not even joking. it has to be to induce rage. every single car reporter says how he hates it. why doesnt the industry care? and they dont install it on the upper dashboard or the door panels, no. they put that shit on the steering wheels and the climate units where you constantly have to touch it. someone really hates people who want clean looking cars.
@@Mr.Marbles 4 months with this new car and in the first week of driving I was already thinking how much of it and how hard it will be to replace. If at all possible.
Same here. Also, when I can sometimes I take cars from my parrents and enjoy a little different shifting expirience other than the one on my car. It's always fun.
The DCT is faster and getting that perfect shift 999 out of 1,000 times with both hands on the wheel gives me a big grin 999 times. Also, the fully automatic operation has taught me I tend to over rev the engine in everyday driving in manual mode.
@@machtschnell7452 so your driver skills are are top notch? Cause you don’t have to rev match or calculate your shifts and pedal dance? All I need is a gas, brake and pedals to be the ultimate driver like takumi??
no hate towards auto but i’m used to daily manual. yeah autos are great and fast but they’re boring. even my father despite how old he is still drives a manual. even despite traffic jams even my friends who can’t drive manual asked me to switch to auto but i refused. i literally enjoy driving manual it’s fun all the time! (maybe excluding traffic jam which isn’t that big of a deal for me anyways haha)
I would like to see more sequential manual transmissions on sport cars. It's fast and easy like automatic but you still feel connected like on the manual, and the quickshifter with ignition cut makes cool sound :D Also at least on motorcycles quickshifters are now days so well dialed in that they work really well up and down even on everyday riding when you are not really going fast.
Motorcycle quick shifters have come a long way. The only time I'm using the clutch on my ZX-6R is the occasional stop and go traffic. Other than that, Kawasaki's quick shifter and programming surrounding it make riding that much more effortless, plus being able to snap off shifts at dual clutch speed without touching a clutch is amazing.
i literally get bored and sleepy when driving a comfortable automatic. I get too distracted more too. Dont get me wrong, I love the ease and comfort of an automatic but man the fun and engagement you get in a standard transmission is unmatched.
don't even mention the subconscious desire to speed when driving an automatic as well. with a standard gearbox i literally have a feeling of how fast i'm going at all times based on the rpm & gear i'm in. with an auto it's just way too easy to want to press the gas a little farther and farther until you're 20 over
I used to think this as well, then I started working in LA area. California traffic will change your opinion very quickly when your having to shift gears 500 times on a normal commute home. An automatic isn’t so bad sometimes lol
@@artsafact_official I drove in commute traffic in the south bay for many years. When you know how to drive a clutch, it's something you don't even think about doing. I seldom needed to use the clutch or brake in constant stop and go, bumper to bumper traffic. I just idled in first gear at a steady crawl, rarely touching the accelerator.
I think I am part of a dying breed, I have owned a manual since I was 16 and even at 43, daily drive a manual and don’t plan on changing. Fortunately, I started with Miatas and graduated to 911s over the decades. Great commentary, glad to still be part of the small 7 percent.
Same here. A few years ago I bought an automatic car and for a brief moment enjoyed the point-and-shoot feel, but after 9 months I was over it and went back to a manual. It's not a performance thing, it's a driver involvement thing. I like to shift. I like to work the clutch. I like to get deeply familiar with the car so I can drive it really well, minimize roll-back on steep hill starts, shift smoothly, be in the right gear for each situation. Even though automatics have improved so much, and even if they are technically superior to manuals in performance and economy, they take away that day-to-day involvement in driving.
Here in Europe most people drive manual gearing, but sadly when it comes to used Porsches for sale 75% is automatic gearing and I plan to buy a used Porsche Cayman when I sell my stocks. (who on earth buys a sports car with automatic gearing, it makes no sense...)
I love your car reviews 100% but I would so appreciate you guys switching it up with content like this more often . It's still relevant to cars but almost a small history lesson
Seriously, that dealership experience video he did a while back still sticks with me. I even brought that story about his parents being locked up at the dealership to sign papers in a conversation I had recently.
As an older guy my daily will always be an automatic, my track day car will always be a manual. I'm on track to have fun and it may be old thinking but having that direct engagement is just so much fun and a part of the experience for me.
My thinking is the opposite. I like MT engagement for daily driving. If I was racing, i'd take the advantage of AT and less chance I screw up under pressure.
@@Tomoyo0827 yeah but my track car is also manual just because it's significantly more fun for me. Yes autos are faster but if my lap time is only a couple seconds off and I had more fun, that's still a win for me.
A big part of the reason people aren't buying manual transmissions is that companies who still offer them often only offer them on lower spec trims. This forces their customers to choose between a manual transmission and things like LED headlights, upgraded interiors, premium audio systems, and advanced driving and safety aids (I'm looking at you Subaru Crosstrek). When you have to give up so much, a lot of people choose to settle for the automatic, even if they would've preferred a manual.
@@Augie.. I agree about the CVT, but the manual isn't an option on most of their vehicles anymore. You pretty much have to choose the vehicle/trim with all of the options you want, then void your warranty by swapping in the manual transmission, which can also be quite expensive.
@@wildmikefilms I'm not sure if you are delusional, or maybe in a market outside the USA, but in most of the cars I have looked at getting, having a manual transmission means getting a lower trim model and giving up a bunch of features that simply aren't available with the manual transmission. This is true with the Ford Bronco, the Toyota Tacoma, and nearly every Subaru that is still offered with a manual transmission. When the Subaru Crosstrek still came with a manual transmission last year, it was only available on the bottom two trim levels (Base and Premium). If you wanted to add any of the options that were available on the Premium you could only get them in a package with the CVT. Even the Subaru WRX, which the company's own data shows has a 90% take rate for manual transmissions, now has a top level trim that is only available with their CVT automatic, which means if you want the new active suspension system that is only available on that trim level you have to give up having a manual transmission. So yeah, what I said was and is completely true.
