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I think the Isle of Dogs declaration of independence deserves a video in its own right! Having done some light reading on it, it's quite a fascinating (and highly amusing) story!
@@JagoHazzard And a very good one, too. I'm struck by the way there was a an opposition movement, who seem to have actually acted as part of the whole drama. And I'm also glad you mentioned _Passport to Pimlico_; it's a long time since I saw it, and I don't remember the details, but my general recollection is of something delightful, and not patronising to the working class, which could happen in the English* media in those days. * Yes I mean English, deliberately excluding Welsh and Scottish.
@@highpath4776 There was good and sensible logic for Not joining the EEC (and later EU), though whether it was better than the reasons to join or not is a different matter. The same can't at all be said for leaving again.
@@laurencefraser in fact it was reasonable to join the EEC and not the EU, but no one gave us the choice. That should not have prevented it, after all Switzerland has connections and isn't in it.
Very true for MOST of the former British Empire... A T-rump loving, xenophobic fascist with ties to Canada's far far right is leading the Conservatives right now and have a 20% lead on Trudeau, whom I'm no fan of but considering the alternative... So it's still an issue throughout the Anglosphere, believe me...
It may well be but it may depend on your state of mind. Many, many Moons ago I lived in Belsize Park which was then Bedsit Land. On Haverstock Hill was and I'm told still is one of those weird round bunker things that got themselves built on the Tube network during The War. Rumour in the area at the time was that it was some kind of Nuclear Bunker but the Acid Heads amongst us were, at least while temporarily unsane, convinced that it was variously some kind of Time Machine, Aliens (including Flying Saucers) or a Gateway To Another Universe amongst other things.
I think it was the intention that it would have had services for the 2012 Olympics. As my mother used to say "The Road to hell is paved with good intentions"
very well informed, i often go to the Mitchell library in Glasgow and look at the original blueprints for central and compare to what it is now , vastly different as you could imagine
It was in the plan, but it's one of the first things the current government cancelled when the costs began to overrun. I believe the idea was to have a chord between HS1 and HS2 that would run over the unused pair of tracks east of Camden Road thus skipping central London entirely for regional trains to Europe.
@@EmyrDerfel Not necessarily. Eurostar goes to Paris, Lille, Brussels and Amsterdam. They just all have to have their own passport control. So you'd have to have that at Birmingham/Manchester stations too, for trains that would be headed for Europe. Of course Schengen would make this much much easier.
@@ijmadbut then what would you do for people not going to Europe? You can say don't go through passport control but then some people going to mainland Europe would just go through the UK entrance.
@@siyuanhuo7301 trains depart from separate platforms with different security arrangements, but just run on to the same line. Already happens at St Pancras with the HS1 trains to Kent.
I like to think to myself that I'll find Jago in the wild one day when going for a day out in London. 😆 We have yet to see your model railway layout as well 🤔. A fantastic video like always.
Get the impression the White City International proposal had potential as a through station and from the Ianvisits Unbuilt London article, the suggested site likely would have not completely butterflied away Westfield White City of some form from being built thereby making it similar to Stratford International in that sense. Combined with a HS2-HS1 through link between OOC-Stratford International (as in the route in case of OOC not stop) as well as HS4Air and it would provided a trio of high-speed routes towards a Regional Eurostar network.
My guess/assumption is that the line to the coast they envisaged was not the High-Speed line we know today but an express line of perhaps 125mph tops, perhaps not even that. More like the first version we had from Waterloo via Tonbridge. In fact that line would have probably connected easily to a station at White City instead of Waterloo. Perhaps coming in that route was the long term plan anyway and not the stop-gap it was painted at the time. Anyone know?
