Metallica Producer: CLIFF vs JASON, Making JUSTICE, PUPPETS, LIGHTNING Missing Bass Stranger Things 

too hard to choose, also depends on the day 😉

Haha, all 3 albums are awesome.

@@kBlueberry2024Same I can’t decide lol

@@kBlueberry2024Definitely a hard choice, but I’d have to say And Justice

ride the lightning

Flemming’s contribution to Metallica is definitely underrated

Flemming > Bob schmuck Rock

@@TML0677 sure the black album has good songs, but Fleming helped make Metallica.

Don't go so far with the first one. But he definetely made history with them

@@vananon51 Cliff helped make Metallica. Their evolution started under his influence. But yeah Flemming let the band do what they wanna do and it was almost everytime right.

SAME!!!!

Exactly . It's absurd . Probably cause He will tell Lars the drums are ridiculous .

Why they haven't by now is beyond ridiculous. I wonder what the real reason is as to why they haven't yet. Too many magic tricks back then as compared to now or what? Confusing since those were simply the best form of Metallica that ever existed.

Yep. I've no clue why they dont.. Instead they entertain that jerk who's got no idea. Or even Bob Rock.. Its like they purposely want to discredit and avoid the producers who made them what they are today.

Flemming is so fuckin metal. 😄

That struck me too.

@@Jayteaseepiirturi Always wondered how Metallica would’ve turned out if Cliff didn’t die.

@@benhemperson5963 Or if Jason didn't leave or if Dave wasn't fired etc etc. While I can appreciate how much they all love Cliff and whatever they learned from him concerning music and all... there are times that it goes a bit overboard. Having that said... Imagine Justice with Cliff. Now that's a riot. :D

@@Jayteaseepiirturi Do you think musically Metallica would have taken the same path during the Load/ReLoad era if Cliff was still in the band? Agreed there’s so many variables but it’s interesting to think about the alternate possibilities

@@benhemperson5963 Okay, fine. I'm gonna let out the fanboy. :D I'm from Jason era so it's really hard to say. But a part of me thinks Burton might have wanted things to get a bit more... I don't know, progressive? Justice might have well been in line with all that. But I don't know, the kind of fella Cliff seems to be by all the descriptions, Loads seem to be right down his alley.

You're welcome man, cheers.

they were also burned out and more than a little deaf...they mixed that album between shows on tour....play show, fly to studio, get loaded, mix, fly to show, repeat.

TBA had plenty of bass too.

I'm not buying your hypothesis. I chose to specialise bass in the early days because modern electric bass is the most tremendous big dick sound I've ever heard, and when played tight and glued to the kick drum is even more tremendous. You've heard and justice for jason, its objectively a superior mix. I've done a recording of blackened, and over compensated for all the years of hearing no bass, by over playing the bass and it sounds even more fucking tremendous. We'll never know the real reason why they turned jason down but it certainly wasn't because they were going for some "specific sound". Its a masterful album and they ruined it for some reson.

@@bassedtaz and justice for jason is a terrible mix. its mix by someone that that doesn't have a clue about mixing. The bass is simply put on top as the loudest instrument (like it is the lead) It's the stupidest mix I have ever heard

@@bassedtaz What I kind of like (and also dislike) about Metallica is that, they're not doing a remixed version. Hah, I want Justice to Jason and all that, but in the end, is not sticking to their guns about the Justice mix also saying: "We fucked up, you can all listen to how we fucked up and learn from our mistakes"? And even Jason let that thing go, saying they pretty much did that to Cliff, too. It's kind of sad because what Jason's doing down there on Justice is more intricate than most people realise and, say, Hetfield gives him credit for. He seems to have a distinct way of playing bass guitar that, say, Trujillo or even Burton probably couldn't touch. It's recognizable, it's breathable and it's signaturely his way. I recently listened to that Tina Turner song where Newsted played bass. The chops were insanely familiar, even though it was a softer song. I believe it's also rooted in what Bob Rock had said to him about Black Album and Metallica: dude, in this band, you don't play bass conventionally and you've got a limitless space to play in in the bass area. I think I know what Bob meant.

It's only two days old, give it time.

Thanks Matt! How’d you like this one compared to the first Metallica interview?

🤞🏻

@@DanielSarkissian loved it. I appreciate all your interviews. It’s all great content!

You’re welcome Matt, cheers.

It's terrible they don't make a great record with him stat.

Metallica referenced Motley Crue as one of the reasons for choosing Bob Rock. I was always surprised that they publicly stated that. Back then, the Crue was a line in the sand. Nowadays, $$ rules. Nothing Else Matters. (😂sorry!)

@@angelotro Yeah, that statement had a cash register ring to it.

