Micro Melee #5 - Crouch Cancelling Get-up Attack 

MichaelRadar great video

MichaelRadar Thanks for making this video! I’m one month into the game after playing Smash 4 since its release and I’m already making huge strides for myself. This information will definitely be put to good use.

Thank you for clarifying this, when I got to that section, I went down here immediately.

If you can run up grab with falco can you not run up/wavedash shine? Or does the shine hitbox not reach far enough?

Everything I know about Melee I learned from Grandpa Hugo

Keep on liking, subscribing, upvoting etc and I won't! I'm really trying to get this channel off the ground and every little bit helps. Glad to hear you're enjoying the channel! I'm enjoying making videos!

88zachary88 Canada is lit 🇨🇦

CANADA BABY! Are any of you close to new brunswick??

TheBeggies95 originally I lived in Mississauga Ontario, and then last May I moved to Vancouver with my girlfriend! However, I did a road trip to the east coast two summers ago and it was beautiful! Drove through New Brunswick, looked chill.

TheBeggies95 hell yeah NB circle jerk lets go.

Nice man!! I need to see Vancouver someday, looks very beautiful!! 88zachary88, where are you from in Nb man!?

That sentence reminds me of star craft 2

Glad you liked it! I'd say this was my hardest video, maybe tied with the Falco kill setups in terms of pure hours...¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm glad it shows though. This video took so much effort and the fact that it had to be pushed back due to how long it took + other commitments was really a bummer. Because of work I'm pretty much only able to really work on videos on saturday/sunday, and sometimes there just isn't enough time in the weekend to finish!

Thanks! Yeah it's definitely a lot of work to make each video, and sometimes that can get overwhelming when work starts asking me for overtime etc... I really want to still produce weekly content, but I also am starting to realize I can't truly guarantee that... Hopefully other people feel the same and don't mind if I'm a little behind sometimes!

Thanks! Glad people like the channel. Makes the hard work worth it!

Sam Vondersaar in Puff vs Marth you can crouch under it entirely lmao

Awesome dude! It's pretty difficult to research, test, and cover everything myself, so I knew there were gonna be things I left out. Having people clarify or add on to the existing material is super helpful! As long as the ASDI isn't directly to the right, that wouldn't affect the crouch cancelling, so you're totally right. I'll definitely experiment with that in my own gameplay. Ultimately the point of the video was to cover some common options, not every single possible option for each character. I intentionally left out concepts like dashing back out of crouch for example just to keep the video short, as it already was quite long!

I’m actually releasing a correction video in regards to this video, I’ve just been kind of behind because my dog had surgery so I need to take care of him. The main thing I got wrong was that if you crouch down and towards your opponent, this allows you to follow up on punishes that wouldn’t work otherwise. This allows characters like Luigi and ICs to get a punish. All the percents and stuff are still correct, but I didn’t do enough testing with Luigi and ICs!

What kind of testing did you do? You realize that the defender frame advantage after CC is different depending on the getup attack right?

What kind of testing did *you* do? I did Fox's GUA from his back on the first hit side, exactly like in your example @ 6:09.

I'm still not sure what you mean by +30 or +16. Are you suggesting luigi has 30 frames to punish after GUA? That's literally never true with any character in the game. I tested this by having a second player shield as soon as they possible could, and tried to punish afterwards in a variety of ways. On top of this, I researched the frame data to determine the defenders frame advantage after they CC a getup attack. This accounts for the fact that some characters getup attacks are significantly less laggy than others. For example because Marth's getup attack isn't very laggy , you only have 15 frames to punish it...against Samus/Falcon/Sheik/Yoshi/Ganon you have 17. Luigi's wavedash alone takes 14 frames (wavedash is jump squat plus 10). I'm not sure how he could possibly punish Marth's getup attack for example in 15 frames with a "perfectly timed wavedash" when he literally doesn't have a one frame move to follow up after his wavedash... I actually believe misfire is viable, but no one would really consider that a practical option considering it's based on luck....

