Its just so much easier for outer melbourne councils to build out rather than dealing with nimbys. That being said it would be nice to see some mid rises next to the stations as apart of new developments. Having some level of minimum density requirements around train stations would be nice and ensure that hundreds of thousands of homes get built close to PT
It's not as simple as sprawl v nimbyism. Housing commission land acquisition and high rise redevelopment in the inner and middle suburbs was tried in the 60s-70s - and found wanting
@maddyg3208 besides the slow and often pain regulatory and approval process (which these councils that have adequate space aren't even bothering with) it is nimbyism. You can't really point to the 60's and 70's as a good example either as that was the height of sprawl and apartments were seen as housing for the poor and disadvantaged.
Just set the zoning to 10 or 20 stories around stations. No need to force investment into apartment living nowhere near the city. Especially the first block facing the station, where the buildings themselves could serve as sound and sight barriers to the trainline.
Not triplication or qualification the Dandenong corridor was the BIGGEST missed opportunity of the LXRP in my opinion. The corridor supports metro, Vline, freight, and south east Melbourne is the reserved site for a second Melbourne airport, and will eventually be connected to the Dandenong corridor. If they added 4 lines instead of keeping the original 2 they could have had express trains from say oakleigh into the city, drastically decreasing travel times and making it competitive with the car, while also increasing reliability of vline, freight and eventual second airport. I’d love to see a video on LXRP, or even one on the missed opportunity of the western rail plan
LXRP is no short of missed opportunities. Essendon could have been upgraded with Platform 1 fully operational. Caulfield - Moorabbin could have been quadrupled. RRL could have been built without any crossings. So many things that we missed unfortunately, but biggest is definitely the Dandenong corridor.
Playing devils advocate here, but why should one railway line get all the $$ spent on it? Quadruplication, even to Dandy, would have cost many billions. At least with LXRA most lines have the first upgrade they have received in decades of under-investment.
Note that it wasn't just Vline services that would have to wait for a platform at Pakenham. Metro services would also experience wait times outside of Pakenham for an empty platform. Thus, this solution helps both Metro and Vline services as it will remove the dwell times experienced by both. Additionally, the suburb was proposed first prior to any announcement of the new station. Thus, the state government used this solution as it killed two birds with on stone by removing the bottleneck at Pakenham and providing public transport to the new suburb. Also, the alternative solution to removing the bottleneck at Pakenham (which had been suggested for years) was building a third platform at Pakenham which would have been a huge undertaking if done by skyrail/viaduct and a trench would most likely have been flood prone.
I am one of those people who will be building and moving to the area in the next 12 months. I am disabled so a new station that I can navigate easy is a blessing. As for low density vs high density housing, you need to state your personal preference. Do you want people to have separate homes, or just a unit in a block of units. The house blocks that are currently available are small, no room for pools, trampolines or even pets (if you care about animals) If you are pushing the high density housing closer to the city, then the government really needs to improve the tram stops for people like me who would need to use trams. And after watching many 'drivers view of route XX' there is just not the space to build accessible stops along many tram routes
@@tangiers365 Not all disabled people are the same, we do not have the same needs, we are not all going to the same destination. I get around in a wheelchair. If I use a bus, I have to hold on very tight as the bus goes around corners. The train is a delight to use, if it is a nice weather day. The trains have spaces inside for wheelchairs, and there is a ramp that the driver can pull out for us to use. THe main 'ick' is I have to enter at the drivers end of the train, on many platforms there is no shelter from the sun or the rain at the ends of the platforms. Many of these new stations seem to have fixed that issue
The answer is medium density housing (it's cheaper to build than high density development when not needed). Adding more density does not take away what already does not exist in your experience. Some housing even small is better than no housing in this tight housing supply market. People don't need pools or trampolines, that's just entitlement talking. You're the shining example of a NIMBY. Also to note, higher density actually incentivize more improvements to existing infrastructure because the spending return on investment is much higher.
