The second Miquella discarded Saint Trina, his entire plan becomes invalidated. You can't create a world of kindness and compassion if you throw away your love.
Genuinely one of the most profound moments of the DLC for me. Talking to the NPC before reading the cross "You've abandoned what you ought never to have given up. How can you save us, unsalvageable, when you could not save yourself" (paraphrased), THEN reading 'I, here, leave my Love behind' was just a real heartbreaking moment, and also helped me understand that Miquella might not be someone I can help.
He thought basically throwing away his ability to love himself will help him extend his love for everything and everyone else but that led only led him to a unhealthy unempathetic way of going about love.
Even with his love If your forcing people it's still tyranny When he discarded love he made it that he wouldn't be able to understand compassion so his plan wouldn't have worked and he'd be stuck
Miquella's powers work against him. No matter how genuine he is, his ability to literally remove free will will always make people suspicious of him and constantly question their own sense of self. Even if he chose not to use his powers to force people, he will never be trusted.
Biggest sign thqt Radahn was being used was the absence of his horse Which has been said he would never leave. Even learning gravity magic so it could still hold his collosal body. If he is without his horse, then it's not Radahn in control
@@Lufanati I feel a good indicator that Miquella saw Radahn as a prize instead of an equal is that -- if he went through all those hoops to bring a demigod back from the dead -- it'd probably be child's play to do the same for a mundane horse said demigod cherished. But he still didn't bother, because Radahn's preferences aren't important.
@@abdieljove2011Except we could have had an option to choose, or to interact otherwise. It’s been done before. We’re already given a damning amount of choices when it comes to narrative. So, the fact we don’t, here, I think is communicating something. I’d love for them to patch in an interaction, honestly, let us use the Let us Go Together and get the cut dialogue; let us get the cutscene we saw at the end of the story trailer. I really went in, having seen that trailer, and thought we were gonna be able to assist or even guide Miquella and be able to help him win by the end. It feels like I was baited. We’re forced to stop him despite his Age not sounding so different from the other choices we make. All those endings where, we have a reason to not kill whoever is involved. I don’t buy “they can’t do it mechanically to mesh with the base game” when all it takes is a summon sign like Ranni’s, yk? If they wanted to do it, they would have, or still can, but haven’t.
My favorite little detail in the Miquella fight is that the “Heart Stolen” text is yellow and not red. Which implies that having your heart stolen is a victory. However the yellow is a more muted color than the typical “Great enemy defeated” or “Legend Felled” text. Implying it’s not a true victory. Which could correlate to how Miquella’s ideal world of compassion isn’t truly compassionate if everyone is brainwashed. Or I’m just looking WAY too into a string of text.
I think Trina's line "Grant him forgiveness" is meant as a simple addendum to the "You must kill Miquella" line. AKA killing Miquella would essentially be the ultimate forgiveness, preventing him from falling to the same trap and caged divinity that his own mother was in, and letting him pass on to the next life alongside Trina.
An important nuance of miquella is that he is probably aware of that and its the very reason he had to cast St trina away as she was not just a representation of his love for others, but for himself.
@@Blopusanian if I remember right (granted, I'm taking this from an internet comment), he first abandons his doubt (which was likely stopping him from going off the deep end), then he jumps in with both feet and abandons his love, thereby dooming his plan to failure.
Pleanty of people have already touched upon this, but I believe that Miquella's greatest weakness is his eternal youthfulness, and his eternal naivety that is implied to go alongside it. Miquella was an Empyrean with the power to coerce other people into being utterly loyal to him -- to love him so thoroughly as to do whatever it takes to please him. In Ansbach’s own words "he weilds love to shrive clean the hearts of men." And we see the end result of this in the Haligtree Soilders, who are happy and willing to allow themselves to explode in a flash of radiant light. Miquella frames his "Age of Compassion" as a world where everybody is compassionate for one another. But in reality, he is simply forcing everyone to be loving and compassionate towards him -- only cooperating with one another because that's what pleases Miquella the most. We see this demonstrated perfectly in Leda and the other followers of Miquella throughout the DLC. It's a shortcut. Plain and simple. Yes, the end result is *technically* a better world by the simple definition of nobody being excluded or persecuted. But it's only a surface level solution conceived by one who is eternally youthful and naieve. It's also phenomenally shortsighted. St. Trina tells us that godhood would be Miquella's prison, and I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. Imagine yourself, for just a moment, in Miquella's position. You've finally done it. Rahdan is your consort, your charm is in full effect over the world, and the Age of Compassion is well underway. You sit atop it all as the god of the new order, orchestrating every decision worth making for the betterment of those beneath you. Radahn, your constant companion who you once admired for his strength and kindness, waits silently by your side: evereager to follow whatever orders you dean to give him and nothing else -- he doesn't speak or act in any regard unless you ask it of him. Your followers are much the same, living their day to day lives in blissful routine, only ever deviating if you wish them to. The world is finally a better, gentler place. Now imagine yourself in this sittuation for a year. Now ten years. A hundred. A thousand. Imagine being the only individual in the entire world with free thought. Nobody but you ever has an idea or opinion that you didn't give to them. For all intents and purposes, you would be alone. You have your world of love and compassion at your fingertips, but you are alone. You have countless devoted followers spanning the entire world that you fought tooth and nail to conquer, but you are alone. You even have your beloved Consort Radahn, but you are alone. No one to talk to. No one to confide in. It's just you and the unthinking husks that you've turned everyone else into. It's just like Brett said in the video. This would be a hell of Miquella's own creation. And I believe that, given time, this hell would break him. Drving him to once again follow in his mother's footsteps: shattering the order he fought to achieve in a desperate bid for escape. And in doing so, he'd doom the world to an even worse fate. We saw the consequences of the charm being broken on just seven of Miquella's followers and how quickly the group fell apart after the fact. Imagine that on a global scale.
Exceptionally written and thought out! indeed if even Marika broke after a couple thousand years of her order then Miquella would break in possibly a much shorter time. he may even beg for death at the hands of his now free subjects once he breaks his charm again, the world he worked so hard to build would crumble before him. but something tells me he would see the destruction and carnage surrounding him and smile, for loneliness can drive someone mad and seeing so many free souls finally making choices he didn`t make for them would be euphoric, like relapsing from a drug. maybe if he took after Ranni (Ranni has Torrent so they must have spoken at some point and known each other well) and just left the lands between, taking all of the divinity with him then maybe things would have turned out better for him. as Sage Gowry said "I find that the best way to aid the young... is to be forgotten." replace Young with World and you see what I mean. it`s kind of tragic as most stories are in SoulsBorne games. he just wanted the world to be a better place and was willing to do anything and everything to make it that way. but he either ends up stuck in a hell of his own making. forced to go mad and eventually destroy it all just out of pure desperation, or he dies with his consort to be. never to see his vision realized and most likely thinking all of his work, all his sacrifice was in vain. all for nothing. for as messed up the things he did are... I can`t help but feel sorry for him.
This is kind of dramatic. The npcs like leda and the rest still speak and show lots of character. They just love him and will follow him. I can't tell you 100% why miquella becoming a god will be his prison, but it's not because people can't speak to him. It's just won't be natural.
Miquella reminds me of Gandalf’s stated reasons for refusing the Ring. He essentially tells Frodo that he would be an even worse Lord than Sauron, and Tolkien expands on this in a letter. Basically Gandalf’s foundation of mercy and good intentions would be twisted into a kind of insidious “for your own good” tyranny that winds up being far more totalitarian than Sauron’s straightforward use of force and terror. Sauron demands submission or death, but at least he’s honest about it and doesn’t expect you to like it.
@jakubbarczyk4310 Someone made a mod a while back that replaced Radagon with Sauron, and it made me realize that not much changes when you think about how both Sauron and Marika/Radagon choose to operate.
Actually I think it is more like Galadriel when she was offered the ring "In place of a dark lord, you would have a queen. Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn... All shall love me and despair."
I think something worth mentioning is that Ansbach’s personality suggests that Mohg wasn’t always insane. Ansbach served Mohg before Miquella came around, and he’s much more calm, collected and kind than Mohg’s new followers (Varre for example). He even says to the character after dying to Radahn, “Righteous Tarnished, make a world not for gods, but for all men.” He doesn’t even hate the Tarnished for killing Mohg, he just hates how Miquella has desecrated his corpse. That makes me think the way Mohg’s dynasty/cult operates was a result of Miquella’s brainwashing, maybe even in an attempt to encourage someone to one day kill Mohg.
