Mark Ward Is a Guest on the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast 1/4 

There's a huge difference between saying." This is what this verse is saying to me," and, " This what this verse is saying."

You and I grew up in cousin movements as well. We’re only a few years apart in age. And both redheads! And we both found value in our movements while acknowledging their flaws. But we wound up different places. I think we would agree on very few of the important-but-not-essential things but I admire your graciousness toward those with whom you differ. I appreciate your work.

First 12ish minutes- YES YES I strong agreed with you. we all should love our brothers and sisters whether what their backgrounds are. God teaches us to love our neighbor and even love our enemies. I knew about IFB. I do understand their weak etc but we all need our Lord in our life. Amen to that. Thank you , brother. I do pray for you and ministries. 🤟🙏🤍

Regarding hardline fundamentalists and the damage they cause to many of their followers, I highly recommend the novel Wisdom Hunter by Randall Arthur. It seems to be the premiere novel illustrating the destructiveness of legalism. It's an international bestseller. Many call it a “classic.” I understand that the author was even fired from his Independent Baptist mission agency because of the novel.

I've been using the KJV for 16 years, but if I was stranded on a desert island with only a modern translation I would be just fine. If I ever encountered anyone on this island I would have what's necessary to preach, teach, disciple, & baptize any converts. I think part of the challenge in all of this is the fact that American's are allowed to have high expectations in whatever we want. We can have perfection in everything from a cheeseburger to a house being built... A major player in all this is that we are now imposing our exceptions/way of life onto God's Word (and we are no more the better for it). We must use what God gave us and how HE chose to go about it all.

I’m excited for this collab. I’ve only listened to the recovering fundamentalists a couple times, but have enjoyed their content.

So glad I found this podcast, this is the first episode I have seen, I grew up in a fundamentalist church that leaned towards “David Cloud’s brand “ and left a few years ago, and am now a member of another fundamental church that is way more relaxed and we use and teach from the KJV but the pastor doesn’t beat us up over the issue, I came to love the NKJV several years before I left but was “in the closet” haha it’s been a breath of fresh air to hear questions I had but was afraid to ask be answered

Coming from a high school that had a direct line to BJU, I thought BJU was the extreme end of fundamentalism. Didn't realize it wasn't. Those schools and their crazy strict rules pushed me away from the faith for years. When I came back to the faith I was grateful for the foundation of scripture they gave me, but wish that that high school wasn't forced on me and that I choose to go there myself. Took me a long time to become not bitter about my experience there. The high school that is, I never went to BJU.

Another excellent video. The roughly 1:15 mark struck me enough to comment. I believe the point made there is precisely why every movement that the church has clearly labeled, by definition, a "cult" (JW, Mormon, etc.) has insisted, themselves, upon KJVO (literally using it to justify their own, supplemental "divinely-inspired" texts, of course). Just another reminder that a lot more than many realize is at stake.

Right away the term recovering fundamentalist reminds me of the term recovering alcoholic. The parallels are interesting because alcoholism is a secular term and referred to as as a disease. As an ex drunk and a saved person I know my drunkenness was a sin problem not a disease. I contemplate if recovering fundamentalist is possibly a perfect term for this group.

Looking forward to watching these conversations. Mark, I so appreciate your ministry, brother. Your humble manner and level/steady approach is refreshing in a climate that tends to be unnecessarily adversarial. There is certainly a time to confront false teaching but I appreciate your obvious concern for fairness and building up the body of Christ as a primary objective. Keep up the great work!

You had me right up until 9 Marks. I had went to a 9 Marks church (reformed Baptist) for a short while. I was very happy to hear biblical reformed preaching. I was even going to become a member there. On a weekday, they had a conference there headed by one of the people you just mentioned. I don’t know if I should name names. Anyways. I was so disgusted with the whole thing, and if it had not been a torrential downpour, I would have walked right out during it. It was horrible. I could not believe my ears. I was appalled. The very next day when I went to work, I told them I did not need off the long string of days to take the membership classes. I knew from that moment, that I would never become a member there due to their leanings.

Kilometers for the win 😁👍

Speaking from my context in Bible translation missions, the smart phone video clip at @1:01:20 is striking to me simply because the preacher in that clip is making a case for the KJV that is *fundamentally identical* to the case that our brothers and sisters in the global south are making for Bible translation in their vernacular languages: We desperately want to choose a Bible we can read and understand over one in a foreign language we cannot read. One from pride and the other from hunger.

Where there paragraphs in the original manuscripts?

I was nervous about this podcast for a lot of the same reasons you voiced. But I think that they are almost exactly where I'm at. You and I came from a very similar sliver of fundamentalism, so I haven't experienced the strong disillusionment that these guys expressed. But after a few episodes, I really do think I get it.

I am curious if you could help me with defining what legalism is and what passage from scripture you could give to help me better study and understand this? Also, who is Hunter Strength and what works does he have that I can listen to?

Think that per textual criticism and biblical research one can support and sustain kjv preferred but not Kjvo

There are some people claiming recent revelations from god or gods about which particular printing of the cambridge bible is the perfect revelation from god or gods.

Militant attitudes prevail in the cults that use the KJV as well as the cult of the KJV. One says I am of the KJV, another says I am of the NIV and yet another says I am if the NLT. Did a Bible translation save you? God forbid! It was Scripture that the Holy Spirit used to bring you to Christ. 🕊️

I see this issue like debating Sabbath keeping fo support any who are convicted yo fo such for them but not support imposing that on all Christian's as both sabbaterians and Kjvo seem to elevate their conviction to being ab essential of true christianity

* The Scriptures are the anthology of Canonical books recognized and received as authentic by a consensus of born-again Spirit-filled believers in the vulgar language of every nation and generation unto which they have come; they are the very word of God in a written form given by inspiration of God - true in all its parts, perfect, pure, inerrant, infallible, etc. and the final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

God bless those who learn the Hebrew and Greek that bring us good translations of your word . I have no hunger to learn the old languages it's already a challenge to read English for this old hillbilly, I know my place. 🤣

I'm surprised to hear you would be taught Latin by KJO guys. I would not expect that erudition or interest in the classics from that camp.

even without scriptures, the christian religion can easily be imparted from parents to children.