I reckon basically everyone wants cheaper housing and shorter commutes primarily. I'd love a huge increase in family unit / apartment supply closer to the city to drive down prices. Accessibility could be cheapest addressed with subsidised housing near accessible hubs, but they have to address current subsidy issues first (ie they have to actually bring down housing costs instead of increasing investor profits).
@@Coz131 What part of what he said was NIMBY? He literally argued for change and suggested demand be looked into. What's NIMBY is councils rejecting medium density permits without other cause, or residents petitioning local councils to do so.
Minor nit pick but long commutes via train are much more enjoyable than by car. I used to use my long train commute to catch up on stuff before work. That being said 90 minutes daily is probably the maximum I could stomach.
They really need to build some denser development at least in the 500m immediate walk shed radius of the station area, some mid-to-high rise buildings, decreasing to 3 or 4 stories as you get out to 2km and encouraging townhomes and duplexes in the 10km radius around that.
I always enjoy keeping up with the rail systems down under! And this channel is one of my favourite ways to do it. Clear, pithy, polished graphics, and by far the nicest sounding Australian accent I recall hearing. Almost sounds British.
@Carl_Wheezy the host of CityMoose has a very normal general Australian accent, which is quite different from any British accent. (An upper class Australian accent, sometimes called a cultivated Australian accent, does sound rather English at times, but this is not what he speaks with in his videos
Question - why do all your videos on major infrastructure projects seem to have such a negative take? In this video, you spent such little time talking about the project itself and more about the issues with urban sprawl. You criticised metro tunnel for not having a South Yarra station connection (which was covered in the business case) as well as other claims which did not have much substance, and the SRL video was also overly critical. How about cover the project, what it sought to have achieved, and how it did (both positives and negatives) rather than spending 90% of the video pushing an agenda
Don't much agree with the schtick here about "it is just promoting Melbourne's urban sprawl". Firstly, in geographically large cities far fewer people commute from outer suburbs to a single CBD than people think - it is not just houses but also jobs that are spread widely across a big city. Railway networks promote that. Sure, that needs much better RADIAL transport (a deficiency Melbourne has in spades for road as well as rail) - but that is precisely what the Suburban Rail Loop is about. Secondly, in the case of the new East Pakenham station it is at least as much about improving the rural rail network as commuting - getting rid of the Pakenham bottleneck is actually a big deal for those of us living in Gippsland.
I absolutely agree. They are pushing 15 minute cities, which I think I think is a great idea. Also there is the concept of 'pearls on a string'. These are services along the way such as shopping centres and hospitals that people will regularly visit.
Also worth considering that it's really not much more additional service then the area was already getting. Between it being pretty close to the existing station and VLine services catering for areas further east, you'd think that land would become suburban subdivision regardless. That, and when you look at most European examples they also have these style of services running around too. You can 100% catch a train to London from about anywhere 1hr out. The main difference being those services are closer to Vline than Metro.
I think city commuting might be far more common than you think. There literally isn't work in my field in the north or west (where housing is affordable). Just the city itself and some small amount in the inner east. The outer suburbs are almost entirely residential. Trains out of the city in the morning and into the city after work are relatively empty. I think the whole outer loop thing is an attempt at "build it and they will come."
If you think this urban sprawl is unsustainable check out Clyde, which still hasn't got a commitment to an extension of the Cranbourne line, and which is already covered in McMansions and unwalkable courts and crescents. Or Wallan, Beveridge, Wyndham, Tarneit, ... Greater Melbourne is ridiculous.
If they were doing this right, they should have set aside areas for higher-density development next to the station, creating an East Pakenham Town Centre with a high street, shops and cafes, as well as both taller and midrise housing, to augment the lower density of the housing scheme. If the lower density area was still walkable to shops, then it would allow it to be walkable to the new station. But... oh well.
