Gavin was a monster in Overlord, but the fact he feels remorse for it and really wants to make up for it is a good start. I figured the least my Shepard could do was tell him his brother was okay.
Actually I would argue that the fact that Dr. Archer isn't some unfeeling sociopath, and that he apparently seemed to care for his brother and still did what he did, actually makes him even worse.
This dude was a monster, but they did it so well. Introducing us to him as an apparently reasonable scientist, who seemed to really care for his brother, then revealing how he actually hooked him up to a horrible torture device. It wouldn't have had the same impact if we knew how far he'd gone to start.
This is definitely one of the best twists on "i have to go" Shep ever did. The raw disgust and "fuck it i just want you gone" in her voice is very unique
+RavenRyy That's a bloody good question mate. Was thinking of that in a story I'm planning not related to Mass Effect but to an anime series. How do you treat a monster that harmed his own brother?
RavenRyy It is. It's very interesting to think about it. It's one of those philosophical, morally relative questions we all ask, mixed with a wish of redemption. How to treat a person who commited a terrible act, is now aware of it and tries to redeem himself/herself? Do you forgive him/her? Can you even do that? If yes, how? Reminds me of the newest SW movie, one specific scene...
@Youre Gonna Need a Bigger Boat nice reference to RDR2 And Van Der Plancke I feel the same way. I hated Gavins character and I still do to this very day, years ago my sister and I where playing mass effect 2 together taking turns and when we saw David. My sister hugged me and said "I would never EVER hurt you like that" because I to am autistic. We have brilliant minds and sometimes we can be naive and oblivious to reality, sadly people exploit us for that trait. And it makes me angry.
I love the sheer contempt in her voice when she ends the conversation. I share that contempt as I am autistic myself. He was a monster for what he did to David.
Same, but I also love how Gavin himself recognizes what he did was wrong and is trying to atone, it shows that even if he did monstrous things, he himself, is not a monster
@@lukedeakin7124 nah I’m all for people trying to redeem themselves but this dude literally had his autistic brother hooked up to a machine that put tons of tubes down his throat and had tweezers on his eyes keeping them open not letting him blink or sleep I don’t think anyone deserves to come back from a monstrous act like that
@@OhYouMusty I'm not defending what he did, but I feel its important to keep in mind the context behind Project Overlord. That being, he genuinely believed that his actions would help prevent a war that could have otherwise resulted in millions, if not billions of horrific deaths. That doesn't make what he did right ... but you can comprehend why he was compelled to go to the horrifying extremes that he did. Nobody needs to or should forgive him for what he did, but I think with his sincere remorse he deserves a shot at redemption. To try to put some good back into the world before his time is up.
I hate Gavin, but he seems genuinely remorseful for what he did, so honestly i hope he redeems himself. It's really rare to see a monster in anything that recognizes they were wrong and it's even more rare to see them shoot for redemption.
This was one of my favorite moments. Archer knows that no matter what he does, he will never be able to fully repent for what he did to his own brother, to the people who died because of his hubris and desperation. But he owns it. He takes it with him. And he destroyed Project: Overlord to stop the Illusive Man. Dr. Archer may have been a fool. But he was not a monster.
@@bgill6623 No, but he had the choice to either keep going or get away. He destoryed it all first before he left making it impossible for the illusive man to rebuild anything.
For the man trying to put his house in some sort of order, it seems only fitting to at least tell him his brother is safe. If Gavin is really trying to make amends, I'd let David decide when he wants to face Gavin again.
You know, Overlord... I think the reason why it hits so hard is because you only expect a mediocre, Geth based DLC. Then you realise what the hell you are getting into. What has been done.
My younger brother is autistic, the DLC ending is still brutal for me. I went with leaving David only once and subsequently decided to take him to Grissom Academy. It's a brutal shame qe can't properly present him to Legion.
I left his brother with him and when I told him that I brokered peace between the quarians and the geth, he walked off in disbelief and blew his own brains out. true story.
I noticed this too during my Legendary Edition playthrough. Older now than when I first played, I used to love Mordin and thought he was the funny energetic salarian guy... but he's done a lot of incredibly dark things. The moment that stuck out to me was his hatred for his former student for the unlawful experiments but then says "Hold on... I can use this his data from unethical experiments." The data of course is necessary to save Eve in 3, so it's not a clear cut case of right and wrong for sure. But as it stands, Mordin is by no means clean.
