In this video, we delve deep into the filmmaking decisions that make this scene from Margin Call so iconic. This is our first video essay/breakdown, so please subscribe for more!
I've worked in banking and been in tense meetings similar to this. It's very accurate. What most people miss is that John knows exactly what is going on and what he wants to do before entering the room. The meeting is really for him to sell the plan to everyone and make sure everyone is on the same page. The other major thing most people miss is that Demi Moore's character was the head of risk and she was hiding or downplaying how bad things were getting from upper management. Peter Dale was fired for figuring it out and she tried to bury it.
I don't fully agree. I think they all knew it, but she was tasked with making sure it didn't show up. The top guys ALWAYS have a fall guy when they engage in activity like this.
Agreed, I too have been in meetings similar to this one, even tougher ones actually. The top 10 leaders would never be allowed to brainstorm a major direction change in front of a man like John. Plus, John would have sold his plan to his top three lieutenants before the meeting started and this meeting would simply be a strategy meeting to align all of the cross functional organizations conserning the day's activities to reshape the company.
Disagree on Demi’s character. she clearly mentions after the meeting and in the meeting with John,that she had informed senior management this was going to happen. She however didn’t clarify how it was received, possibly just given a bigger bonus to be quiet about it. She was let go not because of not informing but let go as she was the public face of where the company was going to put the blame; Compliance. She had an idea this was going to happen which is why she had Dale laid off, hoping this would appease the need for someone to fall on the sword. Not knowing that John and the board were looking much higher. The man John shakes hands with is most likely a board representative, which is why he directly shows the respect in greeting him.
I agree. It's also quite poetic - John's reaction is essentially "if a rocket scientist can figure it out, the market can't be far behind." It essentially turns the analist from smartest person in the room, to last to find out.
I was a trader for 7 years and I am amazed how Margin Call portrays the different personas at every rank so incredibly precisely. The junior technical analyst, the trader hype boy, the manager, the managing director, etc, etc. It is an absolute masterpiece bar absolutely none in that respect.
I am curious if you would be willing to share some of your experience as a trader? I’ve been doing it about 2 years now, still backtesting and refining edge. Progress is slow, but I can feel I get better. Why did you stop working in that space?
Never understood why they were called traders. Salesman would be a better label. I was a trader in the T-Bond futures pit in Chicago and off floor since.
THE worst thing is that the rank is at any institution, we are sheeps..check now how the economy will crash and we are doing Nothing only watching stupid netflix.
I like to think the genius of Tuld/Irons is when he "plays dumb" and says "explain it to me like a golden retriever or a small child" he's actually saying "explain to these six-figure idiots seated at the table here"
he never yells or kills the messenger. this is what few bosses know, that raising voices and bad tone will make your people not to tell the truth. tuld is a master of getting the naked truth from his people.
The way I interpret this is not "explain it to me," or even "explain it to us," but instead a ploy to see if anyone outside his inner circle knows what's going on
If someone can explain something complex in a simple way, that is a useful skill to have. To me Irons is testing his aptitude and that is why Sullivan keeps his job
Great analysis. I am, too, fascinated by this scene and have watched it many times. 1. Tuld's downplaying his intelligence is downright scary. When he says "It was not brains that got me here" it sounds like self deprecation but it also has a threatening undertone (like in "it was not my smarts but my ruthlessness that got me here"). 2. When Tuld asks Sullivan to "explain the nature of the problem", his body language is very telling. His expression tells that he knows already. 3. When Tuld says "The figures don't make sense anymore" it is a thowback to a previous scene when Jared says "1+1 no longer makes 2" 4. One of the best moments of the scene is when Tuld, recognizing the hesitation, says "You're speaking with me, Mr. Sullivan". 5. Sullivan says that if the assets drop by just 25% then the loss would be greater than the value of the company. But they also tell that at the end of the day they'll trade at .65 at a dollar or less. This is why Rogers says "Really?" when Tuld says "I'll have to pay." 6. When Tuld acknowleges Sullivan's contribution, it is foreshadowing that he's not going to be fired, he's going to be promoted. 7. Throughout the scene, Paul Bettany's expressions are also worth noting. He's terrified as he's going to have to execute all this as head of trading. Actually, all of the face expressions are very well played, from the secretary's painful sleep-deprived look, to Seth's clueless and uncomfortable expressions, to Will's terrified expression, all are great. 8. Sarah's body language is also interesting. She shows fear and keeps quiet to try to avoid blame (which will get her fired in the end). The only time she speaks is about Eric Dale, who she fired. 9. At the end of the meeting, Tuld asks Carmello to get Eric Dale. This is a throwback to the previous scene when Jared asks "is it really possible that we don't know where Eric Dale is?". They're both thinking about loose ends. Also the camera never focuses on Carmello, which gives him a threatening presence.
I also noticed Will’s expression when Tuld said he’s gonna have to pay…Will raised his eyebrows right when he said it as if, he was both not expecting hear that and excited for the possibility of making some serious money.
Will's expression is nervous/scared because the company is going to do what he feared: dump all the mortgage bonds that very day. Earlier he had told Seth and Peter, while sitting on the edge of the roof, just that and that the company never loses. "You'll see," he said. The higher-ups knew that Tuld would have to dump it from the moment they found out that the problem was rearing its ugly head. Peter didn't discover an unknown problem; he discovered that the problem had arrived.
@@chrisstapleton5652 Will's also nervous/scared because he knows what he has to do to get all this off the books, and it's going to require him burning just about every contact he has at the other trading companies. This is significant and highlighted later in the trader floor meeting about the fire sale.
@BebtelovimabI don’t think they did know. I think they were pushing so much leverage that they’d blown through their risk allowance. Basically they got greedy and the market called them on it. They didn’t know it was going to happen. But they DID know they were taking unacceptable risks for obscene profits.
I love how Tuld spots that Sullivan is looking awkwardly at Jared and Sarah and says 'You're speaking with me Mr Sullivan'. A brilliant way of stating his control and superiority over the group and giving Peter permission to speak his mind without any potential future retaliation.
