Metering & Clipping - Behringer X32 vs Allen & Heath QU16 (Public)

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Lets look at the differences in the way input and output signal levels and clipping is displayed on a Behringer X32 vs an Allen and Heath QU16
00:00 Intro
00:40 Differing ways of presenting information
03:24 Setup description
04:35 X32 input meter vs audible clip
06:32 X32 M32 clip vs sound
07:11 QU16 input meter vs audible clip
09:18 QU15 output meter vs audible clip
10:04 X32 output meter vs audible clip
10:16 Summary of X32 vs QU16 metering vs audible clip
13:34 Visual representations and the impact on mixing
14:41 Outro
#1 Behringer X32 Compare Digital vs Analog Metering & Output Levels
Members - • Behringer X32 Compare ...
Public - • Behringer X32 Digital ...
#2 Midas M32 Vs Behringer X32 Sonic Differences
Members - • Comparing Midas M32 an...
Public - • Midas M32 Vs Behringer...
#3 Midas M32 vs Behringer X32 mic pre noise comparisons
Members - • Midas M32 vs Behringer...
Public - • Midas M32 vs Behringer...
#4 Midas M32 vs Behringer X32 LF Overload and Muting
Members - • Midas M32 vs Behringer...
Public - • Behringer X32 Vs Midas...
#5 X32 vs M32 Preamp Noise & Gain vs Trim
Members - • X32 vs M32 Preamp Nois...
Public - • X32 vs M32 vs Xenyx No...
#6 X32/M32 AES50 Latency and Chat
Members - • X32/M32 AES50 Latency ...
#7 X32/M32 AES50 Cable Type and Length
Members - • X32/M32 AES50 Cable Ty...
#8 Midas Behringer X32/M32 Digital Dreams of Being a Short Copper Wire
Members - • Copper Wire vs Midas M...
#9 X32/M32 Fader and Mute Pings
Members - • Behringer X32 Midas M3...
#10 X32/M32 Scoping and Loading the Outputs +26
Members - • Scoping & Loading Down...
#11 X32 vs QU32 Metering, clip and max output
Editing
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Опубликовано:

29 июн 2024

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Комментарии : 275

@jrrichardson99 2 года назад

Dave, as a proportionally new engineer (entering the industry around 2010), I really appreciate you bringing things back to the fundamentals and teaching us HOW to think, not WHAT to think. I too think the increasingly graphical nature of digital consoles is something of a distraction. As you highlighted here, the same sonic information can be presented in visually different ways, which undoubtedly must influence our decision making. I actively remind myself to ignore the screen, even close my eyes and actively listen. The visuals are a tool and a great asset at times, but consider there is now a generation who have only ever EQ’d a channel with their curve overlayed on an RTA of the input, which is a very different workflow and mindset to being presented with a pressure wave and a strip of pots with some numbers printed beside them.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Much appreciated and looking to do a video on heard vs seen at some point

@davidasher22 2 года назад

Got me laughing when you said “..you are not rocking like a hurricane”. Great content as always Dave!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Thank you David!

@aholder4471 2 года назад

I treat the yellow lights like the clip lights on the x32. It works pretty well for me. You get plenty of headroom left for those sneaky transient from an excited snare or something, and plenty of gain from the pre for good gain staging. Oh man, what you just said about under or over eqing because of the visual feedback...totally been there.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Cool cool, yes, trying to figure out an EQ video

@aholder4471 2 года назад

@@DaveRat The phase shift while boosting and cutting would be one topic for an eq video I'd like to see demonstrated. 👀

@DaveRat 2 года назад

I will ponder that type of test

@ToddWCorey1 2 года назад

Knowledge is power. Thanks, Dave!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

🤙🤙🤙🤙

@songboy40 Год назад

I think it's hard to overstate the importance of this. How information is presented, especially when we're having to move quickly, is a huge deal. Loving your content, Dave. Thanks for taking the time.

@DaveRat 8 месяцев назад

🤙🎛️🤙

@rapragermusic 2 года назад

Interesting take. Love the sub-bass outro theme too, clever.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍👍👍

@davidcoyle2298 2 года назад

This is so Useful Dave. Surprising how much difference there is between desks. I'm an analog guy and I've noticed a real difference running the M32/X32 a lot cooler. What you've done is made me understand why!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍👍👍

@schattenheim 2 года назад

Thanks - again a great insight and very useful :-) Have a great Year!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍👍👍

@jaredhenderson2861 11 месяцев назад

This was so helpful, I learned so much. Thank you! You are amazing!

@DaveRat 2 месяца назад

👍🤙👍

@matijatatomirovic3351 2 года назад

Killer content Dave!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍👍

@Not-Only-Reaper-Tutorials 2 года назад

always great topics. Top

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍👍

@thomasmork8084 2 года назад

I’m a DiGiCo guy now for many year, but was house tech on a M32 for a couple of years too when it just came out. I’m super excited to see you compare the M32, Qu-16 and an SD11! Hey, while you’re at it, ad in a Pro1!!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍👍

@BrianSimmons 2 года назад

Interesting point about the "throw" distances on analog EQ vs digital EQ. That is something I would have never thought about, but it makes perfect sense to me. That's clearly one of those "mix with your ears" situations, but the fact is that sometimes our minds prevent us from being willing to do something because of how we perceive something by sight.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

I hope to do a vid on the differences between the way differing EQs look vs sound. I believe that a good visual 8s helpful and a poor visual will inspire over and under EQ

@sebastianscharnagl8729 11 месяцев назад

That is tremendously helpful

@DaveRat 2 месяца назад

🤙👍🤙

@mixtresskatgranquist9898 2 года назад

Can confirm. I have mixed on both the X32 and the Qu16 and have noticed the difference.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍👍

@brianknight8195 Год назад

The metering of consoles/desks should conform to a standard so we ALWAYS KNOW what we’re looking at for reference, and yet, here we are, needing this video. I’m with you give me a midas analog desk and we’ll have a good night, but, I stayed in with the digital boards and got them sussed. I do like the lighter weight on packs😂🤣, after 40 years, my back is fine! That H3000 musta weighed 750 pounds!two guys lifted it? Ouch.

@DaveRat Год назад

Yes! There was much debate between being technically correct and intuitively practical when digital consoles gained traction. The tech lab humans won and the opinions of people that use it in the field list that battle. So we have technically correct metering that is intuitively flawed for people that have used analog. So mixing feels like driving without speedometers or speed limit signs marked whether they are kilometers or miles per hour. And get it wrong and you get distortion tickets

@robertweston2775 2 года назад

Dave - I agree with you 200% on user error with digital consoles. I started in '87 mixing on analog, and grew up in the analog world learning the basics and foundation of mixing. Since digital arrived, it seems most (certainly not all) people are using digital consoles thinking that these consoles are going to do all the thinking (and work) for them. And thanks to "presets" on digital consoles, most people will just push a button (touch the screen) to get what they want without understanding what they are doing. My career in audio is winding down and I am saddened and disappointed by the number of "engineers" who do not posses the basic skills/understanding of how to mix and what to listen for. And, like many jobs in the USA, there's not too many young people interested in audio that want to fill our roles as we retire and move out of the industry. Many thanks for all the great content and sharing your thoughts on digital! You are not alone!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Thank you Robert!

@TheRealCalijokes01 9 месяцев назад

I’m going to fullsail for recording arts it’s a passion I hope I can fill your shoes bro

@billschnake6378 2 месяца назад

Dave, I just saw this one last night. I am with you. I still have and love my Midas H3000-56 and XL4. I grew up analog and love the sound and what you can do with it. I have used the X32 on small shows and will often provide either that or a M32 for a visiting BE. If I am using digital I prefer my Midas Pro 1 or Pro 2 depending if it is a 1 off or a tour and how much space we have. Digital has it's place, but it is hard to beat an H3000 with a top notch rack.