Somewhat ironic that Broadstreet was ruled out because the route was "too circuitous" only to have St Pancras chosen instead. I personally think its suboptimal to go to a Northern terminus to go south but I do wonder what would have become of St Pancras had it not been chosen (eventually). I suppose they could have drained the docks and dug it out to give it loads of room for new infrastructure. So might not have been a bad choice. I seem to remember that Olympia had lots of disused platforms at one time. It was a London Terminus that never was. On the other hand, if it could have been made to work (not that I'd have liked to see the exhibition space demolished), it might also have proved useful for HS2 giving the potential of through trains to the continent (and lots of discomfort to the incontinent). Somehow, I always get the feeling that when Europe is concerned, our efforts to connect and have better relationships with our neighbours have always been half-hearted. Nothing was going to work but we might bodge something together.
Nothing wrong with the continent other than the damm foreigners. The French were bad enough but once the Balkans fell and the hoards of the Islamic Persian Empire were able to reach Dover it all got a bit out of hand.
Would love to see if had a similar document for Paris and if so what it said… like the while channel tunnel it would be a fascinating insight into the similarities and differences between such near neighbours 😊
I worked for a certain broadcaster in White City in the late 1970s and you've now reminded me of all the talk there was back then that there was going to be an international rail terminal over the road. Sadly of course it never happened but the railway history of the area always fascinated me with the various closed stations, the line that used to connect the Acton-Northolt line to the West London line, the Dimco buildings, the LT railway training centre, the Central Line sidings (now buried underneath Westfield) plus of course the covered walkway to the British Empire Exhibition site. All gone now of course. I think it needs a video (or have you done one!?)
How fascinating. I would only have had to change once for Boulevard St Michel. Just from Gare du Nord to the metro. As it was, I had to get from Clapham Junction to Waterloo. Oh, the difficulty.
These are my favourite kinds of videos on this channel. The speculative what "London might have become" sort. Imagine if the terminus had been where Canary Wharf is now? What would have happened to the rest of the area? Would a new financial district have been built but elsewhere? Might that elsewhere eventually have been the redevelopment of Paddington Basin and so on.
I think yes, because the station wouldn't take up that much space relatively speaking, and being next door to the Eurostar station would be an attraction if you want to set up an office there, just like the development at the back of Kings Cross.
Did the 'Tunnel link' have to have a terminal station? Think along the lines of Zurich or Schipol Airports. The rail lines go right through. That style of station would have no need for ancillary track work. All the servicing areas could be miles away. I mean Euston's WCML services are maintained at Wembley and Overground is serviced at Willesden. Further, the route out to the service area could also be the route to the rest of the UK.
In hindsight probably the best location would’ve been in or around Canary Wharf, with its Crossrail and jubilee line links. But St Pancras works pretty well. Another very informative video. Thanks Jago
I like the idea of redeveloping the Bricklayers Arms site. It was still available up to the 1990s I think and would have certainly encouraged the extension of the Fleet Line. London's Olympic bid may have been successful years earlier and the Surrey Docks, Isle of Dogs and Greenwich Peninsula would have found a different use as the Olympic park.
@@john_something_or_other Shopping centres full of Chavs and screaming kids mate. Not good for your street cred in London if you were spotted in there.. 😂
9:10 All of these proposals seem vaguely plausible but this tiny detail stood out to me as being quite a leap. A bridge across the Thames to the North London line, from Surrey Docks? Wasn't there already a tunnel in the form of the East London line? If there was a bridge where would it have connected the North London line? Are we talking somewhere on the bit toward North Woolwich quite a bit east of Surrey Docks?
HA, I worked on both the Fleet Line and the original Channel Tunnel in 1974 (no TBMs) before it was abandoned, and it all sure brings back memories. I was an 18yo digger and grafter saving for University, not Diversity. In those days all we really cared about were bacon and egg sandwiches and cash into the hand. Yep, I did eventually graduate as an Engineer, and ended up in the Transport Sector and worked for TfL on Traffic SIgnal Systems. But enough about me, London was a very different place in 1974 and in some ways a lot better than today. The eventual choice of St. Pancras and the engineering of HS1 were wonderful achievements.
