Michael Brown & Jim Osman LIVE Conversation - Cessationism & Spiritual Gifts 

I am a continuationist because i believe Scripture. However, I do believe one of the biggest problems that the charismatic camp has is they almost never call out all the foolishness and false teachers on the charismatic side.

I always feel like these debates miss the elephant in the room....which is...are the gifts that charismatics point to real or not? The ENTIRE point of SIGNS and WONDERS was to authenticate!! The Charismatic movement should, by definition, be self-authenticating. Are Sign Gifts for today? Well, where are the accurate prophecies? Where are the miraculous healings?...Has a single quadriplegic gottem out of a wheel chair? Has anyone actually spoken a human language they werent trained in? Has anyone made a specific, unmistakable prophecy? I think its a waste of time arguing over whether or not we think the Bible says gifts are for today, unless we are ready to admit that the so called signs and wonders supposedly going in regularly are never ever recorded. Its totally bizarre. It is SO disingenuous of Dr. Brown to always point to unverifiable miracles happening in "some small village" somehwere in the 3rd world. If Gifts are notmative than they should be going on all yhe time in the USA, but we mever do, do we?

You never find the Apostles announcing beforehand that they are going to hold a Healing Service in a few days' time. Why not? Because they never knew when it was going to happen. They did not decide, and it was not within their control. Martyn Lloyd-Jones (1899-1981)

I really pursued cessationism as Jim discusses it, but the belief was far too philosophical rather than scriptural. I had to finally admit, uncomfortably, that I was wrong about the nature of what prophesy was/is. It's not easy because of how many wacky people there are, but there's no doubt full scripture support for continuation with caution and a Bible seatbelt. Awesome discussion men.

Brown seems to purposefully ignore and even feign ignorance about the fact that the individuals he knows exaggerate the deceptive signs and wonders.

Michael Brown is clearly over speaking by far and not giving Jim opportunity to answer his many statements. Trying derail the conversation.

Hey Brother Nick (Moderator) quit cutting Dr Brown off, let the discussion breath just a little bit.

Lol awww man dr.brown lol doesn’t like Jim’s responses lol and can’t accept them lol so he rambles and rambles! Thanks guys for calling him out on that! He does this a lot to try and stomp or atleast look like he’s stumping his debate opponent . But enjoyed the conversation never the less. I am a continuist but Jim points make more sense to me. Just to see the people dr.brown connects him self with from Sid Roth and all the other hyper charismatic cooooks ! I’m good !

Cessationist: "You continuationists only talk about your experience"....... Also Cessationist: "I don't see it so it isn't true"......

Interesting discussion - some of Dr Brown's arguments resonated with me even though I currently hold to a cessionist view. The problem is that even if some of his arguments are based on Scripture, the vast majority of charismania is peddling in false prophesies, false healings and especially false tongues. The latter just does not line up with the description given in Acts 2 and it is practiced in a manner that in contrary to the commandment given in 1 Corinthians 14:26-28. I believe that prophesies on the personal level do still exist, where someone (not a "prophet") transmits a word to an individual which providentially orients them in the right direction. In church, the day before my previous wife died, she wrote something in her Bible that she said she wanted to shout out loud but she was too shy. I was shocked when I read it after her death. What she wrote has been of great comfort to me in my life : there was nothing doctrinally new in what she wrote, but it was pointing me to certain bibilical truths which should rule my life. On the other hand every single person I have seen who self-identifies as a prophet is a false prophet voicing their wishful thinkings. I've also witnessed a miraculous healing where a pastor mentioned "someone" with a knee injury and he then commanded her leg to heal in the name of Jesus. We know that person : she had a really serious knee injury requiring a splint and crutches to walk, but we saw the same person dancing for joy that same evening. I believe that pastor has or had the gift of healing, but it is not something that he could will to happen. He had to be moved by the Holy Spirit to call out the person and the healing. The healing was a message to that specific person on that specific day and it is not a gift where he could decide to walk into a hospital and start healing people. I have also seen other pastors presumptiously commanding healing which did not happen. I think most of these pastors are moved by compassion but they are creating false hope. Regarding the gift of speaking in tongues, I have never heard anything that corresponds to Acts 2. Also in certain congregations it seems that the majority have received this "gift" and nothing else which does not match the description given in 1 Corinthians 12. From what I have heard, I believe it is mostly learnt behaviour that people perform due to peer pressure and encouragement from the pastor. It would say that sometimes it is a genuine expression of emotion or gratitude, which would reflect a fruit of the Holy Spirit (for example joy) but not actual utterances from the Spirit. But why not just shout "Hallelujah!" ? What ever it is, it definitely does not edify the church as spiritual gifts are supposed to. I believe these miraculous spiritual gifts are not sign gifts that identify an apostle or a prophet so in that sense I am cessationist. Also I believe that the gift is not something the person possesses on a permanent basis, but it is something that they are empowered to do or say at a specific moment. Some people may receive the gift and be able to use it on several occasions according to how the Holy Spirit wills it. Perhaps this is the way all the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 are supposed to operate.

