Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Designers Reveal How They Made the Nemesis System (Mini-Documentary) 

Thanks Neil! Sorry for not getting to this comment sooner. Really interesting, were there any parts of the story you think could've been discussed in more detail? I'm curious what your experience was like writing for a game with so many possibilities, what was that experience like for you?

@@GameBrainOfficial My experience was nothing short of amazing. On the writing side, I kept having to pinch myself that I was writing for the world of Tolkien. Most of my work was on the background Orc conversations the player hears when exploring the world and then of course , dialogue for the Nemesis system. This dialogue was developed in concert with the design team to reflect multiple possibilities - in some cases, reacting to a specific circumstance such as a previous encounter with the player and in some cases specific to the interaction (in a way that was synced to the character design changes) For example, the player might have an encounter where the Orc was burned by an explosion but survived, the character design would reflect the burn scars and the dialogue would reference "you burned me with them exploding barrels but I survived and now I'm gonna burn you!" All Nemesis system dialogue was also written to reflect psychology profiles - I believe we had something like 6 classes, for example "Commanding" or "Deranged". Using the exploding barrels example above, that encounter had variations of dialogue. A Commanding Orc psychology would speak differently than the Deranged regarding surviving a barrel explosion. All of these lines of dialogue were written in massive spreadsheets - to be honest, thats the hardest part of writing this kind of content as nothing is less inspiring than staring at lines and lines of Excel spreadsheets! Beyond the writing, because of my film experience, I wad also heavily involved in co-shooting the 8-part Making Of documentary series on the game. Through this I got a very close first hand experience of the struggles and victories team leadership experienced as well as being there on the ground when the game blew everyone away at E3 and then at PAX. All in all, an incredible year of my life and one that I will forever be grateful for. Thanks again for the video and bringing back some good memories.

@@NeilEvery Thanks so much for sharing mate, very interesting about the psychology profiles, wish I’d put that into the story! Take care 🙂

Did you write for SoW too?

@@knutzano Unfortunately no. I was at a different studio by then.

Thanks Shane! Yeah I think the series definitely had more to achieve after SoW, which I think is a good game but wasn't exactly the SoM sequel I wanted...Thanks for the kind words :D

Game Brain anytime my friend. Keep it up!

Should I play shadow of mordor, I already have and finished shadow of war

@@WCRyder you should althought some things change but yea it's a good game

@@WCRyder visually i think SoM is better so it'll be fun to play and watch. But you'll miss out on the more complex system of SoW. Even worse no Olog.

I found that once i stopped paying attention on the repetitive combat and started paying attention on the nemesis system and building my empire finally having a satisfying showdown with the overlord, just pure strategy, i enjoyed it more, and i used stealth allot more when grinding intel amd branding, tried to avoid hand to hand as much as i can and only used it more when starting a seige, it made the combat less repetitive, it was a game changer.. finally breaking 1000 hours, and still growing strong, wouldve been in over 2000 hours if it wasnt for RDR2 taking up my time🤣 of which i have over 1000 hours on.. but i never will forget shadow of war due to this unique system, but then again, thise are the only 2 games i play as im a huge sucker for history, anything that isnt modern or futuristic, im in it, but it has to be unique

@@anonymous_dot_com2326I think Shadow of War and RDR2 are both 60 hours.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts friend! Just playing Shadow of War now for the first time, and liking it generally but definitely feeling like bigger isnt always better...

@@GameBrainOfficial Oh definetely! I actually like shadow of mordor much better in some aspects rather than shadow of war. What makes SoW special though is the way you can symphatize and begin to actually care and try to help your followers thanks to how fleshed out some characteristics are, like sometimes they can risk your life to save you and it's pretty wholesome in some weird way lol. Great video!

@@GameBrainOfficial I feel you , the game shines until you reach max level ... Which is 60 hours into the game. The orc system , the gear everything only matters at max level when you are trying to max out fortress and fight truly difficult orcs

how? does the samurai doesn't die?

“Rememberal” lmfao

Would’ve been nice, but the system was patented.

@@GymCritical EXACTLY!!! Most people have no idea that the "Burocrats" of such companies are using the legal system to prevent many other games from doing the same... I also was unaware of this until a little while... So, I'd encourage others to look into this and check for themselves. It's hard to know if something similarly good wasn't in games (like AC Odyssey, as shown on this video regarding the mercenary when interacting with the main character - just to clarify, I'm not saying that this happened to this game in question, just providing an example to illustrate what seems to be happening... Sincce Ubisofy could have done way better).

