Sir, your reporting of Super Yacht news and events is amazing. You have earned my utmost respect. We need more people like yourself, who speak and report the truth. Please keep up the channel.
I agree with your comment. I will say as well that I greatly admire the manner and reporting methods and skills of eSysman. I will even say that his approach helps make the subject interesting to me. Being a "small sailboat man" myself, I find super yachts to be ostentatious at best and ghastly at worst and certainly not a subject I would likely explore absent eSysman's excellent presentation skills. By telling the stories behind the story, he reveals the current-day relevance of these absurd vessels.
Vital topics that are important to know for everyone will be voiced on April 22nd at an international online forum *"Global* *crisis.* *There* *is* *a* *way* *out".* Please join.
Wow mate, absolutely packed full of news this one! It must be exhausting trying to keep up with all this stuff. Do you remember the old days, when you used to stroll around a marina on the Côte d’Azur or an Italian port and talk about which boats were visiting. 😄 Who would have thought back then, that a war in Ukraine would affect your channel so much !! You’ve rolled it it well though. I’m really pleased for you that your channel is doing so well
Thanks for your comments. Of course we still will do that kind of content, as and when we are in those parts. But now we have the news to do as well, yes things have changed a lot!
Thermal runaway doesn't occur unless there are faults. And second, if the particular battery cell chemistry is LIFEPO4, thermal runaway doesn't occur at all. (very different to for example the chemistry in Tesla batteries. (these days tesla also have lifepo4 in some cars). Can you find out what exact type of battery chemistry those batteries are?
Your first sentence is correct. So long as there is no external problem. LiFePO4 can have thermal runaway, but at much higher temperatures. Tesla is actually the leader in Li-Ion safety. NASA actually used their thermal system as a starting point when designing Li-Ion batteries for use in space on the ISS. NASA wanted a totally passive system rather than relying on a coolant circuit.
Just wondering, are these really lithium batteries like in a Tesla or Lithium Iron Phosphate (Lifpo4)? This is essential to know. Lifpo4 are super safe and suitable for yachting. I do have these on my little 29ft. The price is ridiculous for Lifpo4 but they last 10 years plus and are much safer.
I agree with many of the posts below about the safety of the batteries. The issues you mention, not being monitored and elevated temperature do not create the risk you suggest. You've used a classic clickbait title for this video which is unfortunate.
It doesn't sound like anyone you spoke to knows much about battery systems. If they have the largest battery bank afloat on a private yacht, it's reasonable to assume they have a modern battery management system. This would include thermal shutdown as well as disabling the batteries should the voltage drop below a certain threshold. The batteries will appear dead at that point but are really in a sort of deep sleep and are reactivated by applying a charge to them. The only way the batteries would require charging is if they are being drained. The parasitic drain from the bms is minimal, and scales favorably as battery pack size increases. On a pack that size, it could sit for a year if there is no load other than the bms itself. And again, if if was drained it would just enter a sleep mode. Thermal runaway of the kind you describe is not a thing on dormant batteries.
Could the quoted monthly cost of keeping Alfa Nero crewed include more than just salaries alone? It's possible they are counting provisions for the crew, fuel for generators, as well as cleaning and maintenance supplies. I wouldn't be surprised if the government has taken out some kind of insurance as well. Those premiums could also contribute to the quoted costs.
Modern lithium battery packs have been built with many safeguards. A ship that is shutdown and not drawing from batteries and not trying to recharge them isn't at much risk within a certain ambiant temperature range. They will gradually lose their charge via chemical reaction, and below a certain poit, they start to be damaged, mostlty in terms of battery capacity instead of fire risk. But eventually, they can start to inflate/burst at which point, big badaboom and Liloo would say.. (the chemicals are stable but when exposed to oxygen, they can self ignite). Ambiant heat can be a problem but if the batteries are below water line, wouldn't such a section of ship remain cool? If they get too hot, can can start to swell and if they burst, then big badaboom. Of course, such concentration of batteries means that if one catches on fire, then runaway situation with heat causing neighbouring ones to follow suit. If salt water comes in, then it will ve a very very bad day due to short circuits. (in such a circumstance, being as discharted as batteries allows would reduce impact). If the departing crew do a proper total shutdown of ship, and a new crew know how to restart it properly, and the time period in betwteen isn,t too long, then I don't think the danger would be that great. But whoever buys the ship would want to have the batteries tested as part of due diligence to find out if being idle for x time had caused damage to their capacity and ifr they are safe to operate,
Remember, the people in charge of your Lithium batteries... you didn't pay because of sanctions. A mad crew may forget to put all safeguards in place before leaving unpaid.
