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@Nikki & Steven. The form of hand-to-hand fighting / combat being praticed in the POW camp is based on techniques developed by a former British Policeman (William Ewart Fairbairn) whom developed this style based on his experiencing policing the violent criminal Chinese gangs of Shanghai China. He latest tough this to British and Allied troops in WW2 after joining the British Army, in additions to writing two books layout these techniques entitle DEFENDU and ALL IN.
The guy who did the math in his head was Richard Macon, he was a mathematician. When he returned from the war he got a Master's degree and taught at the Miles College in Alabama. There's a bust in his honor there.
Also a total disservice to everyone else in the room making them look like idiots who don't realize what's going on. Every pilot in there would know the range of their planes with different loadouts and drop tank configurations. Total backfire moment in trying to make him look smart.
For those that dont know, the germans would try to infiltrate spies into the POW camps. Gale Cleven was responsible for vetting incoming POWs in Stalag Luft 3 to ensure they werent german infiltrators or spies. Thats why they show him having a bit of mysterious reaction to the three tuskagee airmen. I would imagine that, unlike other bomber crew, the first tuskagee guys would not have anyone to vouch for their identity in the camp, so they would likely have been a bit of a problem for Cleven to figure out.
It's not just the lack of sleep and stress that was messing with Crosby, but the pills he was taking to stay awake. Benzedrine, also known as methamphetemine.
If you have not seen either of the 2 movies about The Tuskegee Airmen you will not know that under their air cover they didn't lose a bomber to fighter attacks, the 2 movies are The Tuskegee Airmen (the better of the 2 movies, more historically correct) & Red Tails (less accurate but good action movie)
@@TheFalconerNZ The 332nd flew 179 Escort missions. On seven of these they lost Bombers, losing a total of 27. The average Bomber losses among P-51 Groups were 46.
So much respect for the Tuskegee Airmen/Red Tails. Fighting in that war was horrible enough without being subject to racism. I wonder if they played down that aspect for the episode or if there was more respect for these men back then than expected. You guys gotta watch the movie "Red Tails" with David Oyelowo and of course HBO's "Tuskegee Airmen" with Lawrence Fishburn, and Cubba Gooding Jr. . Good stuff the latter more so than the former, but both are good.
the Red Tails Fighter depicted in the show is a P51 Mustang B, C, or D variant, which is an American Fighter with an English Rolls Royce V12 Piston Engine known as the 'Merlin' V12. these motors were in the Spitfire, Hurricane, Mosquito Fighters, and the Lancaster Bombers and went through many horsepower upgrades throughout the ww2. remember Mavrick flies a P51 Mustang at the end Top Gun 2, which Tom Cruise owns and flies irl.
Sandra was in the Special Operations Executive, they were the British lead agency in sending agents into occupied Europe to conduct clandestine operations against the Germans. They were with the underground forces in the country’s they went into!
Two of the Redtails pilots that got capture Lt. Alexander Jefferson and Lt. Richard D. Macon (that end up in the barracks with Buck) were famous. Jefferson after the war wrote a book, Red Tail Captured, Red Tail Free: Memoirs of a Tuskegee Airman and POW, is a personal memoir of those who served America in World War II and after. Macon and Jefferson helped found Tuskegee Airmen Inc. and each served as president of the Detroit chapter. And if you want to know more about the Red Tais (Tuskegee Airmen) there are 2 movies at least that tell the story about it, one is "Tuskegee Airmen" with Laurence Fishburne and Cuba Gooding Jr, and the other is "Red Tails" also with Cuba Gooding Jr. Keep up the good work.
"Those were a lot of numbers." Welcome to being a pilot. Fuel numbers, radio frequencies, stall speeds, max gear speed, max flaps speed, max engine temps, max pressures, weight and balance, landing speeds, takeoff rejection speeds, glide speeds, aircraft range.....all numbers.
@@NikkiStevenReactIt's all part of being a pilot. And not even a Combat pilot. Adding in the target identification and learning the capabilities and flight envelope of the enemy planes as well are all part of making an effective and survivable combat pilot.
