This is a topic long debated in the defensive firearms community. In this video, I'll discuss both sides of the issue and then weigh in with my own opinion.
Hello HR,I'm a retired NYC Correction Officer and when used to take inmates on hospital runs,we would carry the Smith and Wesson Model 5946 gen 3 with the magazine disconnect safety feature,the reason was that when we would uncuff inmates to let them use the bathroom,we would disconnect the magazine so in case they tried to take our handgun,the gun would not fire,the leg shackles never came off.One time an inmate got a hold of an officers firearm and stuck it in his chest and squeezed the trigger,luckely nothing happened. The inmate was just sentenced to 25 to life for murder and he conned the doctor into going to the hospital because he was complaining of"chest pains" his plan was to kill both officers,nurses and doctors and escape out of the emergency room into a waiting car. So I guess in that instance,the disconnect feature came in handy and saved a Correction Officers life. Live your channel!!!
@@geezerp1982 it happened so quick the other officer jumped on top of the perp and procedded to administer a good old fashioned best down!! Technically your right he couldve shot him,but that's how it happened. That inmate was in the hospital for a very long time after this incident!!!
Hog wash. Former LE. We hated magazine disconnect. If you can’t handle a prisoner transfer in irons, you have no business in LE. One incident in a million doesn’t mean we need mechanically engineered protection. A mag disconnect is far more dangerous to have than not !
I used to talk to CA Highway Patrol officers in my previous job, and they always maintained that the MDS saved more than a few CHiPs in the line of duty, especially when backup was more than 20 minutes away👍🇺🇸
For many generations, hand-gunners (both law enforcement and all others) were largely revolver folks. I wonder if either the administrative misuse/negligent discharge rate or the LEO precluding a felon from utilizing his weapon rate has increase or decreased, as autoloaders became increasingly prevalent? I’d speculate that safety with modern (no hammer-mounted firing pin) DA revolvers is greater than with autoloaders, simply becuase shooters tend to be far more “involved” (think, manual transmissions). I’d I’m correct, then this issue might be far more one of keeping one’s brain fully and actively engaged, than one of the weapons’ designs.
@@hrfunk here's an example of the opposite, she accidentally hit the mag release on her steering wheel ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-latLT6Jzud4.html
@@hrfunk here's a video of a law enforcement officer in a shooting situation where she got the mag release on the steering wheel. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-latLT6Jzud4.html I was trying to find a better one but I don't have time I looked through like 20 of donuts videos. There was a shooting breakdown out front of a grey house where the cop I the middle of gun fire and cross fire accidentally hit his mag release when he had a adrenaline dump, he luckily loaded a new mag and didn't get hit.. If you post on donut operators sub on Reddit and ask for the video where the cop accidentally released his magazine someone will know what video it is. If you practice proper gun safety the guns not going to go off and if you have a proper holster someone shouldn't be able to draw your gun if your a cop they should be able to hang on your guns grip as you drag them around. I understand why they have it but the safety for a cop having the firearm taken isnt gonna help you have to magically hit the mag release button in the struggle and hope gravety works with you.. and if it doesn't come out all the way 9 times out of 10 someone will smack the mag back in. You shouldn't let things get to that point if your a cop you shouldn't have hands on anyone without backup and you shouldn't let someone get close enough to you without using your other tools or your gun as your last line of defense.. if that all fails your holster should protect you it's not a ccw holster it should have a push down pull up to release function and need to be in the perfect angle where if there's any side tension the gun shouldn't release.. and that should only be your last ditch safety net.. after using your other tools commands and finally drawing your weapon if needed. As long as there's a bullet in the chamber cops need the gun to fire.. that's the point of going to double action only and glocks.
I am old enough to remember that,decades ago, one of the firearms companies was experimenting with an electrical disconnect. The officer was to wear a wristband that sent a signal to the pistol. If the pistol was more than four inches from the band it could not fire,.. Thankfully these things were not put into service (as far as I know).
LoL one of those ideas that sound good on paper and to a politician that's never handled a firearm. Would be an awesome concept if it were 100% reliable though but we're light-years from coming up with something like that and I still wouldn't trust it.
. . . and, at lest for my ancient calendar, that wasn’t too long ago. As I recall, it was another brilliant idea emanating FLotUS Clinton and her acolytes, along with Hillary Holes for S&W revolvers, and the ten round magazine limit. If my memory is correct, during that same period some genius in California advocated the idea of a unique identifier (serial number, barcode, etc.) for each projectile. Please remember to vote!
I had two pistols that magazine disconnects. I removed them both. Someone in RU-vid land, there’s a video of a police officer struggling with a giant. The officer was grossly outmatched, and he dropped his magazine before being choked out. It was caught on his dashcam, but I can’t find it right now. She the other officers arrived, the guy was given an epic beat down. 👍👍👍👍🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Please check your local laws. If your pistol comes from factory without magazine safety is one thing. Other is the intentional removal of a safety device by the user. This can be troublesome in some countries or jurisdictions.
Nice video. I see a lot of hate directed toward magazine disconnect safeties, usually based on hypothetical situations where the need arises to fire a weapon in the middle of a combat reload, but I've never actually heard of a single instance of that happening. For civilians (who should be moving away from trouble) I think MDSs are mostly irrelevant, though they could prove useful in the off chance of a physical scuffle, but for police (who's job it is to engage trouble) they've proven to serve their purpose.
I removed the magazine safety from my S&W 1006 10mm, but thought about it and put it back in. In case of a struggle, hopefully I can push the magazine release and the perp won't be able to fire it. I live in an area with lots of leftist students so you never know when some idiot might try and grab it.
Never really cared for the MDS however I can see where it could come in handy in a law enforcement situation. I have noticed that most folks / civilians who have disconnected their MDS in their self-defense weapons have done so because of the improvement to the trigger system.
I think in most modern semi-autos it's a non-issue. They rarely have a significantly worse trigger as a result. The BROWNING, on the other hand... Okay, I know, the trigger on a pre-3rd gen. stock P-35 isn't terrible. But it's not exactly "good", either! And I honestly didn't understand just how good it COULD be until I acquired, many, many years ago, a heavily modified Hi-Power. The magazine disconnect safety had been removed, and the trigger slicked up. And that trigger was a GEM! It came in slightly under 3 lbs., with a glass rod break. It was, hands down, my favourite of all the handguns I ever owned... and the one I most deeply regret parting with.
