One thing these Munro videos teach us beyond covering the topic at hand is that we see what a powerful staff Munro has. These engineers aren't fooling around. They are smart and they know their stuff. Sandy should be proud of the organization he has built.
I used to think Tesla's motor was the most advanced over any other but this is an eye opener. I went back to see Lucid's version and really appreciate them on another level now.
@@MegaWildernessand how much volume is tesla at vs. lucid Anyone can make an amazing product. Can you do it at scale and speed to actual do what you are in business for. Making money. Obviously a lucid should be better then tesla. It’s a low volume high priced product. I’ve never compared McDonald’s to a steak house..
Tesla has a history of iterative refinements, as they find ways to design-out cost, while improving performance. Since imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I wouldn't be surprised to see Tesla adopt some of the clever motor design improvements now being pioneered by others, as Tesla continues to demonstrate it's mastery of volume production, at rates others can only dream about.
I don't get it: why is it advantageous to have a small differential inside the motor and then have two huge planetary reductions, one on each side, in contrast with a single differential directly connected to drive shafts? The Lucid solution seems much heavier! What am I missing?
@@ptviwatcher re: "I don't get it..." no worries you're not alone, for you (and a whole lot of others right here in the comment section) also "don't get it". see with Lucid, you're dealing with "legit Automotive Engineers" not a faker or fraud who simply "pretends" to be an Automotive Engineer (but isn't one).
@@wolfgangpreier9160 Please. They are making the $87K one, but are limited on the steel roofs for it, supposedly. I wonder whether they'll free up more frunk space with that one, as it's RWD. Remember when Tesla still seemed to care and offered smaller battery RWD Model S for people who don't need the traction, power and acceleration, but wanted a spaceous representable EV? My main gripe: no wagon. At that price point, say $89K, a wagon with 669 hp to the rear wheels, that's be IIIITTT.
@@mrm1885 I believe the thinking is probably that these things are so reliable and self contained - much lower operating temperatures vs ICE, so easier to pull off - that servicing seems like a pretty niche need for them, they can just be easily replaced and recycled after a million miles instead, at which point addressing any of the other potential points of failure as well due to wear and tear. We'll see I guess, there are only a handful of Teslas that hit this many miles - and are based on their older platforms.
@@mattbrew11 This is not an ICE design, the constraints are vastly different, so best leave those old assumptions at the door and start fresh. EV motors can be highly reliable self contained units because of vast difference in moving part counts (~20 vs ~2000) as well as operating temperatures (~50 Celcius vs ~5000 Celcius) for example. There's also the fact the Tesla's designing these motors for their own internal use - upcoming robotaxi - while others design products with planned obsolescence in mind, so two vastly different design mindsets at play.
Awesome to see some innovation taking place in another manufacturer, as opposed to just Tesla. Granted this car is wildly expensive so one would hope to see innovation, but clearly they put a lot of work into this.
@@carholic-sz3qv Have you seen standard automotive manufacturing? Innovation in the space moves at a snails pace, and often model year updates are more cosmetic than anything. Much of what the OEM's have been producing in EV's is cobbled together from existing parts, etc. Just saying it's nice to see other manufacturers innovating and making purpose built technology. No one required you to be a dick.
You done shattered the myth of the number of moving parts in an EV. I always thought it was a bit suspect. Amazing engineering. Engineers, like nurses are under-appreciated. Y'all do amazing work, as do the folks at all these companies.
I have a Lucid Air Touring and trust me, Once you go Lucid you cannot go to any other EV anytime soon. The driving dynamics, Performance and Luxurry, It's really a game changer
I got my Air GT just over a year ago. Not one service issue. The driving dynamics are phenomenal. I think the single motor Pure will be fantastic with that RWD feeling, but i hear that most people are ordering AWD.
@@Miata822 Did you ever test drove or owned a Tesla? Just curious to know if you have experienced a Tesla. Asking because most Tesla fanboys sound like Tesla is the best EV ever. But your comment certainly makes me question that claim that I here often everywhere.