For perspective the train from Geelong to Melbourne takes an hour and twelve minutes (or 56 minutes if it is express), so it is a slightly shorter journey time than East Pakenham to Melbourne. I know where I'd rather live! There are plenty of affordable houses/townhouses in North Geelong/Norlane/Corio near the station and Lara is full of new housing estates within a short drive of the station. Plus Geelong is an established town that has pretty much everything you need within a short drive, unlike urban fringe developments in Melbourne which will have inadequate infrastructure for decades.
Nice informative video mate! 0:40 - If only it went beyond all the way back to Warragul, as both the previously mentioned town and Drouin are apparently the fastest growing towns in the country. If electrification was gonna get extended back to there, you’d definitely need a new type of EMU suited for journeys beyond the boundaries of the city. 6:05 - But nope, the state government decided to just be stupid and go with the same number of tracks between Dandenong and Caulfield (which is heavily used by V/Line and freight trains*.), with two signalling systems (with CBTC only on Metro trains, nothing else.)🙄 *Soon more freight trains will be using the corridor once the Dandenong South Intermodal Terminal has opened to rail traffic.
On the housing density , some people are quite happy to live in flats/units/commission housing blocks squeezed in like sardines , which does afford certain advantages being close to public transport, shopping centres that usually comes with higher density population areas. But that is not for everyone, parts of Melbourne a lot of the older houses where on a quarter acre block with nice big front and back yards , having that extra space is very nice. If you look at some of the modern and recent housing estates they are horrible with houses packed on small blocks with houses so close , you can hear the next door neighbour fart. How anyone can think this is a good thing is beyond me. My girlfriend lived in a housing commission block of flats ….. it was appalling imo . It is still a roof over peoples heads for sure , and some don’t mind it . But living in a shoebox just so you can be close to the train station….. not for this little black duck. The other thing about the train from Pakenham to Melbourne , an hour to get there …. Holy crap , surely we could have some faster trains ? In 2024 we should have some fast trains.
Unfortunately speeds are limited by only 2 tracks all the way to Caulfield. Any express or Vline train is held up by the stopping all stations in front of it. There are 3rd platforms at Dandenong and Westall but this isn't sufficient to allow faster services. As City Moose mentioned, a 3rd track is needed to allow for express services.
the idea o having a house with a garden is destorying the cities, in fact melbourne is ridiculous big due those houses , then you have to build a lot of highways, always add one more lane and never will be enough, you have the example there, in usa, is not working and is not healthy, then you will be losing 2 hous per day for your daily commute to work. also this extra spaces that you describe as very nice is 99% of the time empty,
Melbourne needs a new city core like Parramatta but done better, or perhaps even like, 10+... what am i talking about, surely thats crazy. if only there was an orbital railway that could make a bunch of connections around our network positioned to provide dense, accessible, transit oriented development...
@@qjtvaddict yesyesyeysyeysgeysyesyeys, who are these "Great Depression" guys ripping up critical urbanising infrastructure, like bro, personally, i don't think depression is great XD
highly recommend filling out the department of transport and planning's feedback survey for the upcoming year's plan so you can take some action on your opinions and hopefully see some good change.
A question for your Q&A: Have you thought about doing an idealised rail network for Melbourne since it seems there is a lot of yet unused potential in that city? I've seen that Building Beautifully did this for Sydney, finding a lot of ideas for new lines. So I'd be interested which ideas you have for Melbourne or maybe even other cities
Solid video. Here’s my questions. Tell us more about yourself! Where do you live, where are you from, what got you into this type of content, what’s your job, what’s your bank account details, what’s your credit card PIN…ok you don’t have to answer those last two lol.
Yes good comment, I live in Pakenham. I am sure this bloke doesn’t. The new stations are very good. Also removal of the three level crossings is a bonus.
Essentially, people out in remote Pakenham East are in Vline territory but instead, their trains stop at every painful station. Plus, good luck to other people trying board trains further up the line that used to be able to get a seat or even on the train, but now have to fight their way on the train. A 'Metro' train shouldn't be travelling more than hour from the cities CBD.
The state government has stated there will be another 105,000 homes built in the City of Casey by 2051.So there'll probably be enough patronage to make this worthwhile.