If you are disciplined enough during a firefight to leave a round in the chamber at reload then I can see your point. But if the adrenaline rush causes you to empty the mag before reloading then that particular argument doesn’t work. I have never been in a gunfight and am not familiar with LEO training so it’s just my opinion.
That is precisely the way I was trained by my father (an FBI SA and Bureau firearms instructor) in the 1950’s: count your rounds fired, always know what remains in the magazine, and reload a box magazine before the chamber is empty. Of course, the Bureau’s issued sidearms at that point were S&W N Frame, .38 on a .44 Frame, 3,5 inch barrel revolvers, but many “field” agents routinely carried a lighter firearm (my dad favored the Colt/Browning 1908 in .380 ACP).
In my mind and from what I have seen Magazine Disconnects are Un-Safety devices especially when put on introductory level firearms sold to people who don't know the full rules of firearms safeties. Case and Point, a new firearms owner asked another vet how to store their recent purchase. Vet went over standard rack storage procedures, including dry firing to release spring tension over long term storage. The next weekend the Vet, myself and the new owner went to the range. the weekend after that I was informed that the new owner sold the high-point after shooting the TV.
I've always felt a mag safety on a duty pistol was a good idea. As you said, using safe gun handling practice should negate an AD/ND. Good video. Thanks Howard.
@Ghost 👻 I'm always annoyed by this damned idea that if someone is not flawless in their firearms handling, then they're somehow permanently unfit to use them ever. It takes like 5 minutes to explain the rules of gun safety, no one is incapable of following them properly. If you need a mag safety, you should work on your trigger/muzzle discipline, and familiarize yourself with clearing the chamber. Building the muscle memory will take days once you learn to clear a self-loader properly. No one is born knowing this stuff.
@@hrfunk ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-latLT6Jzud4.html Here's one video of a accidental mag release in a deadly situation with law enforcement she had no idea and went back into the fight with no ammo imagen if the single one in the chamber didn't fire and she needed it?
You can still fire a firearm with a magazine disconnect in it when the magazine is not resent by simply using your thumb to press the magazine release button whilst simultaneously pulling the trigger. The reason why magazine disconnects are present in a lot of civilian firearms is because of goofballs who come across a firearm or elsewhere who pick up a handgun, drop the magazine and think that the gun can't fire, then stupidly start pointing and pulling the trigger and end up shooting themselves or others. Now in the law enforcement arena they can sure be a life saver.
clearly its more of a problem TO CARRY CHAMBERED since unintended discharges are a known phenomenon and 100% of them occur when theres a chambered round... but so many who carry chambered will go on and on and on abt the aggravation of a magazine safety
I agree with you sir. On one side you have the what if brigade, on the other you have just unsafe firearms handling (basically people reverse the order of removing the magazine and clearing the chamber). As to your point about not trusting a mechanical safety, my oldest friend, who is a Romanian Border Police officer told me of an incident where a colleague had finished his range time, the range master ordered them to put pistols on safe and holster. When he engaged his manual safety, the pistol discharged (he was thumbing the safety as he was holstering the pistol) and shot himself in the leg. It took forensics a long time to determine that that firearm was profoundly defective. He almost got fired. The pistol was a Romanian Carpati, 32ACP made before he was even born (the actual firearm he used was made in '82 or something), just sat in a warehouse for 30 years and was issued in 2018.
Not a fan---- just what my auto needs, another reason not to go off when its time, mag not locked, not in battery, not chambered, manual safety , no wonder I carry wheel gun ! not going to war--- don't need to carry around 1/2 box of shells. I have autos, do some 3 gun, dueling sticks, steel plates with them, but to keep it light and simple I carry a j-frame S&W most days.
Several years ago in a conversation with a cop. He said he “heard” of an incident. In a scramble with a bad guy for his holstered gun. The cop disabled the pistol by pressing the Mag release. While the bad guy having trouble trying to figure out how to get the pistol out of the holster. The cop grabbed a small 32 auto out of his pocket and shot twice into the bad guy’s shoulder.. Like I said cop said he heard, might or might not be true.
Those are the same kind of anecdotal stories I've heard several times over the years. There is another account from a former NYC corrections officer in these comments.
I think that the safety concern would be more that when some folks see a firearm and see that there is no magazine in it they could tend to think it is unloaded and could pull the trigger thinking they have a safe gun. Mag disconnect makes it un-fireable in that scenario and that does eliminate one unsafe possibility. Of course , safety should start and end in the "computer" that is running the trigger finger .....
Google Dix v Beretta. Somebody sued Beretta because of the exact scenario you described. A teenage boy fatally shot his friend by accident with his dad's gun, believing he had unloaded it by removing the magazine. The prosecution argued that Beretta was negligent for not equipping that model with a magazine disconnect. Beretta won, but now we have safety warnings engraved all over our guns.
Given that I have seen multiple negligent discharges during weapons cleaning and I am pretty damn sure it happened because somebody negligently loaded a round before a functions test, I will definitely say that having a round in the chamber without a magazine is definitely a condition in which malfunctions can occur. Don't be that person, whether the magazine disconnect is there or not. Especially if you are vehemently against this kind of safety, always check the chamber before attempting to dry fire. If you do this a thousand times, there's always that one in a thousand that you will forget. Talking to someone, doing something else, whatever.
Yes sir that's a really good presentation. I'd always heard that in your line of work that the magazine safety was specifically or just has incidents where the officer is wrestling with the perpetrator over there weapon that the officer brought to be fight, manage to hit the magazine release button and drop the magazine and then did not get shot with their own weapon. And I'd heard that the magazine disconnect safety was the whole idea behind that. My only reason I don't like the one on my Browning is because it I can feel the drag on the trigger pull whenever I squeeze the trigger on my Browning. That's my only complaint! LOL
It was put on there because inexperienced shooters think the gun is unloaded after dropping the mag, not realizing there's one still in the chamber. The correct way is to drop the mag and rack the slide.