That ship will become a time bomb if there is no crew around to monitor it. He said the ambient temps in Montenegro will make that yacht very, very hot in no time at all.
It is specifically lithium polymer batteries (used most commonly in drones where weight is paramount) that can, and do, catch fire when discharged too far. The dominate lithium chemistry on boats is lithium iron, because it is inherently stable, and will not catch fire from self discharge. The standard way to store them is to disconnect them after a full charge. Then they should be good stored for 6 months to a year without damage.
This can happen more and more. As I mentioned before, more research needs to be done on these batteries because of their issues. And they are dangerous in other ways to the environment. Something for thought. We trade in toxic gases for even more dangerous things like this! We’re not going forward we’re just making the same mistakes over and over.
Oh eSysman great video as usual but those outtakes at the end!😂 😅 Just priceless. Especially amidst all this talk of millions and millions of euros or dollars for yachts. Puts "priceless" in perspective 😊😅❤
@1:12 It looks to be part of the Imperial Fleet. I loved when you referred to that in a video a couple of years ago regarding the management company at the time. Can you remind us which boats belong to the Imperial Fleet, or is that not a thing anymore? Love the content and the length of these videos. Keep up the good work. I don't get my yacht news anywhere else.
Your guy is overstating the case with the lithium battery situation. They do not like staying at full charge. They prefer to be stored at 40-60% of capacity. This is why they tell you to charge your new laptop before you use it and have to run all the updates. In regular use it is best to keep the battery charged between 20-80% unless you plan to use it heavily and want the full capacity. As far as safety goes, each individual cell in the battery can be thought of as a roll of the dice. A 10,000,000-sided die. That’s about the standard failure rate of mass-manufactured cells. A battery that big will have a lot of cells, but not 10 million. Unlike lead-acid batteries, lithium doesn’t lose charge quickly. Less than a percent or two a month. The main concern with letting the battery run low is damaging weaker cells’ capacity if one or more fall below a critical voltage, 2.5v for Li-Ion, 2v for LiFePO4. So, if held at a reasonable storage charge, the main concern for the battery would be keeping an eye on the monetary investment, rather than safety. Twice-daily tracking would be simply to spot a trend in weak cells so that they can be swapped out before they drag down their neighbors. If not kept fully charged near 100% for an extended period of time, I would not worry about thermal runaway or fire.
Oh, and 40 C is nothing for the cells. That’s on the high end of normal operating temperature, like what you would preheat them to if you wanted maximum performance out of them. Thermal runaway temperature is 130-200 C, depending upon the chemistry. This happens when the cell has an internal short from dendritic growth, such as can happen if you keep them at 100% charge all the time, beat them to death regularly, or some external source of heat is applied.
Total bs with the battery scaremongering. There is a battery management system and automatic safety systems. Thermal runaway only happens during incorrect charging or physical damage. High temperatures inside the boat are not high enough to cause thermal runaway.
Let's hope that the shipyard has planned for the removal of the LI batteries. One would think it's cheaper to store them safely than to risk a potential fire. Please keep the bloopers!! I was not expecting that. Too funny!
The battery is going to have a battery management system in place. So long as they are maintained at a good storage voltage, they are probably going to be safer kept onboard. The battery management system will look out for trends in the individual cells that indicate that a cell needs to be taken out of service and replaced. Checking on them once or twice a day is about looking for those trends. That could be done online. The liquid-fueled engines and damage from vermin chewing on cables are far more of a concern.
Luminosity is not in a shipyard but a marina in Tivat, where the amazing disappearing owner sent her to avoid sanctions when she still at Benetti yard when purchased. Luminosity is a beautiful ship, full of cutting edge technology, but seems to be cursed, her first owner never took delivery and the second has abandoned her and is denying ownership, as if this wonderful yacht was a scrap car.