@DaveRat 2 месяца назад

🤙👍🤙

@alm3333 2 года назад

Excellent video! Allen and Heath, in their documentation for the QU state that the PK LEDs illuminate at 3db before bad things happen, at both the channel strip and the outputs, at least for firmware 1.9.3. On our SQ, peak metering is illuminated at the same level (-3dB) , but presented even more obnoxiously with more blinking red PK LEDs on the surface. Allen and Heath really don't want you to clip your signal anywhere on the SQ. Side note, one of my friends out here helped you with a plumbing project many years ago, and you helped him get his first relatively big mixing console. I've seen quite a bit of what you say to in what he actually does. Thanks for being a cool Sound Human!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Super cool and thank you for the info. Trying to recall the plumbing and mixer. And awesome!

@alm3333 2 года назад

@@DaveRat Kemper Watson is my friend and audio business partner. You were redoing a bathroom like 15 or 20 years ago and he was helping make sure you knew what to do and how to do it right. Afterwards you helped him get a big Crest mixer.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Oh yes!! Totally know Kemper and super cool!

@arvidstorli2501 2 года назад

It's weird how sometimes our sight gets in the way of our ears :) "That knob can not be in that position. It looks weird. Eq can not look like that" and so on. When all we need to do is listen :)

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Agreed and seperating a visual that is a non issue and a visual that is an indicator of an issue gets really tough

@adamcoe 2 года назад

So it sounds like the A+H is simply calibrated (in terms of the metering) a little "cooler" to accomodate the 3 LED meter, so you can kiss the red without distorting, whereas when you have a larger meter like on the X/M32 and you can keep it out of clip a little easier. Both nice sounding boards when handled properly! And GREAT point about EQ, Dave. Definitely seeing an EQ plot on a more square aspect ratio screen vs a physically very wide piece of rack gear makes it look like your EQ moves are more dramatic than they are. Always appreciate the time and your giving out of this useful knowledge for free. Cheers!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Thank you Adam

@phel21 Месяц назад

The problem with Behringer's mic-pre is lack of headroom in the digital converter. The analog gain-stage in front of the converter will saturate like any analog circuit, but the clipping in the converter when the signal going into it is too hot is nasty. The Midas-preamps in the M32 and in Midas-stageboxes have converters with much higher headroom and behave differently. Restricting individual channel input-peak to somewhere between -18 and -12 dBm eliminates the problem.

@DaveRat Месяц назад

So are you saying the M32 and X32 have a different bit depth that is not in the specs? Or the M32 has the same bit depth as the X32 but is somehow able to derive additional headroom? How did you test that and verify that is the case?

@artysanmobile Год назад

Very interesting discovery, Dave. Inevitably, in a live audience situation, a mixer could miss clips, lots of them. Making those clips ‘harder’ to reach is a brilliant concept. In the days of analog this would entail a real loss of S/N, perhaps the difference between 60 and 55. In digital, this same 5dB S/N loss will likely occur at levels we will not hear, so no bigs.

@DaveRat Год назад

Yeah I would say the biggest problem with digital mixer mixing is engineers clipping and that's exasperated by consoles without enough output level. Adding a game stage after the console to keep the metering at lower levels is probably a good plan

@artysanmobile Год назад

@@DaveRat I have to say I’m surprised no manufacturer has gone all in on an intelligent soft clip mode.

@gregorykusiak5424 Год назад

Years ago in the 16bit digital world, AES established what I recall as a guideline for equating analog VU meters to digital full scale, AES-18, meaning when meters show -18dB(FS) you’re at 0dBVU or +4dBu (from the voltage perspective). Now in the 24bit digital world, with 144dB theoretical dynamic range between noisefloor and clip, we can make +4dBu = -24dBFS and have headroom at or approaching the same as classic large format analog equipment. It’s not operator error, in other words, it’s operators misunderstanding the standards and equivalencies, and that speaks possibly to the education they get prior to stepping up to the console.

@DaveRat Год назад

Agreed. Digital boards look like and often try and feel like analog and meters often look similar but the way they are used should be quite different to achieve desirable results. Knowledge of what should happen vs logic of what looks like is happening vs what actually happens are a bit messy. And from watching and hearing numerous engineers and shows, there is a clear disconnect between what should be done and what is often being done on both analog and digital consoles. With the issues being exasperated by the confusion and unforgiving nature of digital overload.

@gregorykusiak5424 Год назад

@@DaveRat maybe we should be writing the 10 Audio Commandments: Thou shalt not clip, thou shalt leave 20dB headroom…

@DaveRat Год назад

Ha! I am trying! Doing these vids to illuminate and that's a good plan

@gregorykusiak5424 Год назад

@@DaveRat you’re in a unique position to be able to do so; show why the commandments should stand/be adhered to. The first one I mentioned in a unity gain system would be harmful at every place in the signal path, and for bar/club mixing, that can extend to a musician’s ears more readily than ever before. (For instance)

@joesalyers 2 года назад

I worked with a Midas Legends 3000 in my studio for years until an unfortunate storm took it out of commission, at the time I wanted a Heritage 3000 but I was given a better deal on a Legend desk that was a showroom model in a music store. I have been searching for the right size Heritage 2000 or 3000 for my studio I need at least a 48 but I really want 56!! I think you would really like an FPGA mixer since it is a different type of processing compared to a DSP based mixer. The big issue is phase coherency with DSP based mixers, they just are not end to end phase coherent but this has been solved with FPGA mixers and I can say that difference between the QU mixers from Allen & Heath which are DSP based and the SQ mixers which are FPGA are night and day. The SQ mixers are phase coherent. The QU mixers use an ARM DSP to process the audio, the SQ and larger Allen & Heaths use an FPGA to process the audio. One of the Engineers from Allen & Heath wrote and article on why this is a superior way process audio since it can keep the signal intact without phase shift and FPGAs have lower latency sub 0.7 Milliseconds end to end, with no need for delay compensation the same way a DSP based mixer needs to be. I would link the article here but RU-vid will delete my comment if it has a link so here is the title of the article by Jeff Hawley it's called "FROM DSP TO FPGA: A Digital Audio Signal Processing Revolution". It is a good read and sheds some light on why digital mixers have sounded they was they do for so long, and what is next when it comes to FPGA based consoles!! Great video as always Dave!!!

@eflizotte 2 года назад

This is great investigation. I have really enjoyed my time on AH desks but one complaint I have is the lack of meter scale info on their products…. Colors are nice but I’d rather see segmentation and numerical values when I’m looking at the meters… I also feel like I’ve had instances where sources were audibly breaking up on an SQ before the meters told me they were… could be a verity of other factors. But regardless, if I’m on an AH desk, I’ve tried to make sure I’m not running them super hot but instead making sure I have the PA headroom or IEM transmit headroom etc

@DaveRat 2 месяца назад

Agreed

@StatesboroDuaneTribute Год назад

Dave it would be very interesting to demonstrate clipping a digital console vs over modulating an analog console at varying degrees. Really enjoying your videos thanks!

@DaveRat Год назад

I feel like I have done a video down that line. Maybe search "clipping" for vids on my channel. I do remember doing audible clipping vids. I thought I did one where I nulled clean vs clip on digital vs analog.

@StatesboroDuaneTribute Год назад

@@DaveRat oh great thanks for the reply. I’m brand new to your channel and vids so I’ll have a look at all of them soon enough. Good stuff thanks again!