@@PetersaberHD "I made a mistake." Despite how calculating Mordin is, if you try to talk Mordin out of curing the genophage, this is what he says. He has one of the most emotional responses sense Mass Effect 2. I appreciate both Gavin and Mordin in different ways. Both as trying to fix their mistakes. For Mordin, it's making the cure to a genocide. For Gavin, it is simply staying the hell away from his brother. I feel like Mordin and Gavin would definitely have a lot to talk about.
Wait, WHAT?! That was Kain? No way. I know one of the Quarian admirals was voiced by Kain, but I had no idea it was this guy as well. Maybe because he doesn't sound as pissed off..
The guy was evil for what he did to his brother but when he realized TIM wanted him to do it again he told TIM to GTH and destroyed all the data. He then came here to help others which earned him some leeway but it won’t erase what he did, all he can do now is live and keep helping and maybe one day David can find it in his heart to forgive him once he’s made amends
Indeed, he grew too fanatic in his project to controll the geth. He did things that he'd never do otherwise. But he eventually relized what he had done and do his best to make it right, even if he cant completely. He did what he did, and now he is doing the best with what he got and his previous actions in life.
@MartialArtsMaster Hmm, that's true, but if you don't do the mission in time, Traynor tells you the Reapers took control of the cluster and destroyed Grissom Academy. I guess Cerberus got there before the Reapers?
I didn’t even let Gavin know David was still alive. I wanted the memory of what he did to that poor boy to live with him until the moment of his very last breath. He’d never know if what he did was permanent, if David survived his abuse, or even where his body was if he hadn’t. He’d _never_ see his brother again for as long as my Shepard still had strength enough to ward him off with a gun.
Dude has the biggest balls in the galaxy reaching to shake my hand after what he did. Should have locked him in a room with Jack for five minutes, she'd take care of it.
I did think Gavin was a dick for putting his brother through that hell, but at least he felt remorse even DURING the whole fiasco, more so when he saw David after being freed from the VI.
Well, I suppose his "conversion" is genuine. He was able to tell Illusive Man to shove off, aware of consequences, speak negatively regarding his actions, and accept heavy critic (but it sure was due to Shepard influence, I wonder, if one chooses the other option in ME2 would this meeting look differently?). But I don't really think Shepard went overboard. It's as he/she said in ME "The truth is, the respect is earned" he shouldn't be earning his own too soon, so he won't get cocky again.
My Shepard - a Paragon! - could not tell this monster that David was okay. He didn't deserve it. We're not necessarily grateful he killed himself, but we aren't mourning either.
The endings still don't clarify much of what happened. There are a few plotholes covered up and a few added (why didn't Harbinger shoot the Normandy down?) and three or four minutes of FMV cutscenes, a slideshow, and a speech (the only part of the epilogue with dialogue). We still have no clue what happened to our squadmates aside from the fact that they were on the Normandy when it crashed. I felt that the Refusal ending should allow the player to make new choices (like persuading the Catalyst)
Please Bioware! Gives us a patch that lets us "accidently" shoot him in the knees! Just to make Garrus say: A bullet to the knee, huh? I took a rocket to the face!
I at least let him know David was alive, as he at least deserved that much. It's not like Gavin could do anything to him anymore, even if he wanted to. I do know why Shepard couldn't shake her resentment of him; at the end of the day, he still tried to prioritize his research over his family. True, plenty of scientists do that, but Gavin exploited his brother in the process. It's gonna take a lot to make up for that.
And then in Andromeda some crazy ass bitch claims to have sabotaged it because she was anti-AI. Honestly, watching this, and watching clips of the Overlord DLC, makes me regret ever choosing to heal her kid, who was grievously injured permanently by her actions, and not putting her down where she stood instead of convincing her to stand down. I'll make sure to do that from now on when I replay Andromeda.
Well it should be better than the ending we got now. Would it not be worth it if we could at least see how they resolve the endings rather than just sitting here and watching the current ones?