@@Augie.. the bad thing is that they don't even offer it anymore.. at least not for crosstreks and up, i mean forester, outbacks, ascents... if you buy the WRX or BRZ, then you are safe, and even so, I think it was just recent that the WRX was given the TS version which is comparable to the highest CVT trim... I forgot the specifics but the manual version didn't have recaro seats on the highest trim, but the CVT did... Impreza also has manual trans still I think....
my first car was the ford focus with the recalled transmission and it sounded like it had rocks in the gears from day one. now i have a manual abarth and every ride is fun, even just a trip to the grocery store puts a smile on my face
This. Even a manual shit box is engaging and fun. What we're talking about really is two different types of people. Unfortunately lazy fucks, the same ones who embraced digital distribution because they can't get up to change a disk have fucked over everything.
lol i was in the same situation, you start from a stop in a way the car didnt like and it'd shutter like hell. now onto a honda civic si and learning manual on it and having so much fun
SG in the LC500: Stern, informative, reserved. SG in the S2000: joyous, happy, relaxed. Just seeing the 2 different SG's is all that is needed to put the Manual vs Automatic debate to rest.
Astute observation! To me, the biggest difference between driving an MT vs AT car is that in the MT car, the body is being symmetrically used, with both left- and right-sides handling delicate tasks requiring sensitivity. Moving from an MT to an AT is like listening to a song with just one earphone instead of two - one misses the symmetry even if the recording is monaural.
@@blackice7408 I have a dry DCT, I'd take that over cheaper autos but more expensive autos like the ZF-8 are probably just as fast and much smoother. a wet DCT I'd take over any other transmission of any kind. but I didn't grow up driving manuals.
@@blackice7408 Wet DCT's are pretty insane, just went to compare my Manual Veloster N with the DCT N and it's crazy just how good that transmission is.
@@anengineerandacat yeah I was curious to see someone's thoughts on a direct comparison with the DCT N. sounds like you enjoyed the test drive. I wanted to test drive one as well. currently I'm on a Mazda craze (and rightly so just really surprised at their superb handling) having another manual 3 this time the Speed3 already enjoying. but I have yet to try a DCT.
Living in the countryside, where it's just long roads and a lot of exiting back roads, manual transmission is a no-brainer for me. My daily and my summer car are both manuals with really short gearing that I love. I'm actually saving money to buy the next Nissan Z, just because it's manual.
Buy what you want, it's your car. That new Z looks sweet. I live in a city with atrocious traffic so I have two options, buy an automatic or be annoyed all the time. Everyone has different circumstances.
The Z has a great manual once it is upgraded with a kit such as the ZSpeed Performance upgraded clutch, and clutch slave cylinder bypass. It can handle high power, and the sticky first to second gear shift is much better. It can handle gobs of power as well. I understand the manual for the new Z will be basically the same as the existing.
Your rounded willingness to look into all angles is really refreshing compared to a lot of people who dont dig down from the surface. I notice it in most things you say!
I drive a 2019 WRX 6MT. I don't even care if the manual doesn't feel as good as other cars used to. The fact that I can downshift from 4th to 2nd, mash the accelerator, and slam shift to 80 mph brings me all the joy in the world.
As you get walked on by an auto lol. I’m a manual dude too but even I have gone to the dark side. It’s way better now. Lexus RCF has an incredible auto. It’s faster in every aspect and I can control the gear I am in.
I love my 86 manual for the reasons mentioned. All the inputs make you feel connected to the car. Manual trans is pretty damn good, especially for "modern" cars.
I went from an FR-S with a standard to a Mazda 3 with an auto, and at first I was sticking to the 'uggggh it's gotta be an auto' but after driving it and living with it, I really don't feel like I'm missing out.
Last year (newer automatic technology), I test drove the automatic version of the hakone 86, and the manual version of the brz. And the manual brz was much more fun and actually seemed faster. One from Toyota and one from Subaru, but they are basically the same car.
I drive a 2016 Camaro SS with a manual as my daily and I love it. I drove a ZL1 with the 10 speed automatic and was genuinely shocked with how fast and smooth it shifted. I know eventually the manual is going to be a thing of the past but I'm going my manual until the wheels fall off.
The modern day automatic transmissions are smooth and quick. However, I'd still prefer manuals because it provides a more engaging drive. The way I see it autos are people who can't drive manuals or for the speed queens who cares only about time slips. Manuals are for drivers who likes control.
Great video thanks. I would also add, in my opinion, that generally the manufacturers are going auto so they can control the power delivery and therefore not have to spend money on stronger driveshafts and differentials. An example of this is the current line of Mustang GT's.. the Manual has a cast steel diff casing, the auto has Aluminum. The Manual NEEDS to be stronger because the manufacturer cannot stop you revving to the red line and side stepping the clutch, whereas in the auto the electronics can simultaneously control the torque delivery and gear changes to "protect" the drivetrain.
So I've been noodling on this a lot recently, because I actually wanted to manual swap my A90 Supra as a channel project. I actually figured out every part I needed, did all the research necessary to figure out what modifications needed to be made, and even found a source for every single part. But before I pulled the trigger on a fairly costly niche project, I wanted to get an estimation of what the car would drive like. So I calculated out the gear ratios based off of the two transmission options I had, and then decided to drive the two cars that it would be closest to, which were the M240i and M340i. I must have forgotten what BMW manuals felt like though, because once I drove it I realized that it was far from what I was expecting. The shifter legitimately feels like a plastic toy, like I'm racing on a Logitech G27 in Gran Turismo. That potentially could be fixed with bushings and a shifter kit, but then the biggest trouble was the gear ratios. With the combination of the swapped manual and the A90 Supra's final drive, the gearing would have been so horribly long, that I would have barely had the opportunity to shift the damn thing. That's when I realized that the ZF8's short and snappy gearing might actually amount to a more fun overall experience than a manual would have, allowing the engine to go through the rev range more rapidly and create a more exciting and involving experience, as opposed to shifting into second and leaving it there on the manual. If Toyota spent the money to develop a gearset/final drive that worked well on the street/highway and on track, then perhaps a manual A90 Supra would be a viable option. But as Mark said, spending potentially millions of dollars to sell a handful of cars just doesn't fly with running a profitable business, no matter how much we like to moan and complain about manufacturers not making enthusiast products. And me spending 8-10k to make my car worse to drive certainly doesn't fly with me being able to pay my bills at the end of the month, no matter how much the RU-vid comments yells at me to swap the car. So my Supra, along with everyone else's Supra, stays automatic for now. And I have a feeling it'll stay that way forever....
