Gentlemen, Thank you so much for doing this episode of the ICP. There are a lot of nervous people who have waited and waited only to feel as though their hopes have been squashed. I never lost faith that Marco and the team at ICA would find a way to make it all happen, as well as calm some very jittery nerves. Well done guys. Thank you so much.-Joe
This was very informative. It was great to hear the clarification that the circolare/memorandum of the Ministry is not legally binding and but rather a directive to Italian Public Offices and that it does not impact court cases involving Italian citizenship by descent. The “minor ruling” of the Supreme Court of Cassazione has been upheld in the Lower Courts of Torino, Teramo, and L’Aquila. While it is true that court cases outside of Rome in which the minor issue is present are still being won the Supreme Court ruling is having an impact. Before proceeding in Court with a minor issue it’s best to see if such cases have been denied in the respective provincial court and if so if more than one judge ruled in this manner.
I am in the process of getting my Italian citizenship by descent and unfortunately this new circoloare applies to me. However, I am using ICA and they are unbelievably on top of things. I have worked with Lisa and now with Selene and they are incredible. I do not feel worried at the moment because I know I have options and I have so much confidence in the expertise of the people at ICA. Lisa and Selene, you are absolute superstars. Sono davvero grata di avervi trovato. Grazie mille per tutto. 🙏🤩🥰
Thank you Marco and Rafael.... your podcast is so helpful. I have come so close to sending in all my documents to my DC consulate and the Minor Issue has sent me spinning. I feel positive that IDC will find a new route for me to apply.... probably through the court. My advisor, Erika has been an amazing advisor through this process and Marco and Giulia... you are all very skilled in your expertise! Thank you. Donna
Maybe some questions to answer for the next episode. I am curious about ICA's stance for those with ongoing "minor issue" applications at consulates. Should we withdraw our pending applications? Additionally, for those recently declined by a consulate due to a 'minor issue,' can they still pursue a court case? Are there any ramifications for applying via court after a consulate rejection? Finally, does being rejected by a consulate for a minor issue affect our ability to apply through the courts? Always appreciate your content, thanks!
We were unable to get an appt at the Chicago Consulate and so ICA is pursuing our case through the Italian courts. We have this "Minor Issue" so fingers crossed!!! Chiara is awesome, BTW!
Felt like a punch in the gut when I heard this as I was gathering my documents. Mother born in Italy, naturalized in the US in Feb 1985...just 10 months before my 18th birthday of the same year. Now my line is cut. My three older siblings, that are close in age, all qualify though. In fact, one of my sibs already obtained her Italian citizenship. Now I feel like I am not a part of my own immediate family. Awful feeling, but I will move on, of course. Just sucks to feel left out.
Although it’s clear to me, when Attorney Permunian says “an ancestor became naturalized,” he should have been more specific as “naturalized in a foreign Country such as the US or Argentina.”
I was recognize an Italian citizen 20 years ago through the Italian consulate in Houston, Texas. Once I presented my documents by mail, I was recognized in less than 4 weeks. My case was rather simple. Grandparents born in Italy, migrated to the United States. My parents were born in the United States while my grandparents were still Italian citizens. Hence, Italian citizenship was passed on to my parents, and then to me, Unfortunately, today in Italy there seems to be a movement to restrict recognition of Italian citizenship de Jure sanguinis and make it more difficult because of political and cultural reasons. Why are children of foreigners born and raised in Italy denied Italian citizenship until they are 18 or 19 years old, while ancestors of Italian citizens who have never been to Italy, who do not speak Italian or know very much about Italy are automatically Italian citizens? I understand there is a proposed referendum to restrict and change Italian citizenship laws.
If you've been waiting that long then you could probably file a court case instead. Might be more expensive but could be a blessing in disguise. Best of luck to you!
Those who have to switch from the great-grandfather's line because he naturalized while your grandfather was still a minor, to the great-grandmother, that may put you in the 1948 case situation since the female line wasn't recognized. I know you have some videos on 1948 cases but it would be good to mention that and give any updated info on what to do if that's the case.
