Making it harder on OSR-selves // ShadowDark Review & Analysis 

I'm aware the darkness was too much on the video!!! Lol, it was me trying to do a bit dimmer lighting as a gag while also not being familiar with the ISO settings on a new camera.

Geopolitical Strategist here. Don't get me started about the CIA.

Doing some needed heavy lifting here, and I appreciate the work put into the script and interviews. Not sure if you already had some timestamping planned but here goes, just in case: 0:00 - Intro to Shadowdark & framing the discussion 3:40 - Shadowdark system overview 15:48 - OSR definition discussion begins 18:58 - Creators: definition of OSR 25:57 - Back to the OSR discussion, beginning with some history 29:41 - Examination of "right wing" elements in the hobby 30:22 - Creators: wider TTRPG community's opinions of the OSR 39:24 - How TTRPGs talk about themselves

Shadowdark RPG is damn awesome. For anyone who didn't back it, books will be available soon. Check the Arcane Library.

When I open up this book I get the same nostalgic feeling I do when I open up B/X or Becmi. The aesthetic fits my flavor of TTRPG gritty survival fantasy. Kelsey did a great job making this game accessible for different ages. The spells aren’t usually more than a paragraph in description and monsters are classic OSR in theme and style. This means you can use it in any OSR, TSR, AD&D module with very little work. We just used it for Keep on the Boardlands and I plan on using it for Goodman Game Lost City. Simplicity is not bad when it done well and Kelsey nat 20’d this one.

Really enjoying this coverage and review of non-DND TTRPGs! Proud backer and owner of ShadowDark!

Spot on about Shadowdark as an onboarding game! Coworkers have asked me to run DnD for them and I was going to use Shadowdark because I think it's a great intro.

WOW! Fantastic review and RPG Commentary. And your closing statement is the bow on top, "In a world were everyone seems to want to be a 5E clone, I would love to see more games dare to be a Shadowdark". BRAVO!

I was not prepared for a video of this caliber, but I'm glad you covered ShadowDark, cause I've always been curious of it since I'd been hearing a lot about it in the background. Thanks for doing all this coverage. It's helping expand my potato brain with knowledge.

The coffee moment....just...nice.

So happy I backed this, cannot wait to get into the book itself. I loved the Quickstart, and Kelsey is amazing.

I backed this as a full digital backer but I am deeply, deeply sad I didn't back the physical copy. I'm going to be buying the physical book as soon as it's available again. The DM tools are by far my favorite part, this is what I WANTED from a "Dungeon Master's Guide" but, edition after edition, never actually got. If you are a new gamemaster and want to learn how to play and run TTRPGs, Shadowdark was written for you. It will teach you things and give you tools that will be applicable for your whole gaming lifetime. I wish I had it 30 years ago.

It'd be cool to see more videos like this both explaining and exploring the different little niche areas of the ttrpg space. There are nu-sr and all sorts of other acronyms for games out there too. Excellent video.

Excellent points regarding comparison to 5e. In my own review, I resisted the idea of saying, "This is a way to get 5e players into OSR." However, I did compare Shadowdark to Basic D&D... recommending Shadowdark as a potential entry-level game for "more robust games." I have to admit that one of my reasons for doing that was a way to still include D&D on my thumbnail. You're absolutely right. Even content creators (not only game designers) are still beholden to this 5e first mentality. I like 5e and I play 5e, but I also want to talk about all the other cool games out there... Games I love. Your point helped me recognize that it's still difficult to think outside the 5e box... even when I was thinking outside the 5e box. PS- As an old gamer, I appreciated the "...not all grognards are bigots" and literally laughed out loud. PPS- This was hands down the best discussion of the OSR that I've seen. Great job!

Hey, grognard here. Started with 5e ended up with some bad groups. And found a style of play that interests me and just lost interest in 5e. I dont like being an action hero or running for them i like weak characters that need to claw and scratch at the walls to survive. And the community ive slowly brought up using mothership rpg among many others. As a warning though this is not for everyone, find your own path and try everything till you find something you really like and keep to it.

"Measurement barriers" dnd is straight up non-Euclidean in its movements, where spheres are not round, and cubes are spheres if they are aligned, or monstrosities distorted beyond human comprehension if if not. A near/far system sounds nice

Good thing you have a lot of good things to say. Once I saw that the lightning wasn't going to get any better, I went into radio mode.

Just a note on over-acronymization, it’s totally a problem in onboarding new people to fighting games as well. People put together the fighting game glossary to try and help, but sometimes I think it might just be more intimidating.