I like to think that, before his bewitching, Mogh and the Pureblood Knights were actually a Dynasty that seemed from the outside to be vile and repulsive, but actually quite benevolent and honest on the inside. I believe that the formless mother only craved wounds of her own, and that it was a “cult” of devotion to a selfless outer god, who would gladly mangle itself to bless those who have been wronged in the world. We don’t see Ansbach slaughtering people for the thrill of bloodshed. If anything, the Mohgwyn dynasty might be just as inclusive as the those of the Haligtree. We see Second Gen Albinaurics with red flesh and omen horns, so it’s safe to say that they’ve also been infused with Mogh’s Omen Blood. That ANYONE can join his Dynasty and will be loved by him. Even if it seems malicious at first glance. And all you have to give is a bit of sheer pain. Not your whole consciousness and free will. Of course, maybe now the Mohgwyn Dynasty seems a bit nasty with how they’re going out killing people. But nothing says that it’s been like that for the entirety of the soon to be Dynasty’s history. We know blood sacrifices were made to Miquella, and I’m wondering if that wasn’t always the case for the Mohgwyn Dynasty, that Miquella desired sacrifices so that he could essentially get himself to the Shadow Realm. Like he needed the bodies of others to recreate his own. And the body we see now in Cocoon is essentially Miquella’s folly corpse, one made of other people so he could get his original body to the Land of Shadow without *truly* dying. Of course, just to pick it apart again. This is all wild speculation though.
Ansbach actualy blames more the enchanment for Moghs death rather that the player, also Mogh cult is welcomly and even loveful to tose rejected by the golen order like albinarics and it makes sense given that Mogh is an Omen himself, and with the dlc we know that the formless mother appears to those who are in need given that in the shadow lands she apppeared to the bloodfiends who just lost everything to Messmer crusade.
The thing that amazed me is how well every aspect of this story works together, starting with Miquella’s curse of eternal childhood, right there you have the entire symbolism of his path: a child looking at the world with a child’s eyes, full of compassion and passion to do something to make it better but also twisted by an immature ego that is so typical of children, prone to unrealistic expectations, passionate fixations, no boundaries or rules and no compromises. Miquella is exactly like I would picture a child with his powers.
Which also wants to use the "bigger guy" as a sword, while seeing him as sort of a white knight in shining armour. He can't see Radahn as a warlord, and probably remembers or even projects a kindness veiled by his charming powers that maybe helped to tame the lion warrior.
The curse likely isn't just physical either...his idea of a lord...it's superficial. Just strength. Not wisdom or mercy...he's smart...but still stunted
Miquella can be best described by the famous phrase “the path to hell is paved with good intentions”. Those who mean well, don’t always end up doing well.
this comes to mind: "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. }
@@ALLALONEI feel like that's more telling of what happened after Marika ascended. She most likely got seen as a saint figure by Hornsent after going through torture, and was taken there at some point in celebration of ascension, when she literally ascended she then murdered all the ones present in the celebration as revenge, and later had Messmer crusade to kill the rest of them.
He’s throwing away his love to be impartial and find the courage to ascend to godhood. It’s misguided sure but there’s no way to know if he could have ascended without casting away those fears and emotions holding him back. He can still usher in an age of compassion without possessing his mortal like emotions. After all his great rune and charm ability were destroyed but when he ascended he gained back his ability and his form.
@@christiancividino455 Not unless he re-merges with Trina, who's basically his love since she's what he threw away into that flower when "divesting myself of my love". So he's basically a sociopath in a God's body from that point on.
@@christiancividino455It's simply because godhood is a fundamentally flawed, cursed concept in this world. Because "absolute purity" is NOT GOOD, and any power that requires it as a prerequisite is a trap.
@@FelisImpurrator Nail on the head, God-hood is indeed a 'trap', and no that is not me making a stealth femboy joke regarding Miquella. Marika also fell for the 'trap' of God-hood and look how she ended up, Miquella in his childish whimsy failed to see the folly of repeating that process would begot another sociopath God missing some critical emotional core that will make their path one of good intentions but awash in blood.
@@XenoJehuty84 Point of order: It's not necessarily that lacking emotions is inherently bad - it's that they abandon EVERYTHING except absolute, dogmatic conviction (no doubts, no hesitation, nothing beyond a singular purpose), and that "purity" is what's truly destructive. Ranni consciously decided to maintain emotional distance (and her entire Age is built on being able to survive an eternity in near isolation among the stars, so as to keep the Elden Ring as distant and unable to influence people's emotions as possible), but despite the fact that she was willing to lie and murder and do all sorts of terrible things, her ending is actually the more benevolent one. It's like the exact inverse of Miquella's - all the traditionally "virtuous" actions created a monster, while all the traditionally "evil and sinister" ones arguably created a hero. So it seems you can act like a sociopath and still do immense good if the reasons are right and the methods are within reason; just don't try to become "pure" or "perfect", because that, specifically, makes you something that just can't belong in the world. This is actually totally in line with FromSoft's past stories. See: The Age of Dark arguably being better than any continuation of the Age of Fire in Dark Souls, even if it's cold and indifferent and uncertain.
Headcanon Miquella is really fucking adhd cuz he’s like eight and just gives up on his projects. The Eclipse, unalloyed gold, the Haligtree, fuck that gotta go become god now bye
That's not what that words means lol I am so fucking sick of reddit. Nascent- just coming into existence and beginning to display signs of future potential. Such blatant disregard for the definition to fit some random fucked reddit theory
@@sour93 If something was stuck in a state of eternal nascence, would it not be said that their curse would be one of never being able to reach fruition? ie, nothing they start ever finishes. I mean, you don't have to agree, but if other people having different interpretations of words than you is this upsetting to you, the internet may not be a great place to spend your time.
@@jeremytewari3346 Honestly this is very close to how I see him. I think he really is as pure and radiant as is said -- I think he's also very childlike in his perspective, not just in his body. I think he truly believes that he can make a better world and is just chasing down whatever path he can take to do so, but he's also unable to see the folly and downfall in his intentions. He's too pure to see it.
I think it’s terrifying how, during the final battle, Radahn’s expression always remains the same. There’s never any hint of joy, anger, pain, nothing at all except for a blank, emotionless stare. I think this is the truest form of miquella’s new world order. Nobody able to do anything at all except mindlessly and emotionlessly obey the will of their new god, and that is truly horrifying.
Yeah Leda is kinda insane. Doubt miquella would have benefited from her killing all of his other needle knights. They went around curing ailments in his name as well.
@@fredv7349 The flavour text for Leda's sword heavily implies that she killed all of them herself. If her actions in game are anything to go by, it's because she thought they'd stray from the path.
I kind of wonder if Leda's the reason why Miquella charms even his genuinely loyal followers. She's a lot less murderous while brainwashed afterall, so I don't think Miq appreciated her purging the 'unworthy' from his ranks.
It's really cool to me how Miquella and Ranni mirror each other. Ranni wants to create what would probably be a horrific age, but everyone would have free will instead of being governed by the Outer Gods. Miquella wants a tranquil and peaceful age, but one where everyone has even less agency and choice than they do under the Outer Gods. Ranni's story is almost like "do the means justify the ends" while Miquella's is "do the ends justify the means." Neat parallels.
How would Ranni be means justifying ends? Her means involved starting the Shattering, among other terrible actions, and her end is removing the influence of the gods, demigods, and faith which caused so many problems for the world. I think you just got the ends and means flipped for who the apply to. I'm iffy on if Miquella should count as having good means, but they are certainly better than Ranni's.
@@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem Agreed. If anything the comparison is that Ranni acted out of selfishness and self preservation with the ultimate result being free will and self determination. Miquella acted out of selflessness and self sacrifice with the intended goal being no free will and complete domination.
Miquella's entire journey started because he wanted to save Melania. By the final fight scene he has so lost his way that all he says about her is that she'll "be remembered". He isn't even trying to save her any more. He's given up on her, gotten over it, and moved on to the next stage of his plan.
I love when you start the second phase Radahn begins to be infused by the red aura of violence and his eyes are clearly shown glistening with Radahn's return to his true self. Pulled out by the glorious joy's of combat. But then Miquella returns replacing Radahn's violent aura with a kinder Golden aura and Radahn's eyes are not seen again for the rest of the cutscene.