These days, a new train station out in the burbs should mean a square mile of low-mid rise TOD along with the standard bus loop and park and ride. However, what's ridiculous in Melbourne is that stations near the urban center don't even have that yet. Density pretty much gives up past South Yara, even when the train lines keep going. If the Victoria government needs to institute anything, it would be a state-wide TOD mandate. In my Canadian province of BC, the government recently passed new TOD laws mandating 8-20+ story mixed use residential buildings within a half mile radius of every train station. Melbourne might not have to go that extreme as there's many more train stations to work with, but something along those lines would probably help solve the housing crisis. That's why Vancouver is doing it.
Oh, look, there is a challenge to Sydney's Opera House ! Oh, wow, another one along the line ... AND THAT ONE ... is THAT another railway station ...? No wonder Victoria is broke. Why couldn't they build smart looking, timeless in architecture, practical AND COST efficient structures ?
Would love for you to do a video on Melbourne's obsession with infrastructure projects in the east vs. the neglect in the west...especially when it comes to trains
While I dont doubt the potential for the station to service new suburbs is a sincere motivator for the station, the operational considerations are clearly the primary driver behind why the station was built. As mentioned in Tailset's video, the engineering guidelines prevent junctions on elevated track. Said junctions would be neccesary to operate the station as a terminus for suburban trains. So not only were the current facilities at Pakenham not really great, but they couldnt be replicated in the new elevated design anyway. That neccesitated building something further down the line at ground level. I think if you took away all consideration for servicing future population, East Pakenham still gets built, but if you didnt have to worry about the operational concerns, you probably dont build East Pakenham
Big problem, Vic Roads builds roads, Vic railways build railways. Never the two shall meet. Just look at the bicycle path in Blackburn where Vic Roads has it going the lengtth of Laburnum street. No separtae path for the bike riders. A shared user path is now officially a road between bikes & vehicles where normally it is between bikes and people. Blabkburn residents were shotchanged by vic roads. Their first public meeting was at Blackburn North about 3 km from the bike path. whitehorse council failed the residents and now will use council funds to finish a bike path that was promised. But it is ok to reduce the speed limit on Laburnum Road to 40k that makes it safe.
The real issue is too many people having old inner city houses that aren't willing to sell the property to make way for apartments, which leads to even more urban sprawl and more traffic issues.
6:43 300m2-500m2 blocks (plus all the joined town houses) " low density" LOL well i guess it is in your channel name "City". where all these laws and fictitious definitions are made, so you are right... calling it low density is as misleading as putting a chihuahua on Gumtree as a tiny German Shepard time to get real, i owned one of these "low Density house". you can hear next door taking a dump on the toilet. i can confirm he took more time on said toilet than his misses enjoyed her bedtime activitys....
It IS low density. That is just a fact. If you want the entire thing to be estates of several acres at least, that no longer is even counted as density. It's a *sparsely* populated area.
There is already a huge established industrial area on the south side stretching from Pakenham East and Pakenham stations, Officer station has a town centre and medium housing, offices planned next to it, some shops already built, it has a small industrial area near it at the moment, with a new industrial area planned for the south side of the M1 freeway off Officer south road. Hopefully that answers your questions.
Planning in the area is still a bit o a screw up. Last year i was at ryan rd which overlooks the new rail yards. The east side of the rd is planned as residential whilst the western side closer to pakenham is zoned rual res. One of the houses on this side has had a kitchen fire. Due to itss steel frame the house has been written off by the insurance company. Owners are left in limbo whether to rebuild due to the rural res zoning and the likelihood of it being changed.
The new station is great, but we have to get out of this habit of building low density suburbia. Even a few modest sized, middle density buildings near a station like this would have been a great opportunity.
