[Limbus Company] Balance and Gacha | An Analysis of Recent Balance Issues and Consequences. 

Source?

@@Drako4177 Reddit. No, I lied, but that's where it blew up. It's some job site I don't know the name of

Funfact: people bring this up as if PM is retroactively hiring someone new after this whole Ringsang drama, in reality, that notice was put up in APRIL.

@@Drako4177 Korean job site called gamejob

Well yes and no Stronger ids also get the same amount of uptie So when a New uptie is added is when limbus can completly flip the meta around

​@@olixx1213upties aren't made the same for better or for worse. Look at u4 nclair or chef ryoshu. This creates problems but the ability is there for them to bring old ids up yo speed but of course even when u4 came around some bad ids got awful u4 for no reason. And if they add u5, then you'll have to go through a filler u4 that adds nothing so you can get the actual relevant buffs

its funny you say that whilst uptie 4 was a complete failure in that objective. sloshing ishmael turned from garbage to garbage, base ids are still awful, wcorp don became stronger for no reason, 2* burn ids are still unusable, shi association ids are still bad, rb gregor, mariachi sinclair, zwei rodion etc

@@user-bg2il4xi3w do not trash talk my queen shi ishmael 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️

@@user-bg2il4xi3w Liu ryoshu is very much a good id, and her skill 3 is finally pretty decent due to uptie 4 While Liu mersault isn't good (like all mersault ids, and without regret), he's still usable. And they tried for Liu Gregor I guess, the rest got shafted tho Édit : also shi ids aren't bad, beside heathcliff

Yeah I agree overall. It does feel more like they learned and improved their designs. However that still means we got left a bunch of weaker IDs at game's launch when they were already designing the last few IDs probably. We'll see what they do with upties and all, but also if it wasn't a gacha making retroactive patches to balance out older IDs probably wouldn't be as much of an issue, but well it'd probably also be a completely different game in design. Also I'd argue top older IDs are still very strong, but I wouldn't put them (all) as the strongest ones anymore.

PM also jave been strugling a lot woth enemies. They want it to have somedificulty but not balls to the wall unless explicitly so (ricardo) You can see just after finishing canto 5, more and more enemies have MAX LV and a +5 to ALL skills, making them literally 5 level avobe the player BUT withouth any of it giving More SP by basic SP clash conditions. And this followed to canto 6 up to the last part that got NERFED, by literally 1 base power, and 3 offense level, but sill keping he Max LV status An interesting thing i notice recently. For Yi sang and Ish, they got auto Max level for their dungeon. Heathcliff DOSNT, and if he dies you LOSE. WTF was PM thinking this whole canto? Boss rush after boss rush, enemies with literall 45 sanity turn 2-3 making the first turn being repeated by RNG like Ralway 1. All enemies lowering SP even in clash lose. Josephine literally UNSTAGGERS and gain 20 SP. The more i look back on canto 6 the more looks to be maxe by a totally diferent director/team.

​@@ericquiabazza2608 honestly, if the enemies ever reach 45 sp on turn 2 or 3 it's entirely your fault, the enemies won the clash because they had a higher offense level. what in the world were you thinking bringing in underleveled units and then complaining about the offense level difference? the level requirement exists for a reason, my friend.

adding onto this, every enemies that i have seen in canto 6 has a +0 or a +1 offense levels to most of their skills so i fail to comprehend how you were struggling friendo

⁠​⁠@@ericquiabazza2608I am sorry but this is an actual skill issue, jose gets sanity after unstagger? bro, you have so many skill slots to rush her down PLUS she loses a shit ton of sanity after killing her goons. “Waaaah I don’t wanna level up my healthcliff!(please ignore the fact that all you have to do is click exp lux, click skip, click confirm, repeat until you got some tickets and then level him up. and if you are too lazy to even do that, you can just borrow a health id)” if a boss has 45 sanity by turn end 2 or 3, you are doing something wrong

Lets not forget the old normal fight system where defensive skill where automatic and pass turn. "Too complicated" the smooth brains said. Tanks got so wreck by this hange, aggro adition barelly helps them.

​@@ericquiabazza2608wait you mean defence skills used to work how they did back in ruina?!

​@@lostgem8225 Yeah, until they changed it in RR1 because defense skills are being used as a discard-tech

They could even roll back pulsl. As we have direct saved data of EACH pull. So rolling back any pull doing 24 to even 72 hours prior will be easy. And not really infringing in any scaming behavior as people could decide to pull again or for something else Heck, they could even put a quesion: wabt to roll back pulls or not? Y/N That will be a first

@@ericquiabazza2608 For my knowldge is the last 10 pulls (so a min of 10 to a max of 100) so they would have to tweak their code and data storage a bit (specially for wanted events where players can pull 200 on 1 go - me last walpurgis) but yeah great idea

@@ericquiabazza2608 >tfw people start spending like crazy and causing drama so they have a second try at pulls

​@@ericquiabazza2608If they roll back pulls, it gives us one of two kinds of data: -Your pulls are rigged and you were meant to get the banner character from your 50 or something pulls. Now everyone knows that the rates are a scam and are actually rigged, meaning PM can get sued for this. -Your pulls are not rigged, you got lucky and that ID you earned from it is now being taken away from you. Good luck getting lucky in the banner again or in a future banner. See the problem as to why you can't just rollback that easily? If they even do so, they get setback a ton. It's not worth it.