I am learning watching your videos! I thought I had no firearms with a magazine disconnect WRONG! I have a Marlin 22 short stock 10 shot semiautomatic RIFLE WITH A MAGAZINE DISCONNECT! ! Learn something new . Thank You. It's a model 795,bought it for my grandson and our house is the Storage unit for the family.
Good video HR. One should consider the magazine safety on the Browning High Power was specified by the Belgian military who wanted it. They were the first military to adopt the pistol, so they got their wish. Their manual of arms called for the pistol to be carried with an empty chamber. If a soldier chambered a round and fired a few shots at "bad guys" and then the engagement ceased, the soldier was left with a chambered round. To return the pistol to the empty chamber state and drop the hammer safely, the soldier could drop the magazine, rendering the pistol safe, then operate the slide to eject the chambered round. He could then replenish the magazine, insert the loaded mag back in the pistol (now with an empty chamber) and lower the hammer on an empty chamber. It was also their manual of arms to retain the magazines, hence the elimination of the "drop free" feature. These design features all worked perfectly *for the purpose intended.* Whether it is as useful for civilian shooters...probably not. Whenever I carry my High Power, it is cocked and locked, chamber loaded. On the other hand, my most used carry gun is a S&W 3914 DAO pistol and it has a magazine safety also. I have no issue with it at all. Trigger pull? It's a DAO! I don't notice the mag safety making any difference.
The disconnect adds more parts and increases the ratio of push and pull to activate all that extra linkage. Most readily observable with the Hi Power system. Sometimes not, like with the Ruger SR and P where the inserted magazine simply pushes a plunger in the slide out of the way of firing pin /striker traveling forward.
Exactly as you mention at the 1:30 mark...I've owned, both. The department mandated, M&P40 full size, issued in the mid 2000's...was required, to have the disconnect safety. SOP further dictated, that upon entering any detention, (mental health, county jail, prison, etc.) we drop, (and securely, retain separately) the previously installed magazine. I believe, this was a further effort (in addition, to the level 3 holsters) to reduce any possibility, of a weapons retention circumstance. It may, have been excessive; but with that said...no one (to my knowledge) ever, experienced any disarms. My daily carry, 9c (also a Mk1, M&P) will fire, with the magazine removed. I prefer the latter, for many of the reasons, you mention. I, and the rest of the dept. were always steadfast, and compliant. We saw, and appreciated the real (and perceived) benefits, to all the safety measures, in place. Training with modern semi-autos, allowed the use of "red gun" or "yellow" barrels, for contact training. I can remember, the "red", training revolvers *sigh*. Is there such thing, as too safe, when it comes to firearms handling, training, and utilization? Not if you're asking, a large organization. Like yourself, I'm not growing grain...on either side, of the fence. From what I am told, the local police, county sheriff, university, and health system...still run, mostly (or all) disconnect safety, handguns. There has been, and still is (long after the transition) considerable discussion, on disconnects. You've provided us, with another excellent video...as always! I think many, will glean wisdom, from your experience, and expert information.
While I generally prefer my Pistols to not have a Magazine Disconnect Safety, I can see the possible value of having one. A Lady Friend of mine who runs a Child Daycare has an S&W 5904 for Defense. That Pistol is stored up high with no Magazine and an empty Chamber. The Loaded Magazine is stored elsewhere in the same room. Even though the Kids are barred from that Room, and they managed to get ahold if it, for which they would NEED a Ladder, that Pistol would be useless to them, unless they could manage to find that Magazine. She only cares for Kids up to 8 years old. BTW, She's Six foot Five inches tall and can easily reach the Pistol if needed.
Better to keep the magazine on her person, it's small relatively light and more accessible. I saw a recommendation years ago for certain jurisdictions where parents kept a magazine safe pistol on the mantle with no magazine and each carried a magazine. Geoff Who has not been in that position.
For an LE pistol it makes more sense but a civilian firearm not so much. Also on some pistols it interferes with magazine ejection. My Star B and one of my Tokarev pistols function better with MDS removed.
Not a fan of the MDS, if it was such a great idea it would be more universal. It isnt, but it still exists for those that want it. More options are good, but it is also another point of failure and complication.
The Garcia imported Star pistols after the GCA 68 were notorious for failing after the mag safety was included. Geoff Who has a very expensive paperweight.
Another interesting facet of this debate is the Dix vs Beretta case in the late 90s. A teenager was showing his father's gun to his friend. He ended up fatally shooting him, because he incorrectly believed that the gun was unloaded if the magazine was removed. The prosecution argued that Beretta was negligent because they chose not to equip that particular model with a magazine disconnect. Beretta won the case, but the incident led to safety warnings like 'READ OWNERS MANUAL BEFORE USE' being engraved in huge letters all over our guns.
You touched on my only reason to disfavor MDS. If everybody would always just follow the 4 cardinal rules, negligent discharges would all but disappear. But I've just known too many people, including some that should know better, who are either not proficient shooters or who think they're so expert that "silly rules" no longer apply to them, who start to treat a gun without the magazine as unloaded. All in all though, i think the added protection they can provide in a struggle justifies them. I've talked to cops who said the feature saved their lives.
Tell that to Alec Baldwin. He hates guns so he refused to be bothered to learn the 4 rules of gun safety. Someone died from his sheer ignorance and recklessness. A cording to the news, the film crew gave a gun safety class, and he was busy elsewhere. So the gun crew gave him a personal gun safety class, and he just let it go in one ear and out the other.
@@ms.annthrope415 Don't try to equate movie sets with gun ranges. One of the keys here is, "According to the news". The news often reflects what somebody puts out in their own self-interest. Actors have been making movies and tv shows featuring guns for 100 years. Thousands upon thousands of actors have handled prop guns every day for a century, and very few of them have been proficient with guns. The reality is that guns on movie sets have never been handled appropriately. People think the case against Baldwin was dropped for political reason. It was actually filed for political reasons, and dropped because the State could not prove he violated a negligence standard.