Sam could be unafraid to say “Do you?” to Tuld because it is implied that they have a long relationship due to the fact that Sam is the only one to call Tuld by his first name.
@@danielterry382 Considering John personally convinces Sam to stay at the end, it's very much implied that they have known eachother for a long time. And given that they're roughly the same age, they may even have worked as low level brokers and John simply advanced further than Sam either could or wanted to. Given that Sam happens to have a concious i'd argue he simply didn't have what it "takes" to advance higher.
Sam is not challenging him. He is cautioning an old friend about the wisdom of the path that his friend wants to take. Will's discussion in the car with the analyst made clear the stakes. If the Treasury and/or the Fed acted as decisively before Lehman as it did after Lehman, Tuld's firm would have lost a lot of money.
Exactly, Sam tells the audience in the first 5 minutes of the movie, he's been with the company 34 years. He's seen ups and downs, people come and go, (including people above him, like Jared) etc. And obviously he's is on a first name basis with the CEO; including being able to challenge him, despite him being somewhat down the pecking order. He's always kept his nose out of trouble, but is very good at his job. The CEO sees his value, respects his opinion and compensates him every chance he gets, and goes out of his way to give him time to talk in depth. The CEO could have said "I don't care what you think" and not bother to explain his position further. But he has several private meetings with Sam to discuss the landscape. And, in the end Sam "sells his soul to the devil" in a way- because he participates in something he thinks is wrong- but he doesn't have an alternative solution. In the end, he reverts back to the guy who's kept his head down for 34 years. And, the last scene of the movie, we find the price he paid fully- lost his wife, probably estranged from his son, and finally loses his dog even- for a buck
Jeremy Irons has way less screen time in the movie than other characters, yet he steals the movie. The moment he enters the room charged with confidence and energy and everybody seems to be kind of afraid of him you can tell he (his character) is the boss. What a magnificient actor. Everytime I watch this scene, I discover more details behind it and you covered many of them and explained them very well. Great analysis!
It is rare to see a dozen A-List actors in one movie. They all do a fantastic job in their roles, each with their own persona. No fighting matches or overt good -v- bad guys. The story line is beautifully written. One of my favorite movies.
Thanks for your comment! I agree, the script is so well-written. The acting is impeccable. I did a video diving more into the structure of the film - hope you like it.
Tuld is a brilliant character and this is some of the best ten minutes you'll see in cinema. The reason this scene is so effective is because Tuld's character is so nuanced. IMO, Irons deserved an Oscar for this and so did the writing. Some observations: 1. This is a company funeral. The first woman (probably Tuld's assistant) wears a solemn face, head bowed, all black, and her blouse is almost crafted like a lace funeral veil. She looks down as though the company is already underground, foreshadowing the demise of something, someone, or both. Then, in comes death himself, Tuld. 2. The director's view of Tuld is that he is on his own, the sole leader, and king of his space. He is always in a single shot by himself. He stops for no one except the other man in the red tie (a peer). The only time he is seen with others is when he says "I have" in response to Peter's assumption that Tuld has seen that the business is profitable. While it is an admission, it is almost as though Tuld is saying "I did see that but so did everyone else, so I'm not as culpable as you think." 3. Tuld's in-charge attitude. Tuld strides in confidently and immediately puts everyone else on the back foot by pairing an apology about the early start with a scolding about the 'lack of action' from his subordinates. He also re-directs Peter and says "You're speaking with me, Mr. Sullivan". He is the judge, jury, and executioner. 4. Tuld distances himself from the situation by asking "why doesn't somebody tell me what's going on here" as though he is completely oblivious to the nature of the problem. He's seeking protection from liability or hiding his intentions. 5. Tuld is never fully self-deprecating and threatens at the same time. While he says "it's not brains that got me here..." (which is meant to be disarming) he then flashes a broad grin and flicks the booklet as though he has started a countdown clock. 6. Tuld uses movement to maintain power. He adjusts his body position to give full attention to the person he is speaking to, almost how a King would address a subject. He also stands, perhaps when pushed into a corner or out of suppressed nervousness, and towers over everyone to regain control. When he asks Peter why he's so highly paid, he arches his fingers like a piano player (a power gesture). 7. When he lies, he can't maintain eye contact. After he says "I don't cheat" his eyes turn downward. Cheating is somewhat the plan of action that he ends up advocating for. 8. Tuld is not as emotionally secure as we think and Sam (blue tie) is his biggest adversary in this scene. When Tuld is challenged he immediately becomes aggressive, moves forward and snarls. Tuld accuses Sam of "not understanding", which is an instinctual emotional defense mechanism; Tuld has been drawn into an emotional misstep but recovers from it quickly. He covers his mouth after telling Sam to justify his devious plan with tactics, indicating that he is nervous about what Sam may say next. When Sam stands up to explain and challenge, Tuld's eye line looks up, an indication that he is losing power. He also now has only one hand on the table and even wags his finger at him. He is losing grip of the situation. Sam might win. 9. Tuld is paternalistic and condescending when he needs to be. "So that we may survive!". He's done with the soft sell and now he's bringing a very aggressive tone to the table. He won't negotiate anymore. He closes his body and squeezes two fingers tightly, as though he were angrily squishing Sam's protests (or maybe even Sam),. While Tuld is looking at Sam, he moves his body's attention towards his trusted lieutenant, Jared. This is almost to say "if you don't do it, we'll get it done anyway". 10. "This is it!" He bangs his finger on the table as though he held a judge's gavel in his hand. In a final, almost feigned plea, Tuld opens his arms and body to say, "If we don't do this, you can kill me now, for I will be dead anyway." 11. Tuld is a manipulative chameleon and gives Sam a gentle pat on the shoulder to smooth things over after their confrontation. He is the consummate professional and diplomat.
Spot on with Sam as the adversary. The film ended with him digging a grave. Parallel with him digging his own grave by speaking to the boss like that in public.
@@hendogg3675 I don't think Sam is an adversary. I think Tuld values him to provide a point of view, a different kind of cost he can weigh against the financial cost.