And now you can hear how much worse things have gotten sonically since Bob Rock, right?

​@@angelotroThey referenced Crue AND Bon Jovi's records that Rock produced. But James specified "but the bands sucked and the songs were f@cking g@y.".

@@toddmorrissey8372 if you mean post Bob Rock with Rubin... much of a muchness for me. James just doesn't have enough co-contributors for any producer to fix.

*Flemming

@@coyleigh Phlegming

Imagine how excited fans would be if they announced they were doing this. I’d flip out

Thanks a lot, appreciate it & agreed, it would be awesome if Flemming and Metallica did another album together.

I hear what you're saying, but Metallica is locked in to recording at HQ, LOOKING at the music(vs. LISTENING) on a grid and quantizing everything. Not much of difference Fleming could make unless they went into an outside studio, and agreed to a totally different sonic concept. I mean, they have their own label (Blackened) and literally their own vinyl album pressing plant.

Such a wasted opportunity… This whole thing about a ‘snapshot in time’… The mix is off. Nothing deserves a remix more than Justice.

They would pull a Gene and Paul and remix it with Robert playing. They would screw it up completely by doing that.

@@geraldlocklear4373 Doubt it. Jason's bass parts are flawless.

Thanks a lot! Appreciate it

Thanks man, appreciate it. Cheers.

I think that 99% of Metallica fans totally disagree. The "Flemming Albums" are Metallicas best Albums. Not by accident called "Holy Trinity". Not by accident, with TBA, Metallicas highest ranking albums in the greates Records of all Time.

Thank you, appreciate it. Cheers.

Interesting, so you never got into the black album? And I had no idea the CD version of Justice sounds different

@@anthonyroberts1424Two things-I was clobbered by radio play with the Black Album as my group of friends, many of which, didn’t get the earlier vibe. Me and my buddy veered away. Those first 4 was our scene. It was hard as a fan letting go of the private club of it all. Bob Rock definitely made them more accessible and I missed that edge. It was the second time in short years that it had happened. Nirvana’s Bleach was my kind of record , then Nevermind landed. It was omnipresent. Then Kurt was taken, and I’ve only recently been able to listen to them again. Mostly to do with the tragedy of how it all went down. I so wish he was still making music. I’ll have to give the Black lp another go with fresh ears. Yes…I noticed a difference with the new lp. I can’t say they turned up Jason’s bass parts, but they warmed it up with some bass frequencies. It’s a bit less sterile sounding(could be a digital artifact) and I loved that album but even in its day, we knew the bass was missing? I never did hear the original vinyl. Having said that, I haven’t compared the two sources I own and don’t know? If they did, it was without overly compressing it like you hear on many new records.I’m not always a fan of remasters-I don’t actually know if they did remaster it. I know my stereo is better so maybe that’s to do with it. Sometimes you can hear the album as it was meant to be heard. Some recent remixed/remastered Replacement records definitely benefited. I only knew the Justice cd from its release. I worked in a record store as those early albums came out during the hair metal heyday and what a breath of fresh air it was. I actually got to see them on the Justice tour and they killed. Loud, tight as hell, and sounded great. Best part, (and I wondered if it would happen to me at the time as I looked around at ‘adult’s’ in the 80’s)…..as I’ve aged, I never lost my love for music and for turning it up to 11’. Maybe I never grew up. It’s beautiful lime green, great sounding vinyl from their own pressing plant.

@@GIBKEL That’s a really interesting comparison you just made between early Nirvana & Metallica, I think the black album may have been more beneficial to Metallica than Nevermind was to Nirvana in the sense that Metallica mania lasted longer in my opinion: In Utero was actually outsold by Pearl Jam VS pre Kurt’s death. If Kurt didn’t die I think the black album would still be bigger than Nevermind, but in either case yes seeing the mainstream eat up Metallica changed the “vibe”

@@GIBKEL If the black album didn’t get as big as it did, do you think Metallica would have stayed closer to their roots musically?

@@GIBKEL And in terms of CD vs Vinyl vs Cassette, I never really thought the sound would be that different but now you’ve got me thinking lol. That’s killer you got to see Metallica live during the Justice tour, how would compare their live performances now?

Thanks Terence

Thank you Brian! Appreciate it.

@@DanielSarkissian killer interview, thanks Daniel

Thanks Jake, cheers.

​@@DanielSarkissianhe is right fantastic interview

Thank you Leon.

Thanks man

"Justice for the fans" - you seem to be one of those people who think artists "owe" their fans something. They don't.

Would be super cool

Do u think they’d capture the same vibe?