Radahn in this state Was underwhealming to me. Not combatatively, he totally overwhealmed me there, but a halfgiant sorcerer taught by aliens who idolized the first war pope and is now Reborn into the body of one of that war pope's deformed children against his will is... underexplored. Both visually and thematically. The final Boss is designwise "Just Radahn again", except with no horse and some small Horns on his ellbow. If not explicitly stated, I wouldn't even have recognized that for Moghs body. And perhaps the complete erasure of Moghs identity is meant to be symbolic, but how much more interesting would it have been to see how Miquella turns and twists things and people to fit his liking. Imagine a much more Mogh-ish body plan, dressed up as Radahn, with Horns cut off and Teeth filed down, with Moghs missing eye being replaced with a Golden eye, but showing scars all around. His face and black skin powdered white to emulate Rahdans ashier taint. There should be something uncanny about him. Show some unevenness and asymmetry in the armour, make clear that it was never meant to be worn by a body this small and with this many bumps. Something that doesn't quite fit right. In the final stage of his life, Mogh grew wings, one of the most universal sign of freedom and a rise to power, and how could you better signify that Mogh fell, was made unfree and equally how unfree Radahn is, by breaking and cutting off his wings, because they didn't fit Miquellas vision. This is where the armour should bulge the most, where the wing scars, the stumps are underneath, but also where the hypocracy of Miquellas Acceptance is displayed the most. Where the true nature of a person clashes with the imprinted design. And again, you can make the argument that Design having won over the Identity is important symbolically. But then have that explored in the background. Show us the Autopsy room in the shadow keep, with Moghs severed wings and excised Horns all over the floor. Bloodied bonesaws and sewing materials, showing where his body Was broken and stretched to reassume the old frame of Radahn. Have a painting of Radahn in there, and a bunch of surgically altered hornsent heads that show some surgeon honing his craft and trying to get the likeness right before attempting his Magnum Opus. Hell, drop ingredients for a "Hefty Bloodflame Pot" or a Bloodflame incantation right there, remarking on "how the countless lacerations Mogh suffered even in death were sure to please the formless mother" or something like that.
One bit that was lost in translation that is really important to Miquella's character, and was pointed out by a guy on Reddit, is that Miquella's speech in the memory is much more uncertain and defensive. "I promise I'll become a god" as in defending his capacity to achieve Godhood, as opposed to declaring "I will become a God". Like a child who was chastised and is promising to do better. Miquella was cursed with eternal youth, but it seems to be as much a curse on his mind and mindset as it was on his flesh. He can't grow older, and he also can't mature. His desires and worldview are idealistic, but childish. He wishes to embrace the Hornsent as much as anyone else, but he doesn't understand the extent of the horrors they committed. He knows the sins of the Golden Order and feels deeply guilty for them, but he doesn't know the reasons why Marika committed those sins. It's telling how there are no Crosses near the Gaols, Bonny Village or the Shaman Village. He never saw the Hornsent's sins, and the reason for Marika's rage. The great tragedy is in the fact Miquella is ultimately a child with too much power, and too much childish kindness. Despite what he asks in the intro of the second phase, as he climbs Radahn's shoulders, HE is the one who does not know sin. He grieves for a world he does not understand.
He actually says "I'm going to become a god". But he sounds kind of shocked almost in it, or maybe excited. I think the memory was just after he received the vision from the Two Fingers naming him Marika's successor. I think he's kneeling before Radahn's throne in the capital as well, and it is empty. I think he's holding on to some childhood promise made (kids ALWAYS remember promises, no matter how much time is passed) and reaffirming it to Radahn's empty chair. I think the rest of your post is spot on, though, especially the parts about Bonny/Shaman Village. I'm not sure about this though, because Leda seems to be aware of it saying, "They weren't saints". But I think the idea that Miquella is ignorant of what the Hornsent did deserves thinking about.
@@the-hermit-arcana It was my mistake in my original comment, I meant to say that in the *Japanese* version of the memory, Miquella's choice of words is far more defensive and even distressed than in english. The precise wording escapes me now, but the difference is something like him saying "I promise you I can become a god" versus "I'm going to become a god." Defending himself and his capacity to become a god, rather than declaring he wil become a god. Another, rather more recent post on r/eldenring, pointed out the chair in the flashback is the same one Malenia sleeps on in the Haligtree, and that it is decorated with lions.
@@leonhighwind2305 Understood. I still think there's a strong possibility he was saying this after being chosen by the Fingers; the process of becoming one as we all know now takes an amount of grit one wouldn't think possible for a child, much less one as "tender" as Miquella. There might have been a measure of doubt whether he could actually accomplish it, hence "I can become a god".
@@the-hermit-arcana It is very much possible that he got the idea of becoming a god in his head after being chosen to be an Empyrean and getting a message from the Fingers! I do like that theory. Doubly so because it means he's ultimately being manipulated by the Fingers/Metyr just like Marika was, adding yet another parallel between them. The idea that his vow with Radahn was essentially a childhood promise is also one I personally believe in. It makes the most sense to me, that they made the promise while Miquella was chronologically young, and he clung to it like a child would, while Radahn looked at the Shattering and took the opportunity to be Elden Lord without needing his half-sibling, ultimately leading to Malenia being sent to kill him to ensure the vow is fulfilled.
My read on Miquellas age of Compassion is similar. He doesn't understand the REASONING for everyone's suffering. He knows it's wrong, which he's correct about, but he doesn't know where the problem comes from or how to fix it. So his solution is to just force everyone to behave, a brute force solution that doesn't address the worlds problems by their roots. He's trying to apply a solution to a problem he doesn't even understand. In this sense, to me he represents a lot of people in real life who do the same. They only really have vague understandings of worldly problems, and so the only solution they can think of is just to brute force the solution. We've all known tons of people who say they'd be a dictator if they were president.
On the subject of Miquella's "perfect compassionate era", you have to ask why he needs Radahn to manifest it. Radahn, the avatar of benevolent, well-intentioned war. A slaughterer, a general, a being who can stop the stars themselves and fight off a war-goddess of rot to the point she deploys the nuclear option, and yet he still survives in some form. It's because Miquella foresees physical resistance despite his omnipresent charm. And he'll need violence to overcome that resistance and enforce his order completely. The slaughter can never stop. Otherwise he would have stuck with St. Trina as his physical manifestation. Contented, sleepy, peaceful, dead-end St. Trina.
I think also Marika's ritual to ascend to godhood requires a Lord of strength, iirc. He's also someone that is like Godfrey, except nicer. He's just aping what his mom did in a "better" way.
@@tvrnished I believe that Miquella actually orchestrated his own kidnapping by messing with Mogh's mind to make him feel increasingly more infatuated with him.
As a member of the Carian royal family Radahns fate is tied with the stars along with Ranni's, its entirely possible that him holding the stars in place while becoming a Rot Zombie was to hold off his fate as promised consort. Our destroying him, one of the pre-requisites for the DLC, both frees his soul and his fate.
good catch! that may be why even affected with scarlet rot, he still manages to use his gravity magic as the last words he heard before being taken over were melania reminding him of their promise.
This made me realize something, Miquella says "If we keep our part of the vow" and the word "promised" is thrown out towards Radahn. I think their union was arranged. Miquella was considered a prodigy along with Malenia. Radahn rivaled his father in strength and his mother in matters of magics. So who promised Radahn to Miquella? The Greater Will did. Decreed by the two fingers that they must be brought together.
@@lykuned makes me wonder how much of Radahn's mind was actually gone. He probably was suffering and not nearly all there, but knowing what would happen once he passes, Radahn would have a strong motivation to stay alive no matter the cost for as long as he can.
@@skrubknight884 yeah, if he was shows why he even though he is nearly dead from scarlet rot, he still has the strength to fight you so fiercely even going to space and crashing down onto earth as a last resort as he knows the consequences if he fails.
Giant point no one is bringing up in reguards to radahn. I see people saying that “no radahn might have actually wanted this!” When what is he going to do after miquella achieves his new age? There will be no more WAR. That sounds like hell for him, since every NPC loves to mention how much he loves war. The real radahn would never want this and his heart has been stolen in my view.
Why else would Miquella pick a battle hungry warlord for his age of peace and compassion? It's the same as Marika. She wanted peace and prosperity and ended up waging war for hundreds if not thousands of years with her warlord Godfrey.
