Baxter and Jonathan tackle the age old issues of getting your tube amps at a playable sound level. Do you have a master volume on your amp or do you have a built in or after market attenuator?
In case you want to know the difference between a master volume and an attenuator: Most tube amplifiers have a couple of gain stages before they output to the speakers. Many will also have a buffer loop and/or a reverb between the two gain stages. The first stage is called the premaplifier, and it has smaller gain tubes like 12ax7s. For example, mine has a preamp stage, with a volume control styled "volume," and a second stage which has 2 power tubes at 45 watts and 4 power tubes at 90 watts. It has a volume knob styled "volume." That stage has a volume knob too. It is styled "master" for master volume. So you can crank the preamp stage up very high, and listen to it distort, while keeping the main gain stage at a low volume. This is the example of "a master volume" Baxter says is the same as an attenuator in the video. Essentially, you would be listening to the preamplifier cranked, but have that signal passed through the far-less amplified gain stage without the gain stage having any chance to break up and thus distort the distorted signal it got from the preamp. You'd be listening to only the first stage of your two-stage amplifier. Plus, even with the master turned down you would be playing pretty loud, just with the first stage of your amplifier. But if I want to hear the true tube magic, I need to play BOTH stages and hear the 6L6s or EL34s in the gain stage breaking up. That would be LOUD and possibly create a situation where the police were called and/or you went deaf. An attenuator is intended for the second situation, to allow you to crank up your amplifier to where it distorts through both stages. An attenuator gets hooked up between the main output and the speaker(s), and (theoretically) allows you to hear your cranked amp at a lower volume. An attenuator is a volume control that controls the main output. Some do it really well, others not so much. Depending on how they attenuate the signal, the fact that the speaker is not being driven means the amp has no load to push and that will alter the tone unless the circuit designer bakes into the design a resistance curve that mimics a speaker, which can be tricky and expensive. In my opinion, a buffer circuit would almost certainly do this best and without a buffer your attenuator may suck the life out of your tube amp signal. For these reasons, Baxter's analysis is somewhat unfortunate. There are differences between an attenuator and a master volume, the main being that an attenuator will allow the cranked sound at a lower volume. So even with my "master volume" I would be a good customer for an attenuator if I wanted to hear my amp distort, since my amp will play at a minimum 45 watts at output.
"There are differences between an attenuator and a master volume, the main being that an attenuator will allow the cranked sound at a lower volume. " This 100%.
Attenuator every time. Even with a master volume amp. The myth that attenuators such tone is from old school soaks, altars, hotplates and re-ampers like the unleash and ultimate. Those are resistive loads and DO sound bad. A good reactive attenuator like the Ironman and the Marshall Powerbrake sound exactly like the unattended amp at modest settings. When you turn down the attenuator to VERY quiet levels you lose the speaker breakup and your ear hears a different EQ curve, but a cracked power stage even at very low volumes still sounds AMAZING. And a cranked amp cleans up with light touch or turning down the guitar volume much much better than most pedals. I've used an attenuator with a cranked amp since 1985 and always will.
The Fryette Power Stations are killer. They take the amp output and bring it down to line level. Then they use 6L6 tubes to amplify to the level you want. It allows me to crank my amps into a 4x12, get all that awesome power tube distortion and not have the cops called on me.
I have the Tone King Imperial MKII and the attenuator sounds pretty amazing. Without it attenuated, it is loud loud at 4-5 with boost/overdrive. Great video fellas!!
The tone king attenuators are the best out there and they aren't even the most expensive! All these players talking about losing tone are making me want to yell just a bit.
Great subject. I have the Rivera rock crusher. It does color your sound and the bright switch does help. It was great for running my 100w tube amps in my apartment. Now that I own a house in the country it collects dust.
Thanks for another great video. I use a Fryette power station ps2 in between the amp and speaker on my Egnater rebel 30 1 x 12 combo. That way I don’t have the rest of the band complaining about the volume. It also means I can use the amp at home as well.
Attenuators are really helpful, especially on amps like the SLO and others that open up at higher levels despite having master volumes. Reactive loads like my Torpedo Reload are awesome.
