@ThePeaceableKingdom "Is it reasonable to expect sophisticated parsing of sentiment on the part of the masses?" Is it reasonable to excuse harmful attitudes with low expectations? "Sense of scale? Eviction, torture, leaking radiation, ongoing wars..." Shall we not talk about anything else until that's all been handled? This is an easy way to try and shut people up about anything you personally don't want to discuss.
I honestly think it depends on the situation. Sometimes it's just harmless fun, and other times people should realize that it's not the appropriate scenario.
@FluffyFeralMarmot "Everyone is a minority" is just a way of disregarding the fact that some people actually are treated worse than others by lumping everything into the same shade of grey rather than recognizing the real differences here. Likewise, accusing people of a "persecution complex" for pointing out the inequality they're subject to is just a way of trying to pin responsibility on them rather than the inequality they're subject to. Sometimes persecution really exists.
@FluffyFeralMarmot "You can't expect the pushers to change." Um, yes, we can expect people not to be bigoted. That is a legitimate expectation. It is their responsibility, not ours. Why should we be expected to change when we're not the ones doing anything wrong? They're the ones who have to change. Expecting people to get into grad school before they can avoid being subject to prejudice is ignorant of the fact that not everyone has the means to, and this shouldn't be necessary anyway.
Minority Burden = Majority Privelege. Privelege = "Private Law", literally. One law of standards for the privileged class, and different laws and consequenses for the minority class. It's wrong and shouldn't be tolerated. One of the charactaristics of being in a privileged class is that you do not necessarily know you are. But you know for sure when you are NOT. People need this message. People need to know that EVERYONE deserves equality, and respect.
@YashinNashi "The meaning of the word has shifted again, let it go. You were only borrowing it." It is the most widespread term used to refer to gay people and it is still in use for this purpose. This does not show any sign of changing. "When someone calls something gay now, they are not thinking about the word's connection to homosexuals." Using a minority group's identity as your all-purpose insult is implicitly demeaning. Why would you use that word?
@YashinNashi "The negative usage of the word 'gay' certainly started as an equivocation of homosexuals to whatever thing you don't like, but it has taken on a meaning of it's own." Yeah? So what is that meaning? It began as an insult that implied association with gay people, and it remains an insult that uses the term by which gay people are referred to. What makes you think anything's changed? If you acknowledge that this is thoughtless, what's the problem with making people think about it?
Well the way they see it they've already done us a favor by NOT outright rejecting our company, now its our duty to be as uncomfortable as possible while being wholly accommodating all the time.
your so good at arguing, i honestly think you could argue this from a strait person or majority view almost as well. not that youd want to but just cause your so good
@qabala That depends. I completely agree if the person in question is in a position of authority and/or has strong social skills so he's able to retaliate. But joking can also be used as a passive form of bullying and that should not be tolerated.
Conflict & defiance are natural desires of us humans. That's why people desire peace: It's in opposition to the desire for conflict. It'll never go away & attempting to prevent it is comically perpetuating it. So I support you desiring to end it cause it's just helping to keep us what we are: Human. Personally I support everyone being able to make fun of each other equally. I support being able to say any word regardless of what it started as. I support bringing hateful terms to having neutral
I've experienced this quite a bit, and I would like to share this video on Facebook but probably won't because it would be seen as me whining too much - this kind of worry is part of the PR management you mentioned.
@christo930 You can also observe this within other minority groups, but not everyone in those groups is ok with it. The phenomenon has been explained as 'taking the word back' which is perhaps empowering to the person who was originally targeted by this verbal abuse and negative categorization.
@CappitranoBellephant Your point is clear. And I am aware that the term 'minority' is popularized to mean 'oppressed and discriminated'. But just because experts in the field are using confusing and ambiguous language doesn't mean we should do too.
@dksilentbob "A sociological minority is not necessarily a numerical minority - it may include any group that is subnormal with respect to a dominant group in terms of social status, education, employment, wealth and political power."