They picked the right area and time of the year to test sails........ the eastern wind comes off the Croatian Coast and in to the Adriatic so fast it whips the water in to the air. It's spectacular.
Luminosity will be very luminous soon. They are not lying about those batteries, they have to be looked after carefully when there are so many so close together. It only needs one to blow and set the rest on fire and once it starts there is no stopping it.
Most likely the batteries will slowly deplete themselves until shutoff by the bms. Very small chance of fire with Lipos in that non charging situation. However heat on board will severely shorten the life of those batteries and obviously will damage them if we are talking about such high temperatures for extended periods of time.
@@zlmdragon. you obviously never walked barefeet across a teak deck in the sun in a warm country... The underwater parts of the hull never get hot, yes. The parts above the water line? Different story...
At minimum IMO you should also have a bosun, a second engineer & a crew chef all on rotation and two stewardesses as a minimum to maintain any large yacht.....regards Jon
I wonder why the designers of M/Y Luminosity chose LiPo batteries instead of LFP. Tradeoffs in each case I'm sure, but eliminating the possibility of thermal runaway would, I hope, be a very high priority for yacht engineers.
Just wanted to add that eSysman's technical info surprises this 25 year IT pro with his accuracy. All media seems to completely bugger up communicating accurate info regarding technical matters. Mainstream and social. I've worked inside many data centers, cages, and closets. And designed and maintained various UPS systems. These systems have many parallels to the type of systems he was reporting regarding the concerns around that huge Li-Ion power bank and the concerns regarding damage to the system and serious safety risks. Dude knows his stuff. 👍
I suspect that CNBC might have some sort of service agreement/subscription-type thing with Reuters that let’s CNBC use whatever Reuters’ photos as long as CNBC keeps their payments to Reuters up-to-date.
Following the channel since 2018. I like the current video's but must say it gets to much alike. Videos made like before covid visiting a harbour filming some yachts and just tell a lot of info about these yachts or how things work was very interesting. Maybe you should do a few again every 2 or 3 weeks. I must say this video had quite some different SUPERYACHTS stories, info and was close to what you did before.
I would expect a super yacht to be using LFP (lithium iron phosphate) batteries. They are safest chemistry and the most common in yachts. They have very little chance of thermal runaway, and that it may happen at 195c and above.
Yeah, totally ill informed clickbait. These type of rack mount batteries are designed to be left unattended and are maintenance free for years. They have automatic protection against over-charge and discharge.
A lot of comments regarding your take on the risk of fire caused by the batteries... Any chance you could expand as they seem quite well informed... keep "em coming mate 👉🇬🇧👈👉❗
Lithium Batteries - It's Great News for the City/Port - Send a crew to Maintain the Batteries while use them as a Power Bank for the Local Grid. It can be Done. and off course - all works added to the Ships Bill... Thanks Mate.
One of the Oligarchs favorite law firms, Dentons of London specializes in keeping sanctioned peoples properties from being seized. They have many ways to circumnavigate the laws and sanctions. Getting around sanctions seems to be working as recent reports say that just in the last year sanctioned Russian billionaires made over a half Trillion dollars. A lot of that is by selling sanctioned oil and rare earth minerals.
Lithium thermal events typically happen when quickly charging or discharging. If the packs are simply left idle and deplete, well an empty lithium pack is not a hazard, you can just toss them in the trash bin at that point w/o risk. A fault could occur on its own, but the battery pack design should be able to isolate it and I would hope an automated firefighting system is on board.
36 toñne of closely packed lithium batteries in a ship hold , left unattended is not something to be taken lightly, with t would only take one to fail,
Unless the batteries are over charged or discharged at a high current, there shouldn't be any problems. I have several LifeP04 batteries in my camper van and I'm not the least bit worried leaving it for 6 months while I'm in the Med.
The scuttlebutt is that these are lithium polymer batteries, which just seems crazy for safety reasons, and why the majority of boat energy storage is LiFePO4.
@@wendygerrish4964 LiFePO4 batteries are commonly known as lithium iron batteries, and are considered to be one of the safest lithium chemistries. There are a lot of different types of batteries that use lithium, and fall under the term "lithium batteries," so they are often confused with each other. They vary a lot in safety, so many people attribute to one lithium chemistry the qualities of another.
