My personal gripe with powerscalers is that they sort characters like there's some intrinsic numerical "power level" and all characters with a larger power level beat characters with a lower power level. They ignore that fights aren't as simple as that. I'd like to hear about how specific powers interact with each other, not just how "strong" each character is.
Its not an issue with the scalers but usually what fighting in different verse results in , usually in the same verse characters would be balanced in stats to have a fight and it not ending instantly without a story , but in most ficitional stats since those characters weren't written to fight one character usually has a massive gap in one stat that makes it to where Mike Tyhson is fighting a truck , he has a lot of skill and strength but the fight still ends instantly
Bro we literally take experience and powers into account and what these two factors would mean for the fight. There are so many matches where one character is much stronger than the other but still loses because the other one has better abilities.
@@The_GabeYea feels like this vid and a lot of comments are strawmen Powerscalers don't do any of the things mentioned. In fact, I've seen those who hate powerscaling make dumber arguments for why xyz character wins
Also dunkey could solo you low diff, he beat bowsers bean burrito with his hands behind his back and blindfolded and it wasn’t even him his brother had the controller
That whole "what about Doomguy vs Kratos" bit near the end would actually be incredibly badass to watch as a fight. No powerscaling, no braindead takes. Just two gods beating the shit out of eachother.
Holy shit my brains actually buffering idk if that’s a bad thing or a good thing Ok so when you say this you mean have them fight with no like things like how long one of them been fighting and how smart they are with fighting or how many weapons and attacks they have that they could use as a advantage or how hard could this guy punch and how hard can this other guy punch it’s just…people fighting?
Honestly i just like to theorize about what would happen if two characters were to fight. Anyone that actually takes this powerscalling seriously needs to get a life fr.
3:02 i feel this point betrays a really shallow view of powerscalling. most decent powerscalling discussions I've come across aren't about going "this character wins 100% of the time" but rather analyzing how a fight is likely to go, which character has an advantage in what ways and what are each characters win conditions, usually concluding with a prediction on who would win. its not so different from analyzing a fight in an irl sport, which isn't that weird when you think how many shows build their tension of who could beat who in a fight. shore people are stupid about it and/or care to much but that shouldn't matter.
most powerscaling is two people in a youtube comments section or reddit post or vsbw screaming insults and d tier arguments at each other as to why their favorite d tier character wins a fight.
But that's not really a powerscaling, that's just two or more "something of a writer myself" types going at eachother to convince the other guy their vision of a fight is more appropriate. Compared to measuring pixels on screen (usual powerscaling stuff), this is actually fun and is a very fertile ground for creativity.
powerscalers are that one kid on the playground starting arguments with other kids about whether their dad could beat the other kid's dads in a fight, and haven't realized that no one likes them because of that and that no one valued their relationship with their father based on his ability to fight other kids dads.
I enjoy watching the death battle videos on RU-vid, not because I want to feel vindicated that my "favorite" character out of the two combatants won. I watch it because it's entertaining. Just like the show or media the characters come from, they're made for entertainment. I think that people who get their panties so far up their ass-crack because their favorite character didn't win a fictional fight really have some self-reflection they gotta do 😂
You really are one of the best youtubers I've discovered in a long time. It's honestly a miracle that I was even able to because of how small your channel is in comparison to people like high top films or cosmonaut. You make a lot of points and critiques that I've never given much thought to but at the same time fully agree with because of how logical your reasoning is, but even more so than that you have an appreciation for art that I can relate to and is a rare thing to find in most people. And as an aspiring writer, I want to say I appreciate and value your work and hope you continue to make these videos.
When I match up characters I typically do it with franchises I’m interested in or love, and usually I don’t focus on feats or well actualities it’s actually exactly what you say I imagine those characters going blow for blow and that’s fun as fuck especially if I’m listening to music
4:57 yea we call those anti feats and Inconsistences and we also applie logic to it. If a character was shown to be like speed of sound and stuid plot happens and gets beat up by a normal human they can still move at speed of sound the cw flash show does this a TON
This is why I find it so annoying when someone puts hours into a fan animation like Saitama vs All Might where theres an actual fight and the characters trade blows for our entertainment but theres 20 trillion dislikes on the video because people are whining about how saitama would one shot all might like bitch thats not the purpose of the video. People want to see characters struggle and dish it out not "nOoOoO it should have been no diff" unless its put in a comedic way like opm
Powerscaling is analyzing the combat related abilities a character has and what these abilities could mean for the character and their story. For example: How skilled is a certain character at fighting and how much experience do they have? How exactly do their powers function? What were the authors intentions? How does the character usually behave in battle? What are the weaknesses and how have they been exploited in the past or can they even be exploited in the first place? What kind of scenes would’ve logically not happened with the skills and abilities the character had at the time? What were some major inconsistencies? Is the story in need of a power creep? Etc. Why is powerscaling bad but other types of analyses (like analyzing a character’s relationship to others, analyzing their backstory, analyzing the world building or trauma based on past events) aren’t? That’s just ridiculous and very unfair to the people who actually put effort into these things. And the concept of powerscaling isn’t irrelevant or stupid at all and it’s actually quite important if fighting is a serious topic in your work of fiction. Example: You have a character named