Great discussion!!! I believe Dr. Brown’s view is more biblically sound.

There was a noticeable lack of the defining of terms on both sides. As a result, no one could make any meaningful ground. For example, ‘prophecy’ kept being brought up but no one actually defined what prophecy is. The same goes for the definition of ‘apostle.’ To Dr. Brown’s credit, healing has never taken place at the will of those used to do it (except for Christ.) To his discredit, the same attitude that he has to obeying the “commands” of 1Cor. 12-14 1:12:41 should be applied to James. James says that the prayer of faith WILL heal the sick, yet we don’t see that happening EVERY TIME we pray. Is James somehow wrong? No one in their right mind would think that! So it must be that he meant something that isn’t obvious at fist glance. The fact that we don’t see the same FREQUENCY of miracles today gives us reason to be skeptical. The point isn’t whether or not miraculous gifts happen today; it’s whether or not they happen as we see them happen in the Bible.

It's often as if Brown doesn't even hear what Osman is saying--although I think it's more of a case that Brown doesn't like what he's hearing so he ignores it. How many times does Brown need to be told: Cessationists believe that God still performs miracles! That is not the argument, yet Brown tries to make miracles his bedrock argument. So frustrating!

I am very disturbed by Browns’s defense of Sid Roth therefore I Mark and Avoid him.

It seems like there are spiritual cessationists and thoughtful charismatics. These two camps really seem to mostly agree, but their differences are in the finer details.

Great discussion. It's more apparent to me that Pastor Jim is more concerned with the "Charasmatic" movement that is seen on TV and online. Dr Brown is a great debater and great person to have these discussions with. The last 2 mins of the discussion in my opinion summed it up perfectly 🙏

I am a hypercharasmatic and now am a reformed continuationism but cautious. Great discussion by both of them. I respect both their views. Both me and my sister have similar discussions.

This debate only shows that doctrine of cessationism was never been taught in the Bible....

I am a Cessationist. I HAVE THE HIGHEST REVERENCE and HIGHEST VIEW of the HOLY SPIRIT! I know God works miracles daily. Every time someone is saved is a massive miracle. BUT having a low view of the HOLY spirit thinking he can be used as a stage prop to entertain the unregenerate at a whim by mere men is the most blasphemous thing ever!

Sadly this describes most charismatics, in that they love experiences more than Gods word which Peter calls a “more sure” testimony than miracles and experiences. 2 Pet 2:19 Matt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away.

Geez Dr Brown alludes the question with another fallacy. When the moderator asked about are there modern day healers, he quickly changes argument by asking the moderator if healing of limbs are recorded in Acts. That wasnt the issue. The issue is whether there are healers today and he has to qualify their legitimacy.

Not trying to bash Dr. Brown... But... He definitely talked way too much I heard his reasoning.. but I found it to be disingenuous. He seemed to duck Jim and his ONE question... Then he goes and rants for minutes and expects him to answer his Twenty questions.. I'm very disappointed by his demeanor in this video.. I fully disagree with him on a lot of essential issues, but I overall respect his demenaor and how he carries conversations. This was far from his best.

Then Dr. Brown, take Jim Osman with you to a few locations in the world and show him what you're saying. If you know of so much of this happening, then take Jim to some of those colleagues of yours you say have unusually high occasions of praying for and healing deaf people, and let him meet them, and spend time with them in their ministry capacity. Let him see what you say you keep seeing, sir. What is so hard about that?