Great video! As a Marine in Vietnam, my T/O weapon was a 1911 without a magazine disconnect, (the one I carried was very old and rattled as I walked). However, because I believe I would be of greater risk of having a much larger person getting the firearm away from me than the magazine falling out, I favor magazine disconnects in my personal automatics. With that said, my conceal carry firearm will always be a revolver.
I like the idea of people who want a magazine disconnect safety having a magazine disconnect safety, and people who don't want a magazine disconnect safety not having a magazine disconnect safety. Let the individual choose for their individual needs rather than imposing a one-size-fits-all solution. But that's just me. I like living in a country founded on the principle of individual rights, individual liberties, and individual freedom..
Hi. The main concern of the safety issues hasn't really been addressed. Here it is. The hi power is a 15 round weapon. If you have only shot a number lower then 15 you cannot render the firearm completely safe as the hammer will remain drawn back. The safe thing to do is to disengage the magazine and recycle the firearm to release the shot in the chamber and subsequently lower the hammer. This action would render the firearm completely safe where the magazine with remaining ammo can be replaced back in place. With the magazine disconnect this action is impossible to preform. Carrying a firearm with the hammer back and only a safety lock in place isn't ideal. How do you release that unfired shot from the chamber and lower the hammer and return the magazine to the firearm?
"Ach du lieber, senor Funk, mein schatz"!!! WOW! Great video! As an 81 year old "armchair gun nut", I'll probably stay a "fence stradler" for a while, until the LORD "TWEEKS" my mind which way to go! I'm "Mr. Indecisive" at this point (see later!). I've always had this fault! I MIGHT "inch" toward having a "magazine disconnect safety", only because of my "fearful wife", who refuses to even look at my bedside pistol, & when my fairly young grandkids come over & might "snoop around" when they shouldn't!! SO BE IT for now! I highly value your expertise & experience though!!! May GOD bless you & your family to safety & good health! AND "you know WHO to VOTE FOR" - he's already THERE!!! "Gesundheit"!!!
I agree with you on both points. Safety first and always first whether there is a MDS or not and I'm not particular if my firearms has the MDS or not but I do see the advantage if someone was trying to take your firearm, it might save your life. Really great video HR, Thank you.
Great video got me thinking! Never really thought about much. I appreciate the time and attention to detail you put into these videos . Anything that helps our hero's in Law Enforcement stay alive and healthy I am for. I am older now and appreciate Officers more than I ever have. Thanks for your Service Semper Fidelis Happy Halloween.
I honestly believe that this design feature that is known as the "magazine disconnect safety" is a fools errand. If I am being charged during a reload I want to be able to discharge the round in the chamber to protect my life and end the threat.
@@wacky6136 Wowzers, wacky. In a life and death situation one does not always shoot to empty. One shoots to live. Reloading a pistol with a seven-shot magazine after discharging five shots from the first magazine could mean the difference between life and death so as I stated above "the magazine disconnect safety is a fools errand. I want to be able to discharge the round in the chamber to protect my life and end the threat." Also, just because someone removes a magazine from a rifle or pistol IS NOT A GOOD INDICATOR OF AN EMPTY CHAMBER! NEVER ASSUME A CHAMBER IS EMPTY. Ensure that it is BY CHECKING IT YOURSELF before fiddling around with it.
After listening to Massad Ayoob re: magazine disconnect safetys I think he made a very good argument for magazine disconnects, when it comes to police and their weapons as in when a person gets into a struggle with an officer and is trying to gain control of his/her firearm and in an event like that being able to eject the magazine from the gun and rendering it unusable { except as a club }. According to Massad, a man I very much look up to and respect, the advent of magazine disconnects has saved many officer's lives. So, in my most esteemed opinion, one which everybody should regard on most high, I favor the recomendation of Massad Ayoob on the subject........for police. For me I have eliminated it on my SW22 Victory and my Browning Buckmark as they are target pistols. I have not and will not eliminate it on my FN Model 88 High Power. And the rest of my semi-auto pistols do no have a disconnect feature.
Interesting subject.. So it won't fire during a magazine change with the safety intact. But it will fire with it removed. I my mind a mag change means you just ran out of Boolits. The firearm cannot fire until a fresh mag is in and the slide is racked. So why do I need the mag safety ?? Another concern with the mag safety intact regarding the HI-Power is the empty mag may not fall freely. You may need to manually remove it from the firearm. Have you got that extra time it takes to manually remove the Mag.. Maybe....Maybe not.. NOTE : I have read that not all HI power pistols have the problem with the mag not falling freely with the safety intact. Mine did. so the mag safety is gone...
I have both, and also do not regard it a big deal breaker for purchase of either style. As an older Veteran in a self defense situation, the magazine disconnect would be an asset. In home defense , it makes no difference and as always, follow safety rules...be safe and live free or die.
The removal is a big improvement as a combat pistol in several ways. In a fight you can fire that round in the chamber in a deadly encounter and in the P35 it appreciably improves the trigger. My opinion it's a increase in general combat efficiency maybe in part psychological but the improvement in the trigger alone is worth the conversion.
P.S CHIEF I have seen some pistols with magazine disconnects that if you touch the trigger and drop the magazine the gun still will fire that last round.
Hello HR, nice video, clearly explained pro & cons. I quite share your point of view, having handguns of both types. It doesn't matter very much. One has to know one's guns and act safely accordingly.
Useful to some but dangerous to others depending on need and circumstances. Looking forward to reading feedback from your disciples. The late Col. Jeff Cooper taught the technique of counting down to the final cartridge, chambered and with 'front toward enemy,' while reloading. But that was with 7 round 1911 magazines underloaded to 6 back in the 1960s. Today with about 18 cartridges give or take 1 or 2 more or less in a service or offduty sidearm, would anyone have presence of mind to count, or is it more likely to just keep firing until the slide locks back and then reload ?
Much as it pains me to depart from any of Col. Cooper’s tenants, the idea of trying to count shots under the stress of a life & death fight is not a realistic expectation for most people. Let alone trying to time a reload to the point where the final round rests in the chamber.