I remember the trains in 1974. Terrible experiences. My family had a reason to be in Scotland and we went by overnight train. Dirty, noisy, disgusting - the trains, the stations, everything was run down, dirty, the employees surly, it was just awful. British Rail cafes were utterly horrible places. Years later I asked my mother (she made the arrangements) why she'd subjected us to that train that when we could have taken, you know, an airplane (ultimate destination was Lerwick - we took a boat between Aberdeen and the Shetlands. That was also dirty, run down, etc.) "Oh, I thought it would be fun for you boys!" Honest to god, I hated every moment of it.
@@cv990a4 No rose tinted spectacles for you then, but I accept your view, as it was a dirty run down system and the amount of litter on the tracks at stations was incomprehensible. There were good times too though for me such as getting pissed in the Red Lion, Archway and chasing a few birds!
There's a movement to re-nationalise the train operating companies. I ponder it and think it might not be a bad idea - until I see the name of the movement - "Bring back British Rail" and I think oh dear God, no. But then the era of the HST 125 was fantastic, so much better than what went before.
7:00 The coal yard at Olympia was considered as a site for an international station or yard/service/repair centre for the trains when the channel tunnel was being built (I was delivering in the area at the time when that was happening - it greatly upset a lot of people)
Interesting video jago I love how I was watching your Stafford international video when you uploaded this I personally think they should rename stratford international as Westfields station
I still think the best choice would have been Isle of Dogs/Canary Wharf because of what it eventually developed into. I think with the train it probably would have ended up just the same as London's = of La Defense but with better global rail links instead of a bizarre patchwork of options it now has that make it both really well linked to the city yet also still really isolated. I guess a supreme choice to set and film 28 Weeks Later there after all!
I still think that Victoria might have worked, if it had been rebuilt as proposed...but having used St Pancras several times for my jaunts to Paris, it works extremely well, far better than the disaster that is Gare Du Nord for Eurostar passengers! Another good 'un, Jago, keep em coming!
Holborn viaduct as a 12th candidate site is fascinating, but the station was way too short for international trains; it was possibly the shortest of the main-line termini in London. To accept something Eurostar-like, the station would have to be extended most of the the way out to the site of Ludgate Hill, and then the viaduct would need widening, so much purchase of expensive land. And the bank down to Snow Hill would have disappeared in the process.
Ludgate Hill (Snow Hill) was still earmarked for the City International station in a later scheme when still a bombsite carpark. Gave through services to the east & west coast mainlines for the regionals, sleepers via Olympia.
perhaps it's a little selfish of me, having only lived in the UK for a year now, but I'm glad there was no international rail terminus built in the 1970s. If we're being honest with ourselves, it would've been a complete eyesore, and arriving in London via St Pancras is always awe-inspiring by contrast
I wonder if they could have used two London terminals for the Eurostar. Waterloo was so much easier with so many trains coming in from the South and South West even if that did mean a change at Clapham Junction. Now you have to get your luggage either on buses or the underground. Were there ever plans to have these trains depart from other points (and undertaking clearances) including calling at other stations on route to the tunnel?
Yes tgere were - hence tghe nanmes of Strratford, International, Ebbsfleet International and Ashford International stations. There were also plans to run International trains beyond London to Edinburgh, Cardiff, Manchester etc. (No chages to clearances needed - the original Eurostar trains were designed to run on normal UK lines with UK clearances, and indeed did so until HS1 was built.
My vote would've gone to Kensington Olympia, where it could easily link up with Motorail and the wider BR network, facilitating North of London services. And in my fantasy world, there's be no need for customs or immigration facilities because the UK would be members of Schengen...
If Olympoa exhibition centre had gone would Earls Court have closed. Maybe it would have closed earlier though, to make way for some actual redevelopment rather than staying an open site for so long.
I'm amazed that still nothing has happened with Bishopsgate. It's a massive hole in a very developed area. I know there are plans for it, but it's just amazing it's remained untouched for so long.
@@kbtred51 I know that station exists, but there's still a massive abandoned area just behind it that you can't see from the street. Look on Google Maps.
I feel quite the opposite. Having an HSR station below 1 Canada Square would have probably stunted or eliminated the need for London City Airport.. But a La Defense/Hudson Yards style development with skyscrapers was always going to happen in London whether you like 'em or not!