There's a company in Texas that is doing manual swaps on the new Supra, with a warranty. But they charge $30k (not counting the cost of the car). Forget their name
Another great video Mark! This new generation doesn't know the thrill of driving a vehicle that is completely at the control of your hands and feet. It takes skill, coordination, hearing, anticipation, timing and patience to drive these types of vehicles. You get a better understanding of how cars work in general and appreciate them more. What I think has discouraged many drivers to forego owning such a beautiful machine is the inconveniences of driving one as a commuter and being stuck in traffic- the shifting, clutching, rinse and repeat but ever since the pandemic, guess what? For the past year since shelter in place and folks remotely working from home, the traffic is virtually dead here in the Bay Area. It's great to drive manual without having to worry about being stuck in traffic- it's like driving Saturdays everyday of the week. After watching your awesome review I pulled the trigger despite some pushback from the wife and bought myself a 2020 Type R last Sept. This could be one of the last times I could finally own a manual transmission and I haven't looked back with my decision. My humble beginnings driving manual cars in Grand Turismo on my original PlayStation finally came to fruition some 25 years later. I plan to own this car forever and I hope you do the same with that beautiful S2000 of yours as well. 😁
I’m an old buzzard and have been driving manuals all my life. Driving a stick becomes so engrained that even in traffic, it’s no hassle. As far as skill and coordination, walking takes more, and it took longer to learn than does learning a manual transmission. It’s just that today’s Americans are too lazy and lack the motivation to learn. Ironically, the domination of automatic transmission is going to be short lived, because EV’s are going to make the overly-complicated gear-changers obsolete.
As much as “enthusiasts” rant and rave about how manuals are dying, many don’t go out and buy a manual car; whether it’s due to a lack of availability or just actual preference behind the lip service. Automatics have come a long way, but manual will always hold a special place for me.
Counterpoint: as an enthusiast, I am very particular about what I want in a car and can't just put it all on a transmission. Most of the manual-quipped cars fail most of the criteria. For me, I want AWD, stick, luxury features, a strong powerplant, and it has to be visually attractive. The last car to ever meet that criteria was the previous generation BMW 440i xDrive, and I couldn't afford a new one at the time I was last in the market. I have a preference for Audi over BMW or MB, so if they decided to offer an S5 with a manual, I would be at the dealership making my deposit yesterday. But no. All the manuals are economy penalty boxes, American pony cars, hot hatches, or the slow Miata/BR-Z. I don't want any of these. How can I support the manual when they aren't on the cars I want? Even if I did buy one of these, I'm sending the message that these are what manual buyers want, and I don't want to do that, either.
To be fair i think a lot of the enthusiast people who watch these vids are jerking each other off and buying each others used manual cars, which doesn’t help the market for making new ones at all
That's the beginning and end of the debate, really. Doesn't matter if the auto is faster, cheaper, more efficient, or even more reliable. Women, the elderly, and young people without good parents to teach them financial sense may be the one leasing all the new vehicles in automatic, but anyone who learned stick at a young age never goes back, not unless they subject themselves to a bumper to bumper to commute day in and day out, or they get too old.
Let's hear you you again after a 1.5h commute through a crowded metropolitan area with stop-and-go traffic at every other traffic light and cramps in your left leg.
@@stefanguels I don't see how that relates to reliability, and you clearly have never driven stick because your left leg doesn't cramp anymore than you're right leg for being on the brake for 1.5 hours.
I tend to keep my cars longer now versus when I was younger. Still, at 71 I've (only) owned 12 cars. 3 were automatics, and the last of those I owned in the mid-70s. I find it difficult to get enthused about an automatic, though I know they are more highly capable than I. So comparatively speaking I have come to terms with "driving a slow car fast". I just love the feeling of mechanically bonding with a car. Even in stop and go, I don't mind. It's just another opportunity to practice the Holy grail of shifting gears; smoothness.
I remember getting in my friends M3 a couple years ago after having not driven a manual for over 10 years. It was like riding a bike! OMG, so fun, the adrenaline, everything. Made me opine for my old Legacy GT Turbo with it's 6 speed.
I really liked this video! Simple, straight to the point, and above all HONEST. Sometimes to have a discussion on a topic like this, you have to admit bias. Hard for many people to do, but you're spot on 👍🏻
A brave and exceedingly well put commentary, Mark. Over many, many years of driving I always had at least one MT in my garage. In 2012 I replaced my Mazda RX8 (a manual, of course) with a GTI. My wife who occasionally drove "my" car to commute in the nightmare of Seattle traffic asked how I'd feel about choosing an automatic. It was a timid questions but I could tell it meant a lot to her. OK. I'd heard good things about the GTI's DSG (dual clutch) and I agreed to give it a chance. If it didn't work out, I thought, I could always give her the GTI and go back to an MT. When I bought a new GTI in 2018 (in large part so my teenage daughter could benefit from additional safety and driver assistance features when she drove it) I didn't even consider a choosing an MT version as good as VW's manual is. The DSG provided quicker shifting and better performance. The option of treating the dual clutch transmission in manual mode that held a selected gear all the way to redline made the DSG a no brainer. Nearly as "engaging" as an MT with the added benefit that I could leave it in auto mode when I creeped along at five to twenty-five mph stuck in near gridlock freeway traffic and "engagement" wasn't an especially pleasant experience. There are a few vehicles that I'd still choose with a manual transmission, the most obvious of which is a Miata. But that's because as the last true British sports car (built in Japan, of course with an electrical system that works) its heritage demands it. Otherwise, however, the obsession with manual transmissions among a tiny group of self-styled "enthusiasts" strikes me more as an affirmation of gender identity than a rational choice. I'm old enough to remember when "real" men sneered at power steering and brakes as suitable only for wimps and women. Somehow masculinity survived technological advances.