While yes, he is somewhat calm and collected, I’ll remind you of the end of the scene when he explodes with “this is it, I’m telling you this is IT”. He knows that a downturn is coming but is content to let it start with them. In real life Paulson, Bernanke and Geithner were expecting economic collapse. If you like nightmares, read “Too Big to Fail”
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I'm a stock trader, and I've seen this movie at least a dozen times. I've often wondered why I'm so compelled to watch it again and again. Your break down explains it. Now I know how they got such an incredible cast for a fairly mundane subject. Thank you.
i was disappointed by The Big Short. it could have been great but was too cartoony. Rouge Trader (1999) is one i've watched maybe so many times i can't watch it anymore. any other good trading/investing movies you know of?
@@dumbcat The Big Short is supposed ti be "ireverent" at times because t.hat story presented without humor is boring. The audience already knows that no one was held responsible.
@@dumbcat The best trading/investing movie I've ever seen is " Other People's Money " starring Danny Diveto. You could teach an entire business course from that movie. It's very information dense so you have to hang on every word, but if you do, you will learn alot about high level business decisions.
@@dumbcat The Big Short was about the impact of the crisis and how nothing really changed, it was targeted at a wide audience. Margin Call is a master class in the study of corporate politics and behavior, anyone whose worked in an investment company or bank has been in a meeting like this. The Big Short was entertaining and explained how the subprime crisis happened, Margin Call is a forensic analysis on how this happens. The best lin in the film "We can't help ourselves."
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Tuld gave Cohen and Robertson a stern look after he told Sullivan that he's talking to Tuld (directly). That is a subtle way of telling the first two that each one should have figured this out and told Tuld about the impending disaster before the kid got it all together.
I agree - this wasn’t covered in this scene breakdown which is a big miss as that single glance summarized 2-3 pages of dialogue, and as such, is an important part of this scene as it’s Tuld’s way of shutting down any coaching or influence from Cohen and/or Sullivan so, to your point, he can learn exactly what Sullivan knows before he guides everyone to consensus on his decision. Additionally, it’s fantastic acting by Irons and while it was a brief and subtle moment in the scene, it deserves to be acknowledged!
@@JevansUK she did, but that doesn't matter because it would have been premature since winding down so early would leave money on the table for the Bank. What Tuld needed was the warning right before the storm after all the money that could have been milked out of the market was skimmed off. That was also her job, but she chose to fire Dale and suppress it right when she should have disclosed it, that it's about time.
Cohen had already covered himself by briefing Tuld after the first meeting. He knew what Tuld planned and was already implementing it. That status gave him the confidence to remain quiet and let Tuld build the foundation for the fire sale. Once Tuld left the pre-planned opening, Jared leaped in with the unspeakable option. Sarah was done at that point, Put a fork in her.
Sam has seniority and expertise. He is a subject matter expert who knows his value to the company and has the confidence to be firm when he believes it is required. By the same token, he knows his rank / position in the Hierarchy and knows also when to stop arguing and carry out the orders he's been given. He is the sort of subordinate that any good leader respects and cherishes and does what is required to hold onto.
Really good analysis! I agree with you and most of the commenters here: this really is a masterclass in acting that feels like it could have been performed on a theatre stage. Here are some other things I noticed about this scene: 1. Did you notice that Seth is the only one without a tie? Not only did he look disengaged in his mannerisms, he looked professionally out of his league. 2. I liked the segue into the scene where Sam and Tuld's assistant usher in Jared, Will, Sarah, Peter and Seth stating that Tuld is already waiting for them. The first person who enters the meeting isn't actually Tuld, but is his assistant which felt like they were priming the scene to the gravitas of Tuld entering next. 3. Tuld obviously trusted Sam to the core. Sam proved this with where he thought the day would go -- he was so experienced that his instinct of the price being at 65 cents at 2pm was nearly dead on right. 4. Jeremy Irons is just so good in this role. I loved how he was attempting to be disarming with his "it wasn't brains that got me here, I can assure you of that", but simultaneously pacing his fingers on the corner of report he'll never read with his smile every so slightly dropping as he waits for Peter to start talking.
I wondered why the assistant sat at the table. Normally she would sit off to the side or down by Carmelo. I thought everyone knew that Tuld was there because they heard/saw the chopper. On the roof. I assumed her entrance followed by Tuld was standard at that firm. Tuld does not impress me as a manage by walking around kind of guy.
Thank you so much! And excellent observations! I think Margin Call would be spectacular as a stage play. 1. I love how the costuming shows how Seth is out of his league. Seth doesn't have his tie at the club, and then is seen putting it back on when he and Will are at the parking garage. 2. Great observation. Another comment talks about her expression when she enters the room - it primes us that Tuld is in a bad mood 3. That's so true about Sam's instincts! 4. Another comment talks about how when Tuld says "it wasn't brains that got me here," it's a bit scary because then what did get him there?! Probably ruthlessness. I posted another Margin Call video - let me know what you think!
@@michaelblazin4093 Thanks for your comment! I think she says "He's ready for you" - so they knew he was there, but not that he was ready for the meeting to start.
Seth is a quirky character. He is the lowest rank employee at the "big meeting", completely subservient to his workplace superiors, and can't go an hour without a drink at night (except for the "big meeting"). He's kind of a functioning alcoholic: drinking at the bar with Bettany's character, drinking back at the office while looking at Peter's fateful spreadsheet, drinking while out looking for Eric, and still drinking upon returning to the office thereafter. No wonder he can't keep a handle on his tie...it's probably all the lad can do to fight his acid reflux at that point in the night. At the same time, he is the only employee in the entire movie who can read and understand Peter's spreadsheet without it being explained to him.
I think the point of the price not dropping to 65c on the dollar until just before trading closed for the day, instead of by lunchtime as Sam had suggested, was to demonstrate just how damned effective Sam had been at leading the trading floor through this fire sale.