🔋Most non-phosphate lithium batteries (the dangerous ones) can comfortably handle ambient active charging temps of around 45˚C, and safe resting temps of 60˚C. LifePo lithium is a safer option - but not by a great margin.
I didn't know there was going to be a quiz ! My pencil point broke ! I didn't have a sharpener ! the sun was in my eyes & I couldn't see the picture clearly ! Time out ! can I get another chance? 😆
The spot the yacht game is a quality move. I have no clue, and I'm very happy you'll be telling me her sexiness's name in a few minutes! Someone is implementing advanced news production techniques to keep the intrigue going. I think you are doing teasers too eh? 😉
Lithium batteries are very stable if you are not charging or discharging them. They can also handle high temperatures in storage. They have low self discharge so they only need a little charging every 6 months or so, if they are not in use. If the crew walks off with everything running, it could be a disaster waiting to happen. If they shut everything down before leaving, that should not be a problem.
Even having the crew walk off with a load running will only risk running the battery down to a low voltage that ruins the cells. At that point it is the monetary value that is at risk. The battery itself will have very little energy in it to cause a problem.
Without insight into how these batteries are integrated and how the tools managing them are configured, I would suggest it's not possible to conclude it's safe to turn them off. The battery system is commonly part of a failsafe system for other critical areas such as hazard/emergency prevention systems, when the main power source isn't available.
@@colbr6733 Assembling a system with that much stored energy would be insanity without a management system overlooking it. It may be integrated into the larger ship systems, but that would be “defense-in-depth“ with the shore power and generators as options.
i've heard descriptions of thermal runaway fires in cars. with the so-much-larger battery pack in that vessel a fire would produce a so-much-larger disaster. which brings us back to my previously-suggested ''bills not paid? tow it out and scuttle it'' risk-mitigation strategy.
This is why more research needs to be conducted on these batteries. NO electrical vehicles should ever be produced or powered without research on them. Very dangerous. And we’re just going to do it just because…
Regarding salaries, when a non marine company that offers benefits such as health insurance or a pension, the company pays significantly more than the actual wages, sometimes twice as much. So when the government reports the amount the crew costs, are they reporting expenses that are part of the payroll budget, but not actual wages?
5 months no pay, and they're still there? or are they waiting till the outstanding pay tops the value of the ship, so they can claim ownership and sell it?
Batteries: i can’t imagine LiIon (NMC, NCA) batteries on a boat. Usually LIFePo4 batteries are used that are not prone to thermal runnaway. The only disadvantage is the slightly higher weight which is not so important on boats than on cars / aircrafts
Al Lithium based batteries have a much lower self discharge than lead acid ones. In a „storage charge“ setting you can leave them 2 years without degrading, if properly cut of from any power consumer.
Wow captain and chief is a better gig than I thought. And I assume that room & board is free while onboard. And yet the merchant marine can't manage a decent salary.
Will those batteries it depends what type of lithium ion battery it is. The safest type of lithium ion battery is lithium ion phosphate, this will not have a thermal run away, but the other more high performance types can. And what you said about always keeping the battery fully charged is exactly the wrong thing to do. The best thing to do for battery health with any type of Lithium ion batteries is to regularly cycle them slowly. So slowly charge and slowly discharge, but not 100% full and not 0% empty just cycle them from 10%-90%.
On the lithium batteries it depends on who made them and what type they are made. Some cars have problems because of all the jostling in vibration making pouches rub together. Pouch Batteries swell when they get heated up. But if they have plenty of room inside their pack so that they're not rubbing each other then that problem goes away. And as long as they have good controlling software for the cooling there is no problem. There is a little bit more to it than that but that's the basic gist.
Most EV batteries have cylindrical or prismatic cells with hard cases. Pouch cells are usually used in quadcopters and the like. Put the battery at a good storage charge, take it offline, and the rest of the equipment on the vessel is more of a risk.
Also those are Lithium Iron. Super stable, you can over heat it in the sun or submerge it in salt water without issue. They don't have the same issues that some batteries have. The downside is that they don't hold as much juice per weight as the other types do; not an issue in a boat where weight isn't as much of an issue as in a Porsche.