I've experienced that crap my entire life. 1.Being the oldest, and forced to take care of my younger brother and cousins 2.Being a woman 3.Being atheist 4.Being black
Kudos to the entire video, but what I liked most is what you said in the end. How we shouldn't always have to be the better person. It gets really tiring to always have to be on your best behavior and constantly keep ourselves in check. We should be able to even sink lower than the other person without reinforcing the stereotype. It will take a while, but at least society is sort of leaning towards the right direction (I hope)
the reason I think a reinforced apathy is the rule, is because most people realize that it could have been them. the position of acceptance is tenuous, all it takes is an accident bad luck or a sudden illness and they become the freak show. Even so much as try having a talent or a dream that is outside of the box and see what labels get thrust on you. be normal be typical be average or else, ignoring that it is the abnormal that keeps their world alive.
@feedtherich "If you don't want to be lumped together, then don't lump oppressed minorities together with 'jokes' that empower real prejudice that actually affects their lives." I don't lump people together - because I generally try not to stereotype people as much as I am able, but thanks for demonstrating exactly why stereotyping and acting on assumptions about others based on skin color and gender is not a good way to judge a person.
zinnia, i feel ya on this one, It seems like people when they want to be prejudiced will find a way. being a straight white male athiest, you'd never guess under which of those four groups Ive experienced prejudice in my life, but when someone wants to make personal attacks against you, they just run down thier mental list until they find something about you they don't identify with and run with it
I [think] I understand what you're saying - why do you care what others think of you? Be you, some will be hateful, some will be cool. American society IS changing. And remember, nowhere in the constitution does it say we have a right NOT to be offended.
Another spot on video, ZJ. As a black man, I deal with this all the time. However I will say....when I see a black man being a dead beat dad, or someone that's capable of working finding ways to stay on welfare, it drives me through the roof. That person IS making it harder for me. I'd me mad at anyone doing those things, but it just adds another dimension to my anger
on the issue, I made a project encouraging users to download the project, copy the enclosed letter, and email duplications of it to the board of the website until someone actually did respond. Most were actually very supportive and I'm pretty sure some did do as I asked (still no response though) but one said that I shouldn't have published it because scratch was not a place for political debates. Damn straight, it's not because it wouldn't be a debate if instead of siding with those who make it
@popgrafix Women are a minority not because there are less of them, but because they are not considered the dominant class in society. It's about power, not numbers.
Many good points to think about, Z. Growing up in the US, when I was younger, there werent very many minorities. Some were quiet about being out, some had yet to arrive to this country from their home countries. Since then, gay people have come out and are visible, more and different immigrants have taken up residence in the US, athiests/agnostics are speaking out. In this climate, we need to be open and respectful-being polite and thoughtful goes a really long way.
@ImACuteGeek "Those words are not meaningless. If you say it long enough you end up being so comfortable with the it, you forget the fact that what you're saying is an insult to others." And if you hear it long enough you end up being so accustomed to it, you forget what you're hearing is meant to be an insult. If everyone hears it long enough, it becomes so commonplace everyone forgets it's supposed to be an insult, so when bigots try to use it to inflict pain, it no longer works; they lose.
If we're talking only about speech here, I'm afraid to say that there is just no viable solution to people disrespecting other social groups. There are only two ways to counter to this behaviour, strike back, or attempt to oppress free speech, which is never acceptable (except when calling for violence). Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how stupid it may be. Every social group will inevitably be mocked for its traits, this IS just the way it is because there's no way to stop it.
@infideluxe I said that, way off at the beginning, when I talked about "flagrant or egregious" examples. You're either not paying attention or you are deliberately trying to find something to argue with. I was making clear that we can't always know why someone has said something and that it's worthwhile talking the issue over rather than coming at someone as if they have just committed a crime.
You know ZJ I am all for True Equality and I mean “True Equality” the equality not many will want because it eliminates this “Because I am Deferent and I need to be treated differently” mind set. Everyone wants Equality but only when it’s in their best interest, we need one set of rules, don’t like it tuff, cry me a river. I am tired of everyone thinking oh “I’m special na na na booboo”.