Amazing the progress in these electric motors, I naively thought electric motors were a mature technology so all manufacturers would have very similar designs
Automobiles are a wholly unique use-case for electric motors. Electric motors that run continuously at a fixed speed are a mature technology going back some 100 years. Short duration variable-speed electric motors like in hand-held power tools are also fairly mature, although continually improving rare earth magnets has lead to some dramatic improvements in size and power output for those in recent years. But EVs are a really bizarre use-case. The motors have to operate for long durations at a wide range of speeds and with high torque at all speeds. I suspect going forwards we will see many new improvements. Especially as EVe diversify into more segments. That said, the motors themselves ARE very similar from most manufacturers, but the rest of the drive train is VERY different.
It's not far from what you expected, difficult to improve a motor when they're at 95% efficiency. The changes are mostly with the placement of the differential and gearboxes
I bet there are some engineers at Lucid that are thrilled to have their work admired by your team. It must be rare. Cory, it’s very nice to see you sporting that watch! When we spoke about watches after I tracked you guys down for dinner in San Luis Obispo last year you mentioned you had a few in mind. A fitting reward and well deserved. Hope to see you back in SLO this summer.
Its funny, I actually came up with a motor concept like this (with the differential inside the rotor of the motor), back in 2020. I'm glad to see it actually brought to life by Lucid. Great Job guyz
I believe Mercedes Benz embraced this also in some of their trucks, using hub reduction gears from the late 1950s onwards to allow faster rotating smaller upstream driveline components.
@@philhealey449 Its the speed/torque equation. Swaps High speed low torque to keep the motor in its sweet spot range. Then makes the motor split its power through an internal differential. That's Master Class Engineering & Packaging probably the best Light Weighting & Efficiency. The 7:1 planetary sets eliminates the need for bigger pitch heavier gears Offset Gear Train. Maybe they should have used a Quaife Torsen type Limited Slip gear Differential?
@@kevinburke6743 I guess practical limit with mass of the wheels precludes a gearless shaftless pancake motor in each wheel, or a NASA Lunar Rover harmonic drive?
@@philhealey449 a double rotor single Stator AXIAL FLUX motor could probably do the job best. The rotors could be the Ring gears of the planetary systems. holding the planets & sun gear( on a drive coupling. Straight to the CV joint. No need for a diff with vector torque. No need to ever slip as with one slowing down as the other speeds up in a closed loop feed back system. This could be instantly overseen & corrected by steering input. The only problem is packaging Axial Flux or Pancake motors are discs. thin in comparison to their diameter. It is their diameter that gives them their power. Whereas Radial Flux motors are tubes which are longer than they are in diameter. It is simplistically their length & diameter that gives them their power. Per kilogram I think you'll find that axial flux motors are more efficient. Then this Father & Son outfit come along and muddy the waters with their Hunstable Electric Propulsion Unit. Basically a Radial Flux motor with two stator of an Axial flux motor stuck on the end to use the magnetic field which would otherwise go to waste! They call it quite Logically a Raxial Flux Motor. To get back to your question Pancake motor having bigger diameter than radial flux motors means the drive has to have higher less straight(Horizontal) PowerTrain.
Why would someone be a fan of Tesla? By what I see and hear it’s the first principle approach and the tech. If someone does it better I become a fan of them too
Tesla is full of geniuses, but they can't achieve ALL the firsts and greatests. They do, however, put together an impressive array of great innovations that no others can both match and implement at scale and low cost. There will be things like this motor which rise above Tesla quality- everyone can be your teacher!
Welcome to the Munro Live Vlogger team Walker Lee! Looking forward to more inputs from you. I'm always amazed how Munro Associates and team and is able to do cost analysis of how much a vehicle cost to produce, down to the screws and bolts and manhours .❤First to comment?