@@hrfunk Absolutely. Even in practice situations and just plinking with the guys there was'nt anyone I was with who could come close without errors, and that's just against paper targets not returning fire. The Colonel's technique was 1 handed hold with the "support" hand holding and reaching up to the magazine well with the reload as the empty is being dropped. I believe that such thinking originated from Cooper's predecessors, Col. Applegate and the British colonial police trainers Sykes and Fairbairn, who patterned the WW2 commando daggers. They were supposedly in more than 100 gunfights between them while observing their Officers conducting operations against criminals in Hong Kong and Singapore during the 1930s.
@@hrfunk As I recall, back in the 70s, informal US Army training by some 175th Rangers, the 1911 pistol, three-duces mag change. Following that drill, you would not be required to count, your automatic system response would count for you. Yes it was based on carrying a 1911 chamber empty with a 7 round magazine, two back ups. Geoff Who has been around a long time.
The Tier 1 operators using this pistol for decades through wars and anti-terrorist operations (i.e. the SAS of multiple countries, Rhodesia, South Africa) and regular military issued this pistol, laugh in your general direction. Especially when, in their opinion, you don't have anything remotely close to actual face-to-face gunfighting like they do to base your opinion on.
In addition to what was said, MDS could build false confidence and sloppy handling practices in the person operating the handgun and thus lead to a negligent discharge when that person handles a gun without it.
@@hrfunk Also requiring the user to insert a magazine to do function checks and dry firing increases opportunities to accidentally reintroduce ammunition to a cleared firearm. It makes the gun less safe.
At a fundamental level, I don't like the disconnect, because its another mechanism to fail and put the weapon out of service. If the mag is damaged or lost, but you have loose rounds, the weapon is still out of service. I also don't believe Id be able to eject the mag, but not clear the pipe; If I eject the mag, I still have a single round that I can use, or dump. That said, though I dont recall the details, I do know of at least on incident, where a mag safety saved someone's life when he was robbed by three people. He deployed a pistol, there was a struggle and he lost possession of his gun. They tried to execute him with it, but he had partially ejected the mag, so they just pistol whipped the crap out of him.
A good presentation. Always nice to hear the HP called by the correct name of P-35 (HP stands for Haute Puissance not the more commonly used Hi-Power). I grew up shooting black powder replicas, learned my combat shooting with DA revolvers and don't really like manual safeties and REALLY don't like magazine safeties. Thank goodness we can get whatever suits our style.
I ran across your channel. I would like to offer another answer to this question. It still may not be the answer. Guns at home are sometimes found by children. If the magazine is out this lessons them from shooting them selves. This feature may have been incorporated to reduce lawsuits.
I agree if you handle the firearm safely there shouid never be an incident . If your use to handling a 1911 cocked and locked safely then you shouldnt have an issue
On my Hi-Power the magazine doesn't drop free, which slows down reloads enough that I'm going to disable the mag release safety. Otherwise, it makes no difference to me either. Good job of presenting both sides of the debate.
THANK YOU, HR, for a very interesting video. I, too, don’t worry about this subject, however, I don’t believe I’d ever purchase a firearm with a MDS. Here’s why: 1. I believe the INDIVIDUAL should make every decision for the equipment he is accountable to operate safely and effectively. For example, this is why I tend not to drive vehicles with automatic transmissions or like DA/SA semiautomatics with decockers (if the shooter can’t safely lower the hammer on a loaded chamber - think revolvers - perhaps he shouldn’t be armed). I want to direct my machineries’ actions, not have the equipment make decisions for me (for example, I despise vehicles which activate windshield wipers uncommanded). Therefore, consistent with that belief, I never want a firearm with a useable round to disallow me from firing it (of course, I’m not a LEO and you made a sold point concerning MDS’s in policing roles). 2. In addition, my engineering background compels me to mention that every additional part or system in any mechanical contrivance introduces another potential failure-mode. I acknowledge that the probability of a MDS failing is very small, but it isn’t zero; and when we’re employing an equipment under the most extreme defensive circumstances the old USMC “KISS principle” seems to me to be rather important.
After a magazine is emptied the slide opens. There is no bullet in the chamber. Then you remove the emptied magazine. Can you fire the pistol or not ? ? ? ? ? It is immaterial if there is a magazine safety or not. Because there is no bullet in the chamber anyway.
Very well covered on both pros and con in given situations. Id agree its personal preferences. But definitely the magazine disconnect has more of a tactical advantage in CQB especially if they are stronger. In the streets whether you're a police officer or not you don't get to pick who you fight up against
Someone who has a dislike for one or the other needs to buy and use the one they prefer. Saying one is better than another is just an opinion. I have heard others complain about grip safeties as well. Making a perfectly safe firearm is not quite perfected and likely would have self professed firearm experts complaining about them too. This issue is about the same as arguing over which end to open a boiled egg.
@@hrfunkI Thought The US Army’s Thompson/LaGarde Cattle and Cadaver Testing Said No Caliber Less Than .45 Is Sufficient For The New US Service Pistol Which Became The 1911 Colt 😳😳
I have had the mag disconnect safety removed in many of my semi auto pistols but on the other hand from a LEO'S point if some thug gets your pistol you can drop the mag to prevent getting shot with your own firearm.
Not a fan of the magazine disconnect. I disabled mine on the BHP I had. Not a cop so...I don't have to struggle with anyone before I use deadly force. In fact, in Indiana, if I fight with someone first and then shoot them because I am losing, I go to jail. All that being said: In my opinion, the reason that the BHP trigger is no where near as good as the 1911 is because of that magazine disconnect. Just my opinion....
In the case of the P35, one can achieve a slightly better trigger pull by removing the mag safety. If it is intended as a range toy, that's ok. But I wouldn't recommend it on a defensive pistol for liability reasons. By the way., if I'm about to be hit by a meteor, a mag safety will be the least of my worries. Great work, keep it up. You're always enjoyable to watch.