Josh, he is 19 years old and has only been boxing for half a year and barely won his debut fight. Then you have Jerome, he is 34, has won several boxing tourneys over the span of 6 years. Both sign up for their next tourney and get to fight each other. Josh beats Jerome easily. It made no logically sense and there was no way this could’ve happened. This is just bad writing. If the characters already established capabilities would’ve been taken into account Jerome would’ve steamrolled Josh in an instant, this fight threw everything that has been established for both out of the window. Sure, boxing is a unpredictable sport but in this scenario Josh should’ve just never taken the victory, especially because both were in pretty good conditions. It’s totally possible that a inferior character can win but it also has to be written in a way that makes actual sense. For example: We have Thomas who can punch holes into mountains and is an expert fighter. Then we have Melissa who has the ability to slow down time and cause illnesses to people. Both abilities can affect everything within a 1 mile radius. They end up fighting (distance between both is 40 metres) and Melissa wins, because she had the right tools to give her a reliable winning condition(doesn’t have to engage in combat and can fight from a very great distance, far beyond Thomas’ range while also immobilizing him completely), even though she was much weaker. And now to the part you probably have the most problems with: Versus debating. Here we just take our gathered informations and come up with hypothetical fight scenarios between two or more characters who’re often from different universes. The ones among us who can actually think know it leans more into the subjective side (since we’re trying to figure out what would logically happen in this made up hypothetical scenario) yet we still proceed to move on with it since it presents a good opportunity for interesting discussions about our favorite characters and it also allows us to learn a lot about other similar characters and also potentially get us to be interested in them. It can also be very entertaining. And the reason why a lot of us come up with these scenarios in the first place is because we want to have fun with the topic. Plus the discussions can get very long and extensive because of the vast informations there are and the amount of things that would be an important factor in a fight. And btw, versus debating isn’t the only crossuniverse discussion out there (there’s more than just character A vs. character B). Though I’ve gotta admit, there are a lot of people in our community who intentionally interpret certain things a character has done in a way to just make them look ridiculously strong while also thinking versus debating is 100% factual. They’re also getting very toxic very quickly. And the part with treating characters as blank stat sheets, yea that’s also a problem with the loud toxic members of our community, they’ve missed the point of it obviously. I know I can’t speak for all of us on this one but we as the powerscaling/versus debating community are aware that a characters ability to fight well isn’t all there is. Like already mentioned, there are a bunch of other things about them (like backstory, relationships, etc.). We aren’t morons and the things we’ve analyzed aren’t stupid as well. There are always some rotten apples in the community but it’s unfair to call us as a whole mindless idiots because of the actions of a selected few individuals in our community, who we aren’t really fond of ourselves. And the things we create as a community can be truly amazing too: - Make cool animations - Make nice battle scores - Art - Stories Etc. I‘m aware not everyone is gonna read the whole thing but this topic like many others needs to be explained in detail. And I’m sure RSG would totally go through the entire comment because he has the time to and was willing to talk about this topic in the past. I hope I did a good job explaining everything.
don't think you need an entire power scaling bible to figure out who wins. And if it's always the more powerful one who wins, then it's not interesting, it's predictable, it is literally adding systematic predictability to the writing. the actual fun part of writing protagonists beating much more powerful antagonists is figuring out how to make them do it believably, not a numbers game. Also, i didn't read your whole thing so idk if i'm just saying what you did, when you post something that big i'm just gonna assume what you said based on the first two sentences.
@@TheLegendaryLlama , yea I pretty much talked about having to write a weaker character winning in a believable way that makes sense. And I’ve talked about many different aspects in my post, so the first two lines don’t really give you a good overview :/
@@Umar-gw6fy , with some topic you just have to be very detailed. I can also boil it down for you: Powerscaling itself isn’t stupid or irrelevant because it analyzes the already established combat related abilities one has. And if fighting is a major factor in your work of fiction you’d need to watch out for the things you’ve established in the past for it to make sense. And versus debating itself is just a free time activity, we’re aware that we’re not 100% factual but decide to do it anyways because it presents us with interesting topics to discuss about. There are a lot of rotten apples in our community (everything thinks all of us are like them), who are basically being criticized in this video. Again, it’s very unfair to judge a entire group just based off a few dumb members of the community.
Not always there are abilities that make weaker character wins , like Merged Zamasu Vs Vegito Blue , since Zamasu is immortal and can adapt in power he wins or Gojo Vs Kaido where even if Kaido is stronger than Gojo and faster he can't bypass infinite that is automatically activated. Most fights end like that in power scaling because the characters weren't balanced to have an interesting fight which usually creates a large gap in stats that end the fight immediately @@TheLegendaryLlama
At the end of the video you still can power scale and like a character for what it stands for. Not because its strong but for their ideas. I may be somewhat of a powerscaller myself but not everything needs to be very strong for me to like it.
Exactly. It's childlike giddiness and Death Battle captures it well, with a big flashy animation always at the end they try their best to make look even and look hype, *even if the stats don't perfectly match up* At it's core powerscaling is innocent, but when given to every terminally online weirdo it can quickly get out of hand by people who take it way too seriously even though it's just a past time entertainment. The moment it stops being fueled by genuine glee and starts being fueled by the tone-deaf dick-measuring it stops being the powerscaling I like.
