I think people in the comments are missing the point. He's saying as a runner, just because you get a better time from a new trick being discovered, doesn't mean you should be happy with that time. If you find a new trick that should save 30 seconds, and then beat your old time by only 5 seconds, that means the run is unoptimized, which to the runner, means it's worse, even if it's faster by comparison. From an outside perspective, the run is faster, which means it's better. From the runners perspective, it's an unoptimized, poorly executed run, resulting in dissatisfaction.
I see people are still missing my point. Obviously the only objective way to rank speedruns is to rank them by time, where lower time is better. If you watch the video you can notice I never argue against this. The point is that a lower time doesn't mean that the speedrun overall is as OPTIMIZED, just because the time is lower. Let's say an F2 driver (slower car) completes a lap in 1:00, hitting all the corners perfectly. An F1 driver (faster car) completes the same lap in 0:59, but misses all the corners. The F1 time is lower, and on the leaderboard it would rank higher. But everybody can understand that it would be silly to say that the lap was better overall, because it wasn't as optimized.
Unfortunately any game where any ammount of RNG is involved will always have this problem, part of the reason I can't stand watching runs on games with luck and chance, getting lucky doesn't interest me
When you say the only way to rank speedruns is by time, what does the ranking mean in this context? We fundamentally rank things because we ultimately want to know which thing is better. Just because your particular chosen path to get to the destination is incredibly optimized (with fewest turns or keystrokes, whatever) doesn't necessarily make it the best path because ultimately we decide which path is best by how much time it takes to complete it. Please correct me if I'm thinking about this wrong.
@@RuthlessPaba It means that we can't measure speedruns by any other means than measuring time, but because a ranking must be objective, and objectively, a speedrun is better the less time it takes to complete it, but as a speed runner, just like any sportsman would, you have to be satisfied with the results. There's no point in beating a world record by 20 seconds with a new shortcut if you can beat it by 1 minute and 20 seconds just by optimizing that new shortcut. Just think of it as "It's obvious i'm gonna beat my old WR with this new shortcut if it's objectively faster no matter what you do". Like, if you find a shortcut that literally skips an entire portion of a level that previously took 4-5 minutes even in a perfectly TAS-optimized run (like the wraith shortcut in TnR), but you beat your record on that segment by only 2 minutes because you died thrice trying it and failed another two times, the run is garbage because you didn't get even close to saving the promised 5 minutes, even if you did a WR by 2 minutes. it just doesn't feel good to beat a WR with a run full of mistakes and/or rigged bullshit just because the new path is just that much shorter. Hope I explained myself correctly. English is not my main language, so I screw up often.
What Garish is saying is that: An optimized speed run that uses a longer path and is therefore longer duration is a better run than a shorter-duration speedrun that uses a shorter path and is not optimized (full of mistakes).
Right, except this argument ignores the difficulty of routes, which I think is a determining factor too. If a new strait means I could save a minute, but I lose 40 seconds of that due to the increased mistakes from the difficulty, I'd still deem that a better speedrun. I've not only achieved a better time, but managed to pull off a harder route, with room for improvement. If the purpose of speedrunning was to get the best quality speedrun, you'd stick to the same over practised route.
The goal of speedrunning is of course to get the fastest time possible for whatever game or category you're running, but the argument is looking more into which speedruns are more optimized and why a faster time with a new strat isn't necessarily a "better" run than a slower time depending on what metric you're using to compare the runs. You do raise a good point though, not every route or strat makes things easier. Some strats can cut a significant portion but be a bitch to pull off, let alone optimize, so being able to land it in an actual run in a decent manner can make that faster time feel "better" than a slower run, even if it isn't as optimized. So yeah the video doesn't quite address that nuance, but I think it's meant to be more of a general argument than one that addresses all the nuances
To all the people who can’t understand where Garish is coming from, go do speedruns yourself, and see how you feel when you take a new route that saves you a minute, but you lost 40 seconds of that minute because the run wasn’t optimized. Yes, you still saved 20 seconds, but you could’ve saved 60.
You can save all the time in the world but until you can.... let's say.... get a certain wall glitch to work on the very first attempt it's just gonna annoy your sense of obsession. It's like getting your dive wrong in front of a board of athletic judges!
I think many people in here couldn't handle seeing a SEEMINGLY controversial statement (title) and receiving an demeaning explanation at the same time. Personally, I clicked on the video with that same extremely skeptic attitude, but you explained pretty well. :) But if I wasn't familiar with you, I would have thought you seemed upset that someone out there is beating you or something. I bet that's the conclusion many people are making.
I mean, you say that as you're OOB @ 2:20, which was discovered and used to create a new route that you use. That's why there's things like No Major Glitches and Glitchless and Any% and As Intended. Also usually if someone discovers a new shortcut, everyone is going to start using it because the goal is to beat the game in the least amount of time possible. So long as it doesn't include unrealistic RNG that kills the run, there's no reason why every player wouldn't start using that shortcut as the norm and consider the old route as a waste of time. Also there's nothing wrong with being a little disappointed with a run that doesn't beat your PB because that's something you put effort and care into, but I wouldn't be disappointed if my 3 hour run was beaten by someone who managed to drop to the bottom of Silent Cartographer.
new routes are less optimized than old ones. you can be sloppy on new routes and still save time over old ones. he's not complaining about developing new routes, he's stating that he won't be happy until he can optimize the new route for its actual time-save, as that would be the level that gets reached anyway eventually. it's kind of the mission of the speedrunner to optimize their route and find new routes, not exactly to get a special number, as playing for WR every time is just unreasonable and frustrating
That logic doesn't apply in a SPEEDRUN. Sure, I won't be happy because my jogging route gets cut by 1 minute but how does that apply to speedrunning? Your speedrunning gets faster time and you're likely to get new personal best
He's saying that getting a PB because you used a new route isn't enjoyable if you make mistakes in that run. The time on the clock doesn't really matter, it's how optimized your run is.