​​@@ericquiabazza2608 Yeah, but them they would have a New problem, tread and shards, if you rolled 200 times for ID's, on the process you would have a ton of shards, and It probably would be pretty hard to keep track of them if you already spent it on another ID or in a uptie.

i paused 2 seconds before that exact point. damn.

I don't think people consider Pequod Heathcliff average? Average amongst like the S tier maybe... And honestly a lot of those good older IDs are still very solid, but, yeah, there is a lot of difference between S1 IDs and the ones we get these days

@@tuoritto it really is average of the average if you think about it tho 11 rolling s1 with 2 coins (I forgor) 16 rolling s2 with 3 coins (very average) 16 rolling s3 with 4 coins and up to 24 with conditionals Newer ids commonly roll 16 on s2 and s3 at base, s3’s of newer ids normally goes into the 20-25 range with conditionals, 26+ is above average. An s1 with 2 coins is the most common nowadays, an 11 roll is also average, the average being 11 or 12, 13+ is above average and 10- is below Ig only ‘good’ ids have 3 coiner s2’s, but if you look at any newly released ids, most have 3 coin skill 2’s, for example, ringsang, philipclair, butis, cpt ish and kimsault, p Heath is included in this Also a 4 coiner s3 is around the expected s3 coin amount, with butis, edgregor, cpt ish, ringsang and technically kimsault too Ids that don’t atleast come close to these coin numbers are considered anomalies (not that they are at all bad, just out of the AVERAGE these coin amounts are.) My point is here, this is the CURRENT average, this current day ‘average’ is wayyyyy above the old averages, being ~12-16 instead of ~16-25 nowadays I agree these ids are high tier, but with how many of them are being released, they have become the average. Highlighting ids like g Greg (considered the average for its time) and Pequod Heath (the average now via the things I outlined above) you can more clearly see how the average has crept up, pequod heath I do agree would be a very very good id if it was released back in the day, but current day it’s just the average (for 000s) With ids like w ryo, kimsault, ringsang, and Philipclair, these numbers can be raised once again if pm decides to continue on changing nothin, w ryo and kimsault put the possibility on the table that s2’s can roll 20+ numbers, smth before was only reserved for s3’s, 18 being the maximum like with tt Hong, ringsang and philipclair put the possibility that id skills can roll above 30/31 Again, they would normally be considered anomalies in the average just like w don and r Heath was back in the day, but again again, with the amount of ids being released like that, the average is being powercrept, to where pequod Heath is the average nowadays

​​@@chetar5075rolls by themselves aren't a good guide. Coin amounts and passive are also important to consider as well as offense level, bulk etc. Pequod heath is a very safe id, his rolls might be avergae at first glance but he gains both offense level and defense level when hit, he hits harder the lower his hp is with no cap other tham his own hp. His counter is among the best in the game unconditionally which also really helps his gameplay. He has really good bulk and an early stagger bar that can get removed in the first fight of railway/md so you don't have to worry about stagger for the rest of the fights. His rolls are balanced around this. They are a lie, he clashes better than you are led to believe due to offense level and he hits harder than you are led to believe due to offense level + damage increase from passive. When you think about it, he basically gains coin power in essence as he gets better clashes and better damage. Not to mention that he has the highest hp an id can have not counting kong lu's gimmick and egos like aedd that support his survaivavility even further. He is a swiss knife of an id. Bulky and strong and hits harder the more he tanks

?? I still use N Faust and Peq heath regularly. I agree that there’s a few Id like G Gregor but in general most are quite balanced around their own niche.

Well gachas and mobile games revenue come and goes with the content. And yeah better 00 are the ones that help sustaining an archetype or fulfilling a specific role rather than those being individually strong (cuz 000 are stronger individually already)

Well not really. New equipment (EGO for LC or Pages for ruina) is made to be stronger as part of the progression systems of the game. It makes sense there that the more you progress in the game, the stronger the sutff you get. Most games give you better stuff later in their story to give you this sense of progression. However Limbus Company and gachas don't work like that, because the stuff you get is not linked to player's progression but randomness. So you can get Ring IDs before Canto 2 and G Corp Gregor after finishing Canto 6. What symbolizes progression in Limbus is Levels (classic one) and Upties most likely. And that concerns every ID, and those systems are made to be stronger the farther you get in the game (there in the game lifetime).

@@MagnetAlpha I was making a half joke but yes you are correct.