Good topic! Really dug this one. Never tried an attenuator. I have leaned toward the Mike Campbell vibe of a few low wattage amps. Just mic em up. While I so love the Hendrix or Frusciante vibe and the best sounding amp I've ever played was the Marshall Hendrix signature handwired 100 watt full stack at guitar Center Hollywood. But the odds of me ever playing a big enough gig, being able to play it at any volume in my home or wanting to ever move it are little to nil. Love the low wattage amps for my reality! Good episode. Thanks dudes.
I've seen Mike Campbell play some 25 times, starting in the 1980s, and I don't even live in California. With his small amp combination, he gets the best live tone of any guitarist I've ever seen. The caveat is, you must have a very good PA to pull it off (unless the club is so small, the small amps are enough)
So, i need to buy more amps to thoroughly research this. gotcha! TBH, I love pushing air and all the nuance that comes with playing loud. each has a place and situation that work. it is a hands on experience thing in order to wrap your head around the diff's and work it to match the tone/sound in my head (my brain, such as it is). nice vid. more stuff that is important but not often spoken about.
I go with master. It helps me create the best possible power. The volume creates the most tone from what I understand. That limp bizkit video is epic. I’m a big Borland fan.
Like a few others here, I have the Tone King Imperial MKII with their Ironman II Attenuator built in. The Ironman is impressive and broadly "loved", BUT the Freyette Power Station is the most transparent attenuator I've heard. It's amazing!
Back in the mid 70s before the advent of master volume, my buddy who was an EE student built an attenuator out of an old toaster, using the toaster's heating element mounted to a piece of 2X4, housed in a Radio Shack project box. It worked great but was a fire hazard and the 2X4 mount often smoked. I still have it!
I own a Hiwatt DR103 (the loudest and cleanest tube amp known to man) and found a way to make it distort/breakup and keep the amp low as 8 o'clock. I adjusted the pickup heights on my axe and hit the strings with a metal thumb-pick. Mix that in with jumping the channels and cranking every other knob to the max, I get the meanest tones without an attenuator and it barely cost anything. If anything, only just a bit of brain power.
Basically you're correct in where in the "chain" the device is. I personally think an attenuator (or power soaks to us older folks :) are a wonderful thing. Allowing the power tubes to saturate is a wonderfully fat, full tone. That said, yes a speaker will add color and distortion of it'd own. Also an attenuator presents a basically flat amount of resistance to your amp's output. All speakers are reactive to differing frequencies (i.E. 8 ohms is only an average. The speaker impedance and sensitivity to different freqs can vary greatly. Down to 1 or 2 ohms up to thousands of ohms.). This effects how and at what frequencies the output tubes will saturate (not to mention some varying saturation of the output transformer). Lots of variables to play with. Cool!!! Cheers
As a bassist, to me it depends on the bass I'm playing. My G&L L-2000 has a preamp but it sounds better without attenuation on my amps. My active Jazz bass sounds better with attenuation. I generally just use the master volume and have done without attenuation for 50+ years. Thanks guys, good subject. Cheers
Hahahahaha, dudes, y'all are some chuckleheads (meaning always joking around and being ridiculous lol), but I love you guys....always down to earth and good humored. 🤘🤙. Thx fellas. Next time I'm in NC, I gotta come buy the shop!
Once upon a time, I had a Fender Bassman 100 that I frequently used for guitar. That amp had the best sound I've ever heard. When you cranked it (8-10 master volume) the sound was magical (as Baxter said). I have a very cool photo of me playing it at a gig in about 1979 in Memphis, TN. I sold it in 1981 for my medical school tuition. I guess that deal worked out ok, but I miss that amp, LOL.
I like the Weber Mass Attenuator a lot, and that uses a speaker motor. Use that with my 65 Amps Marquee. I am using it to get into the sweet spot zone.
my jtm45 has that master volume mod and thank god it does. also the jcm800 has a master volume but it only really comes to life when its up above 12 noon
I think what works best depends on the kind of amp you're using. For example, my Mesa Boogies Mark IV and 5150 get most of their tone form the preamp section so an attenuator is less useful than my Carvin Legacy that benefits more from the power tube load. So, I use an attenuator on the Legacy but not the other two.