Hi, writer and powerscaler here. I'm not here to tell you "hey, you should enjoy power-scaling now >:(", if it's not your thing then it's not your thing. But I wanted to explain the perspective that goes into power-scaling, maybe so you can understand why it's blossomed into a dedicated sub-community. I know this will come across as a giant wall of text, but I did want to be thorough in explaining the community's perspective, and I hope you will take the time to read this regardless (though I understand if you won't, given near-20k subs means you get a lot of comments regularly (premature congrats on the 20k by the way!)) But first, the obligatory preamble that there are indeed really awful powerscalers. People who flock to a character (like Goku, Superman, Goku, Sonic, Goku, One Punch Man, GOKU!!!) with the sole intention of going ride or die with them and dismissively insisting that their character is a superior character because they can win in a fight, who make absolutely bullshit claims that do not line up with the narrative itself just to push a point (or, if their claim does line up with the narrative, being absolute obnoxious about it). We powerscalers ALSO hate these people. And when discussing the perspective of power-scaling, these frankly toxic people are getting dunked on too. Anyways, with that out of the way We know that a writer can make two characters do whatever they want. Heck, browse crossover fan-fiction and you'll definitely see RDR2 guy able to just shoot Thanos dead with no explanation (and I mean no offence to fan-fiction writers, the good ones are obviously good, and the bad ones are just having fun with a hobby and learning about it - definitely don't want to actually name any names). But the idea of power-scaling is to have a conversation with like minded people devoid of that writer's intent, to actually analyse what they can do, what they typically attempt to do, and parameters to smoothly work past some of the logistical issues. Feats, scaling, tiers, dimensional tiers (I'll get back to that last one), none of that is done with the intent of dropping these guys to stats on a stick (-ahem-, MOST of the time...), but rather to measure the best that a character is capable of within the context of that original story. We don't say that Dash can run at this specific number of speed for the purpose of reducing him to a number on a stick but rather to look at what he can do as a preexisting character. It's a way of analysing what they can do, and by extension a new way of looking into a story. In fact, people are more interested in discussing fights where there's actually a chance of victory for both sides, because then there's an actual discussion. There's also a subsection who do deliberately put characters on equal footing specifically to analyse their tools and options for a fight just to widen the gap on these discussions. We all know inconsistencies exist. You say they're the most objective form of criticism, and you're right. But they also exist everywhere, if you look deep enough into a story you WILL find an inconsistency. You found one with Metro Man in your tier list video before providing a rationalisation as to why, and then you ranked that character S tier because the inconsistency didn't interfere with the character's story even without the rationalisation. Powerscalers don't pretend inconsistencies don't exist, but just like how people willingly suspend their disbelief that a piece of fiction is fictional when they're watching it, we willingly suspend our disbelief when seeing these inconsistencies (in fact we have names for them, anti-feats for when it's a contradiction of the agreed best, and outliers when it's deemed too rare, inconsistent, and contradictory for what's otherwise their best capabilities). And to mention dimensional tiers. Yeah real humans cannot perceive beyond the 3rd dimension, but in many pieces of fiction there are higher dimensions than just 3rd. Dig in and some get to a silly number of dimensions like 11 dimensional. But those are the dimensions the story established (in fact ironically anything infinite and above is done with MORE intention on a writer's part (on average) than finite numbers specifically because a character only gets to those silly numbers BECAUSE a writer deemed so), and so to ignore them is to be inconsistent with the very idea of these characters. And what I wanted to save for last on purpose. It's not disrespectful to a writer to power-scale. I know Stan Lee's infamous quote, but Stan Lee's quote isn't made from a power-scaling perspective (where the argument and understanding of how a fight would likely go is the whole point). It's made from a writer's perspective (where they're just trying to tell stories man). Writers are making the story for people to engage with, and powerscalers are doing their power-scaling things as a part of engaging with the story. The methods differ, but it is ultimately no different than people making reviews, fan-fiction/fan-art, theories, lore dives, characterisation analysis, and so on so forth. Also, Stan Lee didn't just wake up one day and decided to target power-scaling, this is a result of people thinking these thoughts of who would win and then - instead of just, taking a deeper look into things - just went the lazy route and asked Stan Lee himself. Stan Lee got so many of these inane "who would win?" questions again and again, and being asked constantly that when the people could just use their brains for three seconds (even if they're stupid, using your brain is how one can become less stupid), I would get annoyed by that too. TL;DR We power-scale because we enjoy analysing these characters and what they can do within the context of their preexisting story, we know inconsistencies exist but try to analyse and enjoys these characters as best we can as a result, and it's one way of engaging with a story, all the same as all of these other ways of engaging. P.S. Given the subject of your videos was criticising inconsistencies in writing, it's no surprise that most of the powerscalers who actually responded (and tipped their hands as powerscalers rather than just addressing the video's points) are people who are either awful toxic people, or people who just couldn't comprehend that you weren't actually power-scaling and just missed the entire fucking point of the video, that's also gotta be awful to deal with.
You mention you're a writer yourself, but them also say powerscaling is about two people's conversation devoid of writers intent. You should know that "writer's intent" is just a special case of humans generally being unable to perceive information without interpreting it. It's not limited to actively trying to reach certain conclusion (although I come back to this point later), it happens subconsciously in the way, for example, how much weight you're giving to certain elements or what version of such you're inclined to chose over other interpretations. That's how fiction works - it's not just what writer shows, but also what readers see. The problem with tiers, feats and especially calculations is that there's no and can't be objectivity in powerscaling. There just can't. Because to be objectively means to be separate from subject experiencing the object, which goes against the very nature of fiction. You can try to argue that the variety of multiple perspectives on the matter let's us pull up the veil of subjectivity a bit and see things for what they are, similarly to scientific approach. But the problem is, it doesn't matter how many perspectives you have if they're all equally valid, if you don't have a way to measure them and discard those, how do I say, less "true". And you absolutely DO NOT have a measuring stick for that. All these tiers (especially hyper dimensional ones) and attempts at systematising feats and abilities are nothing more than arbitrary headcannons. Because different writers have different sense of scale and more importantly level of understanding for their stories. If one story has "5D" character and the other has "6D" one, why should we assume the cosmology of each setting is comparable to eachother, let alone that latter character will "solo no dif", when both writers have no idea how higher dimensions (according to our current scientific understanding) are supposed to work and just threw together a bunch of scientific gibberish to sound smart? One example of this I absolutely hate is "faster than light" speed. You can have a person with a straight face write a thesis on how they calculated characters speed as 500000000c based on how much distance they crossed in 1 second and definitely concluded said character is faster than the other. God forbid you remind them how c actually works and what reaching it means in physical sense. Another issue is inconsistencies. Yes, they exist pretty much everywhere, even in our own reality if we look at it on cosmic scale. But you can't just swat them away for your convenience. You have to take them into consideration as well, which is yet another variable dependent on person's interpretation. Speaking of, are most powerscaling conversations (I'm not even talking about "debates") really about both persons exploring the characters to determine a satisfying answers? At some point you going to make up your mind and try to convince the other person their conclusion is wrong or at least not full. Either that, or you'll have to leave the topic on "that depends/too many variables" every single time. Which usually isn't too satisfying. Ultimately, from the powerscaling umbrella, I think, the only thing worth spending your time or even arguing over is actually letting your imagination go wild. Doesn't matter who wins, lets just see what cool things we can do with these characters. But that doesn't feed one's ego, so most people spend time pointlessly arguing about pixels on screen.