No other game implemented this because it was patented by WB and no one else is allowed to use it. There are other games with a similar system but with distinct differences but nothing is that good and powerful compared to this.

This comment 💪 Thank you friend!

Thank you for the kind words! I’m very grateful for the subs I have to be honest. I love making these things, so I just hope whoever watches them enjoys them 👌 Look forward to hearing from you in the future!

Yeah I definitely did not enjoy the missions in SoM. Bit of a waste of time IMO. Playing through SoW for the first time at the moment, and have exactly the same thoughts.

​@@GameBrainOfficial 100% agreed. The game should be more of a nemesis system sandbox, where you create your own story.

Means the world to hear some positive thoughts on the channel! Thanks friend 👌

Thanks Nicolas! So glad you liked it and look forward to hearing from you again soon :D Stay tuned for another upload coming very, very soon!

Thank you so much! Yeah I’m only just playing SoW now all these years later. Take care 🤜

Thanks mate! That’s super humbling. I just hope these things find an audience that enjoys them more than anything. Appreciate it, and hope to hear more from you in the future!

Glad to see someone else drawing the Noclip comparison; learning about a game's development is just as interesting (& important) as the game itself. This video was very well-made Game Brain, love your work 🤙

Thank you@@Accela_cyberia! I appreciate that very much. Glad you enjoyed it, stay tuned for some more similar content soon :)

Hey friend! Thank you sooo much :D Appreciate it. Yeah SoM is definitely an underrated game...when I first played it I totally missed out on what the nemesis system had to offer. As you can sort of see in some of the footage, I had a lot of fun creating chaos with it this time around. Thanks again and talk soon!

Thanks Ashran! Appreciate the kind words. So long as people are enjoying what I put out, I'm not too worried about exploding or anything, anything that happens happens you know. Look forward to hearing from you in the future mate!

Thank you so much my friend, appreciate the kind words!

This is something I told Monolith and they liked and responded to the idea (also suggested I read a particular book it reminded them of) wish I could find the tweet. I suggested it'd be neat to have a super hero game where you're a hero in a midst of stopping a heist, the thug gets shocked during this event, he comes back a few days/months later in game time as the shocker, emergent event happens of all the power in the city going out..and now you have villain who could possibly be your arch enemy. (I guess a mixture of Champions Online arch nemesis/Nemesis system)...if they beat you they become a more notorious villain and could form a faction of terror... So on and so on - I thought about this for awhile LOL. - it would also be amazing for a wrestling game the AEW devs should look into it. Also I like what dwarf fortress wrote on their description "The original nemesis system: Meet adversaries from the previous games" - I haven't watched the full video yet but I wonder if the devs got the idea from DF.

I think a fighting game could be a great fit for a Nemesis system. Maybe it wouldn't appeal to the purists, but I think the possibility of near-endless moveset variations could be awesome. Might require an ungodly amount of animation work, but who knows? Maybe an AI system like an enhanced Euphoria engine-type thing could be developed to generate dynamic animations and responses. I wonder how many procedural systems you could combine into a game. What if you combined the procedural weapons of Borderlands with the Nemesis sytsem of Shadow of Mordor, and the procedural level generation of something like Remnant: From the Ashes? What if it were possible to do the same for the game's narrative? There are already programs that use machine learning to generate unique stories (AI Dungeon). I wonder how this kind of thing might be utilised in the future. How much procedural generation is too much? How much hand-crafted content is necessary? Depends on what kind of experience you're trying to create, I suppose.

Multiplayer games! I think about how Team Fortress 2 has a system where if one player was fragging you repeatedly they would be "DOMINATING" you and if you killed them back you would get your "REVENGE." It would be this mini narrative that happens during a match. Now imagine if that persisted between games and you could hunt down those players "DOMINATING" you through the servers through some tracking system and get rewards for it. I feel like there's a lot of room to tinker and flesh out such an idea

@@5ecretcode A superhero game would be perfect, hey. Let's wait and see what Rocksteady's working on!