@@ianholmquist8492 I drive a 19 BRZ, haha. The 1 to 2nd is also the hardest. But when it's done right, you hear the fat lady sing alright! Sing to 8k rpm babyyy
My car has a slightly worn 2 to 3 synchro so the only way to get a silky smooth third to second downshift is by double declutching. If I'm not driving hard and want to change gear slower I'll add a second throttle blip at the end. Same process for 2nd to 1st except double declutching is mandatory (avoid wrecking synchros big time). And yes, 1st to 2nd gearshifts are always annoying
My first three cars were manual from 1993 to 2014. I’ve been in Grand Cherokee SRT and then a Trackhawk since 2014, and the ZF auto really erased all the bad memories of old automatics. It’s still fun to get to row the box and heel/toe when I get a chance to drive a manual, but in daily driving the ZF is a nice balance.
That's kind of part of the issue, though. Sure there are plenty of good automatics, but generally you gotta pony up a good amount of cash to get them. Otherwise it's sluggish penalty boxes with god-forbid CVTs. To each their own of course. I actively seek out only manuals, I know I'm missing out on cars, but oh well
Funny, it's the exact opposite here in the Netherlands; most people buy manuals. Autos are few and far between and always considerably more expensive. I'd never exchange the feeling you get with a manual - especially in a rear wheel drive car - with any auto, regardless of how smooth, hi tech etc. it is. When I'm driving a car, well. I wanna feel like I'm driving a car! Thanks for another great video. You Patagonia Boys are golden.
Aren't manuals much more of a thing in Europe in general? I'm from Canada and I don't think manuals are very popular here either, at least for normal vehicles.
@@jareknowak8712 Sale of new gas cars will be banned, but I don't expect gas itself to be banned anytime soon in the U.S. By the time it does, I expect the car to be falling apart from all the track days and spirited driving it goes through.
I got my first manual car a couple years ago. a Civic Type R. I love it. I wouldn't have it any other way. Its such an engaging and exciting experience. But I'm under no illusion that a modern automatic or dual-clutch is going to be faster every time.
@@matts6551 sort of can. If you really want to push urself to the max you will need an auto. Keeping both hands on the wheel will let you push harder. But yeah, in cars under 270ish hp you'll be better off in manual. Just comes down to personal preferance and what you find more fun. A bit like grip vs drift when it comes to driving fun.
Did you mean that a modern auto or dual-clutch wouldn't be faster than a manual or would? There really is no denying the automatics are faster, in the past it was the other way around due to how they responded. I had a 2013 Mustang GT with the auto and I hated it. That 6 speed auto just annoyed me to no end as it never did what I wanted it to. I had a Golf R later with the DSG, I loved that car. Shifts did exactly as I wanted 90% of the time, keyly when I really needed it to. Manuals are still fun, but as someone into German cars I don't know of many besides Porsche that offer them. I love the sound of a fast shifting auto when it makes a little crack between gear changes. It hurts to hear a manual where it's so much slower between gear changes, to the point that I can't even watch videos of like a Golf R with a manual. In cases like that, you clearly can tell they put a manual in to appease those who whined because the 2015 only had the DSG.
It doesn't matter if an automatic is better. Manuals are amazing to me because they add a level of challenge and complexity to your drive. Giving you a sense of satisfaction when you shift perfectly and smoothly.
Well the big problem with automatics is if you actually run the living snot out of your vehicle. Then it comes down to the design. Most of them don't have transmission coolers and simply cannot take the abuse. Then you have the dealerships that don't know how to do a basic fluid change without costing $6800 and 6 weeks of your time (I didn't have to pay but had it failed 9 days later, then it would have been out of warranty). So my thing is that I don't "hate" automatics, I just think if the manufacture is going to offer one, then they need to execute properly when it comes to cooling, reliability, service, and education of the low IQ individuals the dealerships seem to hire. Telling customers "oh it's a SEALED transmission" and other various forms of avoidance techniques to get out of changing the fluid hoping that customers will just trade in the vehicle before the 60k/5year mark is a stupid business model that only works in a good economy, high resale value, and obviously making much better replacements.
And see i just cant fathom why anyone wants added complexity to operating heavy machinery in an environment full of distracted stupid apes also driving heavy machinery. And yes I drive a manual but I hate it.
@@HARaZAC Yea I want to, only 3500 left to pay off, Id sell it now but Dodge Darts arent worth shit so then Id have to come up with another down payment and all tbat and for what? For anotber shitty car cause I cant afford too much if I still want to build wealth or save for a house. I just want teleporters lol. The used car market is dumb. Im not paying 7500 for a fucking 12 year old Corolla with 175k miles on it just cause people keep parroting how reliable they are and driving the damn price up. Fuck cars lol.
Reliability Issues - Here's the heart of the problem - Call any dealership and ask them: 1) What is the warranty on the automatic? 2) What are the service intervals? 3) Do they even know how to change the fluid properly? 4) Are they going to give you the whole "...it's a sealed transmission..." (Nissans well rehearsed) speech in order to try to avoid changing the fluid? 5) Is the automatic designed well enough that it has adequate cooling from the factory in that you can run the piss out of it? 6) Can any transmission shop change the fluid or does it HAVE to go to the dealership where you inevitably get the newby, or the kid thats hungover, or the guy that hates his job? I think you really have to get on forums for individual makes/models and see if five years later those automatics that have had the piss ran out of them are still surviving under severe duty cycles. So there's a big risk factor if you like driving "spiritedly" lol and go for the automatic as any fix is rarely cheap, and some being so sophisticated, even the low IQ individuals that somehow gravitate towards employment at dealerships absolutely have no idea, and even some manufacturers don't even provide clear advice on fluid change intervals. I was 9 days from being out of warranty otherwise I would have been out $6800, because, I didn't realize even a "modern day" automatic would only last about 54,000 miles. So it was a lesson to me to now make sure to either buy the manual, or make sure that the automatic option has been time/reliability tested. Also some have known failure points: www.fastintentions.com/product_info.php/products_id/211
Mark this is the best discussion on this subject I have ever heard. I’m an older guy and have a love for loud, naturally aspirated, manual cars. I’ve been blessed to have owned a lot of them over the years. I currently own five modern Porsches including GT3 and a 718 Spyder. However, sometimes my left knee is happy I’m in my Targa with a PDK. It will be a sad day when my body won’t let me work a manual box anymore, but I know it’s coming. Love your channel.