Yes, Massad Ayoob always says that removing the MDS is like removing the brakes in your car, ladies and gentlemen of the jury! Don't forget that he sells magazine articles by crying LIABILITY and LAWSUIT. While he has a wealth of knowledge about guns and gun use, I will respectfully disagree. First, if your shooting must be justified. If your shooting is justified, then you had shot intentionally. Whether the gun has a disconnect or not is irrelevant. If your shooting was sketchy and couldn't be justified, then the fallback defense is the gun went off accidentally to neutralize the intentional shooting element. So how did it go off accidentally? Did you remove the magazine first? Was it a hair trigger? Did you violate all 4 rules of gun safety like Alec Baldwin? Again, the magazine disconnect issue is irrelevant. It only becomes an issue if you claim that you had removed the magazine, then believing it was unloaded, pulled the trigger and it fired, and would not have fired had the magazine disconnect was left undisturbed. And again, except for Smith and Wesson autos made in the 1980s and 1999s, and later, no other company uses a magazine disconnect. So how safe could it be if bo one else uses it? In fact when LAPD issued Smith and Wessons in the 1980s-1990s, they specified that the magazine disconnect be removed so it can fire without the magazine. Military Beretta 92FS do not have a magazine disconnect. Neither do Glocks, the most popular pistol in the past 100 years. So how valuable would a magazine disconnect be? So I would not beleive the automatic liability from disconnecting the magazine safety.
Good coverage of the MagDisconnect issue. I live in CA and just picked up a new Sig P226, which has this "feature". It doesn't bother me, and I don't plan to hassle with having it removed. I have 2 CZs that do not have MD, and I love them as they are also.
I just got a CA compliant p226 about 2 weeks ago and mine also has it as well as the stupid little chamber indicator flag on the top of the slide. My only concern is that it's a part that can break and has been known to break in the past. I suppose time will tell. I live in WA but because of the new mag capacity laws they only sell CA compliant full sized pistols here now.
Some Hi Powers seem to benefit from that modification more than others. I still have the disconnect safety installed in the Mark III you see in this video, and the trigger is pretty good as it is.
Magazine disconnects are a great idea. The chances of mishandle far outweigh the far flung situation of needing that round. Plus, why are you dropping the mag with a round in the chamber?
HR, we have a liberal gun policy here in Oklahoma. And most agencies allow their officers to carry what they qualify with. My chief and assistant chief both carry 1911’s on duty
Your thoughts on the matter were quite well presented. I personally don't mind, but I always felt that magazine disconnect safeties encourage someone to get out of the muscle memory of dropping a magazine and subsequently racking a slide to make the gun safe. That said, the circumstance of a police officer fighting over control of their weapon and being able to drop the magazine is quite a compelling argument in favor of those disconnect safeties for duty weapons.
Browning Hi Power magazine disconnect safety affects accuracy due to gritty trigger pull and prevents empty magazines from dropping free of the pistol when making fast mag changes. Various makes of magazine affect the trigger pull differently, some more than others due to surface finish.
HR, I am a subscriber to your channel and a long time retired NJ LEO, having served from '73 to '88. Among other firearms, I own 2 Ruger P95DC's, 1 each of Ruger LC9S, SR40 and SR45. The P95DC's do NOT have a Magazine Disconnect System, whereas the other Rugers do have this system in addition to a trigger safety mechanism. I was toying with the idea of removing the MDS from the LC9S and the SR40 and SR45, however upon giving the thought serious consideration and upon viewing this video, I decided against doing so. These features are in place for overall safety concerns which I fully support and being 75 yoa at present am not as physically strong as I was in years past, also not to mention that my wife, same age , owns and operates the LC9S, and she is more prone to being overpowered by an assailant than I. A " Most Excellent " video presentation and I only hope that ALL who own weapons with the above mentioned safety features maintain their integrity in their weapons as they are there to protect you !
@@hrfunk I hope that ALL benefit from YOUR wisdom and intellect as it is YOU and YOUR insight which distinguishes between fiction professed by others and the reality that YOU bring to the table. I thank " YOU " for your diligence and attention to detail to ALL of your informative videos. Keep up the ' Good Work " and please keep the videos coming !
I don't like MDS's for defensive firearms, but I can see them being an added safety feature on the range - unintended discharges are frowned upon in competitions. Having said that, I have removed just one MDS from any firearm - I was trying to improve the trigger of a High-Power. Slight improvement.
It is also possible to leave the disconnect in place on the Hi Power and polish the surface that bears against the magazine. The will improve the trigger as well.
I prefer CZ firearms , but it really doesn't bother me if a firearm has a Magazine discount safety. I care about the trigger, ergonomics and reliability.
I see both sides of the argument concerning a gun having a magazine disconnect safety. I prefer not to have a magazine disconnect safety on my handguns. Maybe that is because I grew up shooting revolvers, and a MDS is one more thing that could prevent me from firing my gun when I want to. I do not carry a gun on my person so it is unlikely that anyone would ever be able to get close enough to me to get my gun from me in a defensive situation.
I am certainly no expert on this topic, but this subject is salient to me, because the only reason I would consider the removal of the mag disconnect pin, which is otherwise a good idea, is my frustration with not being able to find aftermarket parts, such as a more comfortable, effective, and more aesthetic trigger pad for my California sig p238. Because I use it for my CCW, I will not remove the pin, but instead see if there is a way to modify the factory trigger, ie lightly sanding the sharp edges. I wish more aftermarket fabricators would consider making parts for CA handguns, my guess is fewer people would be removing the safety disconnect pins.
Seriously tho, it would seem to be a gun manufacturer liability to build two exact models of firearms except one has the magazine disconnect and one doesn't without some kind of visual clue. Maybe an orange mag eject button or that lady on most GPS units saying "Magazine safety activated". My EDC is the FN FIVE SEVEN which has this feature. To dry fire I have to drop the magazine, rack the slide then insert a magazine for the trigger to function. A place that does trigger jobs on the Five Seven told me that they have to do away with the magazine disconnect to get improvement on the trigger pull. Can you tell a difference between those two handguns as to trigger pull and reset? As to just always use proper firearm safety I admire your vision but that "treat every weapon as if it's loaded" is sadly largely overlooked. As a medic I've worked many accidental shootings. Some self inflicted, some of another person. Some were fatal. In every case "I thot it was unloaded." I've never been in a law enforcement facility without a bullet hole somewhere. Recently a young female detective was shot in the back of her thigh shattering her femur and hitting an artery. She was walking past her partner's desk as he shoved an "empty" AR into it's case. I've tried to give very local officer, city, county and state a basic IFAC kit with CAT tourniquet, Quikclot and bandage and that day it worked. Karma. A local police chief had called me to see if he could stop by to look at some weapons but I missed the call. If he hadn't been at the jail with that tourniquet she would have probly bled out. None of the detectives had their CAT on them. Anyway, she made it but it was close and lot of surgery and rehab. I need to have her a plaque made "I survived being shot by an empty firearm." Aw man, I got off topic. Again. Great video. Well, cept for those screwdrivers out of perfect vertical. Like a picture hanging crooked. But great vid anyway. OCD/PTSD rick. L8r. BTW: I CAN see both sides of the subject/argument. I can always start a fire by sayin "It's not if you're going to have a negligent discharge, but when." Gettin warmer already. Hopefully I got mine out of the way. Luckily didn't hurt anyone and made me a lot more careful. That was nearly 40 years ago. Still embarrassing and I was alone.