This is such broken logic. Faster time = objectively better speedrun. Your emotions and not being happy about it has no bearing on the fact that a lower time is the better time.
In this case it just means a better route. If you cut a racing track in half, it doesn't mean that you just became a better driver since your time is faster.
if youre trying to get a kill record a team deathmatch and get 50 kills in a match by being a badass, it will feel better than getting a kill record by camping entirely or spamming cheap strats. sure, you got a new pb, but at what cost? eventually the camping/grenade strat may become ingrained and now all your pbs are measured in that context, however. but until said strat becomes optimized itself, it wont feel close to as good as the previous one
Lol his emotions and happiness is the entire point dude - this is a hobby he does for fun and he's explaining to us how beating is time isn't what makes him happy and it wouldn't make sense to him to just constantly chase a lower time without context. This isn't science it's video games you play for fun and if you're not having fun that's all that matters
That's kind of why I don't really like any% runs anymore. Instead of trying to master a section or a level and get really good at the combat, people just look for literally anything and everything they can do to skip those sections by either despawning enemies, or bumping out of the map. Sure those tricks are cool to see the first 3 times, but then it's just like, yeah okay we get it. At a certain point, it's like you're not even playing the game anymore. For example, the TB bump is cool and all, but it's just nowhere near as impressive as seeing someone who is really good at the level, actually play and fight through the level normally. That's why I really wish haloruns would add different categories to incentivise people to actually play the game differently. It's more interesting for viewers, by the sounds of it from people like rocats and cryphon, it's more fun for the runner, it'd probably bring in a lot more people that get turned off from speedrunning because of all the tricks they'd have to master. It would just be better for the entire community tbh
I agree. This extends beyond Halo speed runs and is applicable to other games as well. Have you seen an any% speed run of Sid 6? People exploit this glitch in the game related to the civics tree (I think, I could be wrong), but they end up beating the game in like a minute or so. It’s really boring to watch as a speed runner myself, so it’s probably even more boring for those outside the community.
I love you Garish but this is very silly. The nature of a speedrun is to complete a game or level in the least amount of time possible, by any means necessary (according the to category). The time is just as arbitrary (honestly it is definitely less arbitrary) than whatever other measures of quality you put to a run. In a team deathmatch or regular playthrough you have a point, but a speedrun is meant to lower time and lower time only. A new route opening up and cutting the run in half is good for the speedrun, and that run with the new lower time is a better run than the very refined old route. Whether its fun or not, or youre happy with it is whatever, up to you, but that isnt a commentary on the quality of a speedrun, its a commentary on skill level if anything.
I agree his logic is a little broken but honestly that logic is the key mindset for people who are the greatest at what they do. He never is happy with times so Im not surprised he made this video lol
Your missing the point entirely. The goal of a speedrun is to beat the game as fast as possible. But running is not enjoyable because you want a faster time. It's enjoyable when you optimize the run and make less and less mistakes. At the end having a faster time doesn't mean anything, the true goal of a runner (not a speedrun) is trying to make less mistakes than other people and yourself, play better and better.
I love your vids man but I just don't really get what your saying. The time is the objective measure that we all agreed when speedrunning is what ultimately matters. In other words if you came up with a ridiculously shorter route but it's extremely difficult to complete and therefore requires so many repeat attempts that it ultimately does NOT save time, then the route isn't really that much better is it? No one would care about your speedrun and speedrun strats if they didn't save time.
It's not about the viewers it's about the runner. A runner should find enjoyement from perfectioning and making a run with as less mistakes as possible, so even when you beat your personal best by using a new route, you are not gonna be happy if you made mistakes. At the end the time on the clock doesn't actually matter, what matters is optimizing a run.
@@WaveOfDestiny I get your point. I'm not really talking about the mindset of a speedrunner just about why time matters in a speedrun . But what I disagree with is when you say that what matters is optimizing a run: ok what does optimization mean in this context? Doing it in less time. This ultimately goes hand in hand with making less mistakes and getting a smoother run. The reduced time is the consequence, but ultimately if we're being honest that's really what brings you real recognition.
@@RuthlessPaba if you are okay with running your shortcut slowly, eventually people are going to find it and take it faster than you. it's not good enough to run a new route and start congratulating yourself before it gets optimized
@@thatcityboy73 Ahh I see, I agree. The video should've been titled "Why lower time doesn't necessarily equal a better speedrun" But I'm just nitpicking at this point.
You are just afraid that Cambid will beat your time with the new routes,so you want to have an already served excuse to exist about that achievement. You can also use the shortcuts found thoughout the years. Its not F1 and F2 cars,we are all F1,we can all use the same strategy and the one who optimises it the best,will have the lowest time
if we are racing from one point in town to another, it doesn't matter how flawless you drive route A if route B is much shorter. car B wins the race but the actual technique was less relevant than the route. not an excuse but an explanation
@@thatcityboy73 I agree,but my point is that noone has to drive route A. Route B is available for everyone,so thats why only time matters. If he was restricted and could only use route A,then his point would be legit,but since he is not,all these are excuses for me
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