Ehm, it seems as though automatic transmissions are cheaper to maintain, and last much longer now. The new automatic transmissions (in bigger more expensive cars) are almost perfected in terms of maintanance and life expectancy. They are cheaper in maintance because they don't brake down like automatic transmissions do.
every 100k typically you need a clutch/flywheel depending on how you drive...auto's can go 200k plus without needing anything but then yeah they die their more expensive then just a clutch/flywheel
@@tone3560 The exact opposite of my experience. I sold a Civic Si with original clutch with 200k+ miles. My Z3 Coupe just passed 190k. And so on. 90k on a Mazda auto, less than that on others. I won't be buying another auto anytime soon.
@@tone3560 That's the biggest batch of bs I've ever heard in my life... who needs to replace their clutch and flywheel every 100k miles, stop riding the clutch dude.
My first "nice" car had a CVT and I thought after a little while of owning it "Aww... its just better" and knew I wouldn't have too many more manuals. Good news: bikes will be (sequential) manual until they're electric, and they're much more fun to shift
I like old school! But I am over 60 so there's that. I don't race anyone now days so I don't need the fastest shifting transmission. I just enjoy the engagement of shifting my own gears, even in my 2006 Mazda3 5 speed sedan. I am shopping for a new car and whatever car I buy, will be with a manual transmission!!
Same story with me too. I still do little stop light races. I keep my skills honed, and I still tear up the roads when it's safe. I refuse to turn into one of those old people that drives all pokey. And I did myself a great service by intentionally buying a MINI Cooper S-series w/6 speed manual. I can confirm that you'll really "enjoy the engagement of shifting my own gears" as you stated. Consider buying one of these next time, and don't pay any mind to getting in and out of it. It's tight, but once seated the feeling isn't like much else (that's affordable) and the shifter feels the same as BMW's--I'm told.
4 out of my 5 cars are manual. My only automatic is in a Jeep Wrangler. I taught my wife how to drive manual so she would know how to get me to the hospital before we had the Jeep. I know automatic transmissions and electric cars will win the future but I'm not looking forward to it. I'm going to hold on to my manual vehicles as long as I can. Great video Mark.
I couldn't find a car I wanted with a manual and settled on the auto. After years of growing up with terrible automatics, I was really surprised by how good they can be. It's still maybe 3/10 as fun as a manual but it's better at shifting than I am, and top gear is much taller vs. the manual making it a dream on the freeway. But I still sourced my next car with a manual. There's just something about them.
Well thought out and I've felt this way for a while. I own the Miata and love that "feel" but when driving my BMW it can be just as much fun and the options and modes available on the BMW are smooth and fit most driving desires. I use the manual mode on that car from time to time and have learned to love it, while not the connected feeling of the Miata gearbox, still fun. Nice video!
I love the manual in my car - its one of the good ones you mentioned. My previous daily driver was an automatic and I just didn't like it. I hated the way the paddles worked with the transmission and I just didn't feel engaged with the driving experience. I guess I really like driving and want to feel like I'm doing more than holding the steering wheel. Even on my daily driving running errands and stuff I have a great time shifting gears.
"I guess I really like driving and want to feel like I'm doing more than holding the steering wheel. Even on my daily driving running errands and stuff I have a great time shifting gears." This comment exactly!
@@crosstolerance I test-drove a Subaru Crosstrek with CVT (no manual available for test-drive). The CVT felt like rubber bands, even worse than the six-speed torque converter trans in my company vehicle. I ordered a manual six-speed Crosstrek. It was a three-month wait between order and delivery, but it was worth it. It shifts a bit clunky compared with my 2013 Frontier, but it feels connected instead of like a bowl of oatmeal. My highway mileage after 1500 miles is 35 mpg (US) and around 28 city.
so true- I love it when passengers think my car is busted- they never ask me for a ride again. Try running your car to redline with passengers with you...oh, its priceless!
you mention how manufactures program the engines computer to work with the automatic transmission for Fuel Economy (and emissions)... I hadn't thought of this. About 1 year ago I converted my 2014 Ford Focus SE from Automatic to Manual. With the Automatic transmission I was getting 48-49mpg (when measured at the pump), and with the manual transmission I get 34.4mpg (also measured at the pump). What you said, explains why my fuel economy is drastically different with a Manual transmission VS Automatic. I miss my 48mpg...
I dont even have to watch a second to say the answer is simple. Use whichever one suits your needs better. If you like the convenience and performance of automatic use that. If you think manual is more fun and you like the extra control then use that.
There's a lot to say about the choices of others around you affecting both the availability of quality of your preferred transmission. In Europe, the manual transmission is so widely adopted that drivers benefit from having them available on almost every vehicle. In the US, many vehicles just aren't available with a manual gearbox and where they are, they may not be a good a European variants.
One thing Savage didn't bring up is that historically manual transmissions were considered a the budget friendly option as they were usually cheaper than early gen automatics. This was a double whammy for driving enthusiasts who got both superior driving dynamics and better prices (with a healthy dash of smugness vs. 'lazy' auto drivers 'wasting' their money). This makes it even harder to invest in modern manuals because there is an expectation still that manuals demand a lower price inherently.