@@hrfunk I have no excuse but had been up a day or 2 with SAR, wrecks and other things and when I would get home I would drop the AR magazine, eject the round in the chamber then pull the trigger for two reasons, well three. Hammer and trigger spring tension and also you cannot engage the safety in the condition. Therefore when I pick up any of my ARs and safety is in "fire" and safety wont engage I know the gun is empty and has to be charged. That night, tho maintaining muzzle discipline I was a bit shocked when the rifle fired. Auditory sensory overload and not shocked easily but was wondering if I had been shot. I had left out that step of dropping the magazine. Even felt the difference when the hot round was chambered but i had let down my alertness upon entering my house after being at orange and red continuously for so long. It was about 3am. NOW when i do that on an AR or any weapon my hand, or finger on a pistol, is in the magwell before i drop the hammer. Or stryker. The FN is hammer fired with the mag disconnect but still at least have pinky in magwell when eject that round in the chamber. Up until that moment the AR fire i would have bit doubtful it could happen to me. BTW:it was so loud it WASN'T loud. Barely woke my wife up maybe 60' away but a couple of levels away also. Maybe you could illustrate my mistake but also show that the AR cannot be put on safe with the hammer down. So just seeing an AR with safety in "fire" position does not necessarily mean the weapon is hot. Franklin Armory advertises that you can, in fact, engage the safety when the gun is empty and hammer down with their binary trigger installed but I did not find that to be true. Also in a SIG MPX trigger slap was so violent I had to remove their trigger. I didn't even know what "trigger slap" was until then. On reset the trigger would do this hard rebound or violent "slap"against my finger. Watching videos I could see it but Franklin Arms never mentioned it. When I called them they said they had no complaints or knowledge of such a thing but refused to let me ship them the weapon and let them reinstall the trigger. They also advertised that service but would not do it on the MPX. I no longer do business with Franklin Armory. If a trigger cost as much as a new Glock, well before guns and ammo disappeared, they should backlit up........Oops, I changed subjects again. With your background I'm not surprised that you have not had an accidental or negligent discharge. It made me a safer operator but I should have been that safe before it happened. Fatigue should not over ride training and muscle memory. Also since that time I stay at "yellow" after working in so many countries where i could never totally drop my guard or go fully to sleep. Perhaps we can actually talk sometime. My life has been like a cheap action movie without exotic weapons or exotic female spies. No private jets either. In movies you see folks in helicopters and military planes having calm conversations. Guess ya just have to have been there. And dress warmly. If I didn't mention it you mite check a TedX Talks vid partially titled "I see dead people" by Dr Kerr talkin about becoming a believer in NDEs, near death experiences, after witnessing so many incidents in his operating room. I told of one I witnessed instead of my own and that has led to over 200 comments and I share some other stories. Haven't completely told mine so far. I've actually left here twice, went bout halfway and got to come back. Been triaged as "rick ain't gonna make it 5 times". 3 cancers. 30 surgeries encompassing over 20 breaks and fractures including shattered pelvis. My pelvis wasn't fixed because, you guessed it, rick was dying so no need to put him thru the firther trauma of surgery. Month later I was advised I would never walk. "Get used to it". Medical care has come a long way since 1978. Bout as much as from the Civil War until then, feels like. Well sir, I meant to quit way back there. Nobody wants to hear this stuff but doc says this is therapy for me so just send me a bill for your time. I seldom talk to anyone, people I've worked with are mostly gone and in my lines of work it was best not to get that friendly anyway. Have one former Marine/police officer I talk to but he's bout like me so even we seldom talk and we have some shared/bad experiences. Glad to have found your channel and I'll try to ease up on commenting. Appreciate the replys. If you check this channel name or Google it just call the business number and my wife, Tutti, will answer. She can givecyounmy number if you like. Or email. Or psychic hotline if I've left the building. Huh, lookin up the page this is not as bad as I usually do. Hope you mention the AR safety thing. Telling my mistake is ok also. Mite save someone else the stress. Just remembered......There was one time I got knocked over an embankment by blast pressure wave and pulled off a round that I was about to put out if that counts. It went straight up. At least muzzle discipline is hammered into me. Life's a hoot sometimes. L8r.
I have multiple Hi Power pistols & S&W model 59s (59XX/69XX/45XX/40XX/10XX) gen 3s and most have the the magazine safety removed, however, in some cases I will opt grab one with the mag safety. It's not a bad thing to be able to drop that magazine kick it underneath a car or throw it some distance, and go to ground with a suspect, physically fight with said suspect and not worry about getting shot with your own pistol. The 69XXs &5906s make pretty good clubs too. They were like toting a brick of stainless steel around. I can also drop a Glock magazine, and rack out the last round on my belt with the rear sight. That does not work with the Novak sights found on late Model 59s. I also have Level II and Level III retention holster too. Some of those cost as much as the handgun.
Those holsters, as well as a lot of other LE-specific gear, are priced as they are only because the manufacturers believe departments are purchasing them.