@@kindlingking In 99.9% of cases you can't judge a writer's intent because in order to know that the writer has to straight up tell you. But in this very video RSG 2 straight up plays the Stan Lee clip regarding "who would beat who in a fight", that's a clear, inarguable statement of a writer's intent (in context). Saying that writer's intent is a reader's interpretation of events is just objectively wrong, that's a misinterpretation of a misinterpretation (people erroneously claim something is a writer's intent without proof, not realising that it's merely their interpretation). If engaging with fiction at all relies on interpretation, and for that reason powerscaling is inherently flawed, then does that mean that learning about the lore of a franchise is objectively flawed? That engaging with media on any level beyond "mindless consumption" is flawed because to do anything beyond that necessitates engaging with that media on any level beyond mindless consumption requires interpreting it in some fashion? I cannot agree with that notion. If any other interpretation is valid, then interpreting it in power scaling is equally valid as well. "arbitrary headcanons" - a headcanon is to make an assumption about something that you know for a fact is neither at all supported in canon nor contradicted by it. The whole idea of powerscaling is to try and present an argument - that is, a theory, something that may or may not be confirmed but (on paper, not always in practice) is supported (whether intentionally or not) in canon and isn't contradicted by it. And no, the writers won't always understand the science behind what they're doing. In fact very frequently it will be quite the opposite, but what does that matter? Should we discard anything that's present in the story just because the writer behind the story isn't a qualified scientist with multiple degrees in physics, theoretical physics, magnetism, engineering, biology, etc.? The story, once it's been written up, exists independently of the writer - my own stories that have been written up exist independently of me, despite me own thoughts and opinions on them. ftl. I get the pain of ftl travel being impossible. But you're focused on when a character is calculated by a power scaler to be ftl because of like, idk, laser dodging or smth. But isn't the problem exactly the same when a story explicitly designates a character as moving ftl? Are you going to say the story's wrong about its own setting and its own rules when it very explicitly says that? And if not, then why play by different rules when the story ultimately does that by (presumably) complete accident instead of with (provable) intent? "Inconsistencies" no offence, but this is the point that most shows that you haven't actually talked with many powerscalers about how the community handles powerscaling. Every powerscaler, on some level, is aware of this. Any powerscaling community you'll look into will be aware of "anti-feats" (a character displaying limitations that contradict their capabilities shown elsewhere) and "outliers" (a character displaying capabilities that contradict their limitations shown elsewhere), we KNOW inconsistencies exist. But to dismiss powerscaling because of this inconsistency is absurd, every story has inconsistencies independent of the lense you look it through. Look hard enough and you'll find a plot hole/retcon, or an inconsistent design, or the mic peeking in from the corner of the scene. Regarding debates, is that not the same as a regular theory? Random example, but aren't people who say that Endor is dead due to the Death Star exploding are making a theory? And, because they feel it's accurate, are trying to convince other people of the same thing? And people who disagree are then free to either not discuss or to bring up any counter-arguments they feel is necessary? It's not like power-scaling is unique at this exchange. And "too many variables" is once again another sign of not engaging with the powerscaling community. Any community is going to have their intial battle assumptions going in (usually listed somewhere or available on request), with any deviations from that norm being established. Like the Batman vs Megamind example in the vid itself, a common assumption for the fight would be to give them either none or a pre-established amount of time to prepare, have them both in a context that gives them motivation to fight the other (usually removing any unwillingness to kill though personally I disagree with this one), and what equipment they might have access to if relevant (i.e. establishing whether Megamind is able to use his death laser at all or if he isn't at the console needed to aim, charge, and fire it). Once those assumptions and parameters are set, you can then analyses their established intelligence in both inventing, creating, and information gathering to make an argument about what countermeasures they'd be able to develop, who could develop it quicker and better, and then capitalise on those countermeasures. Is there a point to power-scaling? idk, is there a point to making theories? Writing fan-fiction? Drawing fan-art? Talking with fiction to other people? And again, this isn't me asking you to suddenly start liking or enjoying powerscaling, it's just an ask to at least understand why they do what they do and how the act of powerscaling isn't fundamentally different than engaging with fiction in other methods.