@@portalmanHUN yep but then he had to take on Serosh to quell is thirst of battle and would eventually lose his edge during Marika’s age of plenty, a time of peace. He’s not even mentioned during the Liurnia Wars and the battle with the dragons. You’d think he’d want a piece of that. Eventually Marika removes his grace sends him away until she needs him again. If Miquella parallels Marika, then it stands to reason that Radahn’s path would parallel Godfrey’s, seeing as how he idolizes him so much.
I think radahn made the vow to become miquella's consort without fully knowing what the consequences would be and now he's stuck in this situation because he's just too honorable to break a vow
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” - CS Lewis
Miquella is a child who feels guilty about what his parents did and takes it upon himself to fix it. He is not a villain, he is childhood trauma incarnate. Except he's a child who strayed dangerously close to omnipotence. His logic is that of a child; of someone who doesn't understand the nuances and problems of essentially taking everyone's free will away to "make them nice." Miquella is, perhaps more than any other demigod, a victim of the world he was born into.
I believe that Miquella curse also made his mind forever "youthful". Perhaps he cannot fully grasp the consequences of his actions(like mind control or defiling Mogh body). He is to naive for someone as powerful as he was.
@@ventingpizza9250 That does seem to fit with what we see, his admiration of Radahn from afar, his one sided vow that Radahn possibly didn't even know, and his obsession when Radahn was resistant to his control
Yes, a lot of what we can read of him, and infer from his plans, are extremely childish. Not only does he have the simplistic mind of a child, he's been not only adultified, but deified thanks to being chosen by the Fingers to succeed Marika. He is a child that hasn't been parented, never had any boundaries placed upon him, and has enormous power over people. There's a very good reason child rulers throughout history child rulers had Regents to make decisions for them until they came of a more reasonable age.. children have simplistic minds, no matter how smart they may be, and should never have power over others.
That's what i think too. Ansbach says too, that He doesn't really realises what He is doing to Mogh etc. I think he is brilliant, but naive like a child. If He wants something...He wants it. And i am pretty sure he has not heard a "No" often 🤣
Yeah like a child he can never accept no answer plus you would think he would benefit more having the tarnish as his consort for his age of compassion if he just forgets his obsession with radhan.
this is actually Sauron’s original story. He wanted coordination and harmony, no “friction” or “waste”, and that led him to joining the dark side with Morgoth to gain the power to achieve his ends. When Sauron becomes his own person again, free of his lord, he starts off as a fair being of beauty and light, like an elf from the blessed realm, lord of gifts, with the rings to bewitch others into harmony together, under his guidance. But the 3 Elves who had their rings were able to sense his true intention in that single moment he took the One Ring, and removed theirs before being ensnared, and chose to resist. Sauron originally had no army, it then took him 100-200 years to go to his second option, and gather an army of orcs and some men, who were easier to compel, before he was then ready to attack the Elves and retake as many rings as possible. Miquella is the first incarnation of Sauron, in Tolkien’s mind. But here, it’s not as easy as taking off a ring… which is what Radahn probably did, before Caelid
@@Marikus_Eternal i would never ascribe selflessness with Miquella. His age of Compassion is explicitly his goal, one not shared by many of the people he dominates. Abusing others to attain ones' own goals and then discarding them when their usefulness is at an end. His Compassion is Tyranny, he wants to rule over a world of sheep. This is his vision and dream, which he enacts solely for himself and perhaps his Sister
Damn, literally just finished the Messmer video and thought "no way he's already gotten the next out" well, lo and behold 45 seconds earlier it went up
In the end his order was the same as marikas. A world of horror under a veneer of gold. Led by a golden god and a redheaded lord. The tragic cherry on top is that with what we now know of metyr, his "unalloyed gold" never stood a chance. The greater will never had a hand in the golden order to begin with.
This puts into perspective with the other Outer Gods, they’re not trying to impose themselves onto the Golden Order, they’re trying to fill in a vacancy position.
His decisions mirrored Marika's almost exactly. She too had a gold without order...in the beginning. How long would it have taken Miquella to make Elden Ring 2.0? Not long at all.
The greater will was stated to have left the lands between and the golden order AFTER the shattering.Unless it's a retcon,Marika had metyr and the greater will behind her divinity
@@baldrofasgard4793I think the greater will was BELIEVED to abandoned everyone during the shattering but in actuality it was far longer then it was believed that it didn’t even create the golden order or lead Marika to become a god that was it’s daughter the mother of finger who just did what it was instructed by it and then tried to wing it when it no longer contacted it
@@baldrofasgard4793It's a reveal, not a retcon. Even in the base game the 2 fingers are revealed to be acting on old orders and not actually be relaying messages concerning current events from the greater will like they claim. The DLC reveal is that the 2 fingers were an additional step removed from even that, Because Metyr was the only being which ever had any actual contact with the "greater will" entity, and the 2 fingers were actually relaying messages from Metyr. And since Metyr is now on the other side of the shadow realm veil, the 2 fingers haven't been able to update their orders since that happened. Which means that when something unexpectedly goes off the script Metyr gave them, they got stuck. trying to contact Metyr for an update. The real question now is when exactly Metyr lost contact with the greater will. Because it's implied that Metyr hadn't been able to contact the greater will since before Marika became a god, and/or before selecting Marika as an empyrean. Which would mean Metyr was acting on old information as well.
Miquella’s life is a Greek tragedy. He has the power to compel love, whether freely given or by his enchantment. The thought of someone rejecting him was so emotionally damaging that he vowed to have the person even to the point of giving up everything just to have them. Wicked but we can’t imagine being a being that knows only love from everyone who lays eyes on him, and how insane it would seem to finally come across someone who is resistant.
It makes one wonder if he's ever had a genuine relationship formed on mutual fondness, or if his charming powers are just "on" all the time and he gets adoration from everyone just for existing. If that's true, then it's likely he's never known what a healthy relationship is like, even from those closest to him. Sad.
What an awful erasure of Miquella's character to forget everything that was set up in the base game and make it all about "Whoa rejection, nah" also Radahn consented anyway, judging by everythnig we know and even Ansbach dialogue.
@@CreativeUsernameEh I mean we know he wants to make a world where everyone loves him and be under his spell. What I said him expects everyone to love him completely fits with this.
Miquella: “Sorry, Trina you’re gonna have to go.” St. Trina: “You’re throwing me away? I’m literally your kindness.” Miquella: “Exactly you might try and stop me.” St. Trina: “Wait! How are you going to create an age of compassion if you throw away your love?” Miquella: “Look at me Trina.” (St. Trina looks at the softest boy imaginable, he’s like a cinnamon roll or something) St. Trina: “Dammit, you’re right.” Miquella: (Drops St. Trina down the hole)
I like to think that he charmed even those he abandoned but st Trina still knew better and loved Miquella enough to speak truth, which you can hear from her. What she says is chilling but she says it out of love, which eventually becomes a reliable message of truth. In that way, you can tell...Miquella didn't become greater after leaving St. Trina. He left the better side of himself behind and became a narrow minded god. This is true even though St. Trina had to some extent disturbing powers that can be viewed as sinister and poisonous. But it turns out...Miquella is more sinister and poisonous than St Trina ever was when he tried to become a perfect god who can inspire love and compel love on a vast global scale.
My personal interpretation is that St. Trina isn't just Miquella's beloved, she's the personification of his very capacity to love. That love isn't just his love for others, but also his love for himself. It's why even after being discarded, she still seeks to protect and forgive him; to save him from godhood. To this end, I think Miquella didn't originally intend to discard her. Rather, as he continued to walk the path to godhood, he began to have doubts. He began to hesitate or even fear what would happen when he became a god, and these feelings stemmed from his own love for himself. He didn't want to subject himself to that prison. However, his determination outweighed that, and so he made the decision to cast away his love entirely along with all of his doubts, because he couldn't afford to have any hesitations about his goal.
I agree with you overall. I also think, as an eternal child, he has the naivety of a child. An unused dialogue from him in the base game says: If thou covetest the throne, Impress my vision upon thine heart. In the new world of thy making, all things will flourish, whether graceful, or malign. It is a grand thought, but ignores the question of 'what if one thing flourishes at the suffering of another?' A complex, struggling world further bound to the naive wishes of a child. Ansbach is right: there is nothing more terrifying.
I also think being the child of an actual God has a way of shaping ones thoughts and personality in a way mortals could hardly grasp outside of seeing its twisted nature.