I've had a few master volume amps and used a couple different attenuators and they all sound a bit different. I haven't really loved any of them though. I like the idea of a bypassable master volume like the Matchless C-30 has. I haven't actually got my hands on one but the idea that you can use the attenuator for practice or small gigs and then take it out of the circuit when circumstances allow sounds ideal to me.
it's a funny thing...back when I was in high school in the early 70s I had a friend (my age) that was playing bass in a high school band (for money) and he had a PBass and a Bassman amp (which later burnt up in a fire). They were good and he was doing exactly what I wanted to do, except I could never stay out that late on school nights, travel, etc. I used to hear of their exploits in library the next morning...No one back then that I knew would have ever thought of plugging a Strat or a Les Paul into a Fender Bassman...amazing how they're so coveted now for guitar maybe moreso than bass. Happy playing.
"Yeah but this one goes up to 11" Ill pass on the Attenuator, last thing my dumbass needs is more knobs to worry about. Thank you for the Tele Leo ! Otherwise I would be playing acoustic only.
Fryette Power Station. I've got a herd of non-master volume amps from the 50s and 60s. This thing makes any of them usable at home, small venue and makes the smallest amp usable at large venues. Best piece of gear I've bought in the last 20 years. See Tim Pierce or Pete Thorn reviews on RU-vid.
The Fryette is a wonderful invention. I started playing electric guitar in the 80s and dreamed of the same design, back then. Then Fryette actually did it, finally, which was far beyond my capabilities
I would have said master volume but then I got a Tone King Imperial and the Iron Man attenuator on that is better than anything that I have ever owned. It’s my favorite amp without question.
Tone King= Mark Bartel now= Bartel Amps. I have his Sugarland amp, master volume is amazing. I also use the Boss TAE for attenuation on other amps, it also allows a Champ to turn into very loud amp. Basically reamps it.
This topic comes up every once in a while on That Pedal Show. Dan always brings up the Fletcher Munson Curve. Long engineer story short, higher volume = higher fidelity.
I use the Waza Tube Amp Expander. It's awesome to not have to even consider the wattage of the amp. 100 watts? No problem using it as a practice amp. I've tried amps with and without the TAE, and the sound is pretty close.
It's impossible to lower the volume without compromising the tone - or rather the impression it has on you. Nothing beats a speaker moving air. But those amps are really loud, and when you have no choice, in my experience I tend to prefer attenuation, because it compromises the tone one step further than master volume. In my humble home studio I have switched to Captor X and a pair of JBL monitors. It's never going to be the same as a real cabinet, but it does a pretty good job at rendering good tones similar to what you would hear on a record. I get relatively linear tones from low, bedroom to more manly volumes.
I got a 18 watt Dr. Z Carmen Ghia and it can melt your face. I invested in a 8 ohm hotplate and get the same tone at reasonable volume. I've always avoided amps with a master volume.
I great attenuator that no one talks about is the Acorn Amps Elevenuator. It’s affordable, and sounds great! It’s also a great company with a solid online presence. Not affiliated, just a fanboy
I dig my non-master volume 1970 Fender Twin Reverb but I do appreciate the master volume on my Blues Jr IV because I can get some decent tone at low volume when the family is asleeping. Not that they’d hear it anyway because my office/music room is an anomalous magic cave from which sound apparently cannot escape. It’s super weird but it works!
I use a Marshall PB-100. It is a power soak. It works passively. It is connected between the power amp and the speaker. it converts power to heat. Thus, only allowing as much power to the speaker as you wish. Think of it like a transmission between the powertrain and the wheels. When you have a high wattage amplifier turned up loud with the PB 100 connected, it will even initiate a fan in order to use up the unwanted electricity. by doing this, it is self cooling.
I have two pretty good examples of both. My 2 Rock Bloomfield Dr. has an excellent master volume. That amp can sound great at any level. Of course it does sound better when it’s louder. I also have a town king imperial with the Iron Man attenuator. That can get much quieter than the two rock which one sounds better or is more usable? I am not sure. If I am just playing in my bedroom, I would probably want the attenuator. But I tend to use my universal audio pedals for Amp sims at home anyway
I had my ‘69 Super Reverb modded to have a post phase inverter master volume, reverb and trem on both channels, and the first channel to have the Bassman tone stack and it’s Awesome. But, it’s heavy. Highly recommended
My early 1973 Marshall 50 watt 1987 vintage head has no MV, so it’s an attenuator or the police. I bought a Marshall Powerbrake and an old Scholz R&D Power Soak for it. Still need to give them a try.