@@numbug1234 wow, wow, I know I've wrote a slightly above average thesis, but please respond to what I actually said instead of putting words in my mouth. There's plenty to talk about already. My point about writer's intent has nothing to do with author statements, but rather with the nature of knowledge and human understanding of reality. Or in this case the difference between that and fiction, because powerscalers base their whole system on the assumption that they're basically the same and just like you can measure the speed of a car on a driveway you can likewise measure the speed of a fictional character doing something within their media depiction. Which is of course not true. The short answer is because fiction isn't real and can never be accurately measured. And the long answer, well, is an entire discussion in itself. Likewise, not treating powerscaling seriously ≠ not analysing the fiction at all (were did you even get that from?). The interpretative nature of fiction does not stop us from... making interpretations of it. But it does not allow us to build a scientific foundation from which we can objectively analyse it, because, as I said, there's no way to dismiss either interpretation as less truth that the other. Why was the flat Earth model discarded despite being convincing and agreeable (look around, everything is flat)? Because it couldn't explain the inconsistencies and was ultimately proven wrong experimentally by many voyages around the globe. Can you prove, for example, Diavolo's King Crimson (JoJo) removes the perception of time in a limited area? Can can't just ask Diavolo to come along and demonstrate us his ability in laboratory, can we? Because Diavolo's is a fruit of Hirohiko Araki's imagination. But can we really trust Araki and assume he perfectly crafted, calculated, explained and memorialized every single miniscule detail? Of course not, he was writing an action manga with cool characters having cool abilities, not building a sci-fi so hard, it's practically it's own Reality. And sure there are stories that do exactly that - go into meticulous details to make themselves feel as grounded and consistent as possible, but these are not ALL stories. In fact many go into the opposite direction by trying to be as random and ridiculous as possible. Yet we're supposed to treat them like they could be put at the same scale, let alone against eachother? That's how we end up with toon forces and other annoying headcanons. Speaking of (and also of inconsistencies). They should be acknowledged and incorporated into your analysis. I wasn't saying powerscaling should be discarded because of anything, but let's follow through that line. Powerscaling should be discarded not because inconsistencies exist and headcanons are bad. It should be discarded, because once you incorporate enough headcanons, you inevitably stray away from the essence of the story you claim to adhere to. And it should be discarded, because once enough "X, assuming we go with Y, but U, assuming we go with Z" are introduced to account for all inconsistencies, the very notion of powerscaling being all encompassing (which it has to be by definition) and conclusive falters. And the more assumptions you make the less solid your system becomes. And even in special cases, where, let's say there's absolutely nothing to assume and everything is known, there's still no foundation for comparison. Take two stories, one uses the universe as the entire all encompassing existence with everything within it and nothing outside of it (the very idea "outside of the universe" being impossible), the other instead follows an interpretation of multiverse theory, splitting it's existence into countless bubble universe spread across lets say branches of something like a cosmic tree. Both stories have gods which let's say display relatively the same feats and used in a similar way by story with both authors claiming them to be superior ultimate existences. So which gods are stronger? If you're going to start with "well, by definition multiverse is bigger than universe so the same would apply to gods of multiverse", let me remind you that our own scientific understanding of these concepts is vague and theoretical at best and within fiction authors can twist it pretty much any way they like - universe, multiverse, omniverse, etc. How are you going to compare two completely different and usually contradictory structures? Come up with headcanon to put both stories into the same setting and sorta marry both structures together? But would the resulting synthesis properly represent any of the original two stories? But really I don't think powerscaling should be discarded or anything, just not treating it as something serious would go a long way. This isn't a discipline, let alone scientific. It's conclusions are inherently subjective. And the nature of the process itself requires us to assume certain things and makes excuses to agree upon beforehand. But if you understand all of that and still find it fun, power to you. And trust me, I've spent plenty of time with powerscalers before realising how fruitless it is, and I understand you want to separate yourself from the more...let's say expressive powerscalers, but if you have to search far and wide to find a small group of "good" or "true" powerscalers, then maybe there's a big issue you can't just swat away with no true scotsman fallacy.
Listen man, I respect and understand the points you were making in this video, And I respect that, but please don't compare powerscalers to people who like cuties, even as a joke, that is insulting.
Fair argument, however, I like this fictional character more and have tied their ability to win in a fight to my ego and self-worth as a human being, so I will go out of my way to tell everyone that they can beat their favorites even if the context makes no sense and I end up devaluing the character I love by making them seem as nothing more than a big number and turning off a potential new fan as a result.
guys yoooo I discovered this super cool charachter his name is the fireman and he's boundless tier on the wersus battles wiki tiering system isn't that so cool guys guys what do you mean you don't care and don't know what that means guys why are you leaving the room guys guys?
Bro we literally create cool art, animations and music, you really think we’re just dumbasses who scream their lungs out over some dumb yt short that in itself doesn’t work at all.
@@The_Gabe you're going to be ignored since you're not an easy target(bullies) they only go after the worst in your community as rage bait for views, don't engage more with this video to not give more traction to these people who don't want to have an honest conversation and act as if you do not care or understand these characters yet talk about them and think about them for days a lot more than these people who will watch forget and move on to the next show all in one day. have good day dude and goodbye.
@@The_Gabe I ain't talking about you then...? As long as you are doing something for a purpose --- even arguing --- that's art in my opinion. But people who work without purpose will only be power scalers.
@@lamegamertime , what do you mean with working without a purpose? A powerscaler is characterized by analyzing combat-related aspects of a fictional story. A analysis of this type by itself is already a proper piece of work. With these information you can do a whole lot of stuff, for example versus debating (where most of us are active in). Here we take this information and use them to figure out a hypothetical fight scenarios between two character because it can be an interesting topic to discuss and it allows us to exchange informations. These crossover fights can be animated, broken down, drawn into a full piece of art or be made into a music track. Contributing to powerscaling/versus debating with your own work has been a staple of this activity for a very long time. I’ve met so many different people who have done very stunning things like creating a sick animations or great analyses. That’s a way how we express our appreciation for these characters. We are part of the powerscaling and versus debating community.