From my point of view you cannot exactly see manhours or tool costs from a product itself. There is no way to see for sure, whether some certain assembly step is performed by skilled human workers or a robot (but you can do educated guessing of course). You cannot see, whether a Chinese worker did it in a Chinese factory for cheap labor or lets say some Union worker from the US at higher pay. You also cannot see, whether some company has bought materials or parts at certain spot market prices (changing every minute) or at prices of long-term agreements with certain suppliers. Nor can you see warranty cost such as for faulty parts (think of Chevy Bolt battery packs) and how they split that with LG. Or replacement costs on failed early Tesla drive units. Finally, there are costs for logistics and shipping, that depend on distances between a suppliers plant and assembly plant. Or costs in storing and handling parts in warehouses. So, there must be a fair share of assumptions inside those calculations. One of the most recent examples was Munro calculating something like US$150-200 per car (in parts and handling) saved from removing the ultrasonic sensors and wiring loom, and extrapolating that to many thousands of sold cars. But then, customers disliked this new "Vision only" way without proper software support initially, did not get the software in time and then did not (and still do not) trust the new alpha/beta software for parking, even had a few auto-park features disabled, and Tesla had to give massive discounts far higher in the thousands of USD per car. Also insurance went up. I would take all their analyses with a grain of salt.
@@MooseOnEarth Tesla has no Stealerships, they sell direct and have REAL TIME DATA on sales , production and control profits and adjust prices accordingly, in days ,not weeks or months, like legacy auto. As of yesterday Ford has nearly 3 months supply of its bestselling F150 pickup ( as per the earnings report), Ford is not making money on its BEVs ,it made money on ICE Pickups and SUVs, almost the same story with GM, how they survive in the transition to BEVs will be interesting, of course there's always the TAXPAYER to bail them out.🤔
@@MooseOnEarth The Tesla vision thing is a false equivalency. We know for sure Tesla was saving money in that switch. From a cost perspective it made perfect sense. From a PR (and potentially safety) perspective, it made less sense. Munro can only analyze what they think something will cost in terms of parts, materials or labor. They arnt in the business of making a judgement call of whether it also makes sense from a PR perspective. Munro also promotes attachment methods that are less user-serviceable over traditional bolts and screws. Is it better to drive up cost to make something the owner can take apart in minute detail? Or does it make more sense to just sell them a more expensive unrepairable replacement module? Also, Munro has a pretty good idea what things cost because theyve worked in the industry for decades and know what things cost to their clients. And they DO know when parts are made in China because they know who the common suppliers are and where they do their manufacturing. And all of those suppliers have catalogs filled with prices. Its not magic, its what they do.
@@patreekotime4578 Much of the cost for Tesla Vision is in software development, software maintenance, data collection, data analysis, AI programming and training, datacenter operations, all the staff around that, and the Autopilot hardware in the car. AFAIK, Munro never accounted for the software and services side, because you cannot tear that down, weigh it on a scale, and put nice little labels on it. They have a serious blind spot in firmware, software (including all processes around it) and digital services and will likely underestimate or overestimate there. Apart from that: Munro can only have cost models for established parts and established processes in manufacturing for the past. There are many things that have not even been done for decades: CFK bodies in volume production cars (think BMW i3), 6000-9000t die casting (think IDRA and Tesla), large-scale Li-ion battery production (be it prismatic blades or cylindrical cells with part-dry electrolytes), ADAS. In addition, all fixed cost (even if there was an estimate) must be allocated to the actual units really produced. This number however will depend on production volume, which will depend on sales, which will depend on pricing and rebates and competition, finally depending on offers and demand. From my point of view, Munro would need a kind of dynamic predictive world economic model including labour rates, tariffs, customs, contracts, energy prices (oil, gas, electricity), chip shortage, supply chain issues, scrap rates, maintenance contracts, exchange rates, interest rates, and so on. I believe, that Munro does a good job at estimating likely costs based on hardware alone for some point in time in the *past*, but I remain sceptic, whenever they claim, they could do so for an entire car and entire car business with high accuracy in the *future*.
I agree absolutely. Better than those shown by the CEO and VP of Lucid. Cory / Walker presentation was similar but more detailed and answered everything about Lucid's motors. The comment about relative moving parts is also excellent. But hub wheel motors have zero. The moving parts are not in contact at all, separated by air gaps, no need for any lubrication. Relative may not be appropriate, should be contacting/sliding/rubbing moving parts.
You need to be careful around magnets Cory, I have a pretty good idea of the watch you are wearing, magnets and mechanical watches don't always get along. Otherwise, another excellent presentation.
I appreciate that as a company you involve and empower your staff in producing RU-vid content. I have to assume that this represents the culture behind what we see. Also I love your content!