Within a week of the new minor ruling on October 3, 2024, US consulates have already started to reject new applications where a naturalization occurred when the next in line was a minor. The same will now be true for anyone who applies directly at a comune in Italy. That is why ICA (as well as other service providers) are going to now pivot and focus primarily on getting clients to go through a court if they have a minor issue case or valid 1948 case. Yes, the judiciary in Italy does not have to follow this ruling. Yet. This video is ignoring the elephant in the room regarding what this means for people who want to apply in Italy or at their consulate. Those particular routes to dual citizenship are now closed if you have a minor issue in your line of ascent. The courts may not be as great an option as ICA is suggesting here. Some regional courts including Rome, Palermo and Messina have already rejected cases with the minor issue. It will be a matter of time for us to see how other regional Italian courts will rule in light of the Interior Ministry's new interpretation of the 1912 law. Bottom line, going through Italian courts is expensive so be sure you've got a clean case without any minor issue.
I don't think people have to completely avoid filing minor cases in court. As long as a good number of cases are successful and people are aware that it is not a guarantee, some people are still willing to take that risk and spend that money to try. Any decent lawyer in this space will give you a success estimation before proceding.
I am currently going through the process with ICA and my appointment was supposed to be Oct, 24th. This is so upsetting. But, I am confident this is just a bump in the road.
Most likely if you have a minor issue your application will be rejected. This is due to a change in the interpretaion of the 1912 ruling. Your fine if you don't have the minor issue.
I found this to be a little confusing. Are you saying that in the case where, example, the Italian born grandfather was naturalized after birth of their child but before that child reached the age of 21, the chain is broken? If yes, this is being applied at consulates but not in intalian courts?
Yes, that is correct. It would impact applications submitted to consulates or the comune that have not yet been approved, but it is not a directive for the court system. Court judges are free to rule as they see fit and this would not be binding for the court. It is possible that some individual judges might look to that as a reason to reject, but that remains to be seen.
All 4 grandparents born in Sicily. Both parents born in USA. All grandparents naturalized while their children were under 21. My father obtained Italian citizenship in 2001. Can I still get citizenship or does the minor issue now prevent that?
QUESTION: When you apply for dual citizenship to a local court (1948 case) and you have more than one eligible ancestor - are you allowed to include multiple ancestors to see which one gets approved or must you apply using only one at a time???
You can only use one ancestor and your case is centred around proof of blood line for that ancestor. If you have more than one 1948 case ancestor and they are both equal (neither was a minor and you can easily get vital records for both), you might want to look at which regional court each would be filed in. Should have a lawyer look at both ancestors to see what they think.
Thanks for the clarity. I had just started working on the dual citizenship process before this minor ruling came out. Actually, prior to this ruling I had two paths I could pursue through both my maternal grandparents and was going to take the path through my grandfather's line. My grandfather was born in Italy in 1899 and immigrated to the US with his parents both born before 1861 in 1913 when my grandfather was a minor. Neither of this set of great grandparents ever naturalized, and my grandfather naturalized as an adult which I suspect was sometime after he married in 1926 my 18 year old US born grandmother who was a child of two Italian Immigrant parents that naturalized when she was a minor. My mother was US born in 1928, and I find it highly unlikely my grandfather naturalized before marriage as marrying my US born grandmother made that path easier. But, since they were only married two years when my mother was born, I also highly doubt my grandfather was naturalized before she was born but when she was still a minor. When I am able to track down my grandfather's naturalization documents I will have a better idea of my dual citizenship eligibility status. Again, thanks for sharing this info.
This is difficult to answer because it's in flux and also depends on the court. Overall, the success rate is still relatively high, however for certain courts (like Rome) the success rate is low. There are also some courts that were approving all of these cases but have now had some rejections relating to certain judges.
its a shame some companies who are in the business of Duel citizenship are blowing this off and saying "Don't worry it doesn't apply to you or the US consulates" They are afraid of the huge financial loss in there Niche Business coming down the road
@@fjbassani1 are they still saying not to worry? I’ve not heard from my service provider this past week and I’m getting really stressed about all of this.