100%. Fidelman is overdone as their producer/eng. Too scared to tell them no. Too many yes men all around them in their Metalli-bubble. The albums have just gotten mushier and lazier, esp from Lars and Kirk. They need someone like Bob or Flemming that will call them out on what sucks or not. Where to edit. What the tones need to be. They also need an outsider to mix. The more involved James and Lars are in that part, the worse the result seems to have been. Andy Sneap for example would do a great job with them. The new Priest album sounds brilliant.

@@pgbangarang8394you really have no clue what you’re on about. Flemming didn’t call them out much and hetfield and lars controlled everything on them first 4 albums

Why Cliff and Kirk were gunning for Lars' head lol . ..Cliff and Kirk informed those records, Lars got very lucky .

Thanks a lot Greg

It was loud on the next album, TBA. Also loud on Garage Days.

Probably would have an tin can sound😂

@@michaelboyle5805 awesome

His big pause when asked about the Load/Reload albums was quite funny 😄

Fixxxer too 2014

Thank you Fern, you're very welcome. & agreed, it's cool that Master of Puppets got an homage in one of the biggest shows out there. I personally haven't watched Stranger Things yet though, I gotta get on that lol.

@@DanielSarkissian It's really a ton of fun. Enjoy!

Thanks Fern, cheers.

SAME!! When I saw the master of puppets scene I was like YAAAAAA 😂 So cool they actually did that

Which season of Stranger Things does this happen?

Thanks man 🇮🇪

James just swinging his balls around . That said . Down and stuff did erode PanterA and dlr n Eddie doing outside things started to break vH down it was kind of a valid point, when bands do outside things, it's often the road away from the MissioN/m\ ya know . .

The Ensiferum records were great too, in a way he’s underrated af

Which Blind Guardian did he produce?

@@Skoora Imaginations From The Other Side and Nightfall In Middle Earth.

@@Skoora Imaginations and did a lot of work on Nightfall as well

Thanks for the BG references 👍

That was the best Metallica, seen them on the black album tour. when they really put on a full on show, after that just couldn't listen to any of their stuff. They played Slane and I just couldn't go to see them. They've never been listenable since they released load. Just copying what was trending at that particular time. Sad but true, maybe I've just an eighties metal ear. But I don't listen to much new metal. All bands seem to follow the same template to me.

Thanks Claus

Thanks Bryan

Yes. Listen to Cliff's isolated bass tracka and you can hear him playing the intro on Bass

Check out some live shows too. There's a few where James and Cliff do a duet on guitar and bass for the intro and it sounds amazing.

I agree, RTL always resonates with me the most.

It's all in the ears of the listner. "...and Justice for All" is the only Metallica album I still somewhat regularily listen to, and to me it's their best album, obviously. I'm not saying by any means that I think RtL and MoP are bad albums, but Justice is just more my thing.

Are you saying there is double bass on ride the lightning fade to black and trapped under ice but we just can’t hear it? If that’s true that’s cool, didn’t know that

@@benhemperson5963 Yeah, the kick drum is really low when you think about it. Maybe Lars held a grudge and that's why the bass on Justice is so low.

because thats the way metal was mixed in the 80's.... before And Justice For All. kick drums werent highly compressed or pushed to the forefront. it was mixed "as it was played". this tie's in with the whole "why was Jason turned down in the mix". because in 88 Lars & James decided to make the kickdrum ultra punchy and dominate. it became the norm after 88, but seriously listen to some Venom, Kreator and Possessed records from 1982-1986.... thats how metal was produced @user-Tulpa9Na6Metle

@@benhemperson5963 Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, the album "Ride the Lightning" is full of double bass, but you can hear it more or less well, only on fight fire with fire. I'm just writing with a translator, it's confusing.

@@coldacre Dude, I heard what you're talking about. I listened to Sleer, Anthrax, metal church, other bands of the early 80s, and ... I know what you're talking about, but...in my opinion, these bands, on the contrary, tried to emphasize the double bass, and metallica seemed to be the opposite.Metallica has well-accented kicks with cymbals), but the double bass, until the 88th year, sounded just like a inaudible. Even kill em all, everything is bad there in terms of legs, not only with the double bass, but also with twos. On kill em all, the feet are heard even worse than on Lightning. Not all groups had this problem. Many even with such a "barrel" sound, rather than a flat "justice" sound, sounded clearer than the double bass on the first three metallica albums.

Haha I never realized that lol. Great catch James

Sure, but I think it was a stupid thing to ask him to begin with. How should he know? It's a little like asking why a couple you knew 15 years ago, and had no affiliation with since then, recently broke up.

Correct. It was "Come Sweet Death"

Well sir they had to pay to use it.

@@JoeBlanton-wq3sm I can't corroborate if that is absolutely true or not. If it is true however, it is quite odd indeed since it is not a sample of the original.