I'm late to the party apologies. I should also mention that I live in the UK so I'm on the outside looking in. It seems to me that a magazine disconnect safety is a good thing . It allows a person to disable their firearm if they are about to lose it, and I don't think anyone is that good that they can't be caught off guard. If the magazine releases without knowing a person knowing it they are either a) Using the wrong holster b) Don't know the manual of arms of their firearm well enough, or not practicing enough c) Using a firearm that's too big or small for their hands d) Using a firearm with the magazine release in the wrong place for their hands. It's just an opinion.
Anything that could inadvertently cause a gun to go click instead of bang is a problem for me. Plus many modern pistols require a dry fire to field strip them, I don't want to also have to empty a mag to perform a field strip. Also everyone knows more parts mean more possible points of failure.
I do know of a brother Infantry Officers that shot a pneumatic money counting machine because he improperly cleared a 1911. However that was the last step in a comedy show.
@@hrfunk Years ago I was having lunch in a public park adjoining the place I worked. There is a Park Police Hq in the small park. One day as I was leaving I heard a loud BANG! The next day Park Maintenance was replacing the little tin can clearance barrel with the massive concrete top off a trash receptacle and patching a hole in the concrete wall. Geoff Who asked a Park Officer and was told, "No comment, but the Lieutenant blushed a bright red." (Detail note, the original clearance bucket was mounted on a stand at shoulder height, with only a slight downward angle to keep the sand in, the new system was placed in the ground, backed up by a small, blue green planet.)
Well, I don’t particularly like magazine disconnect safeties. But I have to say, you might be neutral on the subject, but you actually made a pretty convincing case for having them. Especially if someone is fighting to get the gun from you. Update - I still haven’t ordered the Apex trigger package for my SD9VE. I got cold feet. I read a ton of reviews on it. All said it made the trigger nicer. But a significant number said they started having periodic light primer strikes because of the lighter striker spring. One person said if you want to keep the gun 100% reliable for personal defense and not just a range toy to leave it stock. Now I’m not sure what to do.
You can always leave the stock striker spring in place and replace the trigger spring. The difference in trigger-pull weight will not be as dramatic but you should not have to worry about misfires.
hrfunk - thats a good idea! I think I will just order the spring kit which is much cheaper. I’ll install that minus the striker. If that makes a noticeable difference, I’ll order the trigger.
Good video. Clearer up the definition and debate on a magazine disconnect function. Seems as though a magazine disconnect is only a benefit in regard to the safety of the firearms owner in a conflict situation. Although unlikely, a magazine disconnect could be a detriment if a firearms owner is being attacked by several aggressors and has to reload in the middle of a firefight. Again, the complete safety of a firearm lies solely on the responsibility of the user. I don't think that states like California requiring a magazine disconnect on firearms intended for firearms owners to be attacked on a regular and possibly disarmed. So, the need for a magazine disconnect on the firearm is almost common sense. But more-so; a firearms owner should have the proper training to be able to assess his/her environment and any situation and thus keep from being a target or a potential victim.
Not generally a fan of this feature but there are times I feel it’s useful. If you were to arm teachers or other staff in certain locations, the firearm would be “safe” if stolen or forcibly removed. A teacher could keep a magazine in their pocket and even if overpowered, accessing the magazine from their pocket would be very difficult. For home defense, it also adds an additional level of safety. Again, not my choice but not an unreasonable option for some.
Good evening hrfunk for me I disabled the mag disconnect on my Browning Hi Power 9MM it is my preference I really don't like it just for mag changes alone in a hostile environment if I need a safety I will use the manual safety for me it's just overkill .
As for the French Military when you look back to those times of poor military training poor safety handling skills or none at all yeah I understand why they wanted that in those times. Again you should rely on your safety rules main one trigger off the finger until your ready to fire!
All semi auto pistols are flawed from the start. They cause shooters to waste ammunition and become dependent on more rounds and less accuracy causing a false sense of security and jam up at the most critical moments. The S&W model 10 was perfection in a handgun for self defense and still the most reliable made to this day. I will take practice, accuracy and dependability over more rounds any day. Of course I have only been handling firearms a tad over 50 years so my opinion is very humble and by no means expert.
@@richardkluesek4301 Provided you actually hit what you are aiming at and it doesn't jam. There is a video somewhere on RU-vid I saw a couple of years ago where someone's 9 mm jammed and he threw it at the attacker and ran, it was very enlighlening.
@@spiritualawakenings6251 Remember those old black & white 1950s tv shows, Westerns or cops 'n robbers, where the villains would shoot their revolvers empty and then throw them at the good guys ?
@@richardkluesek4301 Sure do, tbey were very entertaining for the day but very unrealistic. I prefer the modern day stuff caught on security cams, body cams, dash, cams and such. But I can say one good thing about semi autos, a lot of lives have been saved by jams you should check those out, sometimes it is the bad guys. You should check out the video where the cop shot himself doing a class in front of the class and camera while holstering his glock. And there is another where a cop shot himself in the hand at a gun store. Not to mention the cop in an elevator with his wife and shot himself holstering his semi auto. Either way hopefully Joe will get elected and do away with all these dangerous high capacity assault weapons including the handguns. After all an AR-15 weighs as much as 10 boxes and shoots those big 50 cal bullets and are automatic to boot.
Hi Howard, i have not committed lately but i still enjoy your content, as i live in Canada we are not allowed to defend our lives with firearms, but i prefer a mag disconnect , with the mag out you still have to check the chamber to make sure the firearm is safe.
I don't get the logic of the mag discon.....if you're reloading, it's OVERWHELMINGLY because you're out of rounds and the slide has locked back, so you couldnt fire a round until a fresh mag is inserted anyway ANYWAY. I did mine because of the SIGNIFICANT affect it has on the trigger feel. No more jagged grittiness.
@@hrfunk Sorry, the BHP. I understand the intention of the design and it's inclusion at the behest request of the French military. I suppose it makes sense IF it's more likely to need the gun NOT to fire a chambered round during a struggle where the mag was released. Im just thinking of an accidental mag malfunction/release and the only chance one has is that single chambered round. As you said, I guess it comes to preference, and the fact that it's so easily removed makes it a non issue for those of us who prefer it gone. I suppose better to include a potential safety feature and be able to remove it in 5 min, than never to include it and lose the option. Thanks for responding sir, appreciate your vids!