@DaveRat Год назад

👍🤙👍

@TheRealCalijokes01 9 месяцев назад

That’s actually what I was waiting for thinking this was about I wanted to see him hurricane both lol

@EdPin_ 2 года назад

Thank you, Guru :-)

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍

@FasaFeu 2 года назад

thank you, Dave +

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍

@MrBrunoRenee 2 года назад

Thanks!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍

@sionjones1675 Год назад

I really like these console comparissons you've got, between the M/X32, Yamahas, A+H and so on. It's good to see the really geeky nitty-gritty differences. If you have the means to do so, I'd love to see how some of these compare to the big boys (Yamaha Rivage, Digico SD5/quantum, Midas Heritage HD96 for example) in terms of noise floor, overload handling, delay propogation - just to see what does and does not improve as you go up the ranks.

@DaveRat 8 месяцев назад

👍🤙🎛️

@dustyrhoads66 9 месяцев назад

I mixed in a Black Lion Audio modfied x rack not too long ago i think they just did their standard deal they do on most things but i have to say the headroom was definitely improved as as the tightness of the low end on my mix. I felt as though i could work in that top range of the Meters with better clarity.

@DaveRat 8 месяцев назад

Interesting

@fabiann6851 2 года назад

Thanks for these videos Dave!. When I mix on my x32 I always try to keep signals at -20 -15dbs I feel it sounds more pleasant to me, also trying to avoid the bottleneck in the bus master. Am I wrong?

@DaveRat 2 года назад

That's all good, the worst sound comes from overload and running low levels is all good

@daavneeq 2 года назад

Same thing happens in the daw world, anything over -18db and you’re risking clipping, even though meters will say otherwise. Digital DJ mixers also, absolutely essential to stay ‘in the greens’. Amps and audio interfaces too. Love your content Dave. I’ve spent the last 10yrs building up (and paying off) a sound system. I had planned on using it for hire work, but then the opportunity arose to install it in a venue. The guys at the venue have bought a qu16 and I’ve only ever used analog boards (been into music tech for 25yrs, weekend warrior/ hobbyist mainly) so your info is worth its weight in gold. Thank you.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Thank you Dave!

@Motorman2112 2 года назад

It really depends what your meters are actually measuring, and what their ballistics are. If it's showing you the peak value with zero lag then 0dBFS is 0dBFS and it's not going to clip until it tries to exceed that. If it's an RMS meter then you could have a 20dB or more difference between that and the peak value.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Well, these tests were mainly sine wave so do ballistics matter. Meter should read signal level, right?

@Motorman2112 2 года назад

@@DaveRat Not in this test, I'm referring more to the original comment about real world usage in DAWs or DJ mixers, and the idea that you can be clipping when the meters say you're not. In this case it's the opposite as we've seen these consoles giving early indications of clipping rather than late. Slow and/or RMS meters are where I can see the original comment being true, though in most cases I believe the clipping indicator is independent. I remember the first time I used a Mixwizard coming from Soundcraft I was seeing much lower levels than I was used to, because it was giving more of an average, so in turn I was driving it harder.

@daavneeq 2 года назад

@@Motorman2112 later Pioneer DJ mixers are terrible for it. The daw comment is the reason why many producers use vu meter plug ins to help with tracking and mix downs. Where music dynamics come into play, not just test tones, it’s always better to leave plenty head room in the digital word, as I’m sure you know, it’s the way I work anyway. I studied music tech at college 20yrs ago for 4yrs, we had a Mackie d8b in one studio and a Yamaha 02R (I think) in another, one of our tutors was oldskool, (had worked with Hendrix, amongst others, great guy) he always taught us to stay well away from clipping, even the odd peak in digital gear. It always stuck with me, even though the gear has come a long way. I wouldn’t even drive this qu16 into the reds even with this knowledge, I’d rather get a bit extra gain from the speaker processor, if needed. Who knows, if Dave tried this test with 20 different qu’s, would they all even be calibrated the same from the factory? I’d put money on some pretty wild variables.

@jameslawford4057 Год назад

First gig I did on an SQ-5, lead singer clipped the pre-amp most songs - they only gave me 50% in the sound check and it was the first time mixing this band. Didn't hear any bad stuff, didn't want to mess up gain as mixing monitors from FOH too. It shows the console experience of A&H that they run the metering like this in an analogue-type kind of way.

@DaveRat Год назад

🤙👍🤙

@bendowd5354 3 месяца назад

I wholeheartedly believe that as great as digital mixers are, people find themselves way easily overprocessing their channels and it creates a really muddy, dull, uninspiring mix. I try to start with good analog fundamentals, good gain structure, faders at unity, minimal and subtractive EQ, and really only start delving into the digital processing when it truly needs it.

@DaveRat 2 месяца назад

Agreed

@keith7863 2 года назад

You hit a very key point at the end. EQ. You might remember me, old analogue guy gone digital. I've been running an x32 for several years at my Venue. The EQ was a hurdle to get use to it. If you want to jump down the rabbit hole?? A comparison test between the x32 channel EQ to an analogue EQ. This might reveal some surprises. My experience with the x32 is that minor adjustments are, as you said, doing very little. Now I am much more aggressive and get a much better sound. Fuller, warmer etc. Just a thought. Good info as always, thanks again Dave!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Cool and good idea. I will ponder a way to test and demo that

@TheAT5000 Год назад

We recently changed from an analogue to a digital console, and now I FINALLY get to teach the correct way to do gain staging. Before they were doing the fader at unity and gain is the volume knob method. We are using a Presonus Studio live 32S series 3 mixer now, and I have moved from a guitar player to the sound tech teacher. Coming from a guitar background where I play digital amps, the method of anything over 0db starting to square wave makes perfect sense. Without any training, I started teaching people to aim to gain the signal to -12db average. Leaving enough headroom to not distort on the peaks. Soon I'll be teaching compression and EQ. So I find myself watching lots of recording engineers teaching, because I've been a mix engineer for all of 5 days at this point... I appreciate what you do, Thank you!

@DaveRat Год назад

👍🤙👍

@zambotv8150 2 года назад

I was the house tech in a few venues in Glasgow. What I noticed when the digital; consoles started appearing all those years ago was, The longer a band was on the road the more processed the mix got. Bored sound engineers appeared to fill their downtime with adding more and more sauce to their mixes unfortunately, some of them got to a point the mixes were so over processed there was little or no dynamics left

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Agreed and unfortunate but true

@jimpemberton 2 года назад

As post-processing has becoming increasingly available to people at home, I've seen techniques once found only in the recording studio being used more and more for FOH. Audio equipment makers see the demand for this and all the extra on-board processing is a selling point. "You too can make your FOH sound like a recording studio." One example is parallel compression. I remember not too long ago a buddy of mine explaining how I can use parallel compression on FOH for various applications. On my older digital board, I need to take up two channels to achieve this unless I set a group where the same parallel settings work and run everything through that that I want to run in parallel. Today, many new boards have parallel compression natively in-channel. I still firmly hold that the best groups don't need much processing either in the studio or on stage. You don't have to make them sound good because they already sound good. You mostly just need to amplify all that goodness.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍

@zambotv8150 2 года назад

@@jimpemberton When I worked PA's back in the day we used to see lots and lots of studio kit at FOH.... Good gear is good gear if an engineer spec-ed something we put it in the drive rack for them.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍

@Marco.SalaMessom Год назад

Good 👍

@DaveRat Год назад

👍🤙👍

@Marco.SalaMessom Год назад

One of these days i'd like to meet you personally, Hi there, from Brasil!!!