@@SecretMarsupial I agree. But I actually think the basegame item descriptions were still being faithful to Miquella’s character. He makes a switch, a turning point….And that was Trina. Lemme explain: He never wanted anything to do with Marika, or the golden order. Tried to grow his own Erdtree, ditched Fundamentalism because it did nothing for Malenia’s Rot, dabbled in many ascetic and spiritual practices like Godwyn’s Eclipse which involves Death (which contradicts the principals of the Golden Order). But, ultimately, it all fails. He failed to surpass the Erdtree, he failed to finish the Needle to cure Malenia, he failed the Eclipse. All he wants is to “fix” everything. He believes, as brought by his childlike naivety, that everything can be “fixed”. So, he takes one more path. He follows the footsteps of Marika. The one person Miquella avoided his whole life, he found the answer within. He realises that he needs to become a “God” to enact his Order of “Compassion” becuase it clearly worked with Marika. The only issue is, one cannot create an Age of Compassion if they are to become a God. After all, the very existence of Godhood contradicts the nature of human compassion. The irony of Miquella’s story. He was too naive to realise that abandoning his Love and Compassion, to become “God”, would ironically result in an Order devoid of any real Love. Sure, I agree that him being a son of a God makes him fated into a tragic and ironic life. But I truly do believe that EVERYTHING before he abandons St. Trina is still authentic to his character. I truly do believe he tried everything he could to NOT be above men, and avoid Marika’s Order at all costs, and instead be the “man of the people”…. But I think the Switch was him abandoning Trina after he failed to do everything in opposition to Marika Miquella doesn’t see what he’s doing as something that’s Wrong. He’s just too naive to understand the weight of becoming a God. Of which would contradict the very existence of an Order of Compassion. Sure, there will be compassion. But you, as a God, will have full control over the Love and Compassion people have for the world. Shadow of the Erdtree, and Miquella’s story, really opened my eyes in how I perceive complete and universal Positivity in our world. An idea that I once considered perfect at some point in my life.
An archaic definition of "malign" is "of a disease/diseased". He's likely referring to those like Malenia, who suffer disease, or those "graceless" beings outside humanity, such as the demihumans and misbegotten, not to people that have evil influence. Putting it in opposition to grace reinforces this I think, as in Marika's order they at the least shunned every being that lacked their grace of gold.
Even his weird obsession with Radahn comes off like the kind of one-sided crush a child may have on someone. Just dreaming of this ideal future with them without considering any logistics or whether the person would want that. That’s what his rule as a god would be: a child playing with dolls.
Something I only noticed about the heart stolen death message from this video is that instead of being red like the you died message it is golden like the victory messages. Literally as soon as miquella manages to use his powers to control the player the game shows this as the player themselves succeeding not failing like a regular death
The simplest way to know Radahn's response to Miquella's proposal is to look at his swords. The Greatswords of Radahn say "original" and "before he was the starscourge". The starscourge greatswords say he engraved gravity crests on them. In Carian fashion as Radahn would recognize, Miquella offered his spouse to be swords. Much like his father, Radahn ultimately modified the gift to say "nuh uh". Malenia was sent to retrieve the gifted greatswords, as well as the combative fiance.
Again, you people are transposing parts of Ranni's story unto Miquella's without a any actual in-game statement. The Carian tradition is a very specifically theirs. You essentially remove any uniqueness in the different groups and storylines by simply transposing these parts. Theyre not interchangeable.
@@MrRenanHappy I'm not sure what you mean. Radagon received a greatsword from Rennala as a wedding gift, which he then modified when he became married to Marika. Miquella is their son, so it's not outlandish that he might have known about the tradition. I don't think it's specific to Ranni alone, but rather a family tradition. Or am I missing something?
@@the-hermit-arcana again, Miquella is not a a Carian, and there is nothing mentioning Radahn having received his original swords from Miquella. Radagon changed his to signify his change in allegiance politically.
@@MrRenanHappy He may not be a Carian, but Radahn is, and he's probably aware of the tradition from Radagon. If you're trying to impress someone with a gift, doing so with an awareness of the recipient's culture is a good bet. I think the implication is there for the swords to have been given by Miquella: "Greatswords of black steel wielded by Radahn in his youth. A pair of weapons decorated with a lion mane motif. These were in his possession immediately before his triumph over the stars-the swords of a lord who does not rely on physical strength and gravity alone." Emphasis on "Lord", and "does not rely on physical strength and gravity alone", the very things that Miquella wants Radahn to be. The Starscourge blades from the base game say that he carved a gravity crest on them. I mean it's not definitive but it's believable imo. We're all just theorizing here, no one's trying to trample Ranni or anything. ETA: Also it says he wielded them before he became Starscourge, i.e., before he stopped the stars, possibly to prevent Miquella's eclipse.
the first thing I thought when they all started to call him ''Miquella the kind'' and all being charmed by him was : oh shit we got a griffith final boss for the dlc. I'm really glad I started to read Berserk before the dlc launched , it really changed my view on the game as a whole
@@NagatemTrue, though if we're comparing Miquella and Madara the plans are very similar given that Madara didn't know about the alien army conversion part of the genjutsu
Basically Miquella has the ability to take away your ability to choose for yourself. His biggest flaw is his childlike impatience “But I Want it Now!” mentality. Your ability to chose is extremely important. Imagine if you woke up one day trapped in your still moving body. You get up and get breakfast, but you eat eggs and toast instead of your favorite cereal. You also cancel all of your subscriptions and throw out the food that you love but isn’t healthy. You also quit your job and get another one that you hate. You try to regain control, but you can’t. And what’s more, when someone asks why you are suddenly like this, your lips unbidden praise the master of your prison. That person then agrees to see that prison master. You are desperate to get control back, because you really need to scream.
Miquella's powers work against him. No matter how genuine he is, his ability to literally remove free will will always make people suspicious of him and constantly question their own sense of self. Even if he chose not to use his powers to force people, he will never be trusted.
I love the comparison of Ansbach vs Varre. One wears black, and is respectful and kind. Varre wears white stained with red, and is a cruel fiend of a man. While Ansbach is elegant in his fighting style, Varre uses a barbaric mace imbued with blood to make sure his enemies suffer, and flings swarms of disgusting flies at you.
@@bruuuuuuuuhhhh Varre uses a bouquet of flowers actually, not a "barbaric mace". The flies spawn from the blood swamp in Mohg's Palace, which comes from the Formless Mother.
@@CreativeUsernameEh It's a steel mace resembling a charming bouquet of roses. Each petal has a sharpened edge, leaving the roses perpetually colored with blood.
Wait I’ve just realized that maybe the reason he says Radahn with a bit more respect is because he did genuinely fight for the golden order at first before all the Miquella shit went down
One more thing I would like to point out that can make Miquella's character even more complex. It has to do with his curse: Miquella is cursed with eternal youth. Now, most people simply understand this as Miquella being trapped in a young and fragile body. However, I believe there is more to it. On one hand this curse could mean that he will never reach his full potential. I also believe that his eternal youth affects his mind and maturity. In quite a few aspects of his character and actions Miquella appears incredibly naive and childish to me. There is the obvious one of him believing charming/brainwashing everyone is the same as love and compassion. He seems completely oblivious to the idea that the love he "inspires" in many, or aims to "inspire" in everyone, is no true love at all due to the forceful nature of the charm. His vow with Radahn seems more like an enamored child idolizing his big brother. Yes, Radahn has strength and kindness within him, however he is also a war hungry warrior who strives for conquest. Miquella can not see this part of Radahn however, or doesn't comprehend it maybe. I also believe that the Radahn we face is fully under Miquella's spell and control. I find it hard to believe that a newly revived Radahn would remain silent throughout the entire affair and battle. Lastly, he abandons his love, St. Trina, down in a dark chasm to perish on her own. I myself did not interpret him abandoning his love as a romantic love to St. Trina. Moreso I believe St. Trina was a reflection of Miquella's love for those cast out by the Golden Order. In sleep all are equal. In sleep all can live in blissful dreams of a better world. I think that speaks more to the love that Miquella abandons down in that Crater. To put all of this together. Miquella, to me, appears like a child, which throws away anyone and everything, to achieve his goal of godhood, completely unaware of the consequences of his actions. Completely naive to the suffering he puts on others and the tragic fate he subjects them to like Radahn and others he controls or St. Trina. I still believe his basic intentions are pure and fueled by compassion. I truly believe he dreams of creating a better world for everyone. And yet, does any of that truly matter if that end leaves behind a trail of mind controlled zombies and a god who abandoned his own love? What is a gods compassion worth, if he even abandoned his love, doomed her to waste away and die alone at the bottom of Stone Coffin Fisure?