Total War. You don't necessarily have to kill them to beat them. So it's possible they can come back without it breaking reality, which is a problem for a lot of games. And having a rival general/leader to battle will certainly be fun. Also can work with betrayal.

I have some spicy stuff coming soon! Stayed tuned my friend 😃

Thanks so much Jordan! Appreciate the support and welcome to the channel. Already have my next video on the go :)

With all the microtransaction nonsense out and the rebalancing, is SoW worth playing? As in, a good followup to SoM?

So I absolutely love SoM I think it's a masterpiece one of the gems of the late last gen and man you absolutely nailed it. I recently played through SoM again and basically did everything in the game put in a solid 200+ hours enjoyed every moment it's well crafted and engaging from start to finish and very player driven and rewarding. it lets the player experiment with the systems at their own pace and spaces out it's player progression ingeniously making you always feel like Talion is growing and getting stronger but never like you are at all limited needlessly. The prologue immediately throws you in with a great narrative hook and lots of mechanics and systems already at play and everything you get after only makes it better and not only that the progression is very non-linear and based on what you the player decide to do and when. Basically everything gives good power, every ability is good and worthwhile, there's no clutter in the skills, it just FLOWS so good and never lets up. There's no grind and no feeling of artificiality it's just immersion and innovative emergent gameplay based on your own actions the entire time. Like I said.... masterpiece. I got to SoW excited to finally play it after revisiting the first and it's so... off. Almost everything just feels horribly off. There is some redeeming qualities about the game but so much is wrong I find it just outweighs it and really sours the whole experience. The game begins with Talion and Celebrimbor acting out of character from the past game in order to give Talion an arbitrary power nerf and remove and make you re-learn everything because video games except everything is worse and less useful on top of all the new stuff because padding and this game is basically a reboot. The prologue of SoW sucks, it completely pales in comparison to the masterclass opening of SoM and SoW could have been as good if not better had it played to the strengths of SoM. They should NOT have had Talion lose the ring in the most contrived way or if they HAD to do that contrived power nerf they could have had it not nonsensically take away wraith powers that had no affiliation with that ring at all! Seriously it's for this reason I recommend people play SoW first because it lets you get to the meat of what everyone talks about when it comes to these Middle-Earth games, the nemesis system, and it lets you REALLY experience it.... constantly. They should have aimed to emulate a similar feeling of control and power yet untapped potential as the first game, it wouldn't make a difference if they let you keep everything from the first game either because new players wouldn't know how to utilize everything. They only did this make the game a different less gameplay driven experience than the first one. More of a loot based stat roll RPG they could monetize and keep massive player numbers for years instead of an immersive atmospheric action RPG. And SoW has got atmopshere, it's got pretty good atmos for sure but it's undercut by Dush of the Flies spinning my camera around for the 87th time in the past hour to once again go on and on about being an undying immortal bug god and then i also have 3 other uruk captains being absolute crackheads just come in out nowhere 1 by 1 seemingly planned out one of them named Hark the singer or something constantly singing me a ballad as we fight. It's like... what happened here? this IS fun but... these encounters used to have weight ya know? this is already starting to get old a mere few hours into the game and the combat is so gimped that this design choice just makes playing the game in any way but a stealthy flippy shadow archer of death is the most unfun thing of all time even with all the old skills back and a bunch of the new ones and the "added depth" of the nemesis system is mostly just the illusion of added depth it's basically the same as the first game but the random encounters with captains have been amped up to over 9000 and everything with the captains is divided into like a million different specific sub-categories They made so many odd design choices with the combat design. That's what I'm mainly talking about when they "gimped" gameplay. SoM is seen by many as sort of a simple Arkham-like beat-em up and that style of gameplay and flow seems to be an inspiration but it's also a lot more than that. There's so much lethality and cancelability even from the start and everything Talion gets as you progress just adds onto this eventually turning it into a beautiful ballet of death with lots of depth and player expression. It makes you enjoy getting into combat and seeing how far you can take fights and that's where the challenge lies most of the time, sometimes it can be challenging to survive but most of the time it won't be, the challenge is getting that feeling of perfect flow and execution. SoW is the exact opposite of this. In the first game you could use your abilities together in so many creative ways. Use the drain stun mechanic briefly to halt an enemy about to hit you then blast him with wraith stun immediately, then double counter two of his uruk pals trying to attack you, then begin flurrying the uruk you stunned and direct some of the strikes to other uruks around you to keep them at bay before finishing the uruk you started on finally with an execution. This is just a simple go to combo for me in SoM, in SoW doing this is insanely cumbersome and basically impossible because everything has been slowed down and some moves just are arbitrarily made unable to chain together like they could before like if you try to drain stun into wraith stun immediately it simply won't connect with an enemy at all in SoW. Try it. Hold your drain key for a split second, it will stun the enemy for a brief moment it depends on how long you hold it but it's most often used really quickly as a way to open an enemies defenses or stop them in their tracks. So do it quickly and then try to fully wraith stun the enemy, your punch won't connect at all doing no damage or stun. It's a complete gimped joke of a combat system and it ruins the fun of the game so drastically for me it's a completely different experience. First game was fun because no matter what happened I didn't sweat it, it felt natural. Stealth was great, combat was great, exploration was great, nemesis system was perfectly designed to be present but not overly so and areas let you breathe and take things in in between encounters, making the moments when crazy things do happen, big brawls and stuff, feel WAY more special and meaningful. MAn that was an essay I have just been wrestling with these thoughts for some time I've been playing the Middle-earth games in my spare time over discord with a friend and he's basically the opposite of me he loves grinding and min-maxing and stat management in games so he loves SoW and he can't understand too well where I'm coming from because he didn't really enjoy SoM for it's combat or depth of gameplay and I think a lot of people were the same, it's more about the feeling of just being in the world and the uniqueness of nemesis system for them than being this game with open stealth, combat and exploration that all feeds into one another. Monolith noticed this and responded by streamlining the hell out of SoW to make all it's pillars separate and more easily digestible and to make the things people appreciated most front and center with it's other aspects taking a back seat or even just being straight up redesigned. For real stealth wise and movement wise SoW feels like a true sequel to SoM. It's quite good, many improvements and additions. Nemesis system and unique immersive elements are hit and miss, mostly miss. The feel of naturalness is really undercut by all the captains being marked on map making locating and identifying them completely easy and basically no longer a part of the game. There's no more variety. Remember when SoM just told you the vague area the captain was only if you marked them and then you had to go an actually hunt for them? Ahhh immersion... So many of the little things that worked so well are gone or reworked to not work nearly as well. It's basically everything I find bothersome about modern game design put all into one game, I had such high hopes for it :( Oh well at least we got SoM.