I can't help but watch this scene whenever it comes across my feed. I have participation in meetings where there might be around a million dollars of a project that's in discussion, but the stakes here in this scene are almost impossible to comprehend. There's no extravagant set pieces, no ostentatious camera effects, just fluorescent office lighting and a round table. But you can sense the immense amount of tension and suspense in the air...thank you for the excellent breakdown bezel media. 👍
Thanks so much for your comment! I also love how natural the film feels, yet it sneaks in a lot of additional meaning through the editing and other filmmaking techniques. There are a lot of videos breaking down the finance aspects of the movie, and I wanted to show appreciation for it as a film as well. I posted another Margin Call video - I hope you like it!
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I worked in NY banking during this period. As head of risk during the 2008 crisis I granted liquidity lines to major banking counterparties. Some time later we were hit by an existential enforcement action. All I can say is that the portrayals in this scene are incredibly accurate and beautifully acted. This is exactly how these kind of things are handled in NY banks. It is very close to actually being there. This film is virtually a documentary.
When John says “this is it! i’m telling you this is it”, what exactly does he mean? That this is the necessary course of action or this is the end of the firm? Or?
@@revo1974 Thanks for your comment! That's a great question. I think he means "This our moment - if we don't do this then the firm won't survive. This is the only course of action." When John says "this is it" again in his meeting with Sam, Sam asks him what he means. John replies with "This is the big one. Most of us [Wall Street] aren't gonna make it out of this one." So the "this" is the impending crash. I hope that answers your question. Also, the film barely mentions it, but it's implied that the other firms had worthless MBS products too, the other firms just didn't know it yet. So it's not just about offloading their worthless products, its about not obtaining any new ones as well.
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Back in 2003 I worked in a ship project in Italy, in Ancona, and there was technical difficulties, a relativly heated meeting in the shipyard was held, lasting for hours, during my work on the yard I had noticed two elderly men on the yard and was puzzled they where in the meeting, saying nothing, after the meeting I asked an Italian colleague who those strange guys was, where he replied, oh, they are the owners of the yard
I've had that experience as an engineering consultant a few times. I'm on a new customer's premises in a meeting together with all sorts of slick looking company executives, the talk is about a lot of money, risk, deadlines and all the time there's some guy in jeans, wearing a 2 sizes too big knitted pullover and slippers sitting quietly at one end of the table not saying a word. It turns out he's the owner. It pays to treat everyone with respect even if the individual looks like a homeless bum.
@@viarnay- yes it did, actually I was the "weak link" and new resources was brought in, (it was nothing wrong with me, the project was only too complex for me and my managers had underestimated the complexity, I was alone, and later, on similar projects they sent some 8 to 10 men, so I did a pretty good job, only not good enough)
@@mikethespike7579 - someone that have been around and know how it is to be a "king" should make a video on RU-vid about this, how it is possible to sit and saying nothing, ironically it could be the reason why they sit there, because they do not say anything, but I do not have this personality, I would have micro managed everything and probably ruined my company, perhaps these silent managers/owners have a trust to their people, it is anyhow pretty puzzling
@@doncarlodivargas5497 I think it's a case of knowing that you've made it in life when you're the owner of a big company able to sit at executive meetings unshaven, wearing jeans, a self knitted pullover and carpet slippers and not say a word.
When Tuld says "The music is about to stop", it is not about the music of the movie, he is referencing a famous quote by the CITI CEO at that time: “As long as the music is playing, you’ve got to get up and dance”. This means that even if you know that the market is in a bubble and with ultimately pop, you cannot exit too early. Exiting way early is much worse than exiting a little late because you are missing on the best part of the party and you look foolish for a long time. But here Tuld realizes that he might be not just a little late (take some losses) but way too late (firm gets wiped out and he becomes a disgraced former CEO).
Although, yes, it is an old adage, you are exactly correct - As per NYT, 2007: Chuck Prince famously said about Citigroup's continued commitment to leveraged buy-out deals, despite fears of reduced liquidity because of the occurring sub-prime meltdown: "As long as the music is playing, you’ve got to get up and dance."
Thanks for your comment. The line is also a reference to the game hot potato. The film lacking a score in this scene was a clever way to have the sound design match the script, and that's why I pointed out that there was no score. In-universe, the characters are unaware of the film's score.
I found it interesting how Peter subtly corrected John about his analogy regarding the bag of excrement, and the music slowing. John responds to this by just as subtly putting Peter in his place by saying, "let me tell you something", and then citing his own opinion based on experience. I've seen this in the workplace, though typically not as subtle. Peter was slightly embarrassed by his attempt to correct the boss. However, John appeared grateful after a moment by crediting the meeting's reliance on Peter's information. I thought the scene was done quite well.
I, too, have watched this scene over and over again during the past couple of years. Only on my third viewing did it finally 'dawn on me' that Tuld had decided before the meeting his chosen outcome. He wanted the room to understand the need. His choice of who to allow to speak, was key. I still enjoy watching the body language of those present, reflecting their thoughts, as the meeting progressed.
it seems Tuld and Sam have known each other for a long time, likely that they joined the firm at similar times and/or similar positions. Sam seems like the only person Tuld really respects and fond of and let him get away with a lot of sassy tones throughout the movie.
Also, Sam is a nuts and bolts guy and a sales leader. When you are at the top you need a loyal person like that in operations. It wasn't Jared or Robertson or any of the board members that executed the plan. It was Sam. Sam had the chops along with the contacts in the rank and file. And that's why Sam gets a pass every time.
This is correct. The source of Sam's lack of concern and of his power is that he is the only one who can make the wheels turn when the time comes to act. That is why he is safe; he will be a part of the solution no matter what. When he says to Tuld that he wants out he is really saying that he'll have to be paid to stay in, and Tuld agrees to that. When he says he needs the money he is partly telling the truth but partly saying that he has worked to be indispensable and knows that he is entitled to be paid for that. Tuld and he are the two who really run the place and they understand each other fully. Peter also understands -- his reticence in telling the story is an act, the act of the extremely talented junior person, who can't allow himself to show openly how much smarter he is than most of the others in the room, but who is himself not really scared because he is confidently correct on the substance. How clueless people can be is demonstrated by the Demi Moore character -- the statement "we have to study this" is always wrong at critical moments, when you have to decide and to act on what knowledge you have. It is important that the story is really told from Sam's point of view. He is the only one whose personal situation is revealed and fits into his actions in the firm. He lives a hollowed-out life; the death of his dog is the most important thing happening in it, and his daft action of burying the dog in the yard of the house he used to live in and his former wife still lives in -- she obviously divorced him rather than the reverse -- underscores that. Sam is someone who knows what's coming and what must be done but also knows that of it is survivable at all he will be a survivor.