Why can victorian governmen exchange the Melton and to bacchus Marsh to and electric train service. Also Victorian government can train longer from Werribee to Colac
You've lost my respect somewhat. Your comment that the train will encourage urban sprawl is untrue. Have you seen the change in that area of Melbourne in the last 10-15 years? It has gone from paddocks to endless houses and the associated population within a decade. The sprawl to East Pakenham would have happened train station or not. I think it's great they have planned ahead a bit. Future generations will thank the government for having the foresight to build this new infrastructure, debt or not. Is it going to be cheaper if you delay it for years? No, of course not!
No place for purists criticism of what is a welcome resource for outer suburbs. These commenters could also consider many people may prefer or need a car based outer suburb lifestyle over a green square like high density option.
If you have a look at the location of East Pakenham, you will realise that the station cannot be rebuilt/raised given the line passes under the Princes Freeway on the down side of the station.
Why would they ever have to elevate it? There are no level crossings between Pakenham and East Pakenham, the nearest level crossing to the west is beyond far enough to allow they to raise the track after passing the Princess freeway, and any new roads that might intersect the railway would just be designed to bridge over it, given the railway is already there.
Unfortunately speeds are limited by only 2 tracks all the way to Caulfield. Any express or Vline train is held up by the stopping all stations in front of it. There are 3rd platforms at Dandenong and Westall but this isn't sufficient to allow faster services. As City Moose mentioned, a 3rd track is needed to allow for express services.
You need to spend more time on the other cities and what is happening and could happen. There is a lot of content on Melb and Syd already on line. You could really get your teeth into what is occurring in Perth, which is extensive works through for the next five years and then what goes beyond that. How can Mandurah lines and Fremantle lines get connected, by rail through south frem or some express light rail. Can High wycombe connect with Armadale line? when? Can Reid Hwy be utilised for cross rail between Joondalup line and Midland/Ellenbrook lines. How should Gnangara/East Wanneroo be serviced in the future. Is a spur off Malaga really the right option. It seems reallly indirect. Then would that line to East Wanneroo really connect up at Clarkson? What are prospective ferry services? Can there be trams now that all the streets around the city CBD and into the CBD have been narrowed for landscaping and wider footpaths. The road reserve space has been so reduced. BDub idea of tram through Kings park and hospital UWA to service tourists, hospital and uni. Is that feasible. Is trams ever going to be feasible in the Knowledge Arc (Curtin to UWA) With heavy rail, Failure to have the Morley station at Morley Galleria and the ramification. Bayswater having three lines connecting but it can never really be a proper high density or business hub. I know you've touched on some of these topics. But it needs a deep dive and multiple videos.
Adding stations preemptively for new suburbs is fine, but then why not look at preempting the problems of old stations? This is yet another half-century old car-centric design. Brand new stations that look like this is embarrassing.
Pre-empting the new suburb is really a secondary consideration. I strongly suggest watching tailset's video. The main issue is that they needed facilities to handle terminating services, but these facilities couldn't be provided at an elevated station.
I don't think it's really needed only if the Government capped development in the major cities when they can invest more into bigger regional towns that can grow such as let's say for eg; Bendigo, Ballarat and Wodonga all connecting to Melbourne using upgraded regional train lines without disruption to freight lines. Infrastructure wouldn't cost as much in the cities and since land isn't developed. Only routes that will see HSR construction within the late 2020's-30's is Newcastle - Sydney - Canberra.
Melbourne - Sydney is viable because both cities have more than 5 million people and its in the top 10 busiest airports corridors in the world. China and EU have replaced many domestic air corridors with HSR.
@@jaderulz2000 Melb - Syd isn't viable because the cost would far outweigh the benefits, especially when most people would prefer to fly. It would be cheaper and faster. For reference, it is estimated it would cost over $100b. It's more realistic for Melbourne and Sydney to be connected to other major cities in their state. There is a business case being made for Sydney and Newcastle HSR right now.
The "Melbourne is six times the land size compared to London" is used heavily out of context since Australia classifies nearby towns into the same city. It really only around two times bigger
London desperately needs heavy emphasis on the rail because half of their roads are barely wide enough for a horse and cart , you can see very quickly much of the buildings and roads where built in the days of the crusades , and in some places, they have been hardly touched .