@johnschalk1271 2 года назад

Dave, did you try hitting the PFL button on the QU's input channel as it was peaking? I'm curious to know if the main meter would show the extra headroom or if it would register the true value e.g. red at ~+21dB? I think I prefer the X/M 32s input metering given that "red is dead" on most digital consoles and processors. I'm really enjoying this series and it's helped me to set a better gain structure when I'm mixing on a X/M 32. Thanks for taking the time to create such great content also for sharing your many years of audio industry experience with us.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

When I get the QU back, will give it a look

@annegeleynse8295 2 года назад

What software version of the x32 are you running? I noticed with version 4.x that the solo meter is not showing the same level as the indicator above the fader. Like when the channel indicator shows clipping, the solo meter shows something like -18dB. (I think that changed with a software version, but don't have the possibility to verify that)

@DaveRat 2 года назад

I had the latest version as of the time the vid was filmed in late 2021

@ZachSwena 2 года назад

I just got a couple Soundcraft SI performers for the broadcast venue I manage. It has some interesting things with regard to clipping also. The mic inputs and gains are also very different. I can use about 5dB less gain on the SI performer compared to the QU-32 for the same Audio Technica mics. The bad high frequency noise at high gain I was getting from those mics doesn't show up until about 50db gain on the performer compared to about 35 db gain on the QU-32... Definitely some fascinating stuff. I look forward to hearing the tests on the Digico board.

@ZachSwena 2 года назад

One curious thing was that I had to turn the trim on a blackmagic SDI to HDMI converter that was supplying AES audio from the computer by about 2-4 dB. A youtube video I use for testing is mixed with peaks at 0dBfs and it was clipping the AES input on the SI performer until I turned the trim on the audio extractor down...

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Interesting. So many variable

@ZachSwena 2 года назад

@@DaveRat Definitely, unfortunately I don't have the tools to isolate them enough to figure out why. I think it might have to do with some sort of true peak clip detection going on in the Performer as it is truly a hot track and the clip light seems to be fairly accurate.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍

@Enonymouse_ 4 месяца назад

A lot of professionals i've seen comment about the excellent quality of the pre-amps on the A&H boards, most of their lineup all share common components.

@jamesyouens4381 Год назад

I’ve always had the -18dbfs as the 0dbu (giving you the +4dbu for peak levels at -12) equivalent in my approach when using digital consoles. Gain staging and conversion factors should be any sound engineers rule of thumb reference points

@DaveRat Год назад

Agreed

@sea-ferring Год назад

I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of the preamps and overall audio performance of a Behringer Wing to an M32. Additionally the preamps on one or more of the Midas stage boxes. They are all advertised as Midas preamps, but we know that (these days) not all Midas branded preamps are created equal.

@DaveRat 2 месяца назад

I will ponder that.

@TheMessiah91 9 месяцев назад

I still run all analog rack with analog mixer with a Small passive Peavey PA. I don't ask for any more it sounds great.

@erickcrumb9115 2 года назад

Hey there Dave! Erick here. Long time listener, first time caller ;) Interested if you have explored how bit depth affects the resolution of digital signals, particularly the detriment caused to lower amplitudes which could contribute to the harshness of digital consoles. Since at lower volumes there are less bits to measure and replicate the changes in amplitude this could create harmonic distortions, possibly even at specific intervals, that could stack up in the mix. I’m also curious if you believe top of the line models by these manufacturers, such as the DLive and Pro Series consoles, introduce any kind of digital soft limiting to help prevent audible clipping and offer a more analog feel/sound/response? Also curious if something along the Rivage caliber of consoles would present such features. It’s fun to chime in on the mix! Really appreciate all the great advice, in-depth unbiased gear analysis, countless years of amazing dedicated work, and a lifetime of being a fantastic human! Looking forward to what’s to come!!!🤘🤘

@DaveRat 2 месяца назад

Thank you and I don't know for sure which consoles if any have soft limiting. I've heard people talk about it but I haven't tested and proven it to myself or found somebody that claims it. As far as the harshness of digital I attribute part of that to the fact that digital tends to make whatever problem there is exactly the same on every channel identical. Analog has no two channels that sound exactly the same most light variations and differentials that I think soften the issues. But I see the primary issue with digital consoles is that people overload them and don't expect harsh consequences. You really really really need to run them well below limiting well below clipping to avoid bat sounding distortion. But when you do that you don't get that soft overload sound which adds warmth and take some of the edge off. So did digital kind of leaves you with either that sounding distortion or way too clean. Analog allows you to find somewhere in between those two and get a warmer more organic sound

@jjinplaya 4 месяца назад

Dave: What are your thoughts on the Yamaha TF series of digital mixers?

@FOHFILMS 6 месяцев назад

Now, I could be completely wrong, as I have not delved into the schematics... But I am pretty sure the way these digital consoles control preamp gain is actually with a digital potentiometer, not in DSP. If that's the case, it's very possible that the preamp clipping is actually an analog clip, and they likely build in some headroom in the ADC's so the preamp clips before the ADC goes full scale. Still though, best to avoid it anyway. EDIT: Also, notice how the clip is not a perfectly horizontal chop-off. If it was a digital clip, it would be completely brick-walled.

@DaveRat 6 месяцев назад

Most digital consoles do both. There is a digital control over the analog preamp gain that will gain up the the analog preamp and there is usually a digital trim that will add or reduce the levels. And to make things even more interesting, usually the two are also tied together such that turning the gain pot will add digital gain in .5db increments and once 2.5db of digital gain is added, the next click with add 3 DB of analog gain and drop the 2.5 digital gain back to 0. Then separately there is often a +/- 6 or 10db digital trim. The impact is that this constant change between analog and digital gain means the noise and way the console clips is not linearly constant with the gain pot

@FOHFILMS 6 месяцев назад

@@DaveRat that’s very true, I guess it depends on the console for the most part. Either way, the clipping shown in the video seemed analog in nature, so at least in that early stage of clipping, it isn’t digital

@DaveRat 6 месяцев назад

Yes, ish. To minimize noise and maximize headroom which can be limited, especially on lower cost digital consoles, the digital clip is usually set to occur at a level slightly above where analog clip occurs or not much higher. May 3db, or 6db at most. So anything beyond slight analog clip will often bring my in the digi clip bummer.

@FOHFILMS 6 месяцев назад

@@DaveRat Yeah, that's what I would have figured

@Edwin-van-der-Putten 2 года назад

The Behringer manual advices to get the peak levels of each channel in the -12/-16 dB.... so they tell you when using the mixer...

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Ha! And yes, the tests play out that the advice should be followed! We found the problems and the problem is us

@fvmurphy3071 2 года назад

Thanks for these deep dive videos on the X32. I’ve been using one of these boards for 8+ years, but I’m learning more about their performance limits from these experiments. With regard to the User Interface aspect of clip metering, and not personally having experience with large analog boards, it seems like the X32 approach is more useful and rational. If the Clip LED lights, it’s clipping! I’ve always treated it that way, and gain stage things accordingly. The analog red zone seems much squishier, where you don’t really know how much headroom is left.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

It's hard to say. Metering ballistics and peak signals create complications. I think never seeing a clip light and also having the clip come on early would be ideal to keep the mix clean

@vlastneme 2 года назад

@@DaveRat but you wont know unless you test on the allen case were the actual limit is . do you exclude the fact that the allen used this to give the impression that you can push in to the red as an analog input would be able to handle ? (im in the box but i find your vids and your mindset rly interesting and educating)

@damienlobb85 2 года назад

@@vlastneme I believe he showed where the A&H audibly started clipping, and it was around the same 22db as the X32.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

I did measure the outputs and show exactly where they clip vs meter readings

@Razeth 2 года назад

Interesting, I had a hunch the QUs ran a bit quieter. The QU line is targeted a lot more towards beginners, mostly churches, especially the qu-16. Makes me think its to warn before actual clipping, as an extra caution. I wonder if the same thing happens on the SQ series. Honestly I'm not sure what I prefer - actual clip light when its clipping, or clip light a few DB before. -6db is kind of excessive though. Maybe it should be configurable.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

The clip sound on the x32, m32 and QU all sound pretty undesirable in the tests I've done. Analog warm clip, sometimes good, digital trash clip, never good.