Great breakdown. Something else that I always noticed in this scene is how Jared starts to explain it and John says "you know what I want to speak to the guy who wrote this, is he here?" and Jared just "tosses the mic" to Peter. I mean he just puts Peter right on the spot, no hesitation. Can you imagine how stressful it must be to just get called upon just like that to explain something to the board?
I don't know if I've ever seen an actor impact a film so much in so little time. He plays the role perfectly, exactly as a powerful CEO would be. In, out, short and to the point. He can get more results in fewer words than everyone in the room combined. The writing and directing are also perfect.
In every scene where the camera pans past Sarah Robertson, her body language betrays that she is absolutely terrified but trying very hard to hide it. Really exceptional acting by Demi Moore.
I've read comments criticising Demi Moore but I agree she's exceptional in this. She realises early on that she's the prime candidate to take the fall but doesn't want to show weakness, especially when everyone gives her a cold look every time the firing of Eric Dale is mentioned.
Jared waited to respond to the question 'what do you have for us?' because he didn't want to recommend doing something without knowing first that Tuld wanted to do it. He didn't get that job by taking shots in the dark. He knew Tuld was more than just aware of the problem, but had probably already discussed it with the board and how to deal with it. When Tuld says 'it's a hell of a lot easier to be first' that was Jared's cue to recommend 'sell it all, today.'
You hit the nail on the head! This is Jared’s is clearly Tuld’s protege, being groomed one day for the top job. Jared in the previous meeting was floored by the realisation about MBS on global markets. Worse, he would have to break it to his mentor, about the bag of ‘excrement’ Tuld’s no stranger to bloodbaths in the markets, highlighted in his chat with Sam after the meeting. When Jared reveals before the meeting, he has already spoke to Tuld, Sam says ‘you’d better not be doing what I think you are’ This illustrates Jared lacks the authority at the meeting, and also foreshadows Sam’s pushback. Jared and Tuld have already decided to sell it all immediately. Better that Jared propose it so that Tuld can increasingly advocate the way forward to being one of necessity.
You nailed it. Jared already told Sam earlier what he planned to do. He just wanted subtle confirmation from his boss before he put it out there. And John knew what Jared would suggest, which is why it took less than a second to pivot back to Sam. Excellent script and acting.
@Bezel Media, I'm happy that I'm not the only one thinking that this scene is a masterclass in acting and filming... I lost the count of how many time I watched it...
Thanks for your comment! Glad you also like the scene - even after making the video there are new things I notice. And I made another video about Margin Call, feel free to check it out
Like you, I had never heard of margin call until RU-vid dropped it in my lap. Since then I have watched clips many times over and I've seen the whole movie I believe on Netflix every time I watch a scene or have seen this movie I am completely impressed. It is done so incredibly well. I haven't taken the time to put my finger on exactly why but the acting , the photography, the story, the speeches, the writing is just great. I'm glad to know that other people feel the same way and that I'm not alone in thinking this. Thank you
It’s a great set up. Tuld is trying to give the idea that he’s relaxed, unconcerned, and has everything under control. Jokester John with his folksy mixed metaphor. He does it again when he jokes about explaining what happened to him the way you might explain technical business jargon to a dog. If the boss is joking at a time like this, he must not be worried. Irons says everything in the way he thumbs the cover of the report in front of him. It may seem like an harmless idle fidget but it betrays his whole mental state. Tuld isn’t relaxed - despite the hour, he is in the zone, wide awake, laser focused. He walked into that meeting knowing exactly how he wants it to go and he’s anxious to get through it - even though he knows that for his plan to work, the meeting can’t be rushed and he has to stay calm. So he jokes and smiles, but that little flick-flick-flick-flick in the quiet room will have set everyone who knows him on edge.
This is a great movie. It's definitely worth multiple viewings. Your analysis is superb. This particular scene is densely filled with nuances. One of my favorites is when Peter is explaining things to John Tuld and briefly glances to Cohen. Tuld notices this and reminds Peter that he is speaking to him, not Cohen. Then glances back to Cohen with such steely coldness. Whew! That is powerful.
i find the eye contact of Tuld a nice detail after he explained "you talk to me".. .then he looks, after he ensured he is in focus again, again to the 2 on his right, without a smile, to ensure they do not interact. Fine detail
Just a couple notes: 1. The copy guy is in on this meeting. An indication of how tightly they're guarding the information as well as an indication of how the fire sale will affect the firm and the world in general top to bottom. 2. Carmello apirates into the chair at the foot of the table. Several angles show either no chair or an empty seat until Tuld summons him.
Great observations. You had me looking back at the first meeting scene to see if it was the copy guy - and that scene never shows his tie or face! I assume it's him but I guess the movie wanted to keep it a mystery haha. I will have to look back at the scene to see how it cuts around Carmelo.
@@BezelMedia Presumably she also works in the copy room. Or, they think, or know, that copy guy spoke to her at some point, and they can't be sure he didn't tell her what was in the report.
My thoughts regarding Peter are that he has a romantic and also cynical perspective at the same time. He seems flattered that he is part of this meeting and he has to explain things to the big boss, this is something new and exciting to him. His tone changes when he says that he likes working in the industry due to the money he makes, it seems to me that he doesn’t want to give the impression he is naive. So I think the actor is doing an excellent job at portraying someone at a junior level, who comes out of university and tries to fit in the competitive environment of an investment bank.