Yeah look, theres tons of problems with the powerscaling community and I have many reasons why I moved away from it, but these were some really missguided and honestly downright bad arguments
@@someguy4405 like saying that "this character beats this character" when power scaling is stupid because it would be cooler to make a narrative around their fight (doomguy vs kratos example), which while sure, but there's nothing wrong with analyzing their powers and getting into arguments with people, and yes debating people for real can be fun if thats something you like, something this guy doesnt seem to realize. Oh and "powerscaling is dumb because these characters wouldnt even fight in the first place" is such a dumb argument because the reason literally doesnt matter, all it is, is if these 2 were trying to kill each other, who would win? And figuring that out is fun, so he's really just having a temper tantrum.
@@slendermf8588This dude really should stop talking about things he doesn't understand; sometimes someone can just be giving an opinion and he'll throw a flurry of insults for no reason simply because he disagrees, and his clown fan base will glaze him because they think being edgy for no reason is cool.
I think THE one reason for "powerscaling" is if you're a writer and you want to keep consistency in your stories. Especially when working with pre-established characters. For example, if I were a writer working for DC and I had to write a story in which Batman defeats Superman in a fight, I would have to make sure whatever I write doesn't introduce a giant inconsistency or a plot hole. So you determine there is no way in hell Batman is beating Superman in a fair fight so you look if there are any ways to level the playing field to make it believable.
I like powerscaling because it's very fun to be a manchild nerd about meathead shit I read or play or watch. And I can also like it without the powerscaling. Some of my favorite stuff ever made is quiet philosophical recitations on what the purpouse of life is or social commentary on the ways in which people are alienated from eachother. A lot without crazy fantastical powers. And stories with crazy fantastical powers are seen like this too. But I also like to sometimes sit around and think "Who would be faster flash or sonic" and doing a bunch of silly maths the creator never once thought of. Because why not, it's fun, you can find it weird but that's a you thing, why care. I do agree people that take this shit too seriously are annoying though, but there is annoying people in everything that do anything
Powerscaling is literally incredibly short and lazy fanfiction where you do nothing but compare numbers in ways that dont make sense If you want two charachters to fight you have to make so many caveats to their charachters and world that you might as well just make a new world In other words, stop trying to objectively powerscale characters and just MAKE your story where Arthur beats Thanos somehow
I love how there's a site called vs battle wiki filled with a complete power scale rating for a bunch of fictional characters from any media with complete list of power and abilities in the character page and whenever someone bring them to fight in the forums they have to always equalize their speed and sometimes make them bloodlust so the character's personality doesn't interfere with the outcome of the fight. Then go on and on in extremely long discussions pointing out what is written on say character's page, and it went wo bas they had to delete a bunch of their concluded fights because of how nonsensical some of the characters powers are. nowadays a lot of fights with very strong characters always end on inconclusive.
When they say powerscaling is fun they don’t mean the little joke banter why else would people do theory’s or the ace and attorney videos about if water is wet or how a cow would be filp with consent
I dont really think its abt who would win more abt who is more powerful bc its kind of annoying to see people downplay characters as a fan of that character bc you have read/watched them do stuff that contradicts what the person is saying however I do agree with everything in this video
That's because you do it out of genuine interest and not to stroke your ego. There is a world of difference and a lot of people have picked it up to stroke their ego online.
The main problem with power scaling that even a man child can understand is the simple trope of scissor paper rock. One fight might be easy and another fight might be hard purely because of the skills of the fighters. That doesn't make one stronger than the other, it was simply the advantage/disadvantage of their skills. It's one of the reasons powerscaling doesn't work alongside situation, injury, personality, etc.
0:12 Hey, mom, look it's me ! I'm in a youtube video ! Also i deleted my comment because i was angering people unnecessarily by calling their hobbies cringe, back then that didn't bother me but now it kinda does. If i were to do it again i would have removed the last sentence, it was just inflammatory and unnecessary to the point i was making
No it was 100% justified, a lot of the people in this crowd either legitimately have brain damage or are children that should be having better experiences elsewhere.
Tbf you could make an argument for Arthur Morgan winning over Thanos. When you consider his Dead Eye ability where he's able to slow down time almost to a standstill whilst also being able to shoot exceptionally fast (Faster than the reaction time of Thanos he could shoot the infinity stones out of his head or glove and then kill him.
I can't believe I'm doing this, but in the MCU Thanos molly-wops The same Hulk that brushed off high velocity rounds like they were raindrops in Age of Ultron, I don't think 19th century ordinance is hurting him.
was that ogsavage guy underneath my comment?💀 also i don't think there's a problem with enjoying power scaling as long as you're not an insufferable jack ass and don't dip too far into it beyond fun speculation and having conversations with people who also share that interest. but you're absolutely right. the internal logic, consistency, and context of a plot should be what dictates how a fight would go in the fictional setting in an actual story. not power scaling.
So what if "powerscaling is pointless"? Everything is pointless. We will all die. Thinking about hypotheticals is a fun thing to do, sometimes it helps you understand a show better. It really shows how invested you are in a story
Connor McGregor probably couldn't beat Goku, but the plot driven stat boost of the Margaret Thatcher memorial providing McGregor with the IRA kickback and the modified physicality of the human nature in the presence of Goku, which automatically increases the power level of a human enemy relative to his fighting spirit, I would say that Connor McGregor would be on equal footing with Goku, at least until Super Saiyan 3. If McGregor is able to stack critical hits before Goku reaches that transformation, there is a good chance he could take a non-lethal victory. With the way Goku's power scales with stakes, and the unpredictable nature of the UFC champion, Connor McGregor, especially with his various topographical buffs, it is a hard fight to determine.