@spick1923 Год назад

I prefer the X32 approach as it's more inline with how I mix in a daw. I know people say oh you have 32 bit floating point etc, but I was trained to approach digital studio based on a peak of -18 to -12db as with the BBC standard. I came unstuck the first time I used a qu32, as I wasn't applying enough gain until I figured out at the end of the gig what you just demonstrated above I just think digital consoles should stick to peak and that although with the qu series A&H were trying to make it easier for people coming from analog. It's not analog it's digital. The meters on the X32/M32 are much more accurate I'm never in any doubt of my levels on any channel. Also I run a version of your Group compression setup on my M32 pretty easy, which is super sweet!

@DaveRat Год назад

Yeah it's confusing to know which way the boards are set up. Probably the biggest issue with digital mixing is engineers clipping or trying to mix like it's an analog board Mixing too low on a QU will not be a very big issue whereas mixing too hot on an x32 will be a huge issue

@spick1923 Год назад

@@DaveRat Yea, I came to the same conclusions. Thanks for all the advice over the years Dave! You really helped me get though my essays on my live sound degree about 10 years ago! I'd have struggled without your methods of explanation! I always link people to your videos when they're just starting out (and beyond) in live sound, such a great resource! Much appreciated

@DaveRat Год назад

So cool and thank you!

@EricTumbleson 2 года назад

Great video! SQ 5 seems like it may be a better comparison. I just picked one up yesterday for a client. I really like it. I’m not specifying Behringer/Midas anymore. The cost difference isn’t enough to matter given how terrible things are with Music Group right now. Just try and get a replacement PSU for any of their desks…

@DaveRat 2 года назад

There are so many desks out there, I carefully select what I will test by looking around at what we have in the shop and will fit in my car

@dickonwhitehead1502 6 месяцев назад

🤣🤣🤣@@DaveRat

@ChrisGebhardMusic Год назад

So, can I straight up ask - which rack would you recommend- the AH QU SB 16, or the Midas MR 18?

@DaveRat Год назад

That's a good question. Based on testing, the Midas performs better but relies on the engineer running lower metering levels, the AH is more noisy and less featured, better built and allows engineers to run hotter levels with less overload. So for engineers with self control and knowledge, the Midas, for engineers who want to mix on digital but treat it more like an analog board and drive it hard, the AH

@Mdjagg 10 месяцев назад

I want to mix every show like Dave is in the audience judging me!

@stevierabone4875 2 года назад

Thank you Dave.... QU16 user in Australia here. On input channel using PFL & reading output meters for level. Any idea at what level we are heading into distortion ?? thank you kind regards Stevie.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

On the input I think it's +6, on the output I believe it's 0

@stevierabone4875 2 года назад

@@DaveRat thank you

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍👍👍

@magoostus 2 года назад

ive always preferred the peak metering of the x32 over the slower metering time on A&H mixers. i feel like I cant trust the input meter on the A&H

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍

@isettech 2 года назад

I have in the past in analog used a scope to monitor levels to see the waveform and know the clip level. Was important when adding lots of EQ in some rooms with bad acoustics. I could see peaks into clipping on the scope until I trained my ear to hear it, then I could adjust and keep peaks below clipping so it was seen before it actually could clip. 2 channel low frequency scopes are pretty inexpensive today with them often under $200.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

I toured with a scope for a while to do a similar monitoring. Good stuff

@rolandtiiroja 2 года назад

Often when people use analog boards, they push them up pretty loud. Meaning the amp levels are relatively low. But when you come in with a digital mixer with the same amp setting then it's too quiet. When you try to push digital mixer to compensate the low amp levels, you get the thin sound. So, you gotta find the amps and crank them up. And wish that the satellites above the ceiling are not active ones.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Or get a digital board with loads of output level

@isettech 2 года назад

Most consoles use + and - 15 volt supplies for the analog op amps for both the input and outputs. The Op Amps generally clip between 10 volts and 13 volts depending on the chip manufacture. You can see this on your scope. This is true for both analog and digital consoles, except the digital consoles have the peak voltage set with digital clipping near the clip level of the analog components. When digital hits the absolute 11111 or 0000 max and minimum peaks, there is no more. In analog, due to the clipping in the op amps, the clip levels may differ in the + and - directions, so the sound is a little different in clipping at the threshold. An op amp may for example clip at 11 volts positive and -14 volts on negative peaks. I should drag out my scope and measure the -0 DB peak levels of the digital consoles. With -18 DB as the analog 0 point, the math should have all digital consoles clip at the same voltage where the A/D reaches the limit of the numbers. I can't see anyone making a digital console where the analog clips prior to the digital max values, so clip on digital consoles should be almost identical from a math standpoint. David, Please find the peak value of clipping on a digital console. Highly suspect it is somewhere between 10 and 13 volts peaks positive and negative, or 20 to 26 volts Peak to Peak.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

I think I covered that in this vid ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-32NpliojUbg.html

@EcBaPr 2 года назад

i feel like the metering calibration is something users should be able change in the boards global settings.. have two options.. analog or digital style metering ? its just threshold for showing a red light..

@DaveRat 2 года назад

That would be helpful assuming people actually pay attention to how it is set. That said, if people pay attention to how it is set, then they would know that the clip on an m or x 32 channel is vastly different than the clip on the QU and analog, which does not seem to be the case

@minigpracing3068 Месяц назад

I have a lot of problems with legacy operators and digital signals, and what levels are correct. I keep losing that battle and try to find a balance between what they think, and where it distorts.

@DaveRat Месяц назад

Yes. And same

@Dante-qf9yd Год назад

I was looking at the Allen and Heath qu24, Presonus 32SX and the SSL Big Six. Right now I’m paying on the SSL, but with that, I would have to buy more outboard gear, if I got the Presonus, I wouldn’t have to buy anything. But I’m not sure if the digital mixer is going to sound good as the analog SSL. The SSL is 4HZ to 100KHZ and the digital ones are 20HZ to 20KHZ. And I’m thinking about the sonic quality of a live show, also if I record a band. This video was great.

@DaveRat Год назад

Tough choices!

@dusanOravec 2 года назад

I don´t know about QU, but I know at SQ ( I got SQ 7 ) you can set a Orange or Red diod on a Channel as you like few dB more or less , but I never used it just read it in the Manual.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Interesting, yes, I just tested the console as it was set by the factory

@marshpw 7 месяцев назад

I noticed some of these consoles seemed to show red way before it actually felt like the level was actually clipping (same with the SI stuff).

@marshpw 7 месяцев назад

This was handy to figure out because if i needed a little more gain out of say (the kick) for some reason, I knew i could use the output of the compressor to basically retrim the signal and I noticed I could get a little more out of the master without the channel showing red. You might wonder why i'm running it so hot... but so many clubs and crazy shows and just learning. Hopefully most of us get the chance to use the stuff that has enough power and you're not even close to red!

@NealMiskinMusic 2 года назад

I prefer to Qu over the x32 personally, it's mostly a matter of workflow. The screen layout, how the knobs are positioned, the fact that the designers just assumed you would probably want a graphic EQ available on every output without having to specifically assign it. The x32 technically does a lot more, but because of that complexity there is a bit more configuration you have to do to get it set up the way you want it. I just wish the Qu series had a digital scribble strip, and colour coding, that's about the most important small detail for me. The brain recognizes colour faster than it reads text, so if my drum tracks are always red my guitars always yellow etc. I can navigate very quickly even with multiple layers.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍

@TheGarageBandSyndicate 2 месяца назад

Allen must have headroom designed into it for studio people. Behenger looks more specific to live sound.