I was raised in hyper chrastmatic and I thank God every day delivering me from that man centered theology.

Too be honest, if charismatics were right, it would be quite underwhelming. As Jim pointed out, why aren't people having their sight restored and dead bodies being raised? There's a host of children in hospital beds right now- why not exercise such healing powers on them? As I said, it would be very underwhelming if Michael Brown was correct. I'm with Jim on this.

9:54 this comment of saying not at the snap of a finger. Is very suspicious because thats exactly what is being taught worldwide by charismatics deriving from Pentecostals

This was an excellent discussion. I was a Charismatic but now have moved to Reformed. I am very grateful that the Lord brought me out of the manipulation of that movement. I appreciate Pastor Jim very much as I have seen him with Justin Peters on several occasions. A few take-always for me: Dr Brown continued to bring up that he uses the scripture alone? Does that imply that Pastor Jim does not? When Pastor Jim asked about whether prophecy was necessary Dr Brown replied that it was at which Pastor Jim replied regarding the sufficiency of scripture. This is a huge point for me. If the scripture is authoritative but is not enough then everything becomes subjective. One last point that seems unrelated but goes to a mind-set, I know that Dr Brown believes in woman Pastors. If I lock myself in a room with just the Bible and read 1Tim2:12, won’t I come away with the fact that woman are not permitted to teach or have authority over men? Just a thought. Also, what does Dr Brown imply about “going deeper” or “maturing” with respect to the exercise of gifts of healing? Did the Apostles have to mature and go deeper prior to performing the healings? Thank you all for posting this. Looking forward to seeing the full discussion with Justin and Sam Storms.

47:38 again stories and more stories. People come to faith in what????. Faith in the preacher ? Faith on themselves? Faith the the Gospel? Because the Gospel seems to be not the focal point.

Jim has great patience. Michael Brown was being pushy throughout that discussion and not giving Jim the chance to speak. He may say that is how his mind works but he was not gracious at all. Thankful for Jim's conviction to stick with what the Biblical narrative.

Dr. Brown kept going back to scripture. Jim kept going back to the cessationst talking points but didn’t back them with scripture.

Dr Brown is picking on straws when kept focusing on Jim mentioning apostolic. Jim was referring to the apostolic authority of the apostles. It is always mentioned in the introduction of every letter to the church.

Please make live chat 💬 available after the live has aired upon replays.

All the miraculous works that took place in scripture, we BELIEVE because they’re in the Scriptures. But what authoritates someone’s so called miraculous experience today? Why should anyone believe what they say?

Well presented from both sides. That said, it wouldn't be that hard to put this whole debate to rest. Just produce some evidence. It's unimaginable that there is never a cell phone on hand when these healings occur. Practically every charismatic church in the country has video capabilities. And then there's the troubling fact that the charismatic movement seems to produce an inordinate number of false teachers, prophets, and healers.

Dr Brown keeps saying “we don’t claim people can heal at will”…. But if that’s the case, then how can you defend mass deliverance conferences, sessions, etc…

The Apostolic age is defined as the age in which the apostles lived and ministered after Pentacost. What's important that we look at here is biblically what an apostle is. In other words, what separated the apostles from other believers? I can speak to 2 defining characteristics of 1st century apostles. First, they were handpicked/appointed by Jesus. Secondly, they were eyewitnesses of the resurrected Christ. The Apostolic age was the period of time following the ascension of Jesus in which the disciples of Jesus spread across the known world at that time preaching and proclaiming the gospel. These men had VERY SPECIFIC authority and DIRECT power from God to fulfill a very direct mission, and they were given supernatural power that "other believers" we're not given. In other words, they knew they had been anointed directly by Jesus and given that authority by the Holy Spirit. Cessationist are simply making the claim that the same DIRECT authority given to the apostles DID NOT exist with "every other believer" in the 1st century, nor does any believer today have that exact, direct, and confident authority. Put another way, I am a believer, but Paul was on a different level than I. I can't put myself on the same level as Paul or Peter. They had an anointing and were given gifts that I will never be given.