@@TaureanMixing It doesn't have to be. It's very clear that it was derived from Oz because of the chanting, the rhythm of it, the feel. If you took the Enter Sandman riff and changed it just one semitone, it would still sound like the Enter Sandman riff. And you can't just take stuff, change it miniminally and get away with it.

@@roaringviking5693 Ah, thanks, I know how copyright works, it was part of training. Using Sandman riff as an example is not the same compared to this in the least. A chord progression or interval progression without clear representation of an actual song, cannot be copyrighted. Motifs are a bit tricky too. These three elements needs full melodic movement on top of them along with other musical elements, harmonies, counterpoints, etc., to create a full copyrighted work. Metallica did not do that in the least. They played a similar intervalic progression, rhythmically speaking, but a different interval in conjunction with an entirely different arrangement, instrumentation, harmony (or lack thereof). My point still stands, this story about the intro is peculiar, but interesting.

Dude, they even chant the same “ohh-eee-yo, yooo-ho!” It’s clearly lifted. Whether on purpose or not, at first. At least by the time they knew the connection, they intentionally leaned into it. And I love it, anyway! Such a cool little Easter egg.

Get yourself a copy of James' book Messengers... It's literally about his guitars and amps that he's used throughout his career. From his first Electra V right up to "Carl". It's a killer book 🤘🤘

The recorded Master of Puppets with james Jackson V with seymour Duncan Invader pickups for an example.

He uses a copy of flyngV more likely were cheap pickups

Because that's pretty well known. Especially when it comes to the pick-ups. And the guitars are also widely known...

James vocals in the 80s actually were much better! The power, the anger and the aggression were much better suited to Metallica's sound. However, this is always a question of taste... Some people who like the Black Album better than Justice or Puppets will see it the other way around.

check out Ahdy Khairat here on RU-vid, he did a couple of remix+remasters of the AJFA songs that had Jason's actual bass stems released with the Guitar Hero Metallica game. They're not just him slapping the raw bass track into the mix too, he actually adjusted all of the instruments and created a new sound.

They'll have to go back and remix it all rather than just remaster it.

@@panamajack5972love his remixes. Sounds like new songs in some cases.

You know you can buy remastered justice right now, yes? I think you mean remixed tho. ..but that will never happen. Watch dodgey RU-vid mixes if you're aching.

You seem to be one of those people who think artists owe fans something... they don't!

Lars is Metallicas drummer. Thats it. His playing is perfect for the band he formed with James. It doesn`t matter that he is not respected by other drummers, there is no denying what he and his band have done. Long after all these conversations are over about best drummers, Metallica will stand the test of time. They will be held in the same regards as The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zep, Pink Floyd. Heck, they reached that status a long time ago.

@@ernestbuckley8671 ...... And your point with this regarding my post?

Like Ringo!

@@davifernandeslima01 I'll give you that, while I'm good with executing music, I'm horrible at listening to it. And... well, Beatles have never appealed to me. :) But if you say so, I shall take your word for it. Plus Ringo is freakishly consistent in his simplicity.

Dude, Lars made a conscious decision not to maintain his chops years ago. Nevermind IMPROVING. When a guy can't play the parts he played night-after-night years ago, thats a major issue. He's an excellent arranger and song structure guy, and that's been his focus for over 20 years now.

So if you listen to all the versions with louder bass - they really do sound like shit! So it was obviously the right decision. Jason practically doubled James' guitar, which just sounds weird.

@@fam.hunger5244 even if I agreed with your premise... which, no. All that would mean is that the album sounds shit with and without louder bass... if that's the case how are good decisions being made by anyone? Next you'll be telling me St. Anger sounds worse with a less irritating snare sound.

@@fam.hunger5244I tend to agree. With the extremely driven tone of the VERY scooped guitars, I think they were sort of backed into a corner with regard to the final mix. The guitars have so much bass freq already that you’d almost have to boost the bass guitar to an unnatural level in order to get both audible. I think they learned a hard lesson here that (at least with regard to mixes) they learned how to fix that problem on The Black Album.

Dude they have barely talked in 40 years. This is pie in the sky unrealistic talk lol

@@khall187 it's very far fetched, I'll give you that, but it's also the wet dream of most hardcore Metallica fans. The fact that Lars and James have gotten way to comfortable with the way they're doing things at HQ is as clear as water, having them collaborate and write in the same way as they did back in the 80's would be a breath of fresh air, especially if they'd be working with people who know what they're capable of when they're bringing their A-game. Furthermore, James Hetfield and Dave Mustaine are among the best guitarists and songwriters in the metal genre, them not doing anything together before they retire would be a damn shame

+10 for the great pun lol

I love Jason. But that’s ridiculous. Cliff was an innovator. Jason would say so, himself.

both europeans from close countries

Both Danish guys.