Suggestion: your videos often mention goods depots but never go into detail. How about a video focusing on how a goods depot works and the trains that use them.
You need to start to build Trough-Stations instead of Pocket Stations: (I'm not english, I don't know the proper Terms. I'll explain what I mean with that: Our biggest Station here in Switzerland, the Zürich Mainstation, had exactly that Problem of being a Pocketstation, where Trains have to go the Way back out as they came in, which resulted in Congestion and unability to improve. So they dug a Troughstation out underneath it, where the Trains coming from West enter the Tunnel way ahead of Zürich Mainstation and can then just continue straight ahead under the City, to emerge out of the Tunnel outside the Center, back onto the existing Line towards the East. They skip now reversing out and looping around much of the City, which freed up a huge batch of Timeslots and Rails for the overall Traintraffic to improve. With this new Deeplevel Troughstation, Zürich Mainstation hosts now 3 Undergroundstations on 2 Levels and one huge integrated Shoppingmall besides the original Pocketstation on the Surface, all in one Building... If a small Country of 8M People can do such complex and costly stuff, surely it can't be that hard for a Nation of 67M?🤔🤔🤔
You may not be English, sir, but you hit the nail on the head! Lots of solutions in that report without seeming to identify the basic problem. Not everyone through the Tunnel actually wants to go to London! I would venture to suggest that a majority of Tunnel travellers want to go anywhere BUT London! Just think what might have been if only this report and HS2 were joined up!
@@LesD9 Thanks. Yes, whilst Zürich is our biggest and one of the most important, there are dozens of Trains/hr and 10'000's of Passengers daily that only use it as another Stoppingpoint along the Route. I can imagine it being even more so in London! Throughstations can handle alot more Trains in shorter Time than Pocketstations, because Trains don't have to crossover eachother and against the Traffic as much in the Approach... Also improving Traffic in Pocketstations are the Push/Pull Combinations, that eliminate the need to shunt the Loco from one End to the other as there's a "Controlcar" at the other End and the increasingly use of Loco-less units (is it EMU in english?) But I think they surely are Standard in England too.
@@LesD9 Before I started watching Jago's channel I never knew that the plural of Terminus is Termini. We have so few of them in Germany, I never talked about several in the same sentence. Where Termini do exist however, they have become a problem. Frankfurt and Stuttgart recently both had to build long, expensive and controversial tunnels under the city to allow HS trains to come out the other side instead of just terminating. The same would probably happen in London, should the Paris - Edinburgh connection ever happen. To insist on building Termini probably just delays that development and renders it more expensive when it happens eventually.
@@LesD9 Very true including most Londoners who do not want the cost of going to London and then out again. Why not have a stop at dartford so we can hop off there and get on the local train home.
it always did amuse me that when it was eventually built, the London Terminal was a Waterloo. Someone was having a "dig" with that choice ! Yes, it's since been moved but Waterloo was the terminal for something around 11 years ! I guess it could have been worse, they could have put a stop at Waterloo, continued on to a new station at Trafalgar Square and had a new terminus at Maida Vale. I'll admit Maida Vale is a bit of a "left field" choice for a terminus, just look up how it got it's name , I'm guessing you already know Hugo ! . See, the plan is , might as well get in as many digs as possible !!!!!
Broad Street was already on its last legs by the 1970s and it would have been no big deal to do away with or divert the Richmond service to accommodate Channel Tunnel trains. It would have been an ideal City terminus but in the 20th century the City was kind of empty on a Sunday; most of its businesses catered to 9-5 weekday office workers. I remember walking through the City regularly on a Sunday as a teenager in the early 90s and there was hardly anything there and nothing open. St Pancras isn't really central London either; it's a walk from the top end of Tottenham Court Road, but it's closer to the West End than Broad Street is.
Is the city ay different today. Broad street could have been an excelent terminal as West cost services could also have come there via the NLL and it would have been a better re-development that what actually happened.
To this American, the wealth of disused, derelict or otherwise under-utilized railroad infrastructure in and around London is just amazing. And that a great deal of it is reused, repurposed and reimagined for the greater good makes me smile.