This scene always stood out a little to me. Shepard has met genocidal maniac, monsters and the absolute worst of humanity.... ...but she treats Gavin Archer, the only one actively redemptive and mournful of it, the singularly worst. The entire convo can be summarised as "I hate you but tell me something"
If he is spared I'd say he disappears. For that matter, what happened to Talitha? There's a different Talitha listed as a crew member who died on the Normandy. Jack looked after her?
The last we heard of Taliha is in a message in ME2 provided that you were able to convince her to take the sedative. She's not a biotic though so she isn't under Jackson care.
If you don't get to Grissom Academy in time and the Reapers destroy it, Dr. Archer shoots himself because he knows he won't get to apologize to David. It's pretty awful. :(
When I first saw what he did, let me be clear I accidentally pressed the paragon button thinking that it wad the renegade option. Boys lucky god chose mercy for his ass that day🤬🤣
I'm glad at least one villian redeemed himself, now if the ME3 writers would just follow his example regarding the ending to this game..................
And even with EC it sucks. Refusal ending represents a middle finger from BioWare to the fans. "Follow our artistic vision for the game or everyone dies!"
Shepard's awesome, no question. That she shows such anger at what was done to someone who is autistic makes her even more awesome. And since I have autism I feel both their pain.
It's not like she had much of a choice, she was captured by indoctrinated scientists and had 20 minutes to decide the fate of an entire system. Either 300000 batarians or a full-scale reaper invasion that will not only kill the 300000 batarians and Shepard still stuck at the station, but also trillions more.
Absolutely. The colonists in America were up against soldiers with rifles not tanks and aircraft. It's easy for us in our cosy democracies to look down on people who live under dictatorships, but the fact is, we cannot judge these people as we have no idea what life is like for them. As for the batarians, would you lay down your life to fight against an oppressive government? If you and your entire family's existance depended on you working as a slave, would you not take it rather than die?
Overlord fucked me up so bad I let Gavin Archer live just so that he spends the rest of his life redeeming himself for what he did to his brother. Suicide would lead straight to Hell of course but that sounds too much of an easy way out to me.
To further illustrate my point regarding the batarians, here's a quote from EDI who talks to batarian refugees on the Citadel in ME3: "they are much more agreeable when the (Batarian) Hegemony is no longer watching them"
If you think that all of the batarian people Shepard killed are any more deserving of suffering than David Archer you are kidding yourself. But innocent people have to suffer if wars are to be won.
“But innocent people have to suffer if wars are to be won” Not always and Not entirely true. It all depends on the situation and who is fighting who. Some people will do whatever it takes to win a war even if it means using innocents as human shields. While the other side is focused on saving much lives as possible and protect civilians while trying to destroy your enemy. The another way of putting it is two sides are battling it out while innocents are being caught in the crossfire. If project overlord never happened David wouldn’t never have suffer.
I agree, she was doing what was necessary to protect the galaxy. But so was Gavin Archer- he was doing what he could to prevent war with the geth and the inevitable cost in human life it would cause. She doesn't have the moral highground- they both did terrible things to help others.
The geth aren’t a threat to organics the ones who allied with Saren were heretics, the minority of the geth who thought reapers were gods. In mass effect 2, Anderson said that the geth aren’t the threat they used to be like they were in Mass effect. What happened to David was unethical , and Cerberus does a lot of evil things, but it’s own employs torturing their own flesh and blood is sickening even by their standards.
“Both did terrible things to helps others” is not entirely true. Gavin and project overload never helped a single soul it actually hurt and killed people. The alpha relay was different and if you had to choose (thankfully You didn’t) neither choice would have been right
“Inevitable cost of human life” the geth didn’t fought the humans in mass effect 3. They fought the Quarians and that was in self defense just like the geth defend themselves in the morning war against their creators.
Too bad I couldn't destroy him on Mass Effect 2 I hated the fact that you couldn't do it even my male Shepard who's pargon I would have had him kill him. Very inhumane even Batman who doesn't believe in killing I'm sure he would've beat him to a pulp of almost killing him.
Were they turning a blind eye or were they simply unable to fight back? In real history the Hungarian uprising of 1956 was crushed by the Soviet Union. The people were against the policies of their soviet influenced government, but the Soviet Union was too strong for them. Were the deaths of those people a result of karma? The same is true of the batarians, the lower castes are clearly too weak to stand up to the upper castes, even though the majority of the upper castes' slaves are batarians.