Funnily enough that's actually supported by Ansbach's dialogue about him confronting Miquella on enthralling Mohg, where as he tells it Miquella genuinely DIDN'T understand why defiling Mohg's mind by charming him and planning on harvesting his dead body for a golem to house Radahn was exceedingly disrespectful to Mohg.
Extremely well put. The dlc truly made Miquella’s curse feel like a curse. I also thought it was super weird how Radahn never says anything through out the fight, not even after death. I mean he’s having a rematch with the guy who killed him in the first place you’d think he’d have SOMETHING to say. But no, throughout the entire fight he never shows any emotion on his face and never says a word. The Radahn we fight is literally a walking meat puppet with His deluded soul occupying a body that isn’t even his. Pretty scary shit. Also my head canon is that Radahn actually did make the promise with Miquella when they were both kids out of complete Naiveté and innocent but he eventually grew up, matured and decided to pursue his own goals. But because Miquella literally can’t grow up, he hung on to it for years and truly took it to heart, which is why he saw no problem with trying kill Radahn (at his poor sister expense) in order to speed along his plans. Through and through, Miquella is immature and impatient child.
I actually interviewed my 8 year old kid over ice cream and asked her what she would do with mind control powers and.. she basically answered verbatim Miquella's goal. She even justified it by saying that "being mean is wrong, and the world would be better if everyone was nice, so it's okay." LOL
Children, even the most intelligent ones, literally do not have the frontal lobe growth to have developed substantial critical thinking or foresight. And he is eternally a hyperintelligent child... So it turns out exactly the way you would expect. The DLC also heavily implies that the entire process of godhood is itself a horrible, fundamentally cursed endeavor. It's a trap. A gateway that requires you to throw away everything that makes you you in order to ascend, leaving only one single "pure" aspect without anything that could possibly provide nuance or restraint. The dose makes the poison. Absolute anything is not good for the world.
Reading "Here, I leave behind my Love." with the music of the Fissure playing was honestly spine-chilling. It really does feel like you're learning something you weren't supposed to know.
I found it even more chilling since I had found the fissure before Miquella's rune shatters and in that case you are blocked from entering by a seal placed by Miquella (which vanishes when the rune shatters). So even before I could enter the fissure, I knew Miquella had left something down there. And given the flowers around the Crest on the Azure coast not far from the fissure, it was not hard to guess what...so before I reached the Crest in the fissure, the big question was "why?" and the answer...terrifying.
Miquella’s compelled bliss reminds me of a conversation from Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World. The Right to be Unhappy is necessary to truly live as it’s the only way a person ever gains the need to grow and improve themselves. By taking that away, Miquella threatens nothing but stagnation, and Dark Souls 3 perfectly shows why that is so dangerous. A world of constant stagnation festers rather than growing.
Whats even more messed up is that even if Radahn resisted Miquella, Radhan's soul was stuck into a body already "broken in" so to speak by Miquella. So he was even more trapped.
Nothing's more annoying than elden ring fans treating radahn as if he's some innocent little puppy when in reality he was a raging war monger who so opposed to changed that he even locked up the stars to stop people's fates from moving. He's probably one of the worst if not the worst demigod of them all
@@cheerlessmarshes2768 Even though I am not sure how evil Radahn actually is, I do have to agree that Fromsoft fans have become increasingly obsessed with treating every character as the "tragic, honorable hero".
@@juicejooos i think most bosses deserve that status of "tragic hero" imo but radahn is far from it. He's just a man of war every part of his being is defined by it that and upholding the status quo (golden order) I don't find any particular reason to classify him as a tragic hero
@@cheerlessmarshes2768No… I would say Radahn is quite a tragic character. He was a ruthless general who fought countless wars, true. But that’s from an outside perspective. For characters that knew Radahn personally, he was very kind and compassionate towards them. He’s supposed to come off as ruthless and evil, but his actions say otherwise. You could say that him holding back the stars, learning gravity magic, making a friend with an albanauric when they’re the most hated race in this universe, are all acts of compassion/love. He’s tragic because despite these acts, he gets nuked from a flower because he realized what Miquella’s intentions were and became a zombie because of it. And then, he gets turned into a puppet by Miquella. This once proud and honorable warrior, the mightiest of all demigods, just becomes used and abused, basically. When we fight him, yes, it’s a younger Radahn, but I don’t think it’s him in his prime. When we fight him, he’s not even there. That’s what makes him tragic. And I may be a little biased because he’s my favorite character, but I hope I explained it well :). Respectfully, of course.
So miquella was asking radahn to be his consort like how when a child says they’re gonna marry you when they’re older and radahn just said yes to shut him up 😂
Thats what I think, honestly. Also: 32:45 "We could only guess at his reasons for saying no." Radahn: Miquella, I know some people in my profession who are into [*sigh*] *that*. But, for the love of Marika, you're my *brother*!
@@jasonbelstone3427 “I know what goes on in the Red Lions locker rooms, when the boys decide who is the real boss of the gym, but you are my brother and this are Lands Between, not Alabama!”
This character made me severely uncomfortable, because I encountered the DLC during a time when I had just gotten back a repressed memory that partway collapsed my mind, and the story itself is reflected in some of my actions when I was younger. Even physically - I'm 33, but I look 16, and I'm sickly. And when I was young, I used to want the few friends I had to be in one place, where I knew they were safe. I didn't manipulate anyone, except by insisting they all join my stupid little club, and they were too introverted to resist some traumatized neurotic pressuring them. I collected them like "dolls," and wanted them all safe under my silly little banner. I felt like I was protecting them somehow. I always had severe abandonment issues, and even today, after some regression from issues I've had, there's still a lot that's naively childlike about me. Nowadays, I'm isolated and stoic, since my partner I was with for 15 years and another friend both died. She was the only one who helped me really even everything out. When I saw what Miquella is doing, the whole time I was saying "Are you crazy? THIS is crazy! It won't end well, how can you not see?" ...took me a while to realize that I knew, on some level, that I was watching a hyperexaggerated version of myself back then. I never charmed anyone's mind, obv., but if I had that power back then, and thought someone was in danger in my paranoia...I probably would have. And the body horror of Mohg's corpse being altered...well, that's what the repressed memory I regained was about. I was brutalized once, in such a way that I didn't have a full inkling that it happened until last month. And Miquella's fixation on Radahn?...my fixation on my partner is no less driving. I could never bring myself to alter someone's corpse to resemble her, YIKES Miqey, but... So for me, this DLC was like a caricature, a delayed wake-up call. As much as I disliked Miquella, I was...seeing a mirror in him. Of course, as the anxiety never really goes away, I torment myself wondering if this realization is enough for me to stop myself if I ever lapse back into the hypervigilant, nervous wreck that I was. I'm very kind and compassionate with the few friends and family I have, I would do anything for them - to the point of flirtation with tyranny if I'm nervous enough about their safety, and most certainly if something has happened to them. I wonder if it's too late for me. It certainly was for Miquella.
Not the best person to take advice from seeing how he's a sociopath. You can admire and understand your own father, or teacher. And if you start to admire less the more you understand, then that means that you admired your projection on the person rather than the person themselves.
@leon3589 Dude, just because a character is a bad person doesn't mean everything they say is invalid. And that particular quote is quite true in many cases. How often is it that someone ignores or downplays a major flaw in someone they admire? How many excuses do people make for those they look up to? How often do people put up with cruel treatment because they're unwilling to upset the object of their veneration? It's all too common, unfortunately. Admiration can be genuine and lead to understanding in a healthy circumstance, but it itself does not preclude understanding.
@@leon3589 Aizen wasn't a sociopath. He was, for all intents and purposes, _right_. Nobody sat on the Throne. The Soul King was just a linchpin with no role in governing the actual goings on of the universe. He learned about the First Sin, and it horrified him. Same as it has everyone else who learned of it. Can't say I would have gone about solving the problem the same way, but really, I can see why someone would consider no sacrifice too great and no act too heinous to go from "no god" to "hey a god, cool." Though Zero Squad would have wrecked his shit, so.