@@2265Hello oops sorry, wasn't sure. But yeah PM tend to go a bit vertical in progression, so I'm a bit worried.

@@MagnetAlpha honestly it probably won’t stop but I am slightly worried about them not being able to nerf stuff since half of their balance in previous games was because they had early access players to be their play testers. But that aside they seem to be willing to evolve the end game and add new mechanics so who knows. But imo their issues with balance could be fixed if they had a better release schedule or at least release fewer ids per season. Either that or get more ppl

I'm not sure if Molar Outis is stronger than Regret Faust, especially with passive. But she could have ended up here, it's just that I had to choose 6 among all IDs. But otherwise I see, it's true that left side might be somewhat easier to use individually overall. Thanks.

@@MagnetAlpha As for the comparison between Molar Outis and Regret Faust, this may not be very clear from the outside, but since MOutis is a discarding character, her real average damage, counting all possible skill rotations, is 300 damage, while RFaust has an ideal average rotation with multi-targeting 335-340 (all C2 and C3 on 2 enemy targets (MOutis ideal discard without passive gives 340, by the way)). Yes, if you look at the maximum potential, then RFaust has 560, while MOutis has 540, but I seriously doubt that with maximum tremor there will be several targets. In addition, MOtis also has a higher average clash power (RFaust with passive 16.83 vs MOutis 18.75 in the real case and 21 in the perfect). Yes, I know what RFaust can inflict: 1 Coin Drop and 1 Offense Level Down on s2, but this is good but not enough. And I don't understand why her passive must exist with the existence of Oufi Heathcliff. Because of diminishing offense and defense, her 6 temporary Defense Level Down sounds weak (5.3% damage after 25 defense level down from Tremor Decay). I see it only for +1-2 Clash Powers. They close, but if I don't need to clear multiple waves, I will prefer Molar Outis because she is a more stable.

​@@Sir_AIonne Yeah I see your point and I agree overall. Both are close in the top spots anyway, and are more suited to different situations. However if I had to make a few arguments it'd first be that even if in theory you can get only s2 and 3 with Outis (because discard is broken I won't deny this) In practice you still have to use a few S1s. But more than that, getting the conditions for full power S3 in one rotation is extremely rare, so you'd need one more skill rotation, slot or luck for this, otherwise you will miss it at least the first time, maybe 1 out of 2 times. And you can't just keep it in the bottom part. Also Regret Faust passive is kinda mediocre compared to decay or even fracture sure, but it's a field passive with barely any conditions, and even if it's weaker I'm not considering opportunity cost, and it can just be added on top of them (especially fracture with Outis Binds).

​@@MagnetAlpha In practice, you can restart a stage if you need the perfect skill rotation. Thanks for the reminder, I rechecked and fixed my medium discard calculation so S1 will be used in the base 6 skills rotation with an average 17.62(6)% chance or 0.96 use of S1. So this reduces damage in the average rotation of Molar Outis to 287 and the average clash to 18.47 About S3, yep, sadly, but the chance for first usage with a coin boost with 1 slot will be only 13.(3)%+6.(6)% with some kind of controllable 50/50 from the next 6 skills. So after some rethinking, I suppose this kind of equalizes them in terms of power.

Thanks for the heads up. I don't allow links in the comment section anyway but still hid it just in case.

representation emitter, fluid sac, Ya Śūnyatā Tad Rūpam, blind obsession, holiday, sunshower, bygone days, frivolous jokes, information neutralization, whispers, do not fear, captain of the pequod, and probably more. tl;dr; you're wrong.

Philclair on release did not play like a negative coin ID, sustaining sanity on him was not difficult in the slightest. His sanity loss is only during Waxon Pinon state: which this states quite literally makes him a unholy burn stacker (He can inflict the most burn in a single turn, while capable of inflicting as much burn count as the other top ID's WITHOUT Support Passives) tl;dr you and others dont understand how to properly use an id

​@@ihave2cowsright, because burning through all of your resources and other sinners' sp just to make phillipclair usable is obviously the way he should've been balanced, nevermind the fact that you always had to chain 3 wrath res to even get his passive (which he himself doesn't help much in activating). And if we only count sp healing passives more often than not he was consuming more than he was gaining because you want him to get more than 1 slot to maximize his usage

@@Schiso13 yes. Having trade offs and conditions is good for gameplay. But you won, so enjoy your “haha press winrate”

@@ihave2cows that's putting it lighly, the tradeoff is losing all my sp just so that i can clash properly (without philipclair's passive he clashes about as well as season 1 00 id's) and the condition is that i'm locked out of half of my slots because i want to activate his passive, and if i'm running n faust's passive then i'm forced to chain 3 wrath res and 3 lust res all the time. When you have to go through so much trouble to make a single id usable it's no wonder people were dissapointed, yeah when he got going he was strong but not strong enough to justify having to go through conditions upon conditions to get him there, he was underwhelming, same reason people don't bother with sunshower heathcliff