SPL reducer attenuator is the best buy I ever did. I cranked my 1969 Bassman and was amazed by the sound, and also use it for my Marshall Jcm DSL100 and have a much tighter overdrive sound than putting it at volume 2 which is very thin&fizzy. No impact on the tone whatsoever. It's expensive but you get what you pay for
I would choose.....Both. Plus a post phase inverter Master. Luckily, I got them all. Can never have too many volume knobs. Plus at least an internal four gain-stage amp. It's all about the versatility. Better to have it and not need it. Even betterer because it can play at a whisper.
This has been an ongoing internal debate ive been having. I have a 57 tweed twin reissue and to get it dirty at a reasonable volume, i have to use an attenuator but it drains some of the bottom end and top end frequencies. Its still a great sound though. however my Friedman with a master volume i feel like i can get it to sound better at lower volumes. I guess its more about how the amp is voiced? The tweed twin on 6 with no attenuator, its glorious.
Bottom line both of these take the air the speakers are moving at high volume out of the equation. So you’re sacrificing tone. I started with the Tom Schotz Power Soak back in the day to use for recording sessions. It was handy, but didn’t get used much unless live tracking. My HiWatt Custom 20 Combo has a Master volume and it’s great. Some day I’ll hear what those Fane speakers can really do! 😊
Less air moving doesn't cause loss of tone. Just volume. Power soaks don't have a reactive load. My tone king iron man does not cause a bit of tonal or harmonic loss at any volume.
I have a master volume in the effects loop if my marshall sv20 and I think it sounds good. I do wonder if I'm getting the most out of the power tubes as they are not on fire?
I can’t speak to all attenuators because from my understanding there are huge difference amongst them. I have a two notes captor X and I feel like it does an amazing job of keeping the integrity of the sounds when attenuated. However I use it most for playing into my headphones to practice. If I’m going to play through the speakers I feel like master volume amps are the move because it allows you to mess with the gain staging at lower volumes. You can keep it as clean as you want by keeping master volume low and turning gain up as a method of volume control, or switch it and turn master up high and keep gain low to have it breakup sooner at lower volumes. Gain staging and playing with it is just good fun.
I use an attenuator on my Pexi ,lol. Technically the thing that makes the biggest difference is the fact is that paper cone the speaker has simply barely moves. It definitely weakens the lows. But as trade offs go I find it the best choice. Without it I am getting 110dB which is a bit of an ouch. With it I can run at 95dB and still get a good sound that keeps up with the drummer.
Funny I had been just thinking about this for my pro jr 4 SE. The SE has different speaker and better bottom end. Only 1 volume and tone knobs. 3 seems to be the sweet spot for mean an clean.
I think an attenuator sounds the best with a marshall style head and not trying to take it to bedroom levels but just taking it down to tolerable levels. Then the amp is still breathing. Masters are just plain more practical and convenient on combos over attenuators mostly because its a pain to hook a combo up to an external attenuator. there are some great attenuators out there like the Freyette Power station and the aracom attenuator but hooking something up between a combo chassis and the speaker is usually a pain. but I think everything sounds "better" with a master open wide. You use a master because you "have to" like at home or somewhere where you just cant get that loud but amps always sound better when they don't have a governor on them.
The older I get, the quieter I like the guitar at home, but live - hell, its never been loud enough for me. As long as I could feel the kickdrum and the snare, make eye contact with the singer occasionally and not fall over drunk, then there was headroom to turn it up just a little bit more. Then IEMs became the thing and stages became places where Flopsy bunny and Sidney squirrel could listen to the wind in the trees and the birdsong, like some old school Disney movie... now what was I saying??? Speak up young whippersnappers - something about volume? Oh yes... well it was very loud back in them there frontier days. Hell yes, and it felt amazing even if it destroys all your high registers in your hearing and leaves a subtle but constant high pitched tone in your ears. Frankly we were idiots and had no idea what we were doing gut hot damn, it was more fun than the Annual Sorority mudwrestling and wet t-shirt contests. Ah... well time for my medication. Have to be up early to shout at some clouds ya know.