8:34 maybe because power scaling doesn't care about the morals or ideas of the character. You could have a debate with the personality in mind. But it still doesn't chnage that the character has a lemit on what they can do.
@@idontknowwhatmynameis8525 Powerscaling is literally arguing over sht that doesn't matter whatsoever. It's like nerding over nothing. I do like it quite a bit but I'm just acknowledging how stupid it can be. The other stuff you mentioned is pure entertainment.
@@reenokop I understand what your saying but….doesn’t the same goes to games and sports?like people aguring over that type of stuff doesn’t really matter either(also we don’t arguing with people we debate with people but now and days I can understand why you would say arguing)
@@idontknowwhatmynameis8525 I guess debating is a better word. Call it whatever but it's basically the main point of powerscaling, as opposed to things like games and movies where it's not integral. That's where the difference lies. The reason I call it arguing is because people rarely change their minds, not just when comparing fictional characters but in general. Most are fundamentally biased and want confirmation for their existing beliefs, instead of learning the actual truth. Not saying there are right and wrong answers in these scenarios but people can be stubborn, especially if they really like or dislike a character. Usually that's when you'd have good knowledge of them as well (caring enough to do a lot of research about them), meaning a lot of debates just boil down to just simping and lowballing in a vicious cycle.
Cool vid man, the real question isn't if saitama can beat goku or if X character is universal dragon or whatever the real question is can it run crysis
I respect your opinion even tho i personally belive its fun to guess how strong fictional chracters really are with a scale. I also think its entertaning goos video still.
i feel that something that emphasizes your point is jojo's bizarre adventure. regardless of how you feel about the writing or quality of the series, it really does highlight how better stats in numbers or categories or tiers doesn't really determine the victor of a fictional fight or what's more meaningful story-wise. because unless if there's a random ass-pull; the fights in it are chaos themselves and it's really in-the-moment thinking, doing, and strategizing that really determines the winner.
no one with common sense power scales just using stats like you’re making out to seem. most everyone in jojo is relative, which is why you don’t really see people scaling characters over others, since matchup and strategy matter more in jojo. for most shonen that’s not how it works, characters get stronger and stronger
Megamind V Batman, Batman wins. Their technology and smarts are similar And they can both strategize, However, Megamind is about the SHOW. He's like the joker but he wouldn't actually KILL anyone. Because Megamind enjoys the show, and theatrics, even if there was a scenario where megamind is overwhelming Batman, he would stop to showboat / gloat, and batman would JUMP on that immediately and take him down. However I find it improbable that Megamind even has a 1-up scenario on batman, so Batman would take a lead and wait again for when Megamind decides to have a tad bit of tomfoolery, where he would win dominantly. By K.O. of course. Megamind wouldn't kill, and Batman wouldn't see enough of a threat or a reason to kill Megamind.
I wish the powerscaling community wasn't so shit cus topics within it could be fun, but the way people discuss them are so braindead half the time it just kills the fun for me
I make some of those category videos because I find editing fun. Funny part is though, how when looking at powerscalers, yeah, it could be fun to see how strong they are but not EVERYONE is "High complex outerversal+" 💀 If one character, such as the Flash, is able to perceive everything in slow motion but slams himself face first into an ice wall like a dumbass then he CLEARLY wouldn't just "blitz" someone just because he can. As Stan Lee says, it's the writer who decides for the story, and we're in it for the ride. Any inconsistency of a character could just be used against them so why use their greatest "feats" and ignore all the stupid things that happened to them? Superman could tank the punch from whatever multiverse destroyer God thing and the next panel get slapped by the the villain of the week and shows injury. In retrospect, nothing really matters. But I do like debating, and when I do get into some discussions, I find it more fun to think about how the scenario would go between the two characters and how they would fight and interact to see who finally wins if there is a winner at all. Rather than just the stats, its just talking about a cool story with a nice set up.
honestly powerscaling debates absolutely ruin any comments section of fighting animations. and honestly i do sorta blame dbz for it with their direct in universe power levels and constantly trying to top them for the shows entertainment value. like check out any fucking mario or sonic flash animation fight and it'll use those sound effects, early internet character fight culture was stupidly infactuated with dbz for some reason. main reason i put blame on those videogame ones is cause death battle is the core of the power scaling brainrot and that got its start explicitely from the flash animation of game sprites, they were like the main reason you'd watch those things. i don't mind the character analysis segments talking about character feats and their general characterisation and weaknesses, but then condensing it into gigatons of tnt, times the speed of light, gravities of pressure. it's just boring and the sources are always super exaggerated (honestly debunk videos are far more interesting but even then, they're SUPER sweaty) it's fun to watch super powered characters fight, mario and luigi verses sephiroth comes to mind but genuinly analysing if a final fantasy boss can kill jump man is assanine. just enjoy the scenario.
I do hope that people might start to think about these matchups from a story perspective. Why are the characters fighting? What banter is there, if any? For example, Magolor (Kirby) vs. Death (Puss in Boots) could have a story behind it. Death might fight the backstabbing space bean because said bean kind of cheated Death.
6:09 this may be very picky or technical but you cant perceive stuff to freeze time. To you stuff looks frozen and if there was a speedsters who was like 1000 times faster than that speedster they would look still as while its not "freezing time"
Hmm didnt see *my*comment in the "GOATS" section but that's okay.... I like how "there are 11D beings" do you get more powerful the higher your dimension is? For me, the fun of the 'death battles' was that they'd show stats BUT they'd also sprinkle in a bit of educational trivia ("He was able to catch a bullet, for him to do that, he'd have to move at MACH __ and the average person can only perceive time at __ ...) it wasnt making anyone smarter, but it was fun to hear.