@@lienct Yes. If you enough about that boat to know that those are LiFePO4, then they are even less of a worry. To trigger thermal runaway, you would need to put them in a 200 deg C oven.
thermal runaway is when one battery overheats and catches fire it may be the only fundamentally faulty battery but that fire will then overheat other batteries which will then catch fire... that will continue until all the batteries catch fire.
I would guess that all those batteries are well below the waterline and therefore won't overheat if not charged or discharged rapidly. Saying otherwise is somebody trying to stir up trouble.
FYI: Luminosity has roughly ~ 5,200 KWh worth of storage. Cost about $2M, plus lots of AC in the battery room. My Houston home uses about 6,000 KWh each month in the summer, so I'd be able to power my house for a month - for $2M+ worth of storage. :)
The batteries are usually most dangerous at a high state of charge and when the batteries have imperfections or damage. If they keep them charged at a lower state of charge there will be no damage to the batteries and virtually no chance of thermal runaway.
totally true. Run the batteries down to 30% and there is very little danger of thermal runaway, also no damage. Lead-acid batteries would be damaged but if they are talking about thermal runaway, then it's obviously lithium-based. A simple search will educate bylo.
doing the math, $28,000 per week with 52 weeks in the year is $1,456,000 -- dividing that by 12 months, you get $121,333.33 "per month". but with varying lengths of months, if paying per week then the monthly total is truly different for each month based on number of days, but this is factually closer. i personally don't care much, but the guy who complained might want to check his numbers which were somehow higher.
You can't double monthly payments based on a rotation principle as the crew would not have been paid during off time so all they get is the salary the other crew would have made rather than not being paid during off time.
The time off the ship IS PAID TIME OFF, and is to make up for being confined to a ship 24 hours a day while working. The reason for doubling the salary is that you are literally taking away half of their time that they are paid for.
12:00 - 36 tons of Samsung Galaxy levels of explodey fun just waiting to happen. Whatever genius decided to go with Li-Ion and not Li-FePo needs his head checked...
Someone is spouting a load of BS. Lithium batteries don’t pose any such danger unless they’re physically damaged. They can be put into storage mode which extends their longevity even when not being cycled (i.e. long term storage), and their built-in battery management system prevents them from being charged or discharged too quickly and causing overheating. Even basic Lithium battery systems used in RVs and small boats have these features. If an engineering company designed a multi-ton lithium battery system that posed this sort of danger unless it was constantly babysat, they deserve to be fired for incompetence.
What are you even talking about? Things go wrong with electrical systems all the time, thats why there is always a team ready to come to the recue, on land or sea.
I feel you are making some significant assumptions. The batteries have been properly maintained. Local crew may not have the necessary knowledge and training. The batteries actually are put into storage mode. What temperature will they get to while shut down. Remember, it’s not the risks , it’s the consequences.
You don't keep up with news much do you? Never hear of samsung lithium batteries exploding. Or expanding after a couple of years of not being used. Not to mention IBM lithium batteries doing the same. One of the reasons that lithium ion batteries are so dangerous is that yes they can explode even if not being used and sitting on a shelf.
Class D fires involve flammable metals, a fuel that it’s really hard to put out. Specifically, you can’t put it out with water. Best you can do is cool it / insulate it until it burns out by itself. You definitely want to monitor this type of installation.
The lithium batteries would just slowly degrade especially if there is some power drawn. I don’t see a risk of fire as this normally happens exactly in opposite situations: top charge, high current draw or mechanical stress. They may just die… who cares? What’s sad is that one could have built hundreds or thousands of small electric cars with these. Or some other useful things.
i enjoy your account so much.. and i think - i always will - however i really hope the topic 'alfa nero' will be behind us soon .. i appreciate how u are trying to make this news different every time :)
Long term storage of old batteries from electric cars and many other products in a safe place is something nobody is really thinking of. It will be interesting one a couple blow up in a junkyard and it takes forever to put out.
If you feel a reference for Lithium battery issues might be beneficial, suggest the viewers study the Boeing aircraft of late and their Lithium battery fires.
Even on minimal crew any boat needs fuel and lube oil by the ton and food for the crew who will not be on a prison menu, even fresh drinking water has to be paid for by reverse osmosis or as a mains metered supply. In many yachting places the weather will dictate that heating or cooling (by electricity) is needed. Never discount the waste disposal cost! Having a basic waste removal in port must incur significant costs.