I have the zf6 combined with a v8 and it's still pretty decent. I don't race it or anything but rather using it to control shift pointss. No where near as fun as a third pedal
I can. I have one in my BMW F30 3 series, and it shifts like a dog until it warms up. I have to build in a half second for the clutches to grab when turning from my residential street to a higher speed arterial. The delay routinely causes me to scream at the transmission, when a clutch disc would have been glued to the flywheel almost instantly when I released the left pedal. It also has a nasty tendency to lie about which gear it's in when in manual mode. Example: I perform a California stop at an intersection in my neighborhood with high visibility. I shift the transmission down to M2 and intend to take off in that gear with diesel torque. But despite showing M2, the gears are back in 1 and the transmission does an off the books shift from 1 to 2 before I start accelerating again. Little lying sack of shit. Had this car been offered with a stick in the US the way it was in Germany, I would have gotten it from the start. Since it wasn't, I'm stuck with the unappealing prospect of performing the sex change myself with an imported English transmission.
Around that same time, turn-of-the-century, I was telling people “I’ll never own a manual transmission again”. Too painful for city driving. So far I’ve completely lived up to that. If there’s a car I would have considered, like the civic si, that it is only available with a manual, it’s off my list.
I've been driving for more years than I care to admit, and have never bought an automatic (though I owned a couple through inheritance, didn't drive them much before selling them, and I'm saddled with an automatic company-issue vehicle). I have even driven manuals daily while recovering from leg fractures (hip in 2001, knee in 2005, ankle in 2008-2009) I found myself in gridlock traffic three times in the past week two to three hours at a time, driving a six-speed Subaru Crosstrek. I've found that what makes city driving painful is not the manual, it's the traffic. Yeah, the clutch in my '74 Coronet felt like a leg-press machine and the shifter hung up going from first to second, ditto the '70 Buick Estate Wagon, but shifting has always been part of driving, and the imitation-manual automatics I have driven are worst-of-both-worlds.
When i subscribed to savagegeese, Jessica finally let me keep all my child support money. I now have the permission to see my kids again too! Much love.
You’ve got a point. I kept reading about the new Corolla because most reviews seemed positive. I drove it, and I was disappointed. Clutch was so light and numb, and the gears were super tall. Then drove the new Mazda 3 with a manual, and it was a night and day difference. I think I’d still take a bad manual over an average automatic, though. In the Corolla’s case, definitely the manual over the CVT. But there are much better manuals in that class.
@@pascutia yeah I drove one myself at a Toyotafest meet when they first came out the clutch has absolutely zero engagement feedback, throws felt long. Honda/Mazda are the ones that really know how to make MT.
@@pascutia Wow, it's strange for me to read that! I bought a new 6-speed 2020 Corolla hatchback SE last year, as my first manual car. I wasn't able to drive it, but I read in reviews that the car is the easiest to drive for new learners, so I took a chance. Dealership drove it to my home after I wrote the check, in case you were wondering. Anyway, I can say all the reviews were right. It was super easy to learn to drive it. Finding the bite point wasn't too hard, once I finally learned where it was. I much appreciate the auto rev match and brake hold as well. You wrote that the clutch was numb and the gears were tall, and I have no clue what you mean. This the only manual car I've ever driven, I have nothing to compare against it, and I know no different. But speaking from the perspective of someone who wanted to learn to drive stick, I would highly recommend the new Corolla to anyone else who wants to learn to drive a manual, no matter who they are or their age. I'm 36 years old, by the way.
@@hamsterama Props to you for buying a manual without knowing how to drive stick!! Yeah, I agree. It’s a great car to learn on because of all the features it has added to make shifting smoother. Basically, I was referring to it being somewhat difficult to gauge the bite point easily. Other manuals you can pretty easily feel in the clutch pedal when it picks up. It was hard to be smooth with it because I found the pedal to be super light compared to other manuals. Too heavy of a clutch isn’t good, but the two cars that I regularly get to drive that are manuals have a much more obvious bite point. With regards to gearing, the engine in the Corolla makes most of its power up top (which is cool), but the long gearing makes it feel slower than it should be. The Mazda 3 I brought up has shorter gearing, and the engine starts to make peak torque earlier in the rev-range. This leads to getting in the power band quicker therefore acceleration feels more effortless. Either way, the Corolla with a stick is way more fun than the CVT.
@@pascutia Thanks for your reply! I should probably mention that I wear shoes with thin soles whenever I drive the Corolla. If I wear "regular" shoes, like sneakers, I tend to stall because I can't feel where the clutch bites. So, come to think of it, you're right about the bite point not being obvious. But wearing shoes with thin soles is an easy workaround. And you're definitely correct about the long gearing. For example, shifting to third gear is a slow process. Mostly because second gear is really slow and makes a lot of noise, but not a lot of speed. It feels like there's a huge difference between second and third gear. Definitely my automatic 2009 Yaris accelerates faster from a stop than I can with my Corolla. But the Corolla is a very pleasant highway cruiser. I mostly drive it on the highway, so having the power up top is better suited for my driving anyway. In any case, I'm happy to join the exclusive stick shift club! In the days after I bought the Corolla, I wondered if I made a mistake, buying a brand new car I didn't know how to drive. But I'm glad I took the risk, because it's just so much fun!
@@JoJoJoker No, but emissions standards will soon force everything to be at least hybrid. I’m not going to pay collector prices for a beat up 2020 6 speed Corolla in 15 years.
I think the biggest misunderstanding in both the car culture community and in car companies, in general, in relation to cars, is the idea of constantly wanting faster and faster with higher and higher top speeds. That's what ruined the Manual with the Long gears. When you don't bother with bull shit of "I need and want a 200mph car", never bothering to think about WHERE you'd ever reach that speed and even if you did for how long would you be there. It's why the S2K, Miata, BRZ/GT(not really an)86 are actually better cars than people tend to think.
In the future, SavageGosling will present "Auto-Pilot vs Human Driver - Fine Print" . And the same points will be advocated: "But Daddy Goose, my auto-pilot lap-times were much faster and Auto-pilots are so much safer, my insurance is cheaper". I call bullshit on all the automation. And that goes for you too, infotainment!
Laziness. It's an instant gratification society where you get pissed if your drive thru experience took more than 5 minutes. Everyone seems to blame poor work ethic on the millennials, but in reality we are the ones that created phone it in ambitions for them. I will take solace in knowing that my manual transmission is an excellent theft deterrent though.