Solid video, my only comment would be you should have had a flickering "torch" (LED candle, maybe) giving you some front lighting - would both improve the lighting on the video and give you a fun visual illustration of the torch timer mechanic. 😄

Time to download more design directly into my brain!!! Love this content so much, really scratching an itch for me. Also I really appreciate you starting out with the review, not burying the lead, and then going into the osr material.

Shouting out the artists in the review was great.

Oh my word, thank you, thank you, thank you! Both for the Shadowdark run through and for the really helpful explainer on OSR. 👏 I backed Shadowdark but haven't cracked open my copy yet. Now I am excited to again. Whilst I waited for Shadowdark to arrive I tried to get my head around OSR. As you say, it is impenetrable, esoteric and offputting. Or it was. Now, thanks your explanation I finally understand, so thank you for this! I hope it gets lots more views, it deserves to. So thank you for a simple, straightforward clear explanation. 🙏 Incidentally, I initially played D&D in the 90's (AD&D I think) but moved and couldn't find another group. It's only in this last year I have been able to pick up playing again. So I have played 'Old School' (if that includes AD&D of the 90's, I believe it does) and I have played 5e, but I have not played or experienced the interim developments. That being so... honestly they feel like now they should qualify as different games with very different aims. Different enoigh that people should be able to enjoy either or both, each on its own merits and for the different play experiences. Either can be good with the right group and a good DM. If Shadowdark makes it easier for new DMs to onboard... yes I agree with you. Time for designers, players, reviewers, *everybody* to stop viewing all RPGs through the lens of one. We'd all be better off for it.

Damn that was a thoroughly well reasoned and even handed video. As an OSR nut, this is probably my favorite video you've made.

By the way the original fantasy guide book that became the white box D&D books is not just Chainmail. Chainmail was used for resolving combat rather than flip a coin or play Scissors, Paper & Stone. There are two versions of the game also, one written by Gary and one from Dave.

9:03 LOL “sit down and sell coffee!!” 😂

You nailed it. I have being playing since 13 yo (i am almost 39) with some years narrating Werewolf. At the moment I am gming AFF2e for my family (wife, her 2 early teen sons, one of them low spectrum authist, and her nephew), and I am planning to migrate to Shadowdark in a few months. The feeling I get from Shadowdark is the same from those long forgotten years when I started my adventures, where you started as a farming boy and ended up as a corps... err a local hero striving to buy a keep, a tower, or an inn and retire. The feeling from Forgotten Realms in 3.5 where in every corner you could find an Archmage gave me the sense that I was playing some power fantasy stravaganza (4e and 5e just confirmed that the feeling was right). Keep it simple, keep it fun. (thank you Kelsey). You explained it very elegantly in this video.

One point I think you either missed, or maybe just not emphasized enough: ShadowDark is so much fun to play. I ran a few session to my former-D&D-now-Pathfinder group and we had a blast! ShadowDark’s magic system is unpredictable but it does not feel unfair, it is just slightly unreliable. The torch mechanic adds some welcome tension to exploration/dungeon delving. Overall the game is simple to play, simple to run but it does not feel like you are missing something from 5e, on the contrary, it feels more immersive than 5e - or at least our Shadowdark game felt more immersive than most 5e sessions we played.

I don't even need to wait for the video to finish. This is great. Thanks so much for covering all of this.

shadowdark has a players handbook avaible free online as a pdf

I love this game because it's not a restating of the original D&D, bit it captures its feel, thoughts from a 60+ gamer nerd.

Great video! Thanks for covering OSR . 🎉

I ran across shadow dark earlier this week, and have a seat in a game tomorrow. Watched several review videos… This one was remarkably good.

Amazing video, i love the deepdive!

Theres lots of cool people in osr too! Im in a lot of osr spaces and most people are chill if not progressive themselves

You continue to be a delight, Taron. Great work on this video, you may have convinced my gaming group to finally put down OSE and to give this game a try! ~d.fx

Bob's descriptions were perfect

Just ordered my hard copy and GM screen super excited

Have you done city of mist? There was a lot of hype for it but I feel like it died down on release.

My SECOND DM had a policy that, years later, I can state more simply than he did: If you want to sit down and play at this table, you're going to be respectful to anyone else who does … or you're going to find another table. If that's a problem for the group, then I'm going to find another table. We're gaming groups, not therapy groups. We give folks a shot regardless of what we think we know about them, no pre-judgment. We are polite. And we don't needle them over the stupid crap we are pretty sure they believe. If they wanna grow a little, fine, whatever. But if they can't or won't stop treating people like shit at the table, we'll politely insist that they find another, and we won't care whether another table will have them. The "OSR" games are just games. And the people who play them are just people. Some of 'em are really good. Some totally suck. Don't let the loudest dicks in the room steer you toward or away from anything. Check it out and see if you have fun playing it. If you do, play more. If not, there's other games within the space or outside of it. If you're at the wrong table, there are others.