@DaveRat 2 месяца назад

Perhaps. My take is console manufacturers are faced with a choice Make the metering accurate Or Make the metering similar to analog and reduce people ruining the sound of the show that think it's ok to clip digital

@jdeglers 2 года назад

Can you review the Soundcraft consoles like this? I have an Si Impact that I really enjoy using but do not have the gear to test it like this. Also, excellent series of videos! I loved the take-apart videos!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Thank you, I don't currently have a sound craft to test but I come across one, I may do

@tshortvideo8365 2 года назад

Right when you switch from the X32 to the QU16... quite the latency difference!

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Yes!

@damienlobb85 2 года назад

Hmm?

@DaveRat 2 года назад

I have not watched the video in a while and don't remember exactly how I did the switching but I do recall that it was disorienting switching between the two with music playing and I did tests running one console in each ear of headphones and then adding delay to the x32 to time align and make up for the added QU latency. It was extremely audible but that is to be expected as humans can hear 1/10 of a ms time offsets without much difficulty, especially in headphones

@edwinrivera3118 Год назад

question for everyone here. I am debating between the Soundcraft SI Impact 40 channel and the Allen & Heath QU32. I am an Allen & Health guy using the ZED series, love it, but our church needs a new mixer and they are using a Behringer XR18 and want another digital board. I prefer Soundcraft and Allen & Heatlh, so I dont want to recommend the X32. I just don't think the quality is the same and seems more complicated for everyone. So, what do you prefer the Soundcraft or the Allen & Health in this scenario.

@karstenpe 2 года назад

There are a lot of reasons why shows today sound different than in the analog days. Perhaps digital sounds worse. But now you also have comps on all channels, so you tend to use them. The visual representation of what you are doing with your channel EQ and main mix EQ also have a lot to do with it. Even though your ears tell you diffenrently you (and I'm definately including myself here) often look at the graphics and say - "that cant be right". I know that I definately mix with my eyes as well. For a long time I have been hoping for the option of turning the graphic representation of my EQ curve off on my QL5 desk. Would be fun to have a listen the desks instead of just meassuring them. I had a great epiphany when I listened to a simple CD track through an X32 and my QL5. Both gained equally and afterwards normalized in Audacity. Surprised at how bad the X32 sounded compared to my QL5. The QL5 costs around 5 times as much as a X32, so there should be a difference.

@karstenpe 2 года назад

And to be honest, PA systems have also changed character today. I don't know if it is less distortion in the drivers or whatever. But sometimes when I get to do a gig on older speakers, I have a big smile on my face. They seem to have more body or fullness, more "umph" - don't really know how to describe it. I have some d&b gear. And they definately changed the way they voice their products. My older Q sounds different than my newer V-series.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍

@mejesusuyouape Год назад

I think the some of problems lies in the marketing on the x32. When it first came out the big sales point was it uses Midas preamps, so I thought that you could push the peaks but it of course sounded horrible. That made me steer away from “cheap” consoles. Mainly used Soundcraft Vi consoles digitally and a whole range of anaIog consoles. I have used Soundcraft SI mixers and got great mixes out of them, but I treated the signaling different and tried to prevent clipping at all cost. But I would like to see how a big expensive mixer would behave on the same test. Could you push them further like an analog console?

@DaveRat Год назад

In my opinion the issue is based on the fact that clipping looks the same on a digital console versus an analog console but the impact of clipping his catastrophic on a digital console and minimal on an analog console. So having the exact same indication type for clipping yet completely different results when things clip creates the foundation for the ongoing issue. Various manufacturers have taken different steps to mitigate the issue. Some offer the ability to have the clip light come on early, some have that built in, and some incorporate limiting circuits that mimic the way analog consoles to distort. All of which further complicates the understanding and reinforces the fact that engineers should know their gear, where it's limitations are, and what happens if you exceed those limitations

@solitaire5142 Год назад

Whats with all the phase shift? Both consoles exhibit some but the AH seems like it has 90 degree`s of lag. Are any filters engaged?

@DaveRat Год назад

No filters engaged

@solitaire5142 Год назад

@@DaveRat Differences in latency perhaps?

@DaveRat Год назад

AH is like double the latency of the x32

@TylerDarlington 2 года назад

Only caveat is that if you use a signal from a computer to the console via usb, on the input channel config is usb, and the sine wave signal from the computer is 0dbfs, the X32 will show the channel is clipping though it is not. Is this your experience as well?

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Interesting

@Motorman2112 2 года назад

If it's 0dBFS then there's no way for the console to distinguish this from clipping. An actual clipped signal would have the same peak level. For all it knows, the signal may have "wanted" to go higher than that.

@BojanBojovic Год назад

I believe that the operator should know the system it has at his hands, analog or digital. If the operator does not understand the difference then nothing can save him from doing a bad job. But, in digital domain 0 dbfs should be used as a limit, it is much more intuitive than having some buffer zone to take care of you. Of course this is a personal preference, but driving digital in red zone is not sensical, and the operator should know that.

@DaveRat Год назад

One aspect is one can not do a direct comparison between metering of digital vs analog. Yes we can correlate clipping but the ramifications of clipping are not the same. Analog clip is not a big deal whole digital clip is terrible. One could argue that metering that keeps us farther from terrible is more important than accurately knowing when clip is.

@drummerdonniedotcom 8 месяцев назад

Great video. Personally, I prefer LED accuracy over the distant-early-warning of the U16. RARELY have I been caught off guard with clipping a channel. It usually happens first song because, as I'm sure you're aware, sometimes musicians don't give you accurate levels at sound check (actually line check most of the time). I usually set the attenuator very conservatively, leaving a good amount of head room for such scenarios. But every once in a while a musician will catch me off guard giving me 6 or 8dB more signal during the actual performance over and above line check (I rarely get sound checks in club settings). As you can imagine, I address the clipping immediately. . You caught my attention with your opening assertion that you stopped mixing when the world went digital. I hear ya. I still love mixing analog and have held onto two of my analog consoles. I have to say that I really like the digital stage boxes, as running an audio snake has always been a problem for gigs like weddings and clubs, etc. The aesthetic of a large, thick cable always puts clients off. Now I just run an Ethercon cable...which is a real pleasure in comparison. . Anyway....great videos. I'm a huge fan. Keep up the great work.

@DaveRat 8 месяцев назад

🤙👍👍

@damienlobb85 2 года назад

So they both have the same headroom thereabouts, but the A&H warns you sooner about potential clipping... Interesting indeed.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

🤙🤙🤙

@noelhynek955 2 года назад

The A&H Sq and dLive platforms are awesome to use and in my option the closest to feeling like an analog console. That being said I got to work on lots of analog consoles, I cut my teeth on a TAC scorpion, and there is some magic that digital just cannot current do

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Yeah, the feeling of dealing with these digital consoles lacks the luster of the analog " touch the actual control, see everything always" adventure

@NHndrsn1234 Год назад

How about a M32/X32 using a Midas DL251? 48k of coarse is what we are limited to

@ww6156 Год назад

I can understand both schools of thought. The x32 is showing you exactly where the clip is so don't get greedy, whereas the a+h is giving us a bit of a slap on the wrist early... I do love my qu16 though for it's simply workflow, as a teacher it's a great beginner console for my students

@VolkerJSchmidt 2 года назад

There are of course many digital consoles that would deserve your testing, my favorite test subject would be the Allen & Heath Avantis. Possible? :)

@DaveRat 2 года назад

We don't own any and not sure how much longer my digi board test adventure will last. Mainly I hope that I am showing people how to test and what some of the potential issues to test for are. Too many boards for me to test but all the tests I do use cheap or readily available gear so everyone can do them

@yoloyolo1832 2 месяца назад

Behringer Wing vs SQ5 please!!

@DaveRat 2 месяца назад

I will ponder that. I don't like doing comparisons that much unless there's some sort of big debate over them or an industry-wide misunderstanding they could use some clearing up. Give me something controversial to unravel!