Love the channel. With some good editing, B roll, animations and multiple cameras - these types of discussions can be exponentially more impactful. It can really highlight your team's incredible experience and engineering prowess. But still good like it is either way :)
Great evaluations. Definitely weight savings, performance, serviceability and simplicity in design seem to be well executed. Room for refinement will be exciting to view in future Lucid products. Hopefully they will survive the shorter term cash flow challenges of any complex business startup, especially in today’s disastrous economy. With today’s economy, the EV market demand is quickly moving to EVs under $30,000 not the $150,000+ segment.
Definitely some amazing engineering going on in their vehicle. I just hope they can sort out their production woes so they can sell enough vehicles to stay in business.
Excellent stuff. This was a very interesting analysis of the Lucid motor, which given your analysis, looks like an amazing piece of engineering and design. Thank you.
Amazing design, so compact and light.. And efficient too. Just was a video of a Lucid on a road trip.. running 75-85 mph.. and getting almost 4 miles per Kwh. That really efficient.
The true test of a Great President at Munro & Associates is difficult to follow in their footsteps and achievements. Yet < Cory Steuben > is such a star player. I honestly don't know what Munro would do without him Always positioning his staff at the forefront of a Munro Live presentation to put Talented individuals from this Avant Guard teardown Company. Yep Sandy may be a character that shines and picks talent BUT Cory just keeps the fans coming back for more. Bravo Cory, thanks...
Absolutely fascinating. Interesting the divergence of design between Lucid and Tesla, and that Tesla have not gone in the "Lucid" direction on the motor, given their minimalist design mantra. All those copper welds...
I will definitely check out the podcast. This was a very educational overview of the Lucid hardware in their electric motors. Please keep the content coming. Also, great metric for comparison...cost per kW/h.
I know you have to sell this information but I would love to know how the cost is in comparison to a plaid powertrain. Maybe a hint in percentage or so 😅 Love your videos!
re: "Maybe a hint in percentage or so" "NO INFO FOR YOU...!!!" (Soup Nazi voice) look mister you just "come off the dime" and buy yourself a report like the rest of us. Texas Ranger's got himself a baby, and as they say "baby needs a new pair of shoes", possibly even a "Rollie"...? hey the kid might be "stylish", you don't know. 😁
@@GreenDriveIndia as I know, the smaller something with the same power is, the more expensive it is. But maybe the materials could be such a great difference that it is cheaper but I doubt it. I would like if @munrolive would tell us, which of these two is the cheaper one.
Was surprised and educated.. nice! Looks like the technology is great at this time, but can't wait for the future evolution on all aspects of this revolution.
I just watched the Lucid Tech Talk on their drive unit so understand this a lot better. Lucid really is ground breaking in their efficient design and power density of their drive unit. Both integrating the differential into the rotor and their stator design with continuous wave wire windings are innovative breakthroughs allowing class leading density. Truly impressive.
I'm thinking it's not all that necessary. Modern automatic transmissions have sealed, unserviceable filters, but they are subject to much more heat, jarring, NVH, and tendency to degrade the fluid. I can see a highly precise electric drivetrain not needing fluid service.
@@jamesengland7461 Which transmissions are you referring to? A good example is Mercedes-Benz claiming their transmissions were "sealed" for years, despite having an easily replaceable filter under the bottom access cover (and many circuit issues resulting from poor oil condition). It's nonsense. The life of these motors is also much longer than the average transmission before any rebuild. Of course it will be necessary eventually to extend the life. The average torque converter transmission is usually temperature regulated too with own cooler circuit. Do you know how hot the gear oil gets on Teslas when driven harshly?
In the Plaid story, Cory said, that the filter doesn't need service for the life of the car. And nonservicable filter is a advantage from the point of view of cost and reliability (leaks, maintenance mistake).
To me, them making it so small really adds value. They are very diligent in size reduction, and they put it to great use with a 280 litre frunk on a SLICK SEDAN. Tesla started with a same size Model S and 150 litres, but that was a RWD vehicle. Their AWD Model S and Plaid barely has any left, 87 litres. Lucid, in the same form factor and for the same or better drag coefficient, offer A LOT of utility. A business traveler can always have a few extra overnight kits in there, and supplies such as brochures, merch, point of sale, etc, and not have it bounce around the rear trunk for larger items or everyday convenience.