@popgrafix I didn't say you were "wrong" I said the term minority can be used in more than one way. Saying " I don't see why women are seen as a minority when they are more than 50% of the population" is often used to excuse the fact that in some venues they are in the minority, thats part of the problem that JZ is speaking on
I'm 20 years old, I went to college, my husband went to college, and I am now pregnant. When people look at me, they think I'm some irresponsible twit. To top that off, my husband is 10 years older than me, so they think I'm a gold digging bitch as well. He doesn't make that much. People don't realize that some people, have goals in their lives, mine just happens to be, I want to have a family with a man that I love, and I'm getting it. I just hate getting looked at in that way.
@YashinNashi "The fact that people exist who know it as an insult and not as a reference to homosexuals means that it is changing." Except that's not I was talking about. People have not stopped using it as the term that refers to gay people. Another term for gay people has not superseded it. That meaning is not obsolete, it is current. And that meaning has not been shifting at all. It's not even phasing out of use. The insulting use of it is concurrent with this - it has not replaced it.
@KonigRodskjegg I think the problem is not so much that people make those jokes. It's that people take it for granted that minorities won't be offended. People should be able to make those types of jokes if they want to, but they should also be understanding if someone points out that they crossed the line.
The question I would like to pose is this: Should we not be offensive at all? If we were to govern ourselves by the principle: "never say anything offensive ever" then we would have to apply this to all possible groupings of humanity. This would be a nice world to live in. A world where division doesn't exist. The problem is people naturally want there to be a division, a seperation. And what of humor? What would be safe in such a world?
@FezzingtonBear1 Same here, I've been trying to stop for a while. It's hard to stop using words I've used for most of my life, but I know it's worth the effort.
@ZJemptv I don't want to shut anyone up. Nor do I think we must make the world perfect before we make it better. But I do think that a sense of scale, of "perspective," is the first step in using reason to solve problems. A rapid-fire delivery may not be the best way to think about these problems. Its appeal is to the emotions. That's effective incitement to action, but has its own negative consequences...
@ZJemptv Sure, you can expect it, but when it doesn't happen, then what? You can expect to have right-of-way walking at a crosswalk, but when a distracted driver comes barreling through the light you might want to take action...unless, of course, you don't mind being roadkill. There are laws on the books about discrimination. If you feel you have a grievance then you have the option to pursue legal action. RE: grad school -- I wasn't talking about everyone, just you.
Teachers? Nurses? Any childrearing? Men are essentially ffed. Family courts mean you as a man pretty much will not get custody. If you did, you're lucky. The ex falsely accuses you of abuse? You don't get your kids, and you get to pay alimony and child-support through the nose; in at least one case, 4 times the amount you actually make. Model behavior men are expected to perform? Pay twice as much as the women for valentine's gift, sacrifice yourself to save women, sacrifice yourself in war.
@juliecranford Because there is a connection. The word 'faggot' is used as a homophobic slur. Even if people are too dense to realize what they're saying, they're still doing harm. Words can be powerful even if you're not entirely aware of what you're saying. When you use the word 'gay' as a synonym for 'stupid' or 'lame' then you're influencing yourself and the people around you to associate homosexuality with something negative. Bigotry is mostly instilled subconsciously over time.
I agree with the majority of what you say. One point that I disagree on, is being afraid of falling into a stereo type. There seems to be a large portion of people who think stereo typing is wrong or something. IMO, this is false. I form my stereotypes by indoctrination and later, experience. They do not apply to everyone perfectly, but they serve a purpose. They are a form of classification into patterns of behavior based on culteral, physical, or manneristic attributes that are observed.
@popgrafix From a sociological standpoint especially in terms of prejudice and discrimination has nothing to numbers. Who is a minority group is a group whose members share distinct physical or cultural characteristics that are denied access to power and resources available to other groups, and are accorded fewer rights,priviledges, and opportunities. It's not about numbers. White male irish imigrants were also once considered minorities.
@76spinoza "Look, I get it. This is a personal issue for you, so you didn't think it through logically." I'll be more inclined to listen to you when you have an actual argument against anything I said rather than baseless implications that I "didn't think it through logically". Support it or retract it.
As a disabled person, it doesnt usually help if I object to discrimination; people tend to laug about it. So I'm not just "overreacting," I'm a joke to these people.
