de-bodgery bcoz I watch a few videos of yours and I trust your expert advice. So when I have a similar question I believe that you might know the answer
@@kiatlc Well thank you...I appreciate that. I have never seen your charger model...so I don't know anything about it. I can give you a guess. Most cell testers that do real capacity testing for Li-Ion cells charge to 4.2v, discharge to like 2.5v and then charge to 4.2v again. This gets the cells to full charge so that their full discharge capacity can be measured next. Then the cells get charged again to full so that real charge capacity can be determined. I suspect those 2 readings you see are discharge and charge capacities.
@@kiatlc during charge mode it is showing you the mAh put in. A worthless number compared to what comes out. Unfortunately my 4 VC4SL’s have tested 8% less capacity than other testers (VC-8, Lii-500S, EBC A20). My guess is they don’t pull the cell below 3.0V but I could be wrong. Hard to get probes in when a cell is in the slot
Hello, thanks for video. i bought eneloop AA batteries and thought that i can buy a charger with lithium charge property, also measurement. Are these brands trustable like panasonic c55 or c17 for charging ? i eliminated liitokola and will buy opus c3100 or xtar vc4sl or nitecore d4. which one do u recommend most. if they are not trustable enough, i can both buy panasonic and one of the others.
Thanks for the vedio, can you recommend me a good, consistent capacity tester especially for 21700 batteries, i have a seperate 4 wire ir tester. Gotta test about 100 cells. Would be great if its affordable ( xtar vp4 plus isn't available in india )
En gros, si je comprends bien le Xtar est plus fiable en terme de valeur de Résistance Interne ( IR ). En terme de charge lequel est le plus fiable ? Sachant qu’en réalité un accu ne doit pas être rechargé à 100% pour ne pas être endommagé je suis partagé entre les chargeurs qui chargent à fond et ceux qui laissent de la marge ..En terme de sécurité apparement le Lii 600 n’indique que la température mais ne possède pas de protection adéquate… Après j’ai lu quelques retours négatifs quand à la fiabilité du Xtar sur Amazon. Ça vaut quoi ces 2 chargeurs face au SkyRc Rc3000 ? Tu as l’air de bien tester la fiabilité de ce genre en équipement aussi j’aimerais bien que tu testes dans la mesure du possible l’Opus BT3100 pour savoir où il se situe par rapport aux autres ou le Dlyfull UT4 (voir les entrailles de ces bêtes ). En terme de nouveauté côté chargeur : Maha MH9000pro, SkyRC RC2200 et ISDT C4Evo, pourraient être intéressant à tester ultérieurement ;)
Best cell tester I have seen to date is the XTAR VP4+. It beats out everything else for the best set of functionality that actually works. It does have a few detractors, but they are far outweighed by all the things it does well. If I had to buy just one cell tester it would be the VP4+! *** If all you care about is decent capacity results, get the lii-600. If you want to know cell Ir, the VP4+ does this well and it does capacity testing well. It's much better built than the lii-600. The MC-3000 ought to be lots better than both, but its a pain in the ass to use and it's not any better than the lii-600 at capacity testing. The only one of these 3 that i trust for Ir testing is the VP4+. The lii-600 and the MC3000 are waaay off on Ir tests. *** Reliability can be questionable on all of these kinds of devices. I've sent back a Lii-600 and a VP4+ because they were not working correctly right out of the box. I also have 3 lii-600's and 2 VP4+'s that are working fine in non-stop testing of 21700 cells. My 2 VP4+ cell testers have seen near continuous use for 9 months straight. My 3 Lii-600's have seen about 3 months of near continuous use. *** IF you want to stop charging at some voltage such as 4.0v, the only one of these 3 that does this is the MC-3000. It is also the most expensive, lousy at cell Ir and a giant pain in the ass to use. I don't recommend the MC-3000! SkyRC needs to do a major rewrite of how it works in many ways!!! The way the cell sliders work is really stiff and hard to get them moving so you can put cells in each bay. The user interface at the LCD is cryptic at best. The Android app is the only way to use this charger effectively and if you lose bluetooth connection, you lose all your test results! This charger has loads of potential to be very good and then SkyRC failed to deliver in any kind of good way! *** I had an Opus BT-3100. It only handles 2 21700 cells at a time. I need to fill all 4 bays with them. This is a VERY OLD cell tester design. Opus needs to do a rework of this charger and update the user interface. In the end after using mine for a month, I gave it to a friend. *** I don't know much about the Dlyful UT4 other than what others say about it and supposedly you can't set the current. Hard stop IMHO! *** Maha MH9000 Pro...not sure what this is. I did find a Maha 9000 Pro and it supports AA and AAA cells only. Same for the SkyRC NC2200...AA and AAA only. Hard STOP. *** ISDT has TONS of potential in their cell testers. They are made so you can't fill all the bays with 21700 or 18650 cells! WTF?! I have an ISDT 8 cell tester. IT HAS the capability to test any cell type, but the battery holders are for AA and AAA cells only. ISDT...what the hell were you thinking?!!! You literally shot yourself in the foot by not supporting tons of cell sizes with your cell holders! Not worth the trouble...hard STOP!
It seems that Lii-600 readings are not that precise and its charging and discharging modes, according to my tests, are kinda poor. I get better results with my La Crosse BC-700. I have to say that neither do I trust Lii-600 100%...
Agreed. You do get what you pay for and all Liito Kala products or cheap in most every way. The BC-700 only works wit nicad and nimh cells...so its not in the same league as the Lii-600 which can do those, plus li-ion.
So, what you are basically saying is that "something" that costs TWICE AS MUCH (almost 3 times more) than "something else" is better... well: thanks a lot for the info!! :-D Me I believe that a comparison review (the title states "X vs Y", thus it "appears" to be a comparison review...) should be done between items in THE SAME price range. For instance, since you are a competent in this matter and it seems you want to compare the XTAR brand to Liitokala (your main statement is that Liitokala stuff is built cheaper than XTARS), you should compare items in the same price range, such as the VC4, VC4S or the latest (better) VC4SL to the Lii-600. To me that would make A LOT more sense and would really be helpful to a guy (like me now...) who has to buy a charger, has to make up his mind and choose between the endless rainbow of items and brands that can be found on the market and, also, does not have the slightest intention of increasing the "allocated budget". I appreciate your review but, as interesting as it can be, I find the comparison you make kind of meaningless. "pay three times more and the stuff you'll get will be better", ok... Sorry for telling you this, maybe I shouldn’t be so straightforward...
So let me know when you have made even a single video on anything. I looked at your channel...1 video 4 years ago. In the past 4 years, I've made probably 100+. You have nothing....and I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to say when you utterly LACK any credibility! Who cares what you would do when you have ZERO content and have literally done nothing at all! *** I guess you suck at listening too. The Lii-600 is not 1/3rd the cost of the VP4+. Feel free to and buy that steaming piece of shit from Liito Kala. They are not very good and the VP4+ is! *** what a dick!
Don't care what you would do what with your ZERO CONTENT!!! FEEL FREE TO DO IT PROPERLY...you know...YOUR WAY and stop bitching about what I did. Instead...try saying thank you for the information.
Go away dipshit! You have ZERO credibility and ZERO content. Go whine about your pathetic opinion someplace where they care! In between time, I MAKE content and do look at the components and do tests on the hardware. You on the other hand, bitch and whine and complain and have ZERO content and ZERO credibility!!!
@@de-bodgery Its a good review because lots of people were buying litokala and regretting at the end capacity and IR test is no joke specially when you are building Powerwall or big batteries. You could burn down the house if you have bad cell in a pack