Where does a volume pedal, such as the JHS Pedals Little Black Amp Box, used in the effects loop come into the conversation? Is that similar to a master volume as it sits between the pre-amp and power tubes? I’ve been thinking of trying the pedal to be able to crank up my Hot Rod Deluxe at home.
don't throw your money on ''volume pedals which are used as attenuators if used in the fx loop''. They are NOT attenuators, they DON'T do the thing. Save your money for a proper attenuator that goes between the amp and the cab.
I use an amp modeler through my combo amp. That way I can get any sound I want without having to destroy my ears. I can dial up very convincing tube amp tones with it.
I have a Valvetrain, that has a “governor” knob. But its a 6l6 theres no power tube break up, but most the tone is preamp I have found, and its fine I crank the amp and crank the governor. It sounds good. But, I have a Swart AST I play cranked I honestly just crank it volume and tone and thats perfect and the 6v6 and theres even tube rectifier that does break up. Its really good cranked. But it LOUD 16-22w ish area. So I am going to get an attenuator. Ive had an Iron man and the small one is great but I think I want to cut the internal speaker and go out to interface. So the Two Notes may be the way to go for speaker sim. So its my amp cranked but through my monitors as any level. But nothing beats moving some air on a small cranked tweed circuit style amp. Especially with a hollow or semi hollow and get that feedback. Nothing compares to the real deal, which is why my ears ring non stop now 😂😂
of my dozen amps- none have a master volume. I just got a two tone ironman reactive attenuater - and it is great for taking vol down a notch without affecting tone.
I think having a 5 watts or less amp is more fun than trying to compromise with a bigger amp in your bedroom or basement. You need 20 watts at least to be heard at a loud band practice, but that’s way too loud for home! I think 1 watt through a decent 10” speaker is perfect for my basement.
Would it be good for pop-punk/Grunge with a live drummer? I want a tube amp I can play at home reasonably and I don’t want to get a Boss Katana MKII 100 if there’s a better tube amp for my needs. Just need something for my three piece punk/grunge jam band that can handle distortion and hang with the drummer. Nothing super metal but definitely some overdrive for sure
I have a Laney GH50L it’s loud as hell even when the master volume is at 2. Then I tried using the effects loop as a master volume man that was fizzy as hell. I recently ponied up and got me a Tone King Ironman II it just changed everything I turned my master up to 5 1/2 it’s quiet and I’m not disturbing my family with my awful playing and it doesn’t suck the tone. If your going to buy a high powered amp plan on spending the extra money and get a Tone King yeah there expensive but you get what you pay for.
Having both I’ll take the attenuator every time. Running a tube amp at full blast with an attenuator hooked up is different than using a Master Volume to get to the same decibel levels.
So I was near Denver and because I love yalls show I went to wild wood guitars and they had a sign saying show room is closed at this time and a guy pokes his head out with a mask on in mid February of 2023 to say the least disappointed but also baffled that they are still acting like that 🤦🏻♂️🤯
It's more than volume. It's feel. Also headroom. I've been trying to bring down the volume via attenuator, power scaling, smaller amps etc and always seems lacking.
My real question: Is the Bugera PS1 enough for a 100W Marshall beast? Or do I have to go with a 1,000$+ option to safeguard the amp and make sure that the tubes won't explode?
I don´t know what you mean by ´the Marshall beast´, but a load can normally attenuate about 60% of what it says on the tin, for some reason (100w = 60 w).
@@the92project Good to know, thank you. I just got a Rivera Rock Crusher. We'll see how it stacks up. It was between that and the captor x but I heard that the Rock Crusher's attenuation was better than the X. We'll see.
Get a THD Univalve. Run it with a low power octal triode in the power tube socket (6C5 or a 6J5GT) and then pick the nine pin twin triodes to suit your gain needs. With lower power twin triodes (12AU7) you can get something like 0.5 to 1.5 W of output power. You can turn it all the way up without a master volume or attenuator. Also, no one wants 12AU7, 6C5 or 6J5GT tubes so you can often find NOS pieces for not a lot of money.
Having master cranked typically sounds the best so I vote attenuators. It’s not a perfect science either but it seems to hold your tone better. Smaller amps need better consideration.
I like my Tone King Ironman II attenuator - but if you attenuate too much, you lose something. Just a little bit goes a long way. Low powered amp + attenuator is not a bad way to go!