I know it’s not about a winner.. but clearly.. dr. Brown is scripture based.. other man’s got strong bias

Perhaps the debate is not have this or that gift ceased, perhaps the discussion should be how do we not idolize and abuse spiritual gifts. How do we protect the church from the liars and performers. That’s probably what we should be more focused on. I think MB & JO have a lot more in common than they care to admit. Great discussion. Humbling and makes one realize that we must be a lot more prayerful and spend a lot more time in scripture.

IMO, based on my reading of scripture and study…. God still does miracles today, God can speak to people directly. BUT, I think it’s rare… and 99% of what I see in the current Charismatic is clearly bogus, exaggerated, or straight up deceptive.

Good discussion. The hosts started out reigning Dr. Brown in, but as usual, Brown ended up insisting on his own narrative. Jim Osman did a great job of sticking with the Biblical narrative.

The Apostles said “Go”… ONCE and the demons IMMEDIATELY fled, because our Lord’s name is POWER! These “demon slayers” today (Pagani, Adams, Locke, Saldivar, etc) instead are like… “Go, Go, go, in the name of Jesus, in the mighty name of Christ, go, go, go, in His name go, out in Jesus name” … and on and on and on for like 30min… and THEN the “demon” flees…??? Apparently 50x is the magic number AND THEN the “demons” listen…? I’ve yet to see a single “demon slayer” today that operates like in Scripture…

Dr. Brown as always not really good at listening but tries to win the debate, instead of finding out the truth. Speaking of Cessationism, the gift of Apostles or signs of the apostles can't be ignored 2 Cor. 12:12, since this is the foundation of cessationism.

Way to stick to the word Jim. Good on the BibleDingers guys on moderating

Name one place, just one, where the Bible says these spiritual gifts ceased as of today? You cannot!

It seems these hyper-charismatics are perfectly ok with recording “demons” being casted out on camera, healing “mental illness” on camera, ok with baptizing people on camera, etc… but somehow they can’t seem to do a single verifiable “wonder” On camera. In the thousands of recorded mass deliverances and healings… not one. That doesn’t concern you…?? They even do “healings” on camera… but it’s always healings you can’t see (mental illness, pain, hearing, invisible disease, etc). Please pray for discernment if that doesn’t bring up any red flags to you… Jesus amd the apostles REGULARLY performed wonders and healings EVERYONE COULD SEE. The crowds did not have to just “take their word for it.”

I think it's simple. The (wacky) charismatics want glory for themselves, supposing that they have the authority to do supposed signs and wonders while the cessationists rely on God in continuous prayer, sometimes in their secret room, interceding and pleading with God and thus giving God all the glory acknowledging that apart from God, he can't even breathe, what more do a sign and a wonder.

1:09:20 very legit good question. "Yess,but....."some of my colleagues"??? There is claims all over charismania ... and he goes on ignoring the question can he please gives us names of healers "he knows"?

This was good. I appreciate Brown and Osman. I’m clearer on the cessationist position now.

The reason the Apostle Paul told Timothy to drink some wine for his illness, why didn't he just tell Timothy to go get someone with the gift of healing because the purpose of apostolic sign gifts were never meant to keep the Christian community in tip top shape again they were given during the beginning of the church to authenticate the true messengers of God..until the canon of scripture was complete...

I think Dr. Brown has the more biblically sound position. So much respect for these two brothers!

58:52. Ooof Jesus did it in one command he did it instantly. He shriveled a fig tree. He produced fish and loaves galore. Paul cast out demons from a lady who annoyed him instantly. Now, we just declare and decree and command God to do it Now. There's no asking or portioning God like we are told to pray

Much of Brown's argument focused on the sign gifts not being connected to the Apostles specifically, but being normative. In 2 Corinthians 12:12, Paul says in relation to himself "Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds." Jim missed an opportunity to show this, and Brown railroaded him after this.

Michael Brown on his show tends to cut people off or talk over them if he doesn't agree with them.

This was such a great debate. I feel like another four hours was needed 😂.