It is nice that someone has put thought into the design. The continious wounding, cooling channels really close to the winding seems like a really nice improvement. However not fully convinced by the differential inside shaft because it means you need two gearboxes. I wonder what is their lifetime for the unit, because tesla claims 1000000 miles unit, which is insane number if you think that there is no need to replace bearings, filters, etc…
16:35 There are also manufacturers who install electric oil and water pumps so that cooling can continue even when the combustion engine is switched off
The reviews are more focused into studying components and how they relate to production costs. But would be also interesting giving a review taking into account the durability of such component choice. Most of viewer are standard customers, and reliability and durability are important factors.
It will be impossible to know until theyve been on the road for 200k miles and someone disassembles them. Also, without expensive testing to discover the exact composition of every component, Munro couldnt even begin to do the very expensive stress analysis on each part.... and in the end they would only be guessing. Presumably Lucid has done the due dilligence here and has both modelled each component, and done some kind of mechanical stress/endurance testing (like Tesla famously did with their million-mile drivetrain). I would point out that even though other manufacturers have larger assemblies, they ALL have a relatively small diameter output shaft on their motors, but as far as I know thats never been a failure point for a modern EV despite all of the torque from the motor going into a very small shaft.
@@patreekotime4578 You can create stress tests using known data from past products as a baseline and then build on that database and refine it more and more to eliminate any potential inaccuracies. So, instead of 10 years and hundreds of thousands of miles, a standardized relatively short term test could reveal the flaws (lets say 3-4 weeks of testing to cover things that would need 1 or heck 5 years)
Don't forget to mention the laminated "sandwich" of copper in the hairpin conductors that help reduce the losses through the skin effect; sort of course Litz wire though still room for improvement there.
Just laminating sandwich of copper layers in the conductor won't help with anything regarding skin effect. The layers would need to be braided to work like litz wire, and clearly they are not.
Could you share more info on the shape of the oil channel going through the laminated. It looks like it is larger at first and then reduces the section on the side to create a higher flow towards the end windings. Is that correct ?
Love the Lucid design, especially the "baby differential" in Cory's words. So my ideal EV would have Lucid drive motor, Tesla batteries & heat exchangers, Tesla electronics & FSD, etc, etc. Cherry-pick the best design features to make the best-of-best vehicle. Someday soon, I pray...
Once Lucid Autopilot comes to mature. It will be better than Tesla. They are just ahead by 10 yrs. But Lucid's Hardware is way better than what Tesla have for FSD
As a driver, how would you notice inconsistencies in stator welds? Noice, vibrations, reduced power, increased consumption, reduced life, increased heat?
I'm not expert, but the independent oil pump that keeps going even if the motor is stopped is awesome. Keeping things cools and lubricated, as needed, equals a long life with better performance.
Nice engineering. Smaller differential, but two gear reductions. I'm not sure about weight savings, you could tell us. I love planetary gear reductions! They are used in everything, even in helicopters!
@@Vlperine The rear Plaid unit uses two motors. All the other Tesla units use one. 290 pounds is for the single motor Tesla rear drive. To see how the Lucid dual rear motor "Sapphire" does against the Plaid see the recent video on the Hagerty youtube channel.
It would be really fun to see a basic EV drive system laid out on table next to an ICE version for comparison. I think you guys are the only ones that could actually do this.
Maybe dual motors RWD or FWD with torque vectoring are better than dual motors AWD and a third motor can be attached for more performance and capability at the front or rear which some manufacturers already do, am I right or wrong Cory?.
Dual RWD allows for torque vectoring. Adding a third motor up front can increase efficiency by optimizing the motor for lower power consumption. These cars are already stupid quick. The Lucid Sapphire is a 9s street car. That's bananas and far more than an average driver can handle.
Much smaller diff but now you need two large reduction gearsets instead of one. Interesting to see if that's actually beneficial rather than just clever for clever's sake. What do the weights tell you? Stator cooling and winding design is a thing of beauty.