... Oh my god, I never considered that before. The whole "moore is a forager-kin" thing. I always just thought they were business partners, with him selling and them collecting. But now that I think about it, it explains why he is in ill-fitting full-body armour, why he's socially awkward, why he seems to have difficulty speaking, why he's so invested in the Forager-kin's trials that even hitting one of them will get him summoned as a bloody finger... it all fits.
The only thing that rubs me the wrong way is that he fights as a human, both invading you and fighting alongside Lena if you don't tell him to be sad forever (which is a rough thing to say). Gowry, as powerful and wise as he was, both was more articulated than Moore and was barely able to sit like a human being under disguise. I like the idea that he might be a forager-kin, but maybe not a pest, maybe there's more steps to them than we thought...
@@eliasnilsson2784His armour being verdigris is also significant here, since verdigris is the result of copper and its alloys like bronze and brass corroding. So if he is one of the kindred of rot, it’s likely that him wearing that armour caused it to degrade
From the official website's "Who are Miquella's followers?" page, put online thiss 12th of July: "Moore was one of the pest followers of Malenia and her Scarlet Rot." Welp! This answers that!
He can't because he literally threw away his doubts and indecision before that stage. Miquella never gave himself room to consider it the moment he began tossing away parts of himself it was gonna end like this with every bit he lost making it easier to give up the next.
You know, Melania being enthralled by Miquella puts the whole Radahn vs Melania scene in a new light: Miquella forced her to unleash her Scarlet Rot. Throughout Millicent’s questline we hear how Melania constantly rejected her Scarlet Rot. How she staked her pride in her resistance. And the one guaranteed time we see her unleash it is to bring Radahn to heel. The idea that what she valued most was cast aside in favor of her uncaring brother’s goal is grim as hell and paints Miquella as one of the worst characters in the game.
Finally I see someone mention this! It also makes his abandonment of the Haligteee even worse as it's his actions that now causes the rot to spread and destroy it
@@noamias4897 I see the Haligtree as less of a willful abandonment and more as a task he’d return to. I don’t think he intended for Melania to lose like she did. The Haligtree felt to me more like an accident. Did he intend for it to fall apart? No, I think he more or less wanted it to be like the Erdtree is to the Golden Order: a symbol of his order. That’s mirrored by the massive tree figure inside its core. I think Melania’s Rot causing it to decay and Melania not powerful enough to actually kill Radahn were not accounted for. In essence, I think Miquella overestimated Melania’s power, and it threw portions of his plan into jeopardy.
And the fact that he never mentions her once in the entire dlc is really damn sad. Like the base game made them feel closer than any other demigod siblings. Like they genuinely loved each other like a normal pair of siblings would. Melania literally calls herself the blade of Miquella and her dying words are her hoping to see her dear brother again. Then we find out that while Melania was recovering from her fight with Radahn, Miquella was in a whole other plain of existence mass enchanting people and casting aside his humanity to become a god. All while Melania just sits there, rotting and alone, wondering where her dear brother is. Pretty damn sad.
@@MarcellusMaize Yeah. With Radahn there’s a lot of unwillingness with him getting roped in. Miquella saw him as a means to an end, his Godfrey. Melania, however… There are a lot of parallels between Marika and Miquella being drawn in the DLC. Two personalities, a lion-emblazoned consort, an Erdtree representing their faith, and even a war-torn, wrecked world of which they sought to make better. Unfortunately, there is one parallel that as of writing this I just realized: Malenia is Miquella’s Malakith. And that makes her situation a whole lot worse. Marika used Malakith to store destined death, a crucial part to make sure that her order was complete. Miquella, meanwhile, ensured devotion within Melania by sealing her Scarlet Rot. Both of them were used as sacrifices to ensure their order could be fulfilled. Combine this revelation with the fact that many consider Malakith to be Marika’s brother, and it paints a surprisingly horrid picture: That Miquella intended on keeping Melania contained, and her Scarlet Rot entombed within her. Under the guise of protecting her, but in truth to both weaponize and ensure that the Scarlet Rot wouldn’t infect his order. And Melania, like Malakith, is too blinded by both her love and her faith in her brother to see otherwise. I now more than ever feel so bad for Melania.
@@foxofdiamonds2334 damn the parallels really don’t stop 😭. Melania being Miquella’s Maliketh makes so much sense and makes the whole thing way sadder. Both die not knowing that they were betrayed and abandoned by the one they loved the most.
Isn’t funny how Miquella made the Ring of Light a part of Golden Order fundamentalism when it was originally a Death Sorcery. For Reference see: Rings of Spectral Light, Multilayered Rings of Light, Triple Rings of Light Maybe he was doing this so that Godwyn could still be apart of the Golden Order even though he’s turned into the Prince of Death.
Sometimes, I really wish this little fellowship stuck together in the end and Miquella really was the kind and altrusitic demigod he was built up to be, warts and all, even being a friendly NPC who has his own dedicated questline as long as Ranni’s.
imagine instead. you do bring the age of compassion. and if you meet him BEFORE meeting malania, she sides with you. (or maybe fights you due to fearing to be replaced.)
Narratively this would have been an option, miquella was shown through descriptions and the haligtree to be a compassionate demigod and maybe most players would have sided with him given the chance to talk and make that choice. However miquella threw away his love and his doubts, this isn't an order built to be compassionate, this is order built to force compassion, the reason you can't side with miquella is because at that point to miquella, your character as the soon to be lord of the golden order is his final boss, you can't talk it out with him because he has no compassion for you that isn't forced through his grab attack
Well they did stick together, and he probably would’ve been the kind god he set out to be. He technically also had a very long questline for us. But we were a threat to his world of compassion, which likely would’ve begun the second we were dealt with.
@@stevsux4442 You're not including the fact that Miquella was still a little dubious before the DLC's events. Some item descriptions called his power with negative descriptions and some feared Miquella's ability to violate your consent. Thing is in From soft games, there's not a single character with incredible power that is 100% just. Every single god or king or whatever has done at least 1 incredibly shitty thing
I mentioned this in the Messmer video, but Miquella and Messmer seem to have a duality: Messmer inspires loyalty genuinely, with people following him willingly no matter the background, but for the violent and hateful purpose of Genocidal, torturous slaughter. Miquella mind controls people to follow him, no matter the background, but does it for the benevolent reason of cleansing old sins and creating a loving, compassionate society. However, despite using opposite means for opposite ends, their effects on the world are the same: a Crimson Massacre. Miquella sent malenia to kill radahn for his soul, and in doing so, the entirety of cailid was covered in scarlet rot after radahn's soldiers were massacred. The same Crimson Massacre, the tyranny of messmer's flame, befell the Hornsent, as we see in the trailer. No matter your means to no matter what end, exerting your will upon a world that does not want it always results in scarlet slaughter.
You literally stole this from the same goddamn video you watched (messmer one) this is literally what fatbrett says word for word in the video itself. Yet here you are saying «I mentioned this over there but now I’m gonna mention it over here hurr durr» like what?
@@buffoonustroglodytus4688 some people have similar ideas about things before watching videos. Calm down dude. No one’s ideas are original we are all working off of the same base of information.
If you follow berserk and the deleted scene from it, it’s basically about spiral of good and evil. Basically every reign of God is filled with mostly good thing then it will spiral downwards. When Griffith sacrifice everyone he did a lot of good afterward with the power but he also accepted that his reign will spiral out of control and caused misery. Guts on the other hand reject all this and want to break the spiral so to speak, he would revel even against the gods knowing that what’s to come would be hard struggle for the whole world. Those same duality that we got with Ranni and Miquella, also Miquella is obviously half inspired by Griffith while Marika is another half of the story of sacrificing a lot of people to achieve godhood like Griffith. Miquella obsession with Radahn instead of of choosing unnamed tarnished as his champion also remind me of Guts and Griffith relationship.
@@buffoonustroglodytus4688 He mentioned their duality of means, saying how they seem to be foils for each other, I expanded upon that in the messmer vid comment, saying that despite their differences, they had the same effect on the world, and there's a lesson to be learned from that. Go read my comment before you accuse, please.