@@Dolcedreamstizi My service provider was usually very good at getting back to me in the past but I had to leave 3 messages this week. In my case I will hopefully be able to go back to my Great grandfather who never naturalized . But I think they know there is no route forward with Minor cases now (thats why there ignoring my calls)
The service providers are also likely overwhelmed with consultations from people that have/would have filed through the admin path but are now trying to determine their court prospects.
Thank you for this episode. I started trying to locate documents near the end of 2020 and have been going back and forth with USCIS since then. I'm currently awaiting the Certificate of Non-Existence from USCIS since they are unable to locate final proof of naturalization for my father. If the certificate is issued to me, will I still be able to apply for Italian citizenship by descent? I did reach out to ICA in either August or September 2020 and Marco suggested I obtain naturalization information first before moving any further. Thank you!
If there are no records of naturalization and he didn't do anything that would result in him losing his Italian citizenship (like getting certain government jobs or joining the military), then I think you should be good to go. Might want to check with the comune to make sure that it doesn't have any records of him renouncing to them, but you may not need to. ICA can probably tell you if that's necessary.
In July of this year, my wife received confirmation of her Italian Citizenship by Descent (under the "old" rules...Her Maternal Grandfather Naturalized to the US AFTER my wife's mother's birth, but BEFORE her mother was an adult.) In order for our children (ages 24 and 26) to receive recognition of their Italian Citizenship by descent, will they be required to prove their connection just to their mother (my wife), or would they need to prove it all the way back to the Italian-born ancestor? If the latter is the case, I assume they would no longer be eligible.
*IF* she has Juris Sanguinis citizenship, that means she has always been an Italian citizen, since she was born. So when she gave birth, she was an Italian citizen. That is the standard understanding of JS citizenship, and I don't believe the Circolare in question changes that.
@@reillykat Thank you! This is my hope and my understanding, however I received a response from a JS consultant (not a lawyer) who thinks our adult children WILL have to go back to the original Italian-born ancestor, which would disqualify them under the new Circolare. Would love to hear what Marco says. It MAY just be too early for anyone to say definitively. 🙏
What about those that naturalized and then regained their citizenship and are now dual citizenships? If they regained their citizenship when their minor child was later an adult, can that adult child still become a citizen?
They don’t care look at the state of the county. What are they doing to create jobs and wealth? Nothing, they perpetuate a system that keeps Italy so ooor the young have to leave for pay/opportunites. The economy gets worse but they refuse to move forward and make process. Stick to the old ways, discriminate against first gen Italians simply to make less work in the embassies and consulates. This is apparently the Italian way
How would I go about applying at a court in Puglia? Could I apply at any court in the entire Puglia region or does it have to be the exact town they were from? And I am still not clear...if my mother naturalized in Canada before I was born but I was still a minor, is this how the line gets broken, or is it dependent on HER parents not having naturalized anywhere outside of Italy?
I think the Tribunale di Bari hears citizenship cases for anyone with a 1948 case involving an ancestor born in Puglia. I was going to file there, but the minor issue is making me attempt to work with a different, very complicated line (but that doesn't have the minor issue).
@@pumuckl0 Thanks! I'm trying. The main complication is that my GGM (first American-born ancestor) was born in Oklahoma before they had civil birth registration, and the church where she would have been baptized burned down when she was a child. I'm working on getting a declaratory judgment to remedy the lack of documentation for her birth, since OK doesn't issue delayed BCs for the deceased.
If the children are under the age of 18 get them registered in AIRE immediately. Otherwise, if they're older than 18, then unfortunately their line is cut as a result of the new interpretation of the 1912 ruling.
@@josephcozza3117 Please cite where the Circolare says this? It doesn't sound correct, since recognition of JS citizenship means a person has always been Italian, so when that person had kids, they were born to an Italian citizen.
@@Bessintheworld2 Have you been pursuing the 1948 case all along? We are pivoting to this approach, so any insight would be greatly appreciated (e.g. how long does it take to get on the court calendar?, is Permunian representing you through power of attorney?, etc) THANKS
looks like my GGF naturalized in 1931, gramps was born in 1919... GGM born 1893.. doesnt look like she ever filed to naturalize herself willingly.. she died in 1942. curious if im elgible through her if my GGF rules out under this new interpretation (not a law btw). Both are from Palermo.