Belief in the kjv as a new revelation is sort of a new religion and all religions have 0 evidence, but everyone is free to believe in whatever.

I came to be interested in BJU sometime in the the 1970's when Jerry Falwell and Moral Majority which unfortunately is not positive and then fast forward to the 1980's when a publication criticized BJU because they are no longer KJVonly according to some fundamentalist and they can no longer recommend.Later I learned that "politics" and "personalities" are involved.Presently BJU has a school in Philippines training men and women who reaching my fellow Filipinos with the Gospel and their are not ecumenical and still conservative as in the doctrine and practice.I have a lot of friends who graduated with a masteral decree.Informative video.

I don't know Hebrew or Greek, but I do know English. The statement was made that the NKJV and the MEV are both translated from the same manuscripts as the KJV. So why do they read differently? The NKJV and the MEV both remove Joshua and Caleb from the promised land at Heb 3:16 and they both make Jesus a sinner at Titus 3:10. Through common English it's easy to see these differences. PS: please define fundamentalism as used in this video.

I trust some authorities such as science consensus and religionists also have authorities since all religions require interpretation.

To be fair to the KJO guys, it does SEEM like God would have providentially preserved the Greek text through a pure line of transmission. When we look at the physical evidence I don't think it really supports this view, but doesn't it at least seem that it would be the case? Every jot and tittle?

I also would like to add that Wescott and Hort's lives are of little to no importance. Neither their theological leanings i.e. whether they were peadobaptists, whether they believed Jesus is God. Those are important issues but we're not learning theology from them. They offered a system by which to use manuscripts to synthesize a text as close as possible to the autographs. Not a theology class. So why would I care about their views on those things?

Maybe the way KJVO people can grasp how that view looks to others is to ask them how they would feel about an NRSV only church? That is widely considered the most word for word literal translation in English. They also seem to have a habit of referring to KJ as the first English translation which it was not. A lot of its text came from the Geneva Bible, the 1st in English but the king worried about politics so authorised his own version where useful political points about the divine right of kings and the obedience of the people to those in authority over them would be expressed clearly in that interpretation. So KJV was neither first in English, nor unbiased.

But, what is so remarkable is that the major tenets of the Westcott and Hort theory have been disproven or diminished by scholars and yet still appealed to by them! It is much the same as with the key theories of Darwin. In the kind of end time day in which we live, it is perversely true, that for many, despite the evidence, they seem no more likely to return to the KJV type of text than an evolutionist whose theories have also been disproven coming back to the Genesis account of creation. (Missing in Modern Bibles: The Old Heresy Revived, p. 47) So writes Dr. Jack A. Moorman as he then proceeded to demonstrate in language that can be understood by the non-scholar exactly what those major tenets are and the holes in them. People should know that "Nothing approaching an extended direct copy or exemplar of either Aleph or B has been found! The search has been 'fruitless.'" (Missing in Modern Bibles: The Old Heresy Revived, p. 46) Yet Westcott and Hort utilized Aleph and B in their Greek New Testament; their use accounts for most of the differences between their Greek and the Greek found in TR-type manuscripts. Moorman effectually argues against the Critical Text. The Westcott and Hort theory of conflation, which they say accounts for the TR-text being longer in length, is debunked when it is understood that existing Alexandrian and "Western" texts do not have enough material to be "combined." Their claim that the conflating of the text was officially carried out in about the year 300 is flattened when it is acknowledged that we have not been able to find a historical record that scribes over time and scattered across wide geographical areas coordinated a lengthening of the TR-type manuscripts which possessed widespread uniformity. I think that there is a big difference between pioneering aviation and handling the word of God. I do not think that the comparison "flies." It is the quotes of the men themselves that revealed their hearts with which believers rightly take issue.

The root of this issue is a spirit of error. For example: 47:40 - 48:25; You could change the topic from KJV onlyism to Calvinism and say THE EXACT SAME THINGS: "... This is a conviction for me, [Calvinism] dishonors God's word. More than just about anything else I've seen out there. And I DO appreciate, I DO appreciate their commitment to the authority of the Bible, I learned that in a [Calvinist] church, and I like that they have a high view of Scripture, but some of their arguments turn around on themselves, and dishonor [and impugn God's character with determinism]." "Yeah, [Calvinism lifts up high the sovereignty of God], (as well they should), and then they try to push it up a little higher than God did. God didn't actually say that [He would sovereignly determine absolutely everything everyone ever did or will do; including but not limited to committing sin against Himself;] but we want that. We're going to push it higher. But that's actually pushing [Him] down, you're actually turning [God] into what you want [Him] to be." That's because, (like Calvinism), KJV - onlyism is rooted in a spirit of error. It puts on people a certain warped lens through which they view God Himself, and then they see THAT god everywhere they look in the Scripture. 😕

Bitter people??? Not bowing down to PERVERSION is not the same as being bitter.

"God has worked in a mundane way", and yet, like the babe in a stable, these Nicodemuses and Rich Young Rulers cannot see the King James Bible for what it is. They can see God in the Scriptorium but cannot see that His providence would gather the necessary things so that an excellent and faultless version and translation be made into English, so that we may have a standard made common for the world today.