Interesting observation. I think Peter is jaded because he got a PhD and was a rocket scientist, yet discovered it wasn't lucrative. He switched to finance because there was more money. So he's jaded about the time he spent and how it didn't work in his favor initially, I think. He says twice that he's surprised at how much money his superiors make. As you said, Peter has a romantic view in a way as well - he doesn't realize the level of ruthlessness required at the higher levels. He knows how the system works, but realizes throughout the film how the firm will do whatever is necessary to survive. I talk about Peter more in my "be first, be smarter, or cheat" video - let me know what you think!
The Big Short. Margin Call. Inside Job. In that order unmissable watching. This particular scene gave me a Matrix vibe, the color tones make you feel that it's a different world, and Wall Street is a different world for sure.
Interesting comparison with the Matrix - it does feel like a wholly contained world. I've never seen Inside Job. I usually see people say the "unofficial" trilogy is The Big Short, Margin Call, and Too Big to Fail
@@BezelMedia Ahh yes in movie terms that would be the trilogy. Inside Job is a documentary film, was released a year before Too Big To Fail, interviews with people involved rather than actors playing a part. Worth a watch!
Great detail, thank you, I'm another devotee of this scene. True story: 1998 I was working in automotive and had to make a financial presentation to a new high-level french guy who came with a vicious reputation. Before the meeting started he had a row with our regional director in front of us all and threatened to take him out of the room and deal with him privately (our guy backed down, never seen that before). Then I stood up to present the slides, he made me sit down again because he wanted to study some details in his paper copy first, so we all sat in terrified silence for at least five minutes, it felt longer. Eventually he looked up and said "Now you can start the presentation", so up went slide number 1 on the overhead projector. "No no no," he yelled, "I don't want to see that, I want to start at page 36". ("Bastard" I thought). So I reached for my transparent slides and went through them, but page 36 wasn't there. I had prepared it, it was in all the paper copies distributed around the room, but it was not in the transparencies for my presentation. As I felt my life ebbing away I looked at him (in front of my colleagues, my boss, and his boss) and said "I'm sorry Mr B___ but I don't have page 36", he growled at me and said "So, I am unlucky, yes?" and the only thing I could think of to say was "Er, no Mr B___, I am unlucky", and amazingly he laughed! "So, we will use what we have in front of us instead" he yelled and off we went and I got away with it. Others were not so lucky, at least I knew my numbers well enough if not my filing. The reason it was missed was that we were juggling the numbers until late the night before, and every change required a reprint of the papers and slides, so something got missed. He was a tough boss, sharp as a razor and just as dangerous if not handled professionally, but he really really knew his stuff.
Here is a scene from Schindler's List. One of the actual survivors says that Goethe burst out laughing when it happened. Cruel, powerful people also have a sense of humour but not one that the rest of us understand. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-gY5QGaU0H_c.html
If this were a film I'd be thinking that guy took page 36 deliberately and later specifically asked for it knowing it wasn't there to see how you'd react.
@@benoitb.3679 Maybe, I just had to be myself, as honest and professional as possible, because anything less got chewed up. Politics was everything in that firm, I got shit on by a guy who I thought was a friend because he was chasing a promotion, he set me up and I walked into it. He got his promotion but left a year later and moved to Vegas leaving his wife and 3 kids behind. He then sent me a connections request on Linkedin, that got fukin deleted.
Tuld and Jared knew this was coming. The giveaway was in a previous meeting scene, when Jared, Sarah, and Ramesh are brought up to speed. Jared steps out for just a moment, and when he comes back in, he's already contacted Tuld, and the wheels are in motion. They must've had a codephrase, there was not nearly enough time to explain the problem. Sam might've known too, given what he says then, though he never thought the nuclear option would be used. The tipping point for all of them is that one of their lowest-rung employees figured out the sudden fragility of their leverage, and if he could figure it out, other non-clued-in quants on the Street could, and then it would be a Street-wide race to unload, with too many sellers and almost no buyers.
I love your comment about the codeword idea. I also struggled to think how Jared had not only phoned Tuld but relayed what was about to happen, in less than 10 seconds when he was out the room. Because obviously that was the moment he was contacting him, but the time didn't make sense. A single codeword would give the nature of the issue, and the importance to get back to the office at 4am, as well as not leaving a trace of what was about to happen (similar to the 'not a good idea' to send an email)
Never thought I’d see the day where I get a video about Margin Call, let alone an analysis video, in my recommendations. Loved seeing this movie as a teenager, this scene always stood out in my mind alongside some select others. Would highly recommend seeing this one regardless of what you’re into, but especially if you like dramatic pieces.
Thanks for your comment. There are several breakdowns of the financial aspects of Margin Call, and I felt that it also deserved breakdowns about it as a film
It’s really interesting that Will’s last sale happens right before close. It implies that both parties have an understanding of what the bank is trying to do, and the situation in general; that they have reached informational parity. But they are still able to agree on a price.
Sullivan looking at Cohen and Robertson before continuing the explanation is because he’s reluctant to step outside of the chain of command. He knows that what he says could be taken as implied criticism of how they both have been running the show. He is worried about the consequences once the meeting is over, regarding retaliation from them. Tuld recognises this, which is why he says “You’re speaking with me, Mr. Sullivan”, as a reminder that he outranks both Cohen and Robertson, and is the one Sullivan is ultimately responsible to.
i have gotten into intense meethings in the same industry a couple of times. What suprised me watching this scence was how all those details actually happened in mine as well -- including a senior director/md preping/warning how to talk to the CEO, everyone devicing their strategies, company's popular kid (golden boy) in spot light, the handshake or one line greeting to a somehow important person and all that.
I've watched these scene so many times. And I am floored by the quality of the acting and in the writing. So much so that I don't know if I want to see the film and be disappointed.
This was one of the smartest movies (written, acted) of our time. And certainly a fair depiction of the subprime mortgage crisis of 2007 and the resulting economic turmoil.
Thanks for your comment! I've been surprised by how few people know about it as well. It premiered at Sundance so I feel it should be more well known. I would love to know how RU-vid has impacted the film - I'm sure the streaming numbers are much higher because of the scenes being uploaded. Also, I posted another Margin Call video - hope you like it!
