I like the idea of parsing the spell rules for intent. Now, more or less half a century after its introduction, the game has been through and around so much, the name is just there for memes. But at the Dawn of Things, it was called "Dungeons & Dragons," and gosh darn it, that meant you were going to spend twelve hours trying to figure out why your map and the DMs map were different, because it's gosh darn it fun to discover where someone meant "the gosh other darn left," gosh darn it.
Great video aboiut a favorite topic of mine! I love megadungeons and have created some of my own. But one of the first games I played in was a megadungeon that the DM had created for the summer program I went to the summer I turned 11 (circa 1979). The megadungeons were always referred to in various materials, and seen in the cross section map near the end of the Holmes blue rulebook. The most popular AD&D megadungeon in my opinion is the original Castle Ravenloft. I still enjoy running that one from time to time. I keep telling my players that I'm going to run it as the next year's Halloween adventure and the answer is always "NO!" 😀 In the world of computer games in 1980 and beyond almost all we had were megadungeons. Wizardry, the game I played first on my old Apple II+ was the megadungeon I played the longest (and still play now thanks to emulators), but there were others. Even more wilderness-focused games like the Ultima series had effective megadungeons, as did The Bard's Tale. But I've created my own megadungeons too, though none of them are complete. Like Gary early on, I have a basic outline for what is on each level, and I fill it in as the players begin to descend to the level above the lowest I've completed so I'm always two levels ahead of them. The one I've used the most has four corner towers of a castle, each of five levels, detailed, and then five levels (out of at least eight) of the sprawling dungeons underneath it done. Someday I'll finish that one, perhaps. 🙂 But as it is now a known location in the campaign world (and a former PC thief now takes adventuring parties through the magical portal near town to the mountaintop castle, for a fee) all new parties of new characters have the option, whichever city they start in, to make their way to the Castle in the Sky. 😀 And if I had my own location to use as a gaming base, I'd run it Gygaxian style. 😀
I am a big fan of mega dungeons. I think sometimes you just have to delve into these labyrinth dungeons and explore every nook looking for treasure and fighting monsters. I think it is a lost art especially in the modern versions of the game. I am personally a fan of settings like Undermountain and vast city campaigns that take place solely in a city like Lankhmar or Waterdeep etc. Sometimes you just need to delve and not worry about elaborate plots and stories.
While TSR may not have produced Mega dungeon adventures, that did not stop us from using them back in the 80s. If I recall correctly, B2 had a couple areas such as the Caverns of Chaos that allowed for an unlimited dungeon area. Cool video!
That was a very interesting video, thanks. I cannot stand the recent trend of trying to turn ttrpg's into movies, especially older editions like 1e. I run a monthly 1e game still, and this video was very inspiring. Makes me want to not even run a pre-written megadungeon! :D
We use to have that "Ruins of Undermountain" box set...which was just full of all these maps that hooked up with each other. We would return to that horror of a dungeon and map a little bit more of it out when we were up for it. Many of us died in there. I forget how many levels it had.
Nine "official" levels, as far as I'm aware. "Ruins of Undermountain" had three levels, with level #3 also being double-sized (to "allow" for Skullport). "Ruins of Undermountain II" had a further three levels. There was also the loosly-associated "Dungeon Crawl" series of modules, three of which each added an additional level to Undermountain. BTW, have I ever mentioned that one big reason for me liking "printed"/"physical" products is the maps? :P (I *do* so like - carefully - unfolding the maps and perusing them :) )
As a follow-up thought - I'd also love some sort of official publication based on Gary Gygax's own "Castle Greyhawk" dungeons, especially when it comes down to the number and size of levels.
I love mega-dungeons. The only problem is keeping up the momentum to finish them. We've dabbled in several but didn't complete them. But this year we have plans to play Greg Gillespie's Dwarrowdeep (whenever it finally comes out) and the new Swords & Wizardry version of Necropolis, which has dungeon, urban, and wilderness aspects. And the goal is to finish both!
Also, the whole XP-for-gold ideology drove the need to explore dungeons and find stashes of ancient, buried loot. In modern games, with the XP-for-monsters approach, or even story-beat milestone leveling has removed that incentive.
Very good points in this one. It is interesting that the PUBLISHED materials from TSR (even in those early days) was far from the "mega dungeon". How many folks "back in the day" had a megadungeon in their campaign? I know our group the adventures were very much in tune with the shorter "episodes" that TSR was publishing, even when we wrote them ourselves.
First of all, to those who want to try a great megadungeon crawl, try Castle of the Mad Archmage. A fun and dangerous romp to be sure! Certainly Gary, Rob K, etc., all started with Castle Greyhawk. Those original rules even spoke of dungeon creation in The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures 'A good dungeon will have no less than a dozen levels down...' However, is it necessary? Probably not IMO. I started playing in the late 70's and as you noted many of the modules never had the scale of a megadungeon and play was not impacted. However, to utilize ALL of the detailed rules, you probably would have to delve into Zagyg's domain. Everyone should try a megadungeon at least once anyhow just for the experience. Cheers!