26:23 osman: do I need something outside of Scripture, DMB: of course...... DMB is close to heresy/if not heresy 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17, NASB)

33:08 The sun turned to darkness did happen. That language of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse is used MANY many times in the Old Testament and it is symbolic for God’s judgment. Here God is speaking of judgement on Babylon; “For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light.” ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭13‬:‭10‬ ‭ “The sun was darkened” when God brought judgment in AD70 just like Jesus said it would. He was not a false prophet. “Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭34‬ ‭

Cessationist pick and choose what gifts they are comfortable with. The assignment of Jesus Christ has never changed. The gifts of Holy Spirit have never ever ceased.

Dr Brown has an incredible depth of knowledge into Scripture. I hope one day to have just a fraction of that knowledge. Great debate overall among Christian brothers who disagree on the finer points of doctrine!

I respect Dr Brown very much… but the fact he stands behind guys like Pagani, Saldivar, Locke, Brian Adams, Benny Hinn… really are matters for concern.

I wish the Cessasionist guys would come on Remnant Radio.

Did Brown and Osman agree to stay away from some topics/names? It seems as if they were careful to stay away from the “Demon Slayers”, mass healing conferences, mass deliverance conferences, etc…

Dr Brown has asserted the NAR is a myth. The Cessationist movie clearly demonstrates the contrary. Js

38:03 This part is confusing… if you say “it was never on par with scripture” … then it’s really not prophesy. It’s just “advice” right?

As a partial preterist, it all works out. It began at Pentecost and ends at the end of the age, the old covenant age, when Christ returned to judge unbelieving Israel in the destruction of the temple in AD 70. The language of stars falling and the sun not shining is used in the same way in the Old Testament when God judges unbelieving nations.

Jim. “Paul was losing the gift of healing that’s why he couldn’t heal on command”… Dr brown - “what about Malta at the end of his life” Jim - well….i am not saying God can’t still heal 🤦‍♂️

I have worked in ministry to the blind for around 40 years as a visually impaired person myself and my wife who is totally blind. I can tell you here in all the years I worked there and have still connections with this ministry, not one blind person has ever been healed miraculously. Not even in it's almost 70 years of existence has there been any miracles either of sight gain without human intervention.

The gift of prophecy is in dispute I guess. To me it's speaking the word of God, which is the scripture. But if we define prophecy as a "a new word" from the Lord, then aren't we adding to scripture?? Which we are commanded to Not do?? A charismatic once told me that the Bible was too old and so God is giving a new word for us in this generation. So I then checked out her bethal temple in Sacramento CA. The service was all music, mostly chanting Om... Type music. Then an outburst of some "spiritual" tongue language just like Hindu and satanic groups do. It was all just a crazy show of everyone claiming how spiritual they are. This was her "new thing"?? It's an old satanic Hindu thing and shows no evidence of being anything very Jesus focused and truthful, or scriptually uplifting

Well Dr Browns point about locking someone alone with the Bible and they wouldn’t think the gifts have ceased is wrong. I was saved when I turned 33 and in the first 3 years after I spent almost every part of every day reading the word and drawing as close as I could and just did Bible study after Bible study. And about that 3rd year after being born again, (being baptized with the Holy Ghost) I heard someone speak in what I would call fake tongues and I was like what is that!!! I was smiling but there was a about 20 of us in a zoom call fellowshipping and I was like what is wrong with this guy. We were praying for someone to be healed. Then a lady spoke and started to interpret what he said. And she said God said the blood decease was being healed and she will be made whole. But she died a few days later. The days leading up to that I searched and searched for that in the Bible and never found it, then when I was told where to find it I was like that is not talking about jibberish. But I prayed and prayed to receive the gift of tongues if that was in deed it. But never got it. I did receive wisdom and learned that, that was false. Also I was under the impression the gifts being spoke about in acts where for the apostles only and those at that time. Because when I read the epistles, I learned what I was supposed to do and it was nothing like De Brown says. Then I asked the Lord for guidance and the Spirit lead me down the road of discernment and now I can see how much Satan is at war with the church and not the world because he already has them. But he deceives the weak members of the church and leads them to a false Jesus.

@59:00 He says as the Spirit wills... does that include the gift of prophecy? Does the Spirit will fallible, errant, not as reliable prophecy? Nope cause that would mean the Holy Spirit is fallible.

@ASKDrBrown Please share the healing videos and documentation.