I want to go back again and again to this sudden masterpiece, and the more I think about stuff the more I realize that it's really one of the most interesting and genius films of two decades
John not only makes his own rules, with the malaphor, but he redefines the notion of synthesys itself by joining two methaphors, that have a consequential relationship between them, into one new image and metaphor. He is the metaphor of the metaphors. (In the story, I think) That is also why he talks so plainly as well, because the synthesis are the key to him, not their representations, he sees the world through synthesis as well, in every engagement he has. There is also aways a sense of conclusion with him. (Such a masterful performance too! True piece of art)
I also think the malaphor isn't a sign of dullness (feigned or otherwise), but cleverness on his part. Also self-aware cleverness, he knows he's being witty. And finally because he is so in control, he can afford to be witty and mildly humorous (by employing a malaphor) at a time when everyone else is freaking out about a crisis (and having to face him).
My favorite tactic that Tuld uses is reframing the problem out of the realm of "what should we do" and instead into a purely theoretical/analytical space. "How would you do it if I made you?" Sam is a smart and agreeable problem-solver type and can't resist the temptation to offer a solution even if he doesn't agree with the very plan he's offering.
I liked how Jon’s demeanour complete changes only after he notices a concerned look from Jon, the other red tie, who was intently listening to Peter explain the problem.
When Peter cautiously looks over to Jared and Sarah before explaining the situation further, Told says, “You’re speaking to me now…” Told then immediately shoots daggers at Jared and Sarah. That split-second mannerism always stood out to me, I wondered about the meaning behind that particular glance.
I interpreted it as a grandfather taking the side of a child over a mother and father during an argument (even though in this scenario will or eric would be the symbolic parent, but I digress)
My read on it was... different, a few shades. That look was Tuld signaling them his displeasure at - apparently - making Peter hesitant to speak candidly. He wanted Peter to not have to watch for office-politics landmines, just to tell what was happening and what he knew. And he was doubtlessly aware Sarah had done SOMETHING but it wasn't until late in the scene when he heard about Eric Dale... And when he was aware of what happened through Jared, he stared at Sarah for a painful long second before he just told Carmelo to "get him here". That look, that look directly at Sarah, was when her fate was sealed. Not before this meeting, but because she thoroughly mishandled the problem and there was now a loose end out "somewhere".
@@asherfaulkner5696 I love this movie, by the way, because everyone in it seems to disappear into the moment. It's indeed a lot like theatre over film, no real action to speak of. I love hearing how actors took pay cuts to allow this movie to be made, so they could be part of it. I love how it was a chance taken on a script which definitely needed to be made. (... also, I love seeing Simon Baker do work. )
Thank you. Your analysis plus the comments allowed me to see so much more than I had at first. I instinctively understood some but now it's amazing. Keep posting!
When I first watched this movie 10+ years ago, I was awestruck at the prestige of the different altitudes slowly being revealed as the movie progressed. Once Jeremy Irons walked into the scene, I, the viewer, was on the edge of my seat. This isa rewatchable movie for me
It gives me great joy seeing more and more videos for this iconic movie. Saw it back in 2013 before it became so popular, and was shocked how little attention it received. Its a master piece for a fin movie, and rivals Oliver Stone's Wall Streetand Gorden Gigko.
Thanks for your comment! I feel like RU-vid has given this movie a second life. I wonder what the numbers for this movie look like "under the hood" as it were - how the viewing numbers changed after the Extractor channel posted the scenes. I also wonder if anyone involved in the making of the film knows how popular it is now
i first saw it around 2014 and though the exact same thing. this scene was instantly and permanently etched in my memory and i must admit it is rather satisfying to see it dissected and praised all these years later
6 месяцев назад
For me as someone who works as a administrator the best kind of funny scene is just before the meeting when Sam and Jared want to wait for Tuld in front and the secretary says he is waiting for you inside, and they enter and Tuld comes after them inside. What a nice trick by the secretary.
This is one amazing breakdown of this iconic scene. After watching this movie I always try to see the power dynamics in my office meetings with senior leadership. Who is the alpha and how people will go to any lengths to not rub them up the wrong way.
Thank you so much! It definitely makes me reflect on some of my own experiences as well. I made another breakdown about some of the dynamics in the movie - I hope you like it.
Perfect analysis of the intense scene in one of my favorite movies. Working in corporate finance for 40 years - most creditable exchange of what happens in board rooms in the early morning hours.......great movie!!! Great review!!
Thank you so much! I really appreciate it. I'm sure that you have lots of insights on Margin Call from your finance background! I posted another Margin Call video - please check it out.
The red tie detail is SO important. As you said, there is only one person Tuld shakes hands with -- even acknowledges -- as he comes into the room. And Other Red Tie Guy is very important to this scene. At one point when Peter starts his explanation, right as he is getting to the heart of the issue (literally the line "from a risk management standpoint") the camera cuts to Other Red Tie Guy, who is listening intently and holding his glasses. I think he's someone who even Tuld needs to keep happy. Maybe a Chairman Emeritus or someone on the Board with a key role, or the General Counsel. In fact, since it's clear once you have seen the movie and this scene many times that Tuld knew everything that was going on before he walked into that room, and the whole point of the scene is to make it seem evitable that they would need to "sell it all", I think the reason for the meeting, and Tuld and Jared's little back and forth, may have been to put on a show for Other Red Tie Guy. Another piece of evidence: When Tuld says "you are speaking with me, Mr. Sullivan" Tuld then glances to his right. The first time I saw that I assumed it was glance to Jared and Sarah, but if look closely Tuld is glancing to more than a couple people on that side of the table. I think he is stealing a glance to Other Red Tie Guy to make sure he is appreciating the situation properly. By the way, one other red tie detail. There is some sort of intern or other young person behind Tuld. He has a blue shirt but no jacket and he is also wearing a kind of red tie. Not the exact same; it looks cheaper and a darker red. But he's clearly trying to imitate the behavior and dress of the grown-ups in the room.