@@EmeffMonkey So I just wrote a bunch on why I dislike SoW but I will say this I still think it's fun and worth playing. I should have stressed more that there is positives in the game that do make it worth playing. I did say about the movement and stealth being all around solid and improved but there's also a lot of cool new skills and you're gonna need them because any skill you liked from the first game is not going to be as useful especially at the start because they made executions based on an arbitrary meter called might instead of off your hit counter. I'm sure after grinding for hours you will be able to get it somwhere close to how the first game can be in terms of flexiblity in using things like execute and combat drain but I think having the counter tied to in game mechanics was genius and much better for gameplay they even had unique skill based things to further the depth of this system like the perfect timing sword strikes to add extra ticks to the counter getting execute and drain moves more frequently. I'm pretty sure that mechanic is completely removed from SoW i may be wrong but I put like 70 hours in so far and have scoured the skill tree many times and I think it's gone and I hope it is because it'll be way less fun having to just time to build up a static meter faster instead of a combo counter still it's honestly a fun game if you just take it for what it is. is it a good followup to SoM? No. it's a downgrade. Is it a good game? Objectively yes. It's not badly made, it's just made in a way I don't really like and I feel like most people who really enjoyed SoM will find lacking in a lot of places but will still find some enjoyment from the game. Imo give it a try but wait for sale it's not a must play. the questionable design choices do leave a sour taste but i still am able to have fun pretty much

So I'm just playing SoW now for the first time. Massive Arkham fan and loved SoM when it came out, but never bothered with SoW. And so far I'm liking it, but it do prefer the smaller scale of SoM. I'm always super skeptical of sequels getting bigger and better. I won't make any broad judgements yet though...will have to keep on trucking

SoW after the changes is a great game and requires more time investment than SoM for it to feel intimate like you say. I have invested a lot of hours and the world feels just as connected even on the larger scale. The only gripe I have is that as an Orc gets stronger or gains a higher rank it is not as visible as it is in SoM. It is hard to differentiate a level 10 Captain from a level 70 in the end game. Also the customisation options just take the cake and keep you playing for longer experimenting more builds.