I am new to gaming. Started in my 40s. OSR is appealing bc it’s less crunchy and more freestyle.

Awesome!

I love shadowdark and felt happy when it got so much praise from everyone I watched. I enjoy the game steered away from politics and decided to just be a game and I love all the rules. The only rule I didn't vibe with was one you could easily handwave and it's not having retainers and what not. But like I said that one felt more like a suggestion then a hard rule. If anyone is reading this and takes it seriously I would seriously suggest reading the book at the least. If not play it

My crew played 2nd ed and loved it... But after all the differing genres and mechanics that have come after, we have reticent to go back to this style (even if we find MorkBorg, Old Schl Essentials, etc...) to be really well written and fun . Plus it's hard to get thru all the shit to choose from, including ShadowDark.

Great video

Shadowdark looks really cool. like a modern OS game, great accessibility, with trappings of older games and newer games alike, all mashed into one cool package. I had just gotten into OSE when the kickstarter came out, so I didn't back it though and who knows if I'll wind up trying it at all, lol. But I have plenty of RPG books I haven't read so maybe I'll put it on my shelf too.

Hear! Hear!

17:23 - What are you talking about?! The best problems are the one you solve with a tongue, the more movement it takes the better I say. Like getting to the center of a lolly pop, working your way through an ice cream cone, or tying a cherry stem into a knot.

Great video! That said, if i could offer some video tips, if you ever do a video with a very dark background, don't use a blue lighting. Makes it neer impossible to make out anything. I would suggest trying to replicate a candle light lighting. It would be less strenuous on the eyes and possibly match what seems to be the intended vibe.

I think it would be good to call OSR "Old School Renaissance" because the day will come when it is old enough to have an "OS2R" or "Old School Renaissance Revival." ;)

Well said, sir!

I never really had any interest in the OSR and ADnD stuff because there was this idea to me that it was an older iteration of dnd as i know it. Until recently i realized just how different dnd became after 3e & 3.5e. I think of the OSR as a way of thinking. Stop looking at your character sheet searching for a "DM, may I?" and think of a solution for the problem at hand. Your character sheet doesnt equal everything you can do. Being weak and easy to kill forces you to think because you arent a hammer and every problem isnt a nail. I like the idea of fostering that kind of creativity and immersion into the game.

I spent the last few years thinking it was old school rules

This video is giving the same quality and research that I would expect from some of my favorite video essayists. I am really impressed. Subscribed. I found the OSR recently and to me it offers a series of take what you want tools to build interesting, bespoke and challenging games that focus on that aspect of TTRPGs that separates them from other games (video games, board games) endless player choice. There is something so thrilling in building sessions where not only do I not know how my players will surprise me (a trope of a crazy party going off the rails) but knowing there are no rails. There is nothing but surprise. Anything my players do will surprise me because I have no prescriptive way through. The deadly nature of the games don't encourage death death death but encourage a healthy fear and solutions beyond just "I attack". Every session feels unique every problem causes real thought and discussion at the table and every die roll feels that much more fraught as the weight of fate is magnified and character lives hang in the balance. I believe everyone should run an OSR game at least once.

“Go sell some coffee” lmfao

BUY SHADOWDARK NOW!

All that to say, this was just a great video

Excellent commentary on the Old-School Renaissance/Revival community and the hobby in general. I backed the recent Adventure Time project - I had no idea they wanted to do a different rules system but felt forced into D&D 5th edition. Such a shame that's where we're at right now.

I say this as someone who unironically still likes 5e: god am I so tired of people being too afraid to move away from 5e. Things like shadowdark, five torches deep, and hell even fantasy age are great for the community because even if they’re still chocolate, at least they let you choose between German and Belgian.

It's hard to see you in the video because I don't have dark vision.

Dark Roast lover here.

9:05 - Sit Down and Sell Coffee!

You see the die adds flavor to the coffee

You made lots of great points in this video, especially at the end

Nothing is more old-school than arguing about what the R stands for! 😂😂😂

Incredible video. Like you, I stayed away from OSR due to what I’d heard about bigots in the space. Now I’m deep into OSR, love the creative artistic hacker space aspect. When bigotry does present itself, the spaces I’ve been in have been quick to address it and put it down (shoutout to r/OSR). Largely I’ve found OSR space to be incredibly welcoming, inclusive, and friendly. I hope anyone who has any reservations about OSR gives it a shot.