+Majka Nagyová If you left David there, the experiment would continue, but in the end, David wouldn't respond, he wouldn't talk. The euthanised him. If you didn't even pass the DLC and you had it, they bomb the planet with nukes to neutralize the VI
+Seth Not the planet actually. just the facilities. the nukes have always been around just in case something went terribly wrong & bombing every artificial construct onsite to hell is the only way to be safe.
...then how do you know that all of those 300,000 batarians were bad? Remember, 215,000 of those batarians were oppressed slaves, victims of the hegemony (see Aratoht's description). It's easy to view them all as "evil racists" as it was easy for governments during the second world war to dehumanise their enemies so that soldiers were more willing to fight and kill them. But the picture is far more morally ambiguous and complex than you think.
Actually most batarians aren't slavers. Only the upper castes control slaves, the majority lower castes are oppressed by the more powerful upper castes (many of the lower caste batarians are slaves themselves), so condoning genocide of their race is wrong. I still accept that Shepard did the right thing though, the ends justified the means (to delay the reapers), but so was Gavin Archer doing the right thing (research to save lives at the cost of experimenting on his brother).
And what lives did he saved when he physically and mentally tortured his own family? All that really happened was hundreds of people died when David lost control after Gavin shoved wires through his own brothers mouth and peeled his eyelids back as David’s mind was being Tortured.
you really are a messed up human being if you think that what Gavin was right. Shepard on the other hand was left with two choices. Either let the reapers through and the 300,000 colonist would have died anyway or destroy the alpha relay and delay the reapers another 6 months. Project overload was entirely different.Also no one is saying that those batariens deserve to die and the paragon Shepard tried to warn the colonists and ask them to evacuate the colony.
What's wrong is they make no fucking sense. The endings take everything known about the Mass Effect universe and throws it out the damn window, and as a writer myself, this is just unacceptible work. The end of a story must work within the confines of the universe the story takes place in.
We hated the three endings because they came across as 100% contrived, they didn't make much sense, and, well, there were three of them. So what does BioWare do? They add a fourth option where EVERYONE DIES, like BioWare was telling their fans "Oh, you don't want something that leaves a bunch of unanswered questions? Well now we have an ending where you don't have to concern yourself with the fate of any of the species or your allies, because guess what? THEY'RE ALL DEAD."
Shepard comes across as very selfrighteous here. She doesn't have the moral highground after she murdered 300,000 batarians to delay the reapers. How is what Gavin Archer did worse than that?
Apples and Oranges. Shepard does not have his/her own personality because he/she is controlled by the player. The paragon Shepard shows remorse for butchering 300,000 people. While Gavin archer showed no remorse for torturing his own flesh and blood along with causing deaths of hundreds of people in those three Cerberus facilities. However he does show remorse depending which ending you choose for project overlord
When people with human decency do bad things only when there is no choice. They at least have the nobility and decency to fell bad for what they have done. Gavin did however had a choice which could have avoided the torture and the slaughter.
What's wrong with the goddamn endings? They are just fine, but they just need an epilogue and Bioware are making one freely. That's more than people deserve after all the whining and complaining and death threats from the last two months. Next thing I know, now that the fans got a victory, they will ask a new ending for Dragon age 2? Or maybe an entirely new version of the whole game? they'll petition for a possible romance with James Vega? For the indoctrination theory to be taken into account?
I like his views but didn't agree on his method. Torturing your brother to control a hostile AI is wrong but, what choice do he had? What about Shepard? Shepard done atrocities as well. Remember Bahak System, Viper Nebula? They both did what they think was right because there is no choice left. Not that I support Gavin but Shepard respond is overreacting. If I were Shepard, I will forgive him, hell he stand against Illusive Man because of it
Lasroha Samuel Pjt Gavin did what he did because he wanted to a quicker way to control AI, he wasn't forced to hook his brother up to it that was his choice, however Shepard really didn't have a choice, it was either let one system die or let the reapers kill everyone. under the circumstances Shepard made the right choice whereas Gavin made a choice to stroke his own hubris.
And out of interest, since you seem to have convinced yourself that "95% of batarians are evil racist bastards" who deserve death, what if then David Archer was a bad person and a racist? Would you then claim that he deserved to be experimented on? Where do you draw the line on who deserves suffering and who doesn't?