Yeah I'm very curious to hear about their next project too! Can't wait to hear more about Rocksteady's new Suicide Squad game...feel like it's seriously missed the DC boat, but won't make any judgements yet.

Thank you friend! Yeah playing around in the system like a chess game is really remarkable. Being able to literally create open world missions is something I've never experienced elsewhere. When I first played SoM I just blew through it and moved on, but making this video only emboldened to me why this system is honestly a masterpiece of design. So well executed. Thank you for the kind words though, appreciate it!

i feel like you're missing the point of the video. The point is to show that monolith succeeded despite the worst possible odds, not that they made a sequel to a successful game. It's showing how they built it from the ground up, and pulled out of a nosedive. Shadow of war is fantastic, but monolith were effectively safe after shadow of mordor came out, so this is to show how they got to that point.

Yesssss! Welcome to the channel, glad you have you on board :)

Thank you friend! What game would you like me to cover on the channel in the future mate?

Me

Talion is kind of like the Starkiller of LOTR

Thank you mate! I appreciate that, and stay tuned for some more videos coming very soon!

Thanks friend! I’m also very interested to see what Monolith does next, I always wanted them to branch out to other parts of Middle Earth but time will tell I guess!

Yeah curious to see if the next Monolith game is a 'Shadow of...' entry...haha I wonder if all games in the series need to start with 'Shadow of...' . Shadow of Rohan...perhaps?

Shucks thanks Peter, appreciate the kind words. Have you played the series at all?

@@GameBrainOfficial cheers mate. Yeah, loved Shadow of Mordor on PS4. Will hopefully some day get to Shadow of War!

Thank you friend! Glad you stopped by and took a look! Are you a fan of Shadow of Mordor?

@@GameBrainOfficial Love the game but could never finish it due to my extreme ADHD, I loved the time i did get to play it though and watching this video made me appreciate it more!

You have good ears and memory my friend. So it's the menu music from GRID :D

See you at 123,456 views *wink*

Massively appreciate being compared to my biggest inspiration. Danny's work has been basically THE reason I do what I do. Thanks for the subscribe and welcome the channel, so glad to have you on board :D

@@GameBrainOfficial also FYI I @'ed Danny on his discord to tell him he appeared in this, and he checked it out, so he saw your video ☺️

No way, where can I peek at this? The NoClip discord?

Definitely worth a replay my friend! I recommend blasting through the main story and even skipping the cutscenes so you can get the branding mechanic as quickly as possible. The real story is the nemesis system.

Wait, why is that a shame?

@@Jlerpy Because the game is 100% dead with no comeback as fun as it was.

Oh, I see. Yes, that is sad.

Thank you so much my friend! Appreciate it 😄

Ooooh thanks for the suggestion friend! Tell me more...what do you want to know and why?

@@GameBrainOfficial Lmfao he just didn’t care and never responded to you

You should get shadow of war too, the nemesis system is improved, you prolly did already since its a year old post... The overlord upgrade is so fun

Got patented, so unlikely unless they go around the nemesis patent somehow; I doubt they’d even risk it though.

Thanks for watching my friend. You know after months of working on this video I never once noticed the tearing, and now I see it 😂 Won’t lie, it’ll have to do. I have another exciting video in the works and I can live with a bit of tearing. Thanks again for watching!

@@GameBrainOfficial Totally understandable. Much love 👍

That music my good sir is the menu music for GRID :)

@@GameBrainOfficial OHHHHHHHH racerdiver grid's main menu!!!!!!!! yasss finally!!! I had heard this music in a lot of videos earlier , was searching for this for about a month now Thanks a lot mann!!

@@shazboi Not a problem, glad I could guide you to a sweet tune :)

how you did that I tried to merge SOM and SOW accounts but I didn't meet any Orc from first game ( and I have already two regions under my control) kinda sad

@@adamlisiewicz1777 If it's on a console you need a online plus subscription or something. It's been a year for me. On PC, for steam? That is something I have no idea on. But It should remember your account.

Thanks for offering your thoughts mate! Yeah I didn't want to make it out like Condemned 2 and FEAR 2 were bad games, hence 'good not great'. That's a very simple way of me saying they weren't perfect and didn't sell great. It's sometimes hard to capture the nuance when you have so little time to get to the point of the story you know.