@@vinceslapchopper Yes, exactly. perhaps the board's Chairman, or perhaps the firms' biggest shareholder or their representative. I took Tuld's mannerism during the handshake to indicate that this is the guy even he ultimately answers to. Hence why he did not need to speak to project his power in a room of the firm's power players.
John also had knowledge about the greater political-economic situation that he wasn't letting on. It was implied he was talking with Spacey's character privately and Spacey realized he was operating with a greater level of knowledge. This would allude to the fact that a lot of the people in these upper tiers of big investment firms are well connected and informed politically, they keep the same circles of associates and get inside information about geopolitical events.
I think the most important thing is that he realized the bigger picture far better. That it was not just this bank that was about to fail, but that it was all banks. And that the US government would give nearly all a golden parachute anyway, but that business would be even far more better if his bank was the only one that did not have to rely on that.
Great observation. John lists off a bunch of financial crises towards the end of the film - while this one was particularly destructive, he had weathered storms before and knew the history.
The term you use "theatrical" is the perfect framing.. This excellent clip and has sparked an informative and absorbing thread underneath it. I have watched this scene dozens of times and completely missed the two red ties thing - well done.
Upon release, I saw this on the big screen, in stereo; simply stunning. The 'spilt milk' scene always threw me as intentionally not right. Your idiom blend (malaphor) explanation was both enlightening and educating, well done; always learning. Also, would love to see a breakdown of the 'be first, be smarter, or cheat...' excellent case study and analysis, subbed!
Lucky! I think Margin Call is beautifully shot and would love to see it on a proper screen. I posted the video about "be first, be smarter, or cheat" - let me know what you think! Thank you for subscribing, I really appreciate it.
good break down & yes i'm also guilty even though i own the dvd i still watch it & the big short over & over again here on youtube. i can't get enough.
You glazed over it but I think you would have focused on the discussion (hinted at earlier) that the top brass and John ALL knew about this. This was a key detail.
Having worked in business - this movie is scarily accurate. The quiet focused and terse statements were absolutely on point as well as the intensity of the honesty of the failing internally but lack of care of where the fallout will land externally. It's *chef's kiss* brilliant.
A few other minor details: Seth is the only one at both meetings who isn't wearing a tie. This suggests that he doesn't really belong at the company, or even in the corporate world. Its a foreshadow of the discussion he will later have with Will, asking if he is going to be fired. The tension between Sam and Jared exists because Sam was passed over for the promotion that Jared received. This is why Sam and Jared are at proverbial loggerheads in their first meeting, and why Sam feels somewhat smug during that meeting. The implication is that the company wouldn't have been in that situation had he received the promotion he felt he deserved. This is also emphasized by the fact that Sam and Jared sit across from each other at this meeting, with each one having their own camp.
You missed the most important things. Spacey says what he says because he has tenure in the company and was planning an exist one way or another. He knew how to do what they intended to do and that it would destroy his relationships with his peers in the industry. They had just culled much of their workforce the previous day. Give him is package and end the agony. He knew the wiz kid was the future of the firm, but he had a relationship with the big boss already. The people above him including Moore's character knew about the problem long ago and didn't act. One of them was going to have to fall on their sword for the good of the company. They were waiting for a moment to offer up each other to save themselves. Our red tie boss needed a summary. He didn't need the specific details. His subordinates were going to handle the precise methods of carrying out the plan. It was an incredibly complicated situation involving complex financial products. Exposition. They were explaining it in the simplest terms possible for the sake of the audience. And audience that didn't understand ratings agencies, sub prime mortgages, leverage, liquidity etc.
Well you also missed that a good portion of their pay for the higher ups is in stock options. If you retire after this debacle for the immediate 5-8 years the stock will plummet. Many of these corporations were running at 130-150 a share in 2007-2008, but after the hit were trading in the 25-35 range. If 90% of your golden parachute losing 70% as you retire sucks. Of course waiting to sell for 10+ years and recovery may mean serious budget issues or death before recovery.
@@ernieellan5694 They risked the firm going bust and their options would be worthless. If they quit and the their options weren't vested they get nothing. Your only hope was to do the deed, get your bonus and hope the firm recovered and your options were worth something. Spacey said he wanted his options, if they were worth anything.
Excellent look at this scene. Yes, I've watched it many times also. You asked if you missed a detail and there is one worth mention, my favorite part of unspoken dialog. Jared stays quiet, when asked what he recommends. Then comes the lesson don't cheat, be smart or be first. As Tuld is telling it, Jared nods. I love that nod. Without Jared saying a word, Jared says yes with a simple nod gesture. I love that nuance. Thanks for the great job you did on this video.
Your comments on this masterful scene are spot on. But yes, there’s tons more to say about it. So many nuances. I’ve watched this film many many times back to back and in particular that board room scene. There’s SO much to say about it at many levels.
There is one part also where John gives Sarah a death stare after he find out she sacked Eric dale cause he discovered this and I knew then she was getting fired, it was like he looked and without saying anything implied she got rid of one of the most important figures in all this and that it was her head next, something I picked up on amyways
@@zoulzopan not sure but it's in the 10 mins clip on RU-vid, before he asked Carmelo to find him, if you find that video it's easy to see the part I'm on about
@@NaivePaddy He does that so well. Death stare coupled with annoyance that they haven't found Dale yet and he has to spend 10 seconds telling Carmelo to do it.
Thanks for your comment! Great observation. I posted another video and in it I talk a bit about Eric being laid off. I think that John and Jared wanted Eric to be fired/laid off, and Sarah found a convenient way to sweep it under the rug by having it happen during the mass layoffs. It just happened to be extremely inconvenient timing.
Thanks so much for your comment! I made another Margin Call video and I talk about Eric's firing in it - I hope you like it. When I was editing that video, I noticed so much of Stanley Tucci's "micro" expressions - his suspicion, anger, and disbelief at being laid off. It's an excellent scene.
I think “spilt milk under the bridge” meant that he was doubling the mixed idioms to emphasize how much they are looking forward now and aren’t going to dwell on how they got there.