Jefferson was a chemistry graduate. Macon was a mathematician/ mathematics graduate which is why you had that scene to do with the range or their planes, the weight etc
None of the planes seen in the show are jets. That said, there were a handful of different jet-engine aircraft on both sides which saw some form of limited service during the later years of the war. That technology was just beginning to be employed at that time.
Westgate, whose real name was Wingate, Crosby never did know what she did. Of course it was British Intelligence. The scene of her in France helping the Resistance is just speculation on Crosby's part. It was never known if she did or didn't make trips like that. Several years ago after I read Crosby book I watched a video lecture from a history professor who specialized on WW2 and he was going over Crosbys book. He said he did his best to find out more about Wingate but all he could find was a woman of the same name who served in the British Army as an officer at the same time. She had passes away by then but had gotten married and had 3 children. All her military records were still sealed and listed as classified. He amd all of us pretty much figured out he had found Wingate aka Westgate for the TV series but still nothing about what she did is avaliable.
~6:10: you’re not wrong per se, fighter planes often had a top speed significantly greater than the B-17s, albeit primarily based on failures on the part of the latter. Additionally, bombers could carry much greater weight of bombs per plane in comparison to fighters. But as we’ve been seeing in more modern times, safety and speed often outweigh a greater bomb load.
The story of the P-51 mustang is amazing in itself. The first drawing of it happened in a bar on a napkin. The time from that initial sketch on a bar napkin to the first flight of the prototype was 102 days…They had some problems with the American Allison V-12 engine at first but the magic happened when North American (the planes company) choose to use the British Rolls Royce Merlin V-12 engine and it all came together. Early mustangs had a differently designed cockpit where the pilot didn’t have very good rear visibility. What we see in the show is the P-51 D version with the bubble canopy. I love WW2 aircraft because it is the pinnacle of piston engine aircraft. They pushed the engineering to the limits. A propellor plane that had a max speed of 440 mph and could climb up to 41,900 feet. The only way they could develop aircraft to perform better was to start using jet propulsion. The mustang still looks modern to me.
The Allison was a fine engine tho, as the P-38 proved, feeding it with turbos. Infact I believe it even was slightly better then the Merlin since iirc it was lighter. The Merlin came with an 2 stage supercharger tho. What i don't understand is how it was easier for them to tool up for a completely different engine and use that instead of building a supercharger for the Allison.
@@hernerweisenberg7052 The Turbo Supercharger for the Allison was so large and complicated that the only airplane that could carry the entire apparatus was the P-38, carried in the Tail Boom for each engine. The P-38's biggest problem in the ETO was that the Turbo Supercharger would freeze up at high altitudes and explode, crippling the airplane. One reason why, although it had success in Europe, the Lightning was such a potent Fighter in The Pacific where it was warmer overall, the 5th AF flew at lower altitudes where the warmer air and humidity made the Turbo Supercharger purr. 🙂
@@cleekmaker00Yeah I know about the turbo, what i mean is how its easier to produce a completely different engine then to slap that supercharger from the merlin on the allison.
The fuel tanks were notorious not dropping when they should even up until the Korean war and more. There is a famous story of in the Korean war an American fighter pilot only managed to drop of of his tanks and still had to dogfight MIG's
One point that most people miss is that, even in the early pet of the 20th century Southern France did have a significant minority of Arab, Berber and Africans from their African colonies. For all the faults of the Vichy collaborationist regime, the rights of French, non Jewish, citizens were preserved and many worked in German- run factories or on food producing farms, as well in civil administration so removing them would hinder the occupation. Removing the Jews from these areas had already led to major problems so removing more would exacerbate that.
All aircraft that flew during this era were normally-aspirated, piston engine airplanes. The jet engine technology had not yet been invented, much less used in theater. The original fighter/bombers were Curtis P-40 Warhawks (the green planes with sharks teeth on the nose) and they were replaced by the more sleek, faster and more capable P-51 Mustangs, which had six (6) 50-caliber machine guns mounted in the wings! Among other advantages, these guns made them a force to be reckoned with.