Cessationism is basically the theology of I haven’t seen it so therefore I don’t believe it. Jim couldn’t point to a single scripture to back up his point. He inferred a lot of things, he guessed at a lot of things but could point to absolutely nothing. Cessationism makes for a dry and powerless church which is why the majority of churches in the 3rd world nations which are at the forefront of the Gospel are spirit filled churches.

faith for healing, is having faith that God can heal them, not that we have faith God will heal them

man... cessationism has great theologians making really bad arguments

I was born Roman Catholic and after 35 years in the Catholic Church and I was born again on 24/10/1986 after hearing the truth of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. God revealed to me that I was loved as Moses Abraham and Isaac and His word is true . I started reading the gospel of John and Acts. I knew that the believers would lay hands on the sick and they will recover. I’m still learning more daily and seeing more healing and miracles. Jesus never told us to pray for the sick but to heal the sick.

The topic of this debate is wrong. It should be Cessationism vs. Restorationism. The Azuza street revival acknowledged the gifts had been restored. Read 1st hand account book by Frank Bartleman.

I'm a cessationist, but dang I love Dr Brown's smile!!! God bless you, brother! Beautiful discussion!!!

Continuationism sounds way more biblical, and Cessationism seems depend on lot's of assumptions, and philosophy- rather than the scripture ....."well, i never seen those things happen, so I don' believe in them".

I came out of cessationism at the age of 24. I speak in tongues, get visions and dreams, cast out demons, and see people healed when demons leave them, etc. Not going back!!

Osman- I DO believe in miracles. Brown- But miracles DO happen. 😂😜

I agree totally with Dr. Brown. Not for any other reason except it agrees with scripture. I haven’t studied other men’s or women’s teaching, just the Bible. And that alone is the reason I have to agree with Dr. Brown. Well done Dr. Brown. Glad to have your voice. I pray Jim Osman becomes a continuationist. The gifts are a blessing. All of them. ❤

I could have defended the cessationalist position better. Ofcorse i probably wouldn't be as gracious as Jim. With all that filibustering going on from dr. Brown

One important point I believe we need to include more is that the miracles happening today in the charismatic movements looks like spirituality from other religions: The toungespeaking (as we see in eastern religion), the sporadic healing, the prophesies/forthtellers. Can it be that this is new age synergy? A second point is church history: Does it make sense that almost all of the devout Christian men and women through history has all overlooked such a huge essential part of faithful Christian living? Maybe they were more protected against the temptation?

Apostolic gifts has ceased period!!!!! Proof me wrong.

It’s actually very annoying that continuationist seem to never understand that basic premise that cessationists deny- the GIFT of _____ (I.e. miracles) They just go on and on about all the miracles they know of. That point does not need defending. A pointed question should be: is there a difference, and if so, how would you differentiate the GIFT of healing vs a healing events in the normal, instructed prayer to all churches. As for the back and forth about the sick friends of Paul, I think Jim missed a big chance to emphasize the gift & their ceasing follows the PURPOSE of the gifts. It actually enhances the foundational concept of cessationism more. The sign gifts were to validate the word of God that was brought by true apostles to the unbelievers they were preaching to. As I see it, it’s very simple- The friends already believed the gospel. That would have been outside of the purpose. The “timeline” answer as to why they didn’t heal him is often countered with the timings of healings at Malta.

Jim's question is very clear regarding the gifts but Michael's answer and questions seems to confuse everything. Either he does not understand Jim's position or he is avoiding it and obfuscates the whole issue.

I’m in minute 35 and I have to agree with Dr. Brown that in certain personal matters we should seek the direction of God for our lives which means God will reveal His perfect will for our lives. Otherwise, why even ask God for wisdom? 🤔🤔🤔

The fact that we are repeatedly ask in the new testament to watch for false prophets implies there are true prophets otherwise anyone who would prophesy would be automatically labelled a false prophets. If there were no true prophets there would be no need to examine the fruits he bears or weather or not his prophecies came to pass. Further more, Rom 12:5 contains the word 'measure' weather you want to read it "prophesy according to the measure of 'the' faith or 'his' faith or 'our' faith" it is still according to the measure which implies various levels of prophetic utterance. We need to access the reliability of the utterance. If nonsense it is one of those false prophet you need to avoid and there are lots of charlatan but none the less there has always been a few true ones to this day. You wont find them on TV.