@LstrO42 Год назад

Funny how having to go through the evolving of digital when you couldn't get anywhere near peak without dire stress can groom you for today's market. Being a part of a few groups where people post covers is eye opening how many can't seem to rtfm. Yamaha probably owes me royalties for how many times I've suggested the YSRH. Printing "mix with your ears" labels and placing them on all video monitors might help.... probably not 😂

@ConcertCultureSound Год назад

@dave rat Would you PLEASE do a video on the soundcraft UI24r? It does so much for a cheaper rack Mount mixer. I’d like to hear what you think about it, cuz I’ve always taken your advice as gospel truth :-)

@DaveRat Год назад

Oooh, I will ponder that. I try and cover subjects that are overlooked, misunderstood or hotly debated and leave the reviews and gear testing to the many people that make that their focus.

@jimpemberton 2 года назад

I'll say that ideally analog and digital mixing should be about the same. Key word on *should*. That is, you may have decisions to make based on the characteristics of your console that will differ, but in general the levels should be similar. What analog afforded is increased headroom without clipping. I've paid attention to mixing styles in my travels overseas and have noticed some audio techs pushing all the faders on their old analog boards to the top and getting red lights galore. And this was normal and acceptable where they were. I wouldn't call this in any way "ideal". If you have a general SPL goal for the venue, you'll want to have the amps carry that weight, not the level you are sending the amps. Good taste is that you have a perceptible SPL range that shapes a program, but is still within a range to be easily audible to the audience in general. So you don't want to be too soft. If you have that same range on stage, then you will end up compressing it to amplify it, not expanding it, because if you amplify a range, the range itself grows larger. Part of that compression is in the acoustics of the venue. But this means that you will have a range on your board not to exceed the level at which it clips. That means that you shouldn't be pushing the upper limit of the mixing console - ever. Get a good sound out of the mixer, even a good range of levels, but don't only add sound - subtract as well. Then let the amplifiers and speakers carry the amplification that you want, not the board.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

👍

@isettech 2 года назад

Something that is overlooked in the analog vs digital world is the number of analog amplifier stages that add noise at each active stage. In digital the analog portion is pre-amps, thus very important, A/D, and then D/A and output buffer. In analog every EQ, Mix Bus, etc is another noise source in the signal path. In digital all that is just math algorithms for EQ, Compression, Noise Gate, FX, etc, where in analog, each adds noise to the noise floor. Headroom is simply the space between signal and clipping. Dynamic range is the difference between signal level and the noise floor, and is measured as signal divided by noise. or S/N for short. The lower the headroom, due to higher signal, the lower the S/N or more dynamic range. You can run an analog board at 18 DB below clipping and thus run it at the same headroom. yes it is true that some, but not all, analog consoles may clip the op amps at a higher peak level than the hard digital minimum and maximum peak voltages, but you are talking about 1 to 2 DB of headroom gain in some analog consoles. Most consoles have + and - 15 volt supply rails, and the analog clips between 10 and 14 votls depending on the device. Some consoles, but not all use + and - 18 volt supplies instead, but they run hotter, and have a higher noise floor, so yes have higher headroom, but often less dynamic range. the engineering in both consoles is a series of compromises between noise, response, heat, and headroom.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Thank you! Good info

@KLRCAT 6 месяцев назад

"Operator Error". Amen Brother! Preach! I'm very much the same as you, grew up and learnt using analogue, but ultimately got my degree in Audio Engineering and started using digital (specifically X32). I had to re-train a bunch of engineers that kept running the gain into the red on the X32, had to explain proper gain staging and utilising dynamics (properly) to them.

@MarcelGavalier Год назад

Please ttest Waves LV1 with STG boxes exact this way please! Because i tried similiar thing and i do not understand the results! :/ Please.

@DaveRat Год назад

Hmmm, yeah probably not going to dive into waves as I like to test things 8n my realm of familiar knowledge. 5here are other people more experienced with waves than i

@MarcelGavalier Год назад

@@DaveRat i only need this comaprsion with osciloscope and your opinion to how metering works on lv1. If you have some time to do this i will glad to look at video. Take care

@DaveRat Год назад

But I don't own an LV1 and have never used one. Maybe someone else here will know. On the member side, there is a telegram chat where everyone helps each other out

@sonus289 7 месяцев назад

so my question is, which console is really worth it if you trust your ears if you need to go digital in the affordable realm vs the touring realm? Sofar im not t a pesonus fan.....

@gunjabeans Год назад

"User error" does not explain the thinness of the sound at a concert where a digital board is used. I worked at Universal Orlando City Walk (Live Music Venues) when they switched from all analog consoles with outboard gear, to Digital. At Bob Marley's - Tribute To Freedom, we switched from a Midas Venice with DBX comps, Klark Teknik Graphs, and Yamaha SPX 990 FX units; to a Yamaha M7 digital board. The Soul was immediately sucked out of the venue. Everything about the sound was worse: It became boxy, overall not as organic, Bass not as liquid, highs not as shimmery. I've been a huge fan of analog everything, ever since.

@DaveRat Год назад

Love analog and digital can sound good, but never if over driven or driven close to analog metering levels. It takes an annoying amount of care to keep digital sounding as good as sloppy analog

@gunjabeans Год назад

@@DaveRat I appreciate the videos you are making. Thank You.

@DaveRat Год назад

Thank you Robby!

@travishanson166 Год назад

The problem with digital is the signal sent to the output is missing pieces, how many pieces depends on the sampling rate. Everything occurring between samples is lost. Good to eliminate noise, but bad when mud is part of the dynamics or sound of the artist. Analog sends all that it hears, without fail. It's always listening.

@DaveRat Год назад

Hmmm, that not entirely correct and based on a myth I address in a video I did on digital stairstepping. Yes info is lost and the info that is lost are only frequencies above 1/2 the sample rate. Frequencies below 1/2 the sample rate are not lost. Yes there are issues with digital and personally prefer not converting if possible but it is not difficult to prove that digital can accurately capture audio below 1/2 the sample rate without losing info.

@travishanson166 Год назад

@@DaveRat good information. I will have to look for the video. Doing a Dave rat binge these last few days lol.

@DaveRat Год назад

Awesome and thank you for hanging out and commenting. Search digital stairstep and let me know what ya think

@travishanson166 Год назад

@@DaveRat will do thank you.

@DaveRat Год назад

👍👍👍

@getjjg 2 года назад

Can do this to a Presonus 64 mixing board,,,, Thank you.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Hmmm, mainly I am showing you all how to test so you all can do it to your boards of choice

@nejonstudio553 Год назад

Why didn't you compare X32 to the Allen and Heath QU32

@DaveRat Год назад

Because the QU32 does not fit in my car and the QU16 was closer in price though still more expensive than the x32.

@djtecthreat 10 дней назад

It's actually pretty hard to clip the x32 in practice if you're staged right and the rig is sized right. But then again there are plenty if amateurs out there.

@DaveRat 9 дней назад

Never underestimate the creativity and ability to figure out how to make things sound bad that humans can come up with

@uselessoldman7964 2 года назад

But does it really make any difference, the Behringer is actually accurate whilst some might argue the AH is a little too conservative playing heavily on the safe side? After watching many of your past x32 experiments and tests I have since tested mine against other interfaces I won and still really impressed and happy with it. People like to knock the x32 simply cos its Behringer, sad people in my option cos they really are a good deck with masses of flexibility and features.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Overloading digital consoles is extremely common and very audible. The x32 sounds worse clipping than the AH but ideally no one would ever clip them and then it does not matter. The issue is human

@uselessoldman7964 2 года назад

@@DaveRat agree but for what u get for the money try beating the Behringer?