I've downloaded it, but haven't had a chance to run it. Which is to say, I don't have a group to play with any more. But I definitely want to give it a try one day!
excellent advice good video i agree AD&D was built for tournaments and mega dungeons. i wish TSR had made an Urban Survival Guide we would have had many questions answered on how to do intrigue and political campaigns specifically in a Gygax AD&D style of tables, design tips and play all in one place instead of scattered around the product line
@@tcschenks I understand that but having Gygax guidelines to build such type adventures as time spent on wilderness and dungeons would complement the system as a whole.
Part of the issue was that in the Gygaxian system, most of their social interaction effects were resolved with actual role-play and, at most, a reaction roll. Certainly this puts burdens on the player with crappy social skills who is running a charisma 18 character that are problematic, but it perhaps encouraged role-play a bit more than just "Role a Bluff check versus their Sense Motive check". (I'm open to either, BTW, though my Old School brain says just run a charisma check and maybe a wisdom check in return)
The megadungeon could have been a bigger thing if TSR had supported them better. Gary should have released the Greyhawk dungeon in small groups of say 1 to 4 levels starting in the 70's.
I never understood in later editions why things shifted away from this and dungeons in general. Or the need to make the monsters make sense with some sort of ecology rules. It is called DUNGEONS & Dragons after all, and it's magic. Worse even, it knows it is magic haha.
Vive la difference. I'm glad you have a love for long sprawling dungeons. I do not. I feel like a dungeon level should fit on posterboard. I love the visual of maps and miniatures for fast gamplay and a "wow" factor for my players without having to draw on a flip mat or fiddle with tiles.
yes, the game has all this and ot course, Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson had dungeons in mind when those Ideas came up. But - a big but - they also had other types of gameplay in mind, like urban settings, wilderness settings, social interaction. All this in the DNA of RPGs. I think the focus on Megadungeons has become prominent in the last years because of nostalgia, not only in classical style gaming, but also in the OSR and modern style gaming. It shows people of all styles want this, but to me, neither the Sandbox, Hexcrawl, Dungeoncrawl type only make a good adventure, we need them all. Otherwise we would not need the wilderness encounter tables, the Ranger Class, the Thief class etc. NetHack, MUD, Rogue have always had that style of play on the computer, Ultima Underworld, Wizardry etc., SSI Goldbox made this mainstream, also Bards Tale. The dungeon crawl style has not been that prominent in Germany where I come from, gaming culture is different from the US or UK.
Fun Fact, Gygax didn't use over half of the rules in AD&D. OSRIC at least cleans up the mess that is the Gygaxan rules and makes them more clear and understandable.
Megadungeons out of style these days? Quite the opposite, I should think! There have been more published in the past decade that there ever were back in the day. Yours, Stonehell, Barrowmaze, ASE, Archaia, Highfell, the list goes on and on. When I was playing last century, everyone seemed to base their campaigns on the modest-sized dungeons you'd find in most module and magazines. Castle Greyhawk type setups were scarcely known. Now is the true Age of the Megadungeon.
I don't see augury and divinaiton built around dungeons. Useful there for sure, but massively useful in any setting. And even things that are built primarily for dungeons, it doesn't necessitate megadungeons.
5e players hate dungeon crawls. They want adventures where they go to the prom and pay their school dues by working at a coffee shop where oh so random things happen to their teifling and green slime characters that have furry fetishes
I'm not a fan of megadungeons. At least not ones that are massive underground complexes. I prefer large mini-campaign adventures with a mix of outdoor and undergrown locations (including above ground buildings). IMO, most of the megadungeons I've seen are a random hodge podge of disconnected rooms, not an eco-system.
I try and have at least one, tentpole in every region I develop. I love old school editions for these and the whole explorers; of the dark and dangerous aesthetic. I think my campaigns, need them. Players don't need to go there; but if they do the hazards and risks, bring great rewards. Keeping the notes from old stories that petered out and dead campaign threads. They end up forgotten and filed with notes from games past and years ago. I resurrect them across Editions and stitch them together from disparate pieces, as I am doing now. They are all home-brewed, so I can recall them well. The Sprawling Abyss in Western Barava. Caer Battiri in North Eastern Alkaven. Castle Greyskull in Kordalkren. The Lake islands of Rastil. The Temple of Seth, beneath the ruins of Assossanath. These are all still waiting; to tempt more fools to make, or break their fortunes upon them. None have ever been completely delved; though some entertaining stories and treasures of great worth, have been plumbed from them over the years. They have all claimed their fair share of victims too, including whole adventurer groups sometimes.
I've never been fond of megadungeons, mainly because they end up feeling like Diablo. Just levels filled with random crap without rhyme or reason, like it was a videogame.
I wholeheartedly concur. Its what Gygax, Kuntz and company were playing when the rules were written. How could it not be what was on their minds and baked into the rules? Even the non-tournament modules coming out at the time were large by today’s comparison. G1-3, S4/WG4 in particular. Great post!
So what do you give your dwarf, gnome, and cleric players to make up for the fact that you're taking away some of their mechanical benefits? It's a slight lessening of their abilities, but still very real.