Shadow Dark is just D&D 5e but simpler, and more of a focus on dungeon encounters. Not a bad thing, but I don't think it's anything earth-shattering. Playing it doesn't feel too different from playing 5e.

Snake Pliskin reviews Shadowdark, 🤘🤘🤘

Please turn up the lights.

Im have been playing more of the Nu-SR style of gaming. To each there own what they want to play.

*notices it's you in the dark* OH SHIT I thought this was an artistic thing you were doing with no camera

Rightwing culture warriors and even anti culture war nonsense people, or people with a relative conservative bent being attracted to OSR makes sense, since most of the mainstream has been totally co-op'ted by leftwing culture warriors. This sadly attracts some negative elements who are more there to use it for politics,(but thats even more prevalent in mainstream with popular things today) and people with actual extreme views who happind to be in ttrpg's(which is not as much an issue), The OSR is probably the bigger tent overall at this point. As for Shadowdark it was just a stroke of genius in multible ways.

I know the mame is literally saying "Without Light" twice but did you have to make the video so dark? I can hardly see you!

i feel this should have been two videos, come for the review, stay for the nerd rabit hole lol.

You probably should have turned on the lights after the intro.

Whoa, you talked to Bob *THE* Worldbuilder?!

So I guess he's sitting in the dark because it's Shadowdark? I understand the appeal of the gimmick but I'm afraid it makes it kind of difficult to watch.

Shadowdark uses the Advantage/Disadvantage system lifted straight from 5e. That tends to make reviewers lump into what might be called "5e splinter" style games. The Advantage system is identified with 5e. Simple little mechanic, but instantly makes your game like 5e if you use it

Btw, DCC RPG! 😆

For those concerned about OSR being full of right wing extremism, that's just slander, and has no basis in reality. However OSR is not left wing extremist either. The left wing does not have control over OSR creators, live plays, players, etc.. and that means that yes, you will encounter people with opinions that are different than you are used too when you hang out only with carefully curated critical role or wizards of the coast groups. Is this a bad thing? No, it's healthy, it's how societies should be. You will meet some assholes and you will meet some very wonderful people. What you will not get, is an echo chamber of leftwing opinion, forced diversity, lgbt celebrations, etc.. and trying to force that, or take over, or change the communities left and right wing acceptance will not be welcomed by the community. That being said, if you want to include any of those things in your OSR game, you are welcome to do it and people are generally supportive of you, so long as you aren't bringing your radical leftwing "I have to punch you nazis" attitude. You won't have a problem, and may even have the best TTRPG experience of your life, as the games are far more meaningful.

Oh no! 20:33. It's more likely for a PLAYER to DIE at the table in OSR? Brutal! Stick to 5e, it's safer for players... jokes.

My issue with OSR is that a lot of systems don't have a lot of player agency in terms of character development beyond class. I don't mean story-wise, but things like feats and abilities. I do think there can be a sweet spot because IMO a system like Pathfinder 2e can get overwhelming even at lower/mid levels with all the abilities. Systems that have potential are Heroes of Adventure, Low Fantasy Gaming (aka Tales of Argosa), Worlds Without Number. I'd love to see an official feat system for Shadowdark because I think Kelsey could do some interesting things in that regard.

Are the far right OSR players in the room with us now?

gate keeping is not a bad thing a gate keepers job was to keep bad things out of the village

Based beyond measure.

As a creator, it’s extremely disheartening to watch 5e supplement kickstarters (or D&D derivitives in general, like MCDM) explode to tens, or hundreds of thousands, or even millions, when my own thing using a different system struggles to even break 10k. It makes me feel very much like there’s no point in making something that doesn’t use 5e, the system du jour, becuase it feels like all people want is more content for the system they already play.

*accusations of racism towards anyone right of far left in the OSR* *ignores the plethora of horror story channels focused on racism, pedophilia, sexual assault, and problem players in 5e* Something, something, glass houses, something, something.

Hi Indestruco, only 10 minutes into your review, but sounds like this game is a story-centric game with light survival mechanics. Do you think this type of game is archetypal of OSR? If so I'm very curious why. Will continue watching but is extremely odd to me, being of a way more extreme war-game backround, where such survival mechanics are a matter of course.