Not entirely true. The jet engine was invented in the 1920’s wildly enough but you are correct it wasn’t implemented into aircraft until very late in the war. Military leadership has always been conservative and they didn’t want to use and experimental engine against something they know works. Germany was desperate and fielded the jet fighters ME-262 first. The US was testing their jet out in the desert during the war and while on the ground that had a fake propellor put on the nose so it wouldn’t draw too much attention.
The phone call crosby made is accurate. 3 days of phone calls and being passed from one to another. One time he even went where wingate said her office was and found nothing there.
The POWs are not outmanned. It's just like any prison (I work in one). Far more inmates compared to the staff. But the staff have training, weapons and equipment to try an control things. Military prisoners have training on their side, and they can use that training, on top of their numbers, to get a fighting edge. Yes, if they were to riot, people are going to die. But the guards would eventually be overwhelmed.
Jefferson, Macon and Daniels all did end up in Stalag Luft 3. Two of them were shot down attacking radar stations in Toloun. The remaining one attacking radar stations at Marseille. While no definitive proof they mingled with guys of the 100th it was very possible they did.Jefferson even wrote his own book on his experiences
I know it's probably a long shot, but seen as you've loved all the period piece series you've watched for example this current one and ones like black sails, last kingdom and so forth, I would highly recommend your guys react to the sharpe series set during the Napoleonic wars featuring Sean Bean, such a great series I reckon you two would love it.
You guys should check out the Colditz Castle escape plan (The Amazing Colditz Glider) in world war 2. The British prisoners managed to build a glider plane in the loft/ attic of the castle. They didn't get to fly it to freedom as the American soldiers managed to liberate the prisoners before their attempt. It's a crazy story but look it up because there's photo's of the plane and info about the whole attempt. There was a UK TV channel that wanted to see if the plane would have worked and built a replica and it flew first try! These guys were engineers and masters of pragmatism! After I read about this prison attempt at school I'm not surprised they could build a radio from scrap bits!😄
Macon broke his shoulder and neck bailing out of his plane. They managed to set his shoulder but they didnt get to X-ray and Set his neck till he was put into stalag Luft
I know most people aren't too familiar with aircraft types, but it triggers me so much when someone calls a P-40 a "fighter jet." And the P-51s too! They're not jets!
Unfortunately the limitations we have for Wingate is that besides Crosbys book and what he writes about her. The information we do have on her is fairly limited. Besides the rumour that her family asked her name to he changed and a newspaper article post war that she got married. What she did or didnt do during the war if there is records of it, then they are likely still classified or have been destroyed
The bombers were never "bait" the show was wrong to call it that. the switch in tactics was to hit german aircraft production and force the luftwaffe to respond so the mustangs could get their shots in (they were also not tethered to the bombers like the episode portrayed, they were free to range out and hit the fighters as they were assembling) . It was called operation argument and it broke the back of the jagdwaffe.
Sadly that's not true, it was part of a broad plan by General Carl Spaatz, the commander of the US Strategic Air command in Europe. Spaatz deliberately used the bombers as bait. By attacking the German oil supplies, they would lure the Luftwaffe up into direct combat, where US fighters waited for them. German airpower would be destroyed by attrition.
Having the bombers used as bait is not a Hollywood invention for MofA. Various articles, including those on the Operation: Argument you speak of, and documentaries also say that tactics changed to using the bombers as bait. German fighters would only go up after bombers. They ignored Allied fighters. So in order to get the German fighters off the ground the Allies had to send in bombers as bait.
The P-40 (first a/c in this episode) could only carry three bombs. Roughly a 1500 lb max load and that would reduce it's range a LOT. Plus it had no bomb sight so hitting the target was often a factor of luck. A B-17 could carry up to 8000 lbs of bombs over a 1000 miles and hit the target with much more precision.