Had a DSG MK5 GTI, and got a six-speed 2007 model to replace it. Older manuals were just more analog- and while the stick isn't the greatest it's an engaging and fun car to drive. The rev-hang of modern ECUs makes driving a new manual weird for me.
Yeah, I hate that electronic nannying. In my 2000 Corolla 1.6 I even had some weird stuff never heard of before that the dealership couldn't make sense of either. When driving high-speed and high-rev on the autobahn and then pressing the clutch, the engine would sometimes, and too rarely to reproduce, keep the revs at that high level, for seconds, and then veeeery slowly start decreasing it and eventually, after maybe 20 seconds, drop to idle. - I assumed it's some modern VVT-i engine shit about combustion chamber temperature or such.
Driving a manual can be a ‘flow state’ experience. I don’t care if it’s worse in every way. It’s still more engaging to me than the only two inputs being one foot and steering. This channel reminds me that more tech and more ‘comfort’ isn’t always what makes us happier. Just my $0.02.
I drive a 2000 Jeep Wrangler TJ, 4.0 straight 6 with the 5 speed manual. I LOVE it, and I’m only 22. My previous experience with dirt bikes and motorcycles in combo with a car enthusiast family put me into manual cars and trucks, I’ve been driving that Jeep for 4 years and I ADORE the feeling of having full control over the trans compared to the car doing everything for me. It’s also a talking point and I’ve definitely spread the manual trans to more people my age who never knew about them!
Yeah, it's the low-cost reason for manual, because it takes away what makes manual interesting. And these days Hyundai has some shitty granny-assisted manual they of course call 'intelligent' which operates the clutch for you.
Fully agree. I have a 2010 Matrix XRS that I drive as a daily and it makes me miss my 1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT that I have sitting in a garage, mainly because of the annoying rev hang. I felt much more connected to the throttle with my 3000GT. The 2006 Mazdaspeed 6 that I use to have also felt pretty good for a modern car though, surprisingly.
Instead of "Save the Manual" it should've been "Buy New Manuals" as the calling. Most "enthusiasts" don't want to be the "chump" to take the big initial depreciation and so here we are. When autos got better on paper than manuals (0-60, MPG, shift speed), there wasn't a reason for manuals unless manufacturers sold a lot of a particular model with manuals new or brand image (e.g. 911).
This. So much this. If manual purists care so much about saving the manuals, they should buy new. That will send a message to car manufacturers saying there's a market for manual enthusiast cars. Hoping to buy 2nd hand will not help save the manuals.
@@izzdin6228 I'm one of the chumps that buys new. Three cars owned. Two bought new. All have been manual. Its likely my next new car will be manual too.
@@izzdin6228 Missing one point, it has to be GOOD manual, not just a manual. I have no issues with auto, it's just for fun cars, i would prefer a manual.
For me, a small car with a tiny engine just feels better as a manual like my Suzuki Jimny (Samurai) where the revvy little engine just likes to sing alongside the very precise manual gearbox. Anything medium to large though and give me the automatic any day. You're so right where a lot of the 8-10 speed auto boxes are just so good now and even the consumer DSGs in GTI's are just something I never thought I'd see at that price point since they perform so well. What can go die in a fire though are CVTs.
For me it’s simple: If you can afford a “weekend toy” just to use occasionally get a manual, for all other duties automatic; especially if you live in a metro area with heavy traffic and use the car for errands in some form.
Yep. And people saying that manual are theft deterrents, they are not. If you car jacket can get in your car, they most likely know how to drive it to steal it. The only reason they won’t is that they can’t sell a manual as easy as an automatic.
I can swap a new clutch at 100,000 miles a lot cheaper than it would be to put a new automatic transmission in. The new transmissions are going to be incredibly expensive when it comes time to repair them. It doesn't matter how good or engaging they are if you can't afford to fix the car.
Depends on the trans. I had to do 2 clutch jobs in a 2001 S10 I owned, and the crappy NV1500 5 Speed has an integrated bellhousing, so you had to drop the whole transmission to do a clutch job on it, doubled the cost due to labor hours
I think videos like this are nice, especially for people not so immersed in the community. A lot of things are changing about cars. Not all of it is bad, and it's good to be realistic about that. It's the end of an era but the start of a new one.
I had a manual Audi S4 (supercharged V6) and ended up replacing it with an S5 Sportback with automatic, there simply were no manual options from Audi. This is the first automatic I ever owned. It's nice with decent shifting in manual mode, but I feel like I am playing a video game versus really driving -l regret not keeping the S4, it was much more fun to drive. Thanks for the great explanation, it makes me fell a little better. I might go to electric next - video game all the way.
The current generation S5/RS5 is way too soft, even for an automatic. These performance versions need to shift faster, which would in-turn add some jolts to add some drama back into the drive. I wish they had kept with the DCT, since those also require some throttle management to get them to shift right where the ZF8 torque converter auto gives no f*cks and shifts on-time, all-the-time, every-time and there's nothing to it.
@@bobc2039 Probably have a clutch too weak for the power with too light of an action and a decent amount of rev-hang. That's how it is in the Mk.7 Golf R (even a modestly tuned GTI slips), I don't expect they've invested anything into the manual box they are sending to the US for the Mk. 8. I have an S3 and definitely would have preferred they brought the stick over here like they at-first promised they would, but judged against other sticks it would not have been a great one. I'm spoiled by the ZF6 in my C4; that's a GREAT-feeling transmission.
@@vomErsten The S3 is on my list too. Carwow reviewed it against the new Golf and he liked the Golf a little better because of a fun to drive factor. Perhaps I will just get a used Miata as a second car and not worry about the inevitable disappearance of the manual. My friends were sick of listening to me fret about buying the automatic S5, but I just like Audis this is my 6th one. I did have a couple of manual V6 Passats and they were fun, I switched over when they got way too soft.