Brown loves the sound of his own voice. I don’t think this is a discussion but a lecture.

Arguing that no one failed to heal in the time of Acts is like concluding Tom Brady never threw an incomplete pass after watching his highlight reel. Acts is a short book spanning decades of time. It doesn’t make sense to include such events.

Im glad Dr. Brown is showing the fact his view is closer to scripture.

Sounds like Gods word is not enough, 21:01 people need fortune tellers, none of the Miracles are eternal, Lazarus died again. God through Paul said to set your affections on things eternal.

i felt dr brown always aswered with a question

I Corinthians 14 lists the gifts... it doesn't say the gift of healing was for apostles only. It also doesn't say all people will get healed. Even if you want to claim that everyone the Apostles prayed for got healed, no where does Scripture say God gives gifts just like the Apostles had to everyone...

Jim did a good job but didn’t engage with most of the passages Dr brown brought up. It’s so clear Dr. Brown has a better and more scriptural argument. Last days young men will prophecy, daughters prophesying, etc. we’re encouraged to seek the gifts. There’s nothing about it fading. And there’s clearly other apostles who were not apart of the 12. If we’re going off scripture, Dr. brown wins.

I have an observation to make. Nick had to intervene so many times to have Brown (why i have to be titled Doctor instead of my first name, I'll never understand) allow Osman to answer questions. I had a career working with tough individuals and there was this one moniker leveled many times on some individuals. "Mealymouth". Brown escalates frequently and overstates his points. This energy usually indicates a control of the conversation. I also hear a lot of redirecting the convo on tangents that actually create confusion. As far as the references to healings and prophecies around the world by Brown, i ask: is there any place in scripture that tells us we have to believe all the incidents of other people claiming supernatural gifts to be saved? Is salvation dependent on anyone's testimony or claim to have had a supernatural occurrence? Just because people claim these types of occurrences doesn't mean we have to believe these things...either for salvation, OR so as not to blaspheme the Spirit. But claiming that the Spirit is saying something or doing something when He's not...is absolutely blasphemy. I think our position should be to err on the side of caution, not in asumptive behavior that is characteristic of those who don't exercise self control and soundness in mind (including reasoning and objective critique and rational discernment) (the later parenthesized functions can't be dismissed as psychological bable, they are actually expressed in scripture). We really need to raise the bar on understanding and defending these concerns od doctrinal stances and quit being lazy and unwilling to defend God's clearly revealed word to this planet. Words matter, Syntax matters, grammar matters, and Logic and reasoning matters. Lets quit being vague and confusing to our world about these issues. Critical thinking is dismissed as unbelieve. But critical thinking ALWAYS leads us to question errors and falsehood. Btw, I am a cessationist and today's hearing of Browns insistent techniques in badgering Osman taught me only one thing. Not that I should reconsider my cessationist belief, but that Osman has a lot of patience. I wasn't always a cessationist. Until 4 years ago, i always allowed (in my reasoning) for charismatic and pentecostal in my tolerence. But when I finally concluded that I can't allow for the inconsistencies, it became resoundingly clear and clearer. I honestly believe there is a delusion in the equation that concerns truth. If we reject truth, we believe lies. In my 67 years, i find the credibility waning in charismatic and pentecostal doctrines. Im convinced of cessation of the sign gifts.

It would be good to define terms....

The “hall monitor” who thinks he has to keep stepping in to run cover for “Pastor Jim” is annoying. The two grown men can talk without you stepping in, in a biased way.

Great debate, thank you. To me it seems the charismatic view focuses on the sovereignty of man, cessationism focuses on the sovereignty of God

No, he’s saying that scripture is validating prophesying, in the body as a normative practice, so again not adding new prophesy, but as an active gift with the central purpose being the edification of the body of believers, so quite to the contrary of the accusations of adding arbitrary subjectivity to scripture, but rather, scripture itself is unequivocally mandating the continuous use of these gifts especially prophesying as normative for the body of believers, for its own edification and a necessity for the pursuance of closer intimate relationship with Christ himself .

Love this discussion that is way over due