11:30 - OH EGADS! The metric system is such a meme. You don't need to convert units that often, and even if you do it's really not that to get a calculator. And nobody actually uses a unit which is just one factor above or below another, whens the last time you've heard of a decimeter or a decameter? Miles are useful for things that are far away, Feet are useful for person size objects, Inches are useful for objects that you can hold. Gallons are useful because you can purchase that much milk or water, liters also easy to visualize, they even make quarts easy to buy, how big is a quart? a quarter! and my god- THEY MAKE CUPS THAT MEASURE CUPS! How handy! How about weight? We got two units, pounds and ounces and you really only need one or the other for any given task. Every unit has it's place, it a system that favors function over style. It isn't making things go into 10 (which is as perfectly arbitrary as 16 or 12 or 4 or 8) even if things don't fit and you don't have to slam latin at the front of every measurement. Imperial is the most useful measurement system ever devised and I will die on this hill!

I honestly think people don't need to buy books to enter into the rpg hobby space, you need paper pencils dice and an imagination to play rpgs. Products gate keep with financial pay walls that promise some magic solution to solving problems at the table. The biggest take away from the osr/osr for me has been this; Just make it up, stop buying things, and talk to your friends. Shadow dark looks great, and is for some, but it's just as much a waste of money as 5e and any other rpg product if you just use your imagination.

Thinking about my grognard coworker who has ran the same 2e campaign for 25 years and he removed the bioessentialist bullshit.

Great vid. Would've preferred interrogating more people with deep opinions on OSR rather than mostly showcasing how few know about it.

the osr is to ttrpgs what darksouls is to video games

When I talk to people who are 5th Edition players and have been for a long time they don’t like the OSR. Usually they don’t even understand what it is, they assume it is the Revival and that it is Advanced D&D. It is too complicated and you die from being breathed on too hard. That is what I have been overwhelmingly barraged with on the official D&D discord server. Then when I hop on over to the official OSR Discord server it’s all people who hate 5th Edition because everyone is too powerful and it is too overcomplicated. Basically the idea is that people who play OSR are enlightened and feel sorry for those stuck in D&D 5e territory.

How come you're so dark? I can barely see you. Is this on purpose? Did I miss something?

I'm not in agreement with that definition you gave of grognard. It just is a table top war game lover. I know many grognards who are progressive, modern-thinking folks. We need a new word for reactionary trolls within the grognard community, because grognard itself originally had no relationship with the bigotry.

It confused me why indistructaboy asked people about the osr that had little to no experiance with it and tried to hold that up as something meaningful. Aside from Ben Milton most had not experienced it from the inside. First time hearing about an alternative right osr connection. Sounds more like a "vegetarians are nazis because Hitler was a vegitarian," school of deductive reasoning. Will throw it out there that the osr has less video and you tube presence, but they run in blogs because old school. As Ben pointed out, they are a fairly large group, just the content does nor really lend itself to a video of top 10 broken d&d builds so much as blogs that contain detailed rules and articles on how to use them, so they are more steak less sizzle by their nature.

So. BECMl. Another setting-less dungeon crawler that has 2 boardgame elements (a timer for torches and a carousing mechanic). Everything is a copy of a copy.Gif

Ah yes if you dont want modern politcal stuff into your fantasy games or arent a out and out activists you are "far right" or something now. Yeah no most people are not political and most people are not hard leftist pushing thier stuff into everything video games, tv shows, movies etc... and more and more people tune out because of that stuff. Going around calling people names and insults is just sad and tbh idiotic. You dont like someone perosnally cool thats on you, you dont like people not being activists thats on you, you dont like normal people wanting to enjoy something outside of the real world that is on you. Again insulting people with these claims is a joke and disgusting. OSR is just games using mostly simple rules with no overcomplex stuff for no reason. Thats it. Also OSR games are some of the most played games around these days, you see it from sales from online stores and kickstarters/backerkits. Games like DCC are out before OSR but that in its self is an OSR type game as well if it came out today it would be called that. Hell of this stuff of moaning about what is "problamic" is so new and comes from people who only played one thing (5e the worst, most boring and dull DnD edition made) Just people you dont like some words or phrases used thats on you, just beause you dont like to have intresting dark storylines that is on you. None of this was an issue and it isnt an issue, its only pushed as one by some loud voices from a small group of people. If you need "safety tools" to play a game you need actual help with your mental issues. Most peopel do not want politcal trash in their games (modern day trash) we dont want progressive anything, we dont want far right or far left anything. Its one group of people trying to push their bs into everything.

Your sociopolitical mischaracterization of cryptography tells me that you have never been a member of the military.

Came here for shadow dark, got a video of a guy complaining about acronyms in the dark.