I'm not trying to be a dick, but are you even testing with debug mode? It honestly seems like you just had your friend hit you with GUAs in training mode and you weren't able to punish doing the inputs manually (and even that is inexcusable considering how easy the immediate dsmash punish is). Here are some gifs; you can go frame by frame and I left the input display on at the top so you can see that you have plenty of frames to punish in a variety of ways on both the front and back hits of GUA. gfycat.com/WellgroomedPessimisticAfricanjacana gfycat.com/TautHalfDogwoodclubgall gfycat.com/SkeletalReliableIberianmole gfycat.com/DecimalFatBluefintuna

Bones0 I retested it and you’re right. I didn’t do enough extensive testing the first time. Probably gonna upload a correction video

In the second video (spreadsheet explanation) I address this point. I imagine staling is a factor with a two-hit getup attack, but I didn't factor that in. I did test it beforehand though and based on the stale queue on ikneedata, it would probably increase the percent by 1%. This is because the double-hit data assumes the hits add 6 percent each. If the second hit added 5%, you'd have 1% more room to work with. In the interest of guaranteed accuracy, I chose to not include staling into the final numbers. Better to know it works than to assume you have one extra percent to work with, but not be sure...ya know? If anyone wants to test this, I'd love to bump everything up by one! It's worth mentioning staling is very unlikely to affect the single hit of a get-up attack...it could happen but it's not practical to predict it would. You'd have to have some scenario where they're consistently getting knocked down and only using get-up attack and that just doesn't really happen hahaha.

Apparently according to druggedfox, Marth can actually cover all options. He can cover tech roll in by f-smashing behind him, and cover roll away with dash forward up-b/pivot f-smash. Sounds tricky af though. However, if you shield I doubt that’s possible. Shielding getup attack is totally an option but it’s generally more of a commitment and can’t cover options as well. Wavedashing our of shield takes 14 frames which doesn’t leave you with enough frames to f-smash afterwards for example.

BurritoGalaxy apparently if you crouch diagonally towards your opponent or c-stick diagonally, you can ASDI towards them and hit it! Didn’t think of that when testing. Also, yup you could downsmash! Good point.

Totally agree. Worth mentioning that I try to mix it up but remember that it takes me several hours (have definitely dedicated 10+ hours on some videos) sorting through pro footage just to find the clips I want. It's not like there's some resource that exists of every time a pro crouch cancelled a getup attack. Once I've found clips I like, I usually focus on other aspects of the video. Trying to come out with content on such a regular basis forces me to make these kinds of decisions just so I can get it to certain level.

Totally, the effort is evident. Just a thought as you move forward and continue to polish the videos. Keep at it.

Adrian Valenzuela mhm! I still appreciate the feedback a ton. I just think people really overlook how long it takes to get footage for stuff like this. For the Falco kill setups videos, it sometimes took hours just to find one example.

Derpy apparently Luigi can wavedash forward down smash and that’s 20 frames. However sometimes the amount of frames you have after CC get up attack is lower than 20. I also think a frame perfect punish isn’t super realistic when opponent can just hold shield. As for ICs, I’m not sure. From my testing it seemed way too far but someone could prove me wrong. Either way they’re hard to execute, don’t work against certain characters, and might just not work altogether. So that’s why I didn’t include it!

Adrian Ruelas he actually can do it! I got that wrong, my bad lol. the input was kinda strange but a guy tested it and it’s definitely possible!

@@Radarssbm Could you(or anyone reading this) elaborate on this, or link to a video about it?

NotaSkeleton it really had to do with me just executing poorly, but also if you DI down and in, it’s easier to execute properly!

Erik Anton Seastead the second hitbox actually has set knockback, so percent doesn’t matter lol.

Ricky Johnson yup! I was thorough. Most characters have only one hitbox for both, or two hitboxes for both sides. Samus was one of the few I remember off the top of my head where she does the “normal” hitbox on one side, and the hard hitting one on the other. Since I didn’t think people would realistically be able to check which side she landed on, I didn’t bother making a special case for Samus when her percents are already different lol

The options I showed were just some of the many options you can do, experiment and find out what you like!

DJay Phresh ? Most of the characters CC at high percents? Falco is on the lower side actually for this technique.

KoenBo www.ssbwiki.com/Sakurai_angle I figured someone would ask this. Check it out, it’s pretty interesting!

In general, or just for the more data focused parts? I’ve gotten lots of compliments on the design so it’s hard to know what’s better haha.

In my case I gotta say all of it, maybe make the font have a darker-pink outline to separate the colors a bit more? :P