FYI, at this time in the war, there are NO operational Jet aircraft, though Germany had already been flying a prototype that would become the Messerschmidt 262 (Schwalbe) in the 1930s. The insanity of Hitler kept it out of production till too late to stop the Allies, Thankfully.
This excerpt from Jeffersons book really stuck with me "Having been treated by the Nazis like every other Allied officer, I walked down the gang plank wearing an Army Air Corps Officer's uniform towards a white US Army sergeant on the dock, who informed us "Whites to the right, N word to the left".
Black soldiers returning home would find themselves on trains that were carrying German POWs and Getmans who were killing Americans were sested in White section. Black soldiers were required to sit in the back of the train. Racism didnt change. German nazis were still white in America!
I have! The Biden admin. trying to throw political opposition in jail, the Biden admin. working with FB, YT and others to stifle freedom of speech, the Biden admin. making up lies about the opposition! I totally agree with you... we have seen them.
The scene with crosby actually happened but in reality he almost crashed his jeep or did crash it and somehow made it to his bed zonked out. He said he only slept 24 hours rather than 3 days as Rosenthal says but yeah still missed D-Day
The Code of Conduct I am an American fighting in the forces that guard my country and our way of life, I am prepared to give my life in their defense. I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist. If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy. If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information nor take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way. Should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies. I will never forget that I am an American fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
Can't still get over the fact that they made so many errors in this series. Could have been awesome, but now just entertaining. For instance D-day briefing wasn't on 6th, it was on 4th since invasion was postponed by one day from 5th. They tried to tell as much as possible in too little time and it went to fast forwarding mess towards the end. Nothing new when Peppa Pig writer wrote like this episode.
@@NikkiStevenReact If you haven't seen them yet three very good movies you should check out are Men of Honor with Cuba Gooding Jr. and Robert Deniro about the first Naval black Naval deep sea diver. Devotion starring Johnathan Majors and Glen Powell. About the first black Naval fighter pilot Jesse Brown who fought during the Korean War. Also Rosewood with Ving Rhames, Don Cheadle, John Voight and Michael Rooker. Tells the story of survivors of a whole town that was massacred over a lie in the US. It's pretty epic.
It seems like the creators of this series threw the Tuskegee guys in at the last minute as a politically correct afterthought & the scenes with them were kind of corny like "Red Tails".
Knowing what happens in the last episode and the little we get to see of them in this episode it seemed random and useless that the Tuskegee were included icl
@@gearreadyforwar1545 how is it weird to say. In a filmmaking point of view unfortunately they added very little to the story and were just background characters forgotten about after their 30 min inclusion in episode 8. Bit of a disservice to them to do that to their story
@@OllieTheFirst well all of this is based on true story so it’s pretty cool that we did get to see them,also it makes people want to search about them and know more about them
@@OllieTheFirstI mean they were in the camp, they weren't included in the story just to be included, I haven't read the story but maybe they weren't main players in episode 9 because they weren't in real life?
I just finished watching the final episode of this, the first couple of episodes drew me in but as the series progressed I found myself far less engaged and in reality only watched the last 3 episodes out of mild interest, it remains that Band Of Brothers is the standout production of the 3.
@@guincofrag1847 The scenes of Wingate conducting espionage in France is 100% made up BS. There is zero evidence for ANYTHING she did or who she really was. They don't even get her name right or changed it purposely. Some of the comments made by the Tuskegee men was demonstrably false, for example not being promoted when their rate of promotion was about the same as other units. Not to mention that forcing them into the show at all smacks of woke pandering since the 332nd never operated out of England and was not part of the 8th Air Force at all. They missed on an enormous opportunity by treating D-Day as an after thought to jam in all the make believe garbage. I could go on and on. This episode, along with the one prior turned a series that was great into one that was just good. Very disappointing.
I don't care that the original series Star Trek set's walls were plywood sheets and reflective tape, it's not about the sets. If you're hung up on the cgi your focus is in the wrong place.