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Well, for a pro rental company like I have, the Beringer is sub standard. The durability, lack of multiple types of output formats, the issues with 100 meter cable length, the poor customer support and the poor serviceability of a semi pro or consumer console, makes it a no go. That is not to say it is not useful or sounds bad. My home hifi is useful and sounds great but is not of the caliber to put out as a pro product. Digico send people out to our large gigs, have Madi, fiber and very robust and durable builds. And it's expensive bot for what we do, the cost is not an issue, we will pay top dollar for the highest quality gear. And also. The x32 is great, super powerful and very inexpensive and a great way for people that are on a budget or do not require the durability of a bulldozer and are good with a pickup truck. Having an inventory to mainaltain of 20 x32s sending out on your gives me nightmares just thinking about it.

@uselessoldman7964 2 года назад

@@DaveRat It is a little unfair to compare Behringer X32 against something made by Digico. Your comparison is 100% accurate no one in their right mind who runs a Pro Rental Company would consider the Behringer X32 and probably not even the Midas variant either, they are toys in comparison to Digico.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

True and yet, the SD11 and QU16 are the only boards in our rental inventory that fit in my car to compare to, and the QU is just a utility mixer leaving the SD11 as the closest thing we own to an X32/M32 That said, we are looking at expanding our AH console inventory from one to more than one

@izzzzzz6 2 месяца назад

Behringer always breaks down or falls to pieces. You Reap What You Sow Behringer!

@DaveRat 2 месяца назад

🔧👍🔧

@radomirblazik 6 месяцев назад

TLDR: run the M32 like an old Yamaha digital console, run the A+H like an old Yamaha analog console. By the way, on an old Neve 8232 you're running it cold unless you can hear all the analog needle meters in the meter bridge slamming the end stops over the loudspeakers. I've seen and heard it on my own .. big ouch... Raw Power anyone?

@phel21 Месяц назад

The claim that X32 and M32 behave the same is incorrect. There's a huge difference between the preamps in M32/DL16/DL32 and X32/S32/S16. The real Midas preamps saturate very much like analog because there is a lot more headroom in the converter-stage than what you find in the "Midas-inspired" preamps in the X32. This is also why many people use Midas stageboxes with X32-mixers as the digital processing in the mixers is exactly the same. This said, with proper gain-staging there is no audible difference in the end result. Keep all inputs in the -18 to -12dBm range, and the X32 works just fine. You can abuse any mixing console, even analog, and make it sound bad. The worst problem with digital consoles with fancy displays is that too many engineers mix with their eyes rather than their ears. Sampling-rate and resolution in signal handling produce detail way beyond what the human ear is able to register. The problem is not "digital is bad", but that certain features such as for example compression is abused resulting in a serious loss of dynamics.

@DaveRat Месяц назад

Did you watch the video I did where I took the M32 and X32 apart? The circuits are almost identical. They use different slightly better transistors in the M32 and capacitors with a narrower temperature range in the M32. Also if you look at the schematics, the circuits are nearly identical. I believe the only real sound difference is the noise floor is slightly higher on the X32ans output a bit higher in the M32 Overloading either the X32 or M32 results in the same digital distortion that I would recommend avoiding. From everything I have tested, the belief that the M32 has a better bad sound when over loaded that the bad sound of an x32 overloaded appears to be a myth

@Jefta1972 2 года назад

Hi Dave, I brought this up before: if you run several channels thrue a subgroup o the x32, the subgroup (bus), gets easealy over de 0 dbfs mark. But it seams not to distort. Could you confirm this? I beleive it has to do with the higher bitrate of the internal signal flow.

@NealMiskinMusic 2 года назад

I'm not sure about the X32 specifically, but most modern DAW software does use 32-bit float for all of its internal processing making it almost impossible to actually clip an internal bus (though certain, mostly older, plugins may clip while inserted on the bus).

@chickenfizz 2 года назад

yes, this is correct, 32bit float is essentially impossible to clip once the signal is digitised.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Interesting

@philiptong4978 2 года назад

40 bit floating point allows internal summing/processing to work with a very large numerical value, since the output is limited to 24 bit integer, I suspect an automatic attenuation (division?) must have been applied just before final output depending on numbers of channels routed to the bus 40 bit floating point max value = (2 − 2^ -32) × 2^(2^7 - 1) ≈ 3.402823669 × 10^38 same max value as 32 bit floating point but allows higher precision, because log(2^ -24) ≈ -7.22 log(2^ -32) ≈ -9.63

@DaveRat 2 года назад

All good stuff. I will focus real world results and how all of that impacts us and try and find Gremlins and oversights so we dont get pinched by assumptions and oversights

@ziofrenko Год назад

It's only a visual effect: On x32 you have 3 orange led before clip, and 6 led in total. It is enough to understand that you are give to much gain. On QU you only have 3 led in total. Of course the red must give the information way before the real clip. But make gain only with this poor meter is no good method. You have pfl/solo button to see better what happens.

@DaveRat Год назад

I am trying to help engineers understand

@ziofrenko Год назад

@@DaveRat you are making an incredible job. Thank you

@DaveRat Год назад

Thank you!

@TimKaseyMythHealer 2 года назад

You want to go deep into a Behringer X32 rabbit hole, discuss the connectivity with remote I-pads, and network cables. This is a never ending source of grief. Most how to videos don't know what they are saying, and leave you with nothing connected. It is complicated, and may result in constant manual IP entries. If you have an I-pad, you are in a world of hurt, the I-pad can't remember any of the previous settings, and it forces you to enter the IP addresses manually every time. Behringer doesn't even know about this. None of the how two connect I-pad to X32 videos know about this. Most people already have the unit connected, and they only reason they do is on account of having a separate laptop connected through to their wifi. This doesn't count, and is in no way how the real world works when you are out in a club, and just trying to connect an I-pad to the X32 (its impossible). Oh, but you will figure it out, only to have it disconnect because your I-pad can't remember the previous setting.

@DaveRat 2 года назад

Yuck, that's messy. My focus is more on the audio aspects. That sounds like an adventure best tackled by someone with field experience with the issue

@HiHo232 2 года назад

I have owned an X32 with an iPad since 2013. Not once have I ever had connection issues. It is basic networking. Sure, one needs to know about basic networking to get it working but the same could be said for so many things today since so many things rely on IP networks. If you're using a plain old access point (AP), and it sounds like you may be, then yes, you will need to manually input your IP address, subnet, etc. This is because an access point does not have a DHCP server to automatically assign IP addresses. I use an access point because it's what I have and I assigned the IP address to my console and manually set up the network in my iPad... like 9 years ago? I have NEVER had to touch it. Not once. I set everything up, connect the AP, power everything on, and my iPad connects. Every. Single. Time. Now, that iPad is used solely for that purpose and nothing else so maybe that makes a difference but I can't say for sure. If you want an easier setup you need to use a router. I you connect a router to the X32 and enable DHCP on the console then you should not need to do any manual IP configuration. Now DHCP can have its issues and it is still best practice to assign static IP's for the ultimate in reliability but for the most part DHCP works well.

@damienlobb85 2 года назад

I primsrily use Android devices running Mixing Station with my X32 and have used iPads, (more recently, also running Mixing Station, great piece of software!). I haven't had any connectivity issues outside of a cheap router failing on me.

@TimKaseyMythHealer 2 года назад

@@damienlobb85 I had a Network expert team view with me. He explained everything that wasn't covered in the RU-vid videos. Again, the RU-vid videos are not helpful. There is a protocol of connectivity, a 1, 2, 3... protocol of steps that need to be taken. The other factor is that I'm not an Apple user and the Network expert got into my I-pad remotely to make sure all the settings were correct. Setting up an I Pad with 5G is miles apart from how you would set up a PC and/or Laptop. Also, I bought the latest I Pad, and that didn't help, the RU-vid videos on connectivity were dealing with previous versions.