@@neilmadero2816 It doesn't take very long to get on the court calendar and, in most cases, not very long to get a judge assigned to your case. But it can take quite a while for the hearing and for the judge to issue a ruling. Depends on which regional court it is and the court workloads. Mine was in Palermo and they have an extra step there between the initial hearing and the ruling that other courts don't seem to have. That added quite a bit of time to my case.
Hi I’m confused- my grandparents were born in Italy. My mother was born in the US. My grandparents got the US citizenship or naturalization in the US when my mother was under 21 years of age. Does that mean that I cannot apply for dual citizenship if my mother was over 21 years of age, does that make a difference?
If both parents of the minor are Italian and the mother's naturalization was involuntary, does the father's naturalization still cut the line? If not, do both consulates and courts allow this path?
I have to switch from my GF to my GM - now this becomes a 1948 case. My Mother was 32 ( born in 1923) when my GM naturalized - How much does it cost for a 1948 case if we have all of our documents? - Thank you
I had my Italian citzenship taken away when I married my husband in 1970 in England. in2001 I obtained my italian citzenship, my son would like to become italian but was told this was not possible he was born in 1976.
It will not affect people that have already been granted citizenship. However, if you have children or other family members that have not yet applied or have pending applications it could affect them.
I received my citizenship 2 years ago. Can I still pass it on to my daughter and 2 grandchildren? We were all born and live in Canada where getting a consulate appointment is very difficult.
So discriminating the law is - all your relatives live in Italy - cousins and aunts in Italy (1st cousins and grandparents) but denied when someone of 3 generations away from Italy can become a citizen. 2nd, in Canada most people were forced to naturalize after immigrating. At that time most people that immigrated after 1965 were concerned of their status in the country. Canada did not give any options. I am just ranting ... frustrating ... prior to 1991 anyone was Italian regardless of this law and probably on a visit to Italy you will find out that the carabinieri stop you at the airport if you are 18 and above to you know that you were called up for service but did show. Next thing you know, you are sent to the barracks. - slap in the face this law. // Once the this new law is out you are only given a time limit to reestablish your citizenship collecting documents from 3-4 different communes (some people did move around a lot especially military families or who were part of the military) one of those places doesn't submit your documents in time, the consulate closes the door and refuses to make another appointment with - REFUSES - that is shady - we are talking about a person who is born and raised there, denied while the commune whom track your whereabouts doesn't get any info from the consulate and loses all trace. Sorry for my ranting, I have more to say - but i'll stop.
So, this is good news for some of us? There should be a LOT of cancellations at the embassy very soon, right? The circolare doesn't affect me, so i should be able to get a consulate appointment much sooner? Anyone have an idea about this, or any experience at the consulate since October 3?
Marco is being ethically questionable right now by releasing this. He should be making it well known that minor issue rejections have been popping up at multiple courts now like Rome, Messina, L’Aquila, Palermo, and Ancona. He should have shared the risk involved, otherwise it seems as he’s preying on people’s hopes here.
@@garyramey9221 He is downplaying the trend that’s been rising in regional courts since before the circolare. He is not sharing the full story like he should be doing. Don’t trust this firm 100%, they have a personal and financial agenda in sharing this glossed over, overly optimistic information.
Wait.. can someone help me understand. My great grandpa was born in 1883, didn’t declare intention to become a USA citizen until 1925. He was 41 at the time. I think it took several more years before he was actually naturalized. My grandpa was born in 1919, and then my dad 1969. Is the minor issue with my Great Grandpa or his son who was born in 1919? Thanks! Was planning to retire there guess they don’t want my tax money…. Guess the lawyer on this channel won’t have to much work anymore 😅
The minor issue is with your 1919 Grandpa, depending on when your Great Grandpa actually naturalized (not the intention to, but the actual moment he became naturalized past 1925 -- if your Grandpa was under 21 at that specific moment, then it's a minor issue).