I agree, 100% additionally though it seems, at least to me, that all these separations between people, White, Black, Asian, Christian, Muslim, etc Only helps keeps us divided and continues to allow for a nice comfy environment for bigotry. I personally prefer to see everyone as simply human, White, Black, Asian, whatever = human, Christianity, Muslims, other religions = human, though in many cases with some serious mental issues and lack of reasoning skills...
@LeksServices I believe that is commonly attributed to William Blackstone, and yes I agree. It all goes back to the presumption of innocence which is the cornerstone of western cultures idea of justice. I'm sure there is a little more to it that convicting someone of rape purely on the word of the accuser - but apparently sometimes its not much that is needed. And of course - just having been suspected of something like that (wrongfully or not) forever tarnishes your reputation and standing.
As a "homeless" man I know what it's like to be looked upon with predjudice (actually, I have a home-a tent in the woods). My attitude towards 'normals' is fuck'em! I know that my lifestyle choice is unconventional, so what? The people who don't judge are the only ones worth knowing.
I used to be on a programming based social networking site called scratch. Then I found out about how they had set up their automatic sensor to not publish any comments containing the words "gay" or "lesbian", I wrote them an email saying how just because they were doing it in the good faith of wanting to protect kids from getting bullied, that didn't mean that it itself didn't send the message that being gay was something not appropriate for children. When I never got a response
@LegendaryAsshole Things can be offensive without someone intending them to be. People can simply be ignorant. But that doesn't necessarily make it any less offensive. "What" is said is actually quite important. The differences in *what* people say can be the difference between people saying something flagrantly insulting, or something benign. A difference in phrasing - whether they're insensitive or attempt to be tactful about it - doesn't do much to change this.
As a disabled person who walks with a limp, I was annoyed with someone in high school referring to me as "hop-along" and laughing about it. Seemed ironic to me as he was an amputee and hence was a member of another minority...
@wretcherwretch cool. my principles say that to make someone change their behavior, i have to actually do more than simply expect them to do it. what do your principles say?
A few months ago I was in a guild in an MMO where it was flat-out stated by one of the officers that, "the only thing women are good for is making food and looking pretty". When I took offense to it...it was "only a joke", and "he didn't mean it", so I was just "overreacting" when I demanded an apology. I hate that people get away with that kind of garbage. :(
@SnarkLicker I don't know how this can be so hard to understand. Did you listen to a thing I said? "It seems to me that *you're* the one saying that the word 'gay' has a universally negative connotation." No, actually, I didn't. "Are you sure that's the position you want to take?" No, because I didn't. "If you want to stop use of the word altogether, that's fine, but then you have to stop using it, too." Do you not see the difference here?
I think it's the automatic DISrespect for anybody who doesn't look or act like the majority's classist, homophobic, sexist and racist idea of "normal" that's a big problem. That and the pleading for soft-spoken, boot-licking, uncritical respect on the part of that same majority, whenever it is called out on its crap. As if it is THEY who are being persecuted, even when they have legally protected freedom of religion to hide behind when they spew their hate.
Too many times have I come across this. I still have that fear in new situations, even though most people like me to some extent. I'm afraid that if I let them know I'm gay, talk about my boyfriend, or talk about my disdain for religion, I will offend them, and I will automatically be considered an inconsiderate and immoral liberal freak.
great video zj, i've had to deal with this for quite sometime myself but am very lucky to have awesome friends who embrace all of who i am without question. very lucky indeed. :)
I could simply compliment you on the intelligence and maturity of your video but there are already so many of those already... However never forget that there are many other groups of outsiders who all suffer prejudice and unreasoning hatred and that being an outsider also gives you amazing insight. Ask yourself if you would have the same attitudes and beliefs if you weren't gay. Nice to think that you would but the question can be unsettling if faced honestly.
@ChameleonLost88 Words don't develop alternate definitions for no reason. Homosexual men began to be called "gay" around the beginning of the 20th century as an insult referring to their supposed effeminate flightiness.