@@vomErsten "I wish a luxury automaker would make their vehicle worse." That's you, that's what you sound like. No one who is actually going to buy an S4/S5 (I owned two, a '14 and an '18) would prefer their vehicle to have 'jolts for drama'... That's '97 Civic territory, not modern luxury.
i don’t mind the dual clutch on my golf r, there’s a sense of connection between me and the road but more of it comes from how the manufacture set up the car in terms of steering feel and suspension. Nowadays i do look for simplicity in a car, the more electronics the less i am interested in.
You hit the nail on the head about a lot of new manual transmission vehicles @10:05. They feel like flimsy plastic toys in comparison to older manual transmissions. I traded in my last manual transmission 2017 Civic EX because the stick felt like I could have broken it in half if I wanted to. That, combined with horrible rev hang, and the fun is totally gone.
I had a Golf GTI loaner with a DSG, which is supposedly one of the best automatics available. I couldn’t wait to get back to my manual R with its three pedals, because the engagement just wasn’t there. It never will be. I heel-and-toe on the way to work everyday.
Did you use it in sport mode? The software will "learn" your driving style over time and become more intuitive. Btw, most people prefer the R with the dsg, better suited to it's personality. Not for everyone though.
I prefer the GTI with a manual but I liked the R with the DSG more. I'm gonna try to hold onto my manual car, but in the end the auto will win - whether it's rev hang, bad engagement, other emission tech, the manuals are getting worse. That and gotta teach the wifey to drive manual
I subscribed to SavageGeese and I immediately got a robo call asking me if I was interested in extending my car warranty on my '13 Buick Verano that has only 58,000 miles on it! SavageGeese really does care about his subscribers!
I'm from Europe and here i think manuals are still king, but more and more automatics are getting offered, even in economy cars, while they used to be reserved for big luxury cars mostly. I always drove and still drive a manual, but have had a few "old" automatics and new ones, usually as company cars, so I made my wife who has been driving a manaual for about 5 years now to try an automatic, and she said it is BORING and she misses the "connection " with the car, and she's not even a car enthusiast!!! 🤣🤣. Our car is a 2009. Mazda 6 with a 6 speed manual, and it really does feel like a really good and "connected" gearbox.
I understand that automatic is better, but manual is more thrilling than pushing those knobs on the sides. There is not a day I get in my car that I don't get tired of it. Probably when I am old, I will have to let it go but until then keep driving. I do hope they improve the manual transmission.
@@TonyJer04 Well, something doesn't fit together. I'm assuming your car has a manual transmission, since that's what you say that you favor and say is more thrilling. You then say that there are not days that you don't get tired of it. So every day you _do_ get tired of it. I don't believe that, since you like manual transmissions, I just thing the wording misrepresents you. Or perhaps "my car" is actually an automatic, and actually you _do_ get tired of that!
I'm just glad I'm in europe where the affordable end of the spectrum is still available in manual. Still a bit sad to see where the industry is heading ( though it is understandable ) The only brand new 3 series available with a stick is the base model diesel and that is sad.
It's the same in the US. Manuals are mostly for economy cars and base models. With the exception of Mazda, a manual is only available if you choose the cheapest trim, or if you drop huge money on pricier performance cars.
If DCT/Fast AT works on track, great, I'm all for it! My only issue is maintenance cost and reliability at this point. I do love rowing gears myself, but you can't beat the precision and speed of modern AT's and DCTs. I've rebuilt my T56 in my C5 Z06 race car, and it was a fun experience. It's all just manual gears and levers that can be replaced cheaply and easily. AT's and DCT's are complex sets of helictical gears and overlapping clutches and whatnot + complex/expensive electronics. It's very bespoke - therefore very expensive. That's where my concern lies now.
Yes, and amen. I disagree on the "easily and cheaply" part of how a manual can be repaired, but I prefer the simplicity, reliability, control, and predictability of a manual. I have driven over two million miles in manual transmission cars and light trucks, usually get about 200,000 miles on a clutch, and have only had two transmission rebuilds/replacements.
So glad to be a European. The 2020+ Renault manual stickshifts are PERFECT - clutches are short and the bite point is exactly where it should be, and has a slight vibration in it. The stickshift has a satisfying "clunk" with some light resistance and weight in it (requires some strength to push through the barrier, but once it's past it jumps into gear by itself without effort). It feels so great to drive around a empty city at midnight or a mountain twisty road, even if it's a 1.0 economy three cylinder car. And they are heaven to revmatch with those bity throttle pedals and quickly spooling, small turbos on small-sized light engines that start pulling even at lower revs, and sound angry (like most three cylinders with not much sound isolation do). And the best thing is, they are everywhere, they are cheap, they are cheap to service, cheap to buy. I actually work at ZF and transmissions fascinate me, but I wouldn't buy an automatic. I build clutches for a living. I liked the ZF8 and I respect the DSG, but I would rather skip automatics entirely and get an EV, if I had to give up my third pedal and the stick.
I've always found engagement while driving to be the msot important thing for me regardless of the fun factor or feel. After driving manuals for a while, even fantastic autos feels like they're missing something without the clutch and manual rev matching. I know that's something I'd most likely get used to in a month with a good auto though
You won't because there's no "engagement" with automatic. You hold onto the steering wheel and watch. It becomes like watching TV. Stick with your manual if you want engagement.
Performance-wise, no question: the modern automatic wins. If I'm on the track, honestly, I'd much rather have the security of knowing the automatic won't let me botch a downshift. But fun? Manual all the way. I deeply love driving my manual GTI, but when I got a loaner with the excellent DSG, the experience was totally flat. I felt nothing. My theory is that it has to do with right-brain engagement. In a manual, you have to use your left foot, and you often steer with your left hand while shifting with the right. This makes your creative, emotional right brain a part of the experience.
I tried to adopt the modern automatic. I know the writing is on the wall so I figured I'd try to just go with it and bought a RS5 with a DCT. I couldn't stand it. I didn't have it 6 months before I traded it for a regular, much slower, S5 just to have the manual. Now I've got a C6 Z06 which only comes in manual, and I will never own an automatic again. I might eventually get an electric car, but they don't have transmissions so that doesn't count.