Hi @jago, off-topic on this video I know so apols. I'm still working through all your videos so don't know if you've covered the subject of "working men's fares" in any detail. I know you've mentioned them occasionally, but would be interesting to know when they started, how a person would be eligible, who subsidised them, when did they stop being a thing, were they too popular, not popular enough, all the usual questions you answer so well!
I don't know if an urban myth but heard that Waterloo was chosen because some senior politicians wanted to remind all french arrivals of a certain historical event :)
If they knew then about the future docklands railway the choice may have been different , perhaps the terminal may have been built south of the river with connections into London by a Docklands type of rail connections.
You made a video briefly discussing the plans to build a rail terminus at the Surrey Docks back in the 1970s? You must have been an early adopter of RU-vid, Jago. Is that video #1 in your back catalogue ?
It is my recollection that quite a bit of engineering design was completed into Olympia - but a wee bit later maybe 1973/4. Maybe there was some revived hope that something would happen.
Heh, “this one goes to eleven”. Speaking of international lines, I wonder: have there ever been plans to connect Scotland with Northern Ireland, given that the strait near Belfast is only marginally wider than the one at Dover? Or have the cliffs and other natural features always prevented a railway line from even reaching the coast? (I assume a Wales and Ireland connection has always been out of the question.)
The bit of Scotland nearest Northern Ireland is extremely remote, so any link across the St georges Channel would have to go a lot further to get anywhere people actually want to go. And the geology of the Channel is much more challenging. Moreover, such a link would never generate as much traffic as the one across the English Channel - the popukationj of the entire island of Ireland is less than 10% of that of Great Britain. Finally, a rail link would need some re-engineering of the railways on one side or the oithger, as they use different track gauges.
Westfield could still have happened because the land for the White City terminal was north of the current H&C line, and Westfield is almost entirely south. The area is still largely undeveloped, although the new(ish) Wood Lane station is more or less where it was on the 1970s plan. That aside - some of the alternatives had potential. I for one am sad that European visitors don't arrive at Bricklayers Arms International.
Having grown up in Croydon in the 70's, one couldn't move for all the trains across the West London Line... Not! Remember the speed limit over the bridge across the Thames in Battersea was 15 mph even after they had started running trains from Brighton to Manchester Piccadilly around 1980 using that route..
I still don’t know why that Stratford International is bigger than Stratford Regional station and Stratford International only has Southeastern Highspeed and Eurostar trains pass through at high speed. Whilst at Stratford it gets so busy every time and it gets so overcrowded.
The pub is named after a collier, which used to berth next to it in the eighteenth century. Unfortunately, that only defers the question to "Why call a boat _The Prospect of Whitby_ ?", and the answer to that is lost to history.
The connection is with James Cook, who came from Yorkshire on a boat that set sail from Whitby. He is widely associated with Whitby even though he's from nearby Middlesbrough. The boat that he came to London on from Whitby was moored near this pub and he lived and worked nearby (there's a plaque on a building nearby on The Highway marking this).
jago hazzard i got a question why is the lner , avanti and gwr not considered international because they go into different continential countries in great britain like scotland and wales
I am guessing the reason why the first cross channel rail link Eurostar was originally at Waterloo because there was more space for development. Correct?
Victoria Central London? 🤪. My trains go there… but increasingly, and preferably, I don’t! London Bridge (or anywhere on Thameslink) or Waterloo if I can afford it 😢. The decline of Victoria St., the new shopping mall, and that a certain King hogs much of the real estate. Then, trying to get a reasonably priced beer or meal in Belgravia…
Local urban legend states that in the early 70s,the canopy at Clapham Jct's platform 17 was cut back to its present length to accommodate the larger trains headed to the Continent via the planned Channel Tunnel....truth or fiction?
Of course this didn’t work. As planners of that time had forgotten to ask one key question which is: What would Charles Yerkes, with his infinite wisdom, do?
IMHO having the station in the current Canary Wharf area would at worst kill of London City Airport but otherwise it would thrive like today if not more so