And if there were no feminine gay guys, they'd discriminate against us, saying instead of complaining of how womanly we are, "O my gosh, if you like dudes, why don't you act like a woman instead". That's the problem, you can never win with bigots, so even if it were right to accomodate for them, which it isn't, its impossible to do anyway. They'll always latch onto something.
@YashinNashi "This will not stop them from using the word as an insult, but it will attach homosexuality to it." That's the entire point. I don't think appealing to people's sense of common decency is such a foreign concept.
I totally agree you your point about jokes about whites or heterosexuals not being the same. Jokes and comments about a group who is actively being oppressed have entirely different social meaning that can't just be over-looked.
@infideluxe He was roma out of a large sum of money? Or Gypsies prefer to be called "Roma?" I missed the news bulletin where it isn't OK to say gypped anymore, but then again, I've never to my knowledge met a gypsy, and rarely have used the word. This also fits in with my disagreement over intention. I didn't know the etymology of that word (thought it was "jipped"), so is my previous use of it therefore not OK? Are the Westboro children who don't understand "fag" as anything but "sinner" bad?
It's sad that in a country that brags about civil rights some of us still have to fight for them. Sadder still that some groups that've made progress in getting their civil rights see nothing wrong in ignoring or denying the civil rights of others. Someone called it "closing the door behind you." As long as we allow "leaders" to break us up into ever smaller groups, and make us distrustful of each other, they'll be able to use us against each other, and distract us from what they're doing.
@CMrace Wow. I've never had anybody thank me before for anything I commented on RU-vid. That made my day! I just told my kids about that, and all bragged that someone thought something I said was helpful. Thanks for giving me the feedback! I'm very glad it was helpful to you. And yes, I do think it was brave of you to have shared, and asked for comments. And anyone who would bitch at you for that is a jerk. (Yes, I pass judgement sometimes. I'm human!)
@Miyamashi I agree with everything you just said except that "most Christians AREN'T homophobes". It depends on where you are. Where I am, most aren't, but there are definitely towns where most Christians (most inhabitants of the town) are homophobes. And if you're talking about across the planet, not just in America, forget about it.
What is your take on gays telling gay jokes? Blondes telling blond jokes? Lawyers telling lawyer jokes? Sometimes the worst perpetuators of nasty stereotypes are members of the minority themselves. You have been consistent, sensible, and honest in every video you have done to date, and I am glad there is such a quality spokesperson as yourself (you don't have to be a member to speak for the group). Keep up the good work.
Thank you for this ZJ. I'm a trans-woman and I have struggled with my belief that everyone should say whatever they want, and how much the discrimination against people like me pisses me off. I've struggled and probably still struggle with jokes at my expense that I just don't find funny because i find them offensive. I feel bad for ruining people's fun, and trampling on people's rights to be assholes. I'm confused, so thanks for setting me straight. Keep it up!
@ChronicDisease18 Yeah, you're probably right. It's not like I need to be finding new meanings for words I don't really even care to use in the first place.
@TechnomancerMorhion The school I went to was old school (he he, pun) and forced me to write with my right hand. Now i'm mixed dominant -it gets confusing.
@Parapon3ra Pointing out victimization is not a "victim mentality". Nobody should have to leave where they live in order to be accepted. Minorities should not be relegated to limited areas in order to live comfortably as who they are. Expecting anyone to do this is unreasonable. Expecting people to be more accepting, however, is not.
@MasauFuku I'm all for irreverent satire&dark sarcasm. I was just asking Pavelserboris to clarify his statements. In any case, ZJ's video isn't specifically, or even mainly, about jokes or humor. It's about members of a dominant group expecting those in the minority to accept every aspect of their behavior without question, or risk being called a liability to the minority group by *members of one's own group,* and a nit-picker with no sense of humor or humility by members of the dominant group.
This video is amazing. As an effeminate pansexual Mexican-American atheist fitting in was never easy. My older brother used to beat me up when I was a kid because he was afraid I was turning gay. My family used to scorn me and talk condescendingly about me very loudly to one another whenever I was around because I'm an atheist. Cops would always stop me and question me because I look Hispanic, even if I'm not doing anything. And people treat prejudice as if it's a thing of the past.