@@jma.87nobody seems to actually say if it’s generational. It is last Italian born descendant, no? It your GGF Italian born did not naturalize when anyone was a minor, but GF UK born doesn’t, then F UK born naturalized US when son was a minor, it has no effect? It’s only the LIRA who immigrated from Italy.
There are ways to do this that make more sense. Allow JS citizenship. But require applicants to have a certain net worth or income to apply. That way the Italy could ensure that the people applying are doing it for the love of the country/culture and not economic reasons.
Rafael & Marco, are you seeing an increase in enforcement of the B1 language test or 1 year residency aspects of the new ruling? Or is it too soon to tell.
Oh yes because the Italian government always has the people at heart lol. The Italian government is broken in many ways let’s be honest. Bureaucracy and politics in Italy are terrible. With that said, this new rule ( not law) is being misinterpreted greatly by everyone. I’m a minor case and my attorney said this will not affect me since we will be going through the court. This only blocks an avenue for minor cases such as going through the consulate/municipality and this is only so that they can catch up on all the backlog they have. Since Covid, they received over 10,000 cases/applications which Italy was no prepared to handle and still isn’t. This rule will allow them to halt new cases/applications so they can catch up. I believe once they do catch up, this rule will be removed. If that makes sense.
If I was born in 1986 and my mother naturalized in 1987, does that mean I don’t qualify anymore? That is absurd since I never gave up my citizenship of Italy . If I had the option , I would renounce my US citizenship and accept my Italian one
You don't qualify anymore unless you have another family member that you can go through. Was your father also Italian? If so, when did he naturalize? If you live in one of the places in the US where it is impossible to get a consulate appointment, you might be able to use that reasoning to get a court case going, but you would need to consult a lawyer on that.
So far , the attorneys I have contacted en Sicily ( where my parents were from), stated that the judges are not following that ruling and that minor cases are still being approved. I’m still going to apply anyways. I’m sure that that ruling will not survive for long as it is absurd
It doesn't affect them yet. This does not apply to the courts and each judge can rule as they see fit. It's possible that in the future the courts could align more with this interpretation, but that's just speculation.
At this time it's up to the judge to decide if they want to apply the ruling or not. If you have a 1948 case and the next in line was an adult, there is no issue. If the next in line was a minor, it's at the mercy of the court. There has been a mixed bag of acceptances and rejections since the first ruling in 2023.
The new ‘Minor’ rule interpretation handed down is still confusing to me. Does it affect a 1948 case of the maternal line of a great grandmother automatically naturalized (before 1922) through marriage? This has me holding my breath…🫣
@@evansshadow9018 yes, of course. Thanks 👍 but I was thinking the channel’s attorney, Marco, might share a little more on the maternal line that never naturalized - does the new Minor rule affect that pathway (?). Maybe there’s a bunch of applicants like me and it’ warrants a little more clarification. Maybe Rafael can share his opinion too.
@@salvatoreemma why would the minor rule affect you if she never naturalized? Minor issue is for ancestors who naturalized, not those who never naturalized
Hi I’m confused- my grandparents were born in Italy. My mother was born in the US. My grandparents got the US citizenship or naturalization in the US when my mother was under 21 years of age. Does that mean that I cannot apply for dual citizenship if my mother was over 21 years of age, does that make a difference?
I believe if your grandparents became U.S. citizens while your mom didn't yet reach 21, you can't get dual citizenship. You can't apply. But it's best to hire a lawyer. That's what I did. My lawyer knew about this issue a long time ago and we used my great-grandparent that wasn't naturalized until my grandfather was over 21 years old. Most people don't want to buy professional advice and they like to "go cheap" and get all of their information from facebook groups or some other place. Just hire an attorney. I've seen people waste years doing it themselves, only to now find out they are locked out due to this minor issue, when they could have already had citizenship if they used an attorney. Remember, the most expensive things in life are free.
As of right now, the Minor Issue ruling states that if your mother was under 21 when her (Italian citizen) parents naturalized, your lines are unfortunately cut. If your mother was over 21, you can still pursue your italian citizenship by descent.