With higher dimensions it depends on how the story works as higher dimensions are theoretical and we don't know 100% if it works like we think like 3d,2d and 1d.
@@pepperpeterpiperpickled9805 ap is just how much force you can put out with an attack. 11d ap and durability is better than 8d durability because you do affect 11d and survive 11d stuff and 8d can't. It's like actually why is 3d ap and durability better than 2d ap and durability. It's has another dimension of space which lower dimensionss can not affect.
I personally like power scalling, however, i like to compare characters that i feel like would make a good battle, i love imagining 2 characters fighting and one coming out on top but on an extremely close fight, but i hate the communnity of power scalling, mfs be putting 15 dimensional beings and spending 5 hours argumenting and being extremely mean to eachother, i once saw a guy saying that the titan clock man from skibidi multiverse ( a alternate universe of skibidi toilet ) wins against fucking comic godzilla, actually wild.
oh... before i watched this i was like "whats wrong with talking about who beats who in a fight, its fun little discussions!" and then i see how serious these people are talking about fucking super heros and anime villains and i'm like ???
Megamind vs batman would be a mental battle since both just wont kill each other and megamind mayne going to be scared by batman the thrown to the asylum no idea how will this work but yea in general powerscaling is dumb in a weird way
4:47 in most vs battles people imagine its im neurtal battle ground they can also pick a location and use what happend in the story to see what would logical happen they arent authors its mostly just logic.
0:12 a power scaler just determines how powerful they are i in something like strength. I seen people say jiern from dragonball was boring even though he beat goku before he unlocked mui. Powerscalers dont think a character is better in terms of writing they can be but not aways.
7:40 thats just very wrong. We would just ignore or say bloodlusted if its out of their character but you were tight about setting a scene as that can be important to a vs battle debate
"How does powerscaling account for story context". This is true for my favorite fight in Chainsaw Man Part 1, Makima has god level powers with powerful abilities, no diff the supposed final boss, and has control over other devils, still lost to Denji. Despite that, I still love the story.
5:19 you can have an objective answer if its obvious like spiderman will always beat a non powered huaman unless their is context in the fight if the character's are close in power than people will debate not everything needs to have an objective answer
8:55 genuine question, I'm not familiar with Doom lore, but if his armor is resistant to the sun or it might be indestructable, isn't that a problem with the logic of the story? I'm just asking for clarification on your point.
Doom 2016 had the better Doom Slayer. Very mysterious and really strong in lore, but they didn't make him multiversal or whatever just for the sake of it. And I am perfectly fine with classic Doomguy and Doom Slayer being separate characters. Also in Doom 2016 the demons would do a fucking *fatality* on you if you died to their melee, while in Eternal you just fall over which is so lame.
2:02 My friends and I like to talk about powerscale but on a casual setting, no numbers just arguments, but I just wanna say that this example, if not a joke, is a exemple on how some people treat powerscale, they pick their favorite character and say that no matter what, not even if they fight heaven and hell together, their favorite character would win. Also, even if I don't like the game, some rdr2 fans are some crazy mf when it comes to praising that game and hating on those who don't hate but don't like it either.
They do unless they aren't good power scalers we have a term called speed blitz it's when a character speed so fast compared to another character they wouldn't be able to react to the other character.
@@godversesans5152Genuine question, were did you guys get these terms for "multi universal plus" and shit like that. I hear that all the time in sigma anime edits but I never understood where you're even getting this from
@@kingcrowno8575 I haven't heard the term Multi-Universe+. But we get those names from teiring systems. Those systems are tools to determine how powerful they are or an ability is. I use character stats and profile wiki scaling. There are more different different systems I used to use vs battle scaling not any more
You have so much potential, your points you bring up with writing are very interesting and unique and if u let me edit a video for you I’d prolly cry 👍
Thanks for the offer brother. I'm not the best editor ever obviously but I think it does come across as more genuine when I'm in full control. Although if I ever do something with second channel, I'll let you know
@@rsg200 aw I wasn’t tryna diss ur editing just thought it’d be helpful cos you could focus on writing and leave the editing to someone else but no worries bro 🙏
@@awesomeadam2611 Yeah I know don't worry bro. I'm still in the process of forming this channel into something and I might need an editor like you. I've seen your stuff and yeah dude damn. Great editor and you watch my videos so you would understand what type of editing would be necessary for my videos. Like if I start doing quick reviews or movie reviews in general honestly. But yeah I'm still in the process of thinking things through. I'll go to you if need an editor. Thanks for the support brother
@@rsg200 no worries bro, if it helps the thing that drew me to your channel was the way you critique writing, you low key opened my eyes with how I perceive writing like when u showed how bad the dialogue was in spiderman compare to like red dead and last of us, it was a small thing but I’ve not really seen many RU-vidrs give their thoughts on writing and the way u blend humour is so fire that Spiderverse spot video was actually crazy. But that’s all the meat riding I got left in me 🤷♂️
I get it, but can he beat Goku though? (The most consistent Dragon Ball has been in modern times is it consistently finding a way to disappoint fans) P.S- Love your videos and keep up the good work, the RU-vid landscape needs individuals like you who are not afraid to voice their opinion regarding different pieces of media.
when you are comparing two characters in a fight, the stats dont just matter, literally everything about them matters if you want to compare them what im about to say beyond this point is completely used as an example lets say that arthur morgan once broke the game, and the developers say that the game is similar to that of a multiverse to arthur but he still has his regular canon feats and thanos, who quite literally broke apart a moon and threw pieces of it at iron still loses to him? according to scaling, yes. but if these two actually fought, thanos would literally crush his head like cell did to android 13 but sometimes thanos pities his opponents, so he might not kill him but he can still easily defea him