@@GameBrainOfficial yea I understand, just felt the need to express my adoration for their work.

Hell, maybe he can voice my videos. God knows he'd do a better job XD

@@GameBrainOfficial Have your people call my people.

Yea, imagine patenting your one original idea, when everything else in your game is taken from someone else, it’s incredibly scummy.

Yeah I do wonder what they're working on now. I can't see how it wouldn't be another Middle-earth game though. You never know though, maybe the microtransaction backlash has forced them down another path...

Context is everything I suppose, it would seem all the stars aligned really well in Shadow of Mordor to make the system seem conceivable. I think the Wolverine and Deadpool ideas are great, though. Imagine encountering them over the course of a game with battle scars and unique stories to recount. Definitely could work! I stand by my idea that a sports game could be perfect for this. I love the NBA2k games, and think a team sports version of Nemesis would be awesome. Rivalries with memories baked into the experience would be a great combination in a genre that already has so many systemic stories.

The biggest problem to applying this to other games is that they recently patented this game’s one original idea, despite taking ideas from a ton of different games.

Glad you liked it my friend! Yeah the tearing is hopefully not too bad, my apologies 😅

@@GameBrainOfficial V-Sync for your captures next time ;)

Yeah, it can work too with Mad Max or even Ghost Rider

*M rated

Yeah I agree to an extent. If you exploit weaknesses and dominate plenty of captains you can basically break the game. But I think that play-ability and control is what makes it special, it really is like being an all powerful god.

What is up my dude?

Thanks for watching Kevin. I agree to an extent. I attempted to secure interviews with the software engineers who did a lot of the back-end work on the system. But Warner Bros declined my requests to speak with them. So I was limited in the information I could gather in terms of how the nitty-gritty aspects of the system fell into place. I tried to use the first few minutes of the video to canvas how the system worked in a less formal way. I thought by using Azgrom as a case study for how the system can create systemic stories, I'd skip over having to explain the system point-by-point later on. This was mainly because I needed to keep the pace of the video fast, to cover all the other information. I'm sure I could've done better, though.

Thanks Angie! I'm hoping one day I'll work up the energy to beat Shadow of War. All these years on haven't gotten past the first few hours. Loved what I did play though.

@@GameBrainOfficial do you have your own nemisis in shadow of mordor? Because your most loyal follower and your most hated nemesis will come to shadow of war.

No I actually didn't know nemesis carried over between games. That's really cool though, I feel like their all memorable enough to not require this, though.

@@GameBrainOfficial well when you play after defeating the tower and if someone is a bad player, sometimes you WILL have a memorable follower and a most hated nemesis. For example look at Tearofgrace's shadow of mordor follower and he has TWO great nemisis Prak Jaws and Ukrom Blood Storm and his best follower is Kruk Blood Axe, and how he meet those nemisis is amazing and he is doing shadow of war again. So if you put in the effort and time into shadow of mordor's nemisis system, you do get something, sometimes amazingly.

I am.

Such factual. Many accurate. Yeah totally right you are friend. I did find the SoM quite easy for the most part, and most of the times I died in the video was on purpose, just to get the footage of dying. That sounds like such a boast, but it really was. But I honestly think players should occasionally die intentionally while playing SoM, as it activates so many storytelling possibilities. The same way that you can brand and kill orcs, you can author stories by letting your death be another chapter in the journey. Maybe no one else feels this way but I think it's a fun way to play around with the system.

@@GameBrainOfficial yeah i started doing stuff like only getting the first tier of skills and upgrades when i play this game just so i maybe sometimes die

It does strike me as a missed opportunity to not have the wheels of it turning in other ways than your death. I get that they wanted to tie it into your actions, but I think they could still have achieved that by having that kind of "time passes, orcs rise and fall" dynamic moved along by other triggers.

@@Jlerpy exactly

Jlerpy well there’s always the ‘advance time’ mechanic at the towers. This does just that, lets you manually progress time and see captains/war chiefs go about their business. I used it mainly to change time of day but it also starts/ends current nemesis encounters. Is that what you meant?

Get good

@@shanefay1414 oh believe you me im trying ive been playing it religously but its testing my patience

They removed them