Honestly, I feel like there is a different interpretation to Miquella's world. He doesn't really need to mind control people forever to create an age of compassion. If he does so for ten, twenty maybe even a hundred generations, he won't even need to control people. Everyone will exist in a world where nothing but compassion, understanding and unity has existed since the age of their farthest ancestors. In a world like that, people wouldn't need to be controlled to be compassionate because they wouldn't know anything but compassion. At most Miquella would only have to mess with rotten eggs that appear every so often by controlling them a bit, maybe without them even knowing they are being controlled. Maybe that's what Saint Trina meant by saying to give Miquella 'forgiveness'. Because at the end of the day, the only slave left in a world like that would be Miquella himself. He would be forever bound to be the warden and maintainer of that perfect world. To ensure that others would have the age of compassion he sought to bring about. Because of the guilt he felt for the sins and the curse of his family. He wanted to take all the pain and all the sin and everything bad onto himself for the good of others, even if that meant his eternal suffering and enslavement. Saint Trina didn't want the Tarnished to kill Miquella because she thought his order would be ultimately wrong or evil. She did so because she didn't care if people suffered, as long as the one she loved didn't. She would rather the Tarnished give him forgiveness and rest in death than allow him to exist enslaved for eternity just so others would not suffer.
That's a very interesting and unique take on Miquella i've never seen before, i think its quite underrated actually, gives another shade of tragedy to Michella's character. Thanks for sharing!
@@fishyfish1917 Thanks, I just thought of that because it seemed to be the logical conclusion of Miquella's plan after enough time had passed. Although it isn't necessarily something the creators would have really intended to convey, although maybe they did wish for there to be many interpretations to the story that they didn't think of themselves.
When I heard Miquella abandoned his love, it reminded me of that line from game of thrones. Love is the death of duty. Maybe him abandoning his love means he won't change his mind about his age of compassion at some point like Marika did with the golden order.
I remember at least one person making a good argument that saying ‘love is the death of duty’ just makes shit rulers if they don’t care about the people they rule over (however they’re chosen)
@@Hello-lf1xs In a statement like "love is the death of duty" caring about the people you rule over is part of your duty; it's built into the feudal contract.
Him discarding St. Trina is almost like him cutting off part of himself so he could brainwash himself to never change his mind or waver. St Trina was his free will, the part of him that would rather die than do what needed to be done, the part of him that knew he needed forgiveness
One other reason to believe that Radahn wasn't aligned with Miquella is this. Radahn went to great lengths to make sure he was able to ride the horse he loved the next time we see Radahn he isn't on his horse instead Radahn is in fact the horse in the situation with Miquella being the one to go to great lengths to ride his so called horse.
Griffith is objectively evil so commenters are OF BELOW AVERAGE INTELLIGENCE (thanks youtube wonderful perfect website run by the most beautiful, kind people ever)
33:06 this sentence helps to sum up my disappointment in the lore community at the moment. I’m unsure why everybody refuses to look at this from a more nuanced perspective. Miquella consistently did NOT get what he wanted, and that’s shown to us with almost all of the info we get about him in the base game. He was bright and hopeful and had that child-like faith, and through constant failure he was broken down slowly. He literally drove himself insane, and divested himself of everything that made him the most qualified to succeed Marika. He slowly turned more cruel and maliciously manipulative as he essentially destroyed himself trying to become what he saw as fit for godhood. When I found the cross that said “I abandon here my love” my heart sunk and that’s when it clicked for me having the context from the dialogue of the wandering spirit. Miquella’s story is a tragic fall into depravity. He wasn’t some childish brat, he’s a complex character with complicated motivations… almost like he was written by George R. R. Martin and/or Hidetaka Miyazaki…
@@thedoomslayer5863 Nor should he be. However Miquella is also not at all that 1-dimensional. ALL of the demigods in Elden Ring are very complex and nuanced characters, so idk why Miquella seems to be excluded from that in the initial discourse. It’s frustrating to watch and listen to as a fan of the character. Mohg and Radahn are as bad as Miquella in their own way, and that’s kind of the point. Messmer is one of the more sympathetic characters in the setting, but he’s still a ruthless warlord guilty of committing genocide. I just wish more people gave Miquella more mental energy because he’s such an interesting character
@@cjh.1920 How are mohg and rahdahn as bad as miquella? Mohg keeps to himself, and except from contacting the formless mother, most of what he does is probabaly under influence from miquella. And Rahdahn likes war and fighting, but he is not malicious.Out of all the demigods, he is ironocly the kindest (genuine kindness, not Miquellas fake kindness) and the most peacefull. Unlike Miquella, he is loved by his siblings and respected by everyone, even when he is the thing stopping their plans from coming to fruition, without need to put them under a spell. He stopped the stars, the most likley reasons for this either stopping his fate of becoming a tool for miquella or to stop creatures like astel from falling on the poople of the lands between. On a scale, Miqulla is right up near the top, even tho he wasnt always that way
@@dylanburston7453 mohg kills his own nobles and has a entire blood cult. radahn still loves war and the golden order which i hope you can see the issue with. neither of them are better then miquella in any way
Even during his long period in Caelid as a mind-rotten beast who eats corpses like a fucking animal we can see Radanh using his ability to not crush Leonard and hide him during the fight. Even in that moment he's fighting and taking care of the last piece of his past life. Here? That is a Frankenstain monster of a stealed body and a stealed soul.
The sad thing about the "curses" of the Golden Order is that in a way, each child's affliction turned out to be an asset; a mark of their true selves. Malenia was the literal goddess of rot, the goddess of fungus and decomposers, returning organic matter to the earth as if life itself was trying to course correct for Marika's original sin of removing death from the world. But Marika led her to believe her powers were twisted and an affront to nature. As the embodiment of perpetual youth and his ability to spread love, Miquella could have been a god of love and beauty, an Aphrodite-esque figure. But again, he was judged as flawed, discarded to live in the shadow of Marika's "perfect" son Godwyn, and forged to wage war with his own siblings. The pressure to live up to such suffocating expectations eventually broke all Marika's descendants.
Agreed! People keep forgetting that after the Shattering Marika basically told her kids you will be sacrificed unless you become a god or lord. That desperation would haunt them to their ends.
Thats an idealistic way of seeing rot, to be honest. Though, yes, rot as such is a part of nature, to be touched by the outer god of rot is undeniably a curse as we can see from caelid, the lake of rot, and anyone who suffered from scarlet rot, including Malenia herself, as well a Miliscent. You don't need to be a daughter of Marika or feel pressured by her to reject such an awful sickness and deny it taking a firmer foothold in the world.
Yeah I partially agree, partially disagree, here. Aphrodite could be jealous and more sinister than Miquella and in more obvious ways… she also caused the Trojan War. But I really do wonder about Godwyn… are we sure he didn’t have a hidden curse, or twin? What’s with the fish imagery? Could he have secretly wanted to die or to bring death back, with Ranni?
@@nonamegiven19xx I'd argue that's the result of rot not being allowed to happen naturally. Rot is part of death, decomposing old life to feed new life to allow for change and evolution, but nothing new could come to the Lands Between because death was gone, so therefore rot could only destroy, just like death could only cause roaming corpses. It's not because death or rot are inherently evil, it's because when you repress an important and necessary thing, it's going to get out anyway in a twisted form. Malenia's rot, in the absence of death, had no healthy avenues of expression, and could only be completely destructive. And what happens when things can't really die and can't really rot away? You get Godwyn.
I think you are are very close to the point, and are fully correct about Malenia. I think that you have misinterpreted Miquella, however; that's too surface level. It is extremely important that Malenia and Miquella are twins, and their curses are likely twinned as are Mogh/Morgott and Melina/Messmer. This is mechanical through the association of St. Trina with poison (Thiollier and Narcotics) and Rot/Poison being mechanical twins. How this manifests thematically is that while Malenia represents physical rot, the corruption engendered by usurping the natural flow of life and death, Miquella represents spiritual poison. An eternal order with an eternal God-Empress never allows the next generation to control their own lives, to guide the world in their own image. It is eternally in Marika's image of the Golden Order, and Miquella represents the will of the next generation lost and spiritual decay within the Golden Order. They can never fulfill their potential, they are forever nascent. He would likely have been fated to forge his own divine order, following after Marika's, except that Marika could not let go. That's why every plan of his that's incompatible with the Golden Order fails, Miquella is cursed to fail to enact change to the Order.
When St. Trina says “grant him forgiveness.” I think she is saying you need to kill him so he isn’t in “caged divinity”. So killing him is forgiveness for all that miqeulla has done by killing him instead of letting him become a god you save him from the “caged divinity”
Wait a minute. Miquella abandoned his great rune, thus breaking all the enchantments he had placed on his followers. Then when he emerges from the gate of divinity, he says, "Lord Brother, at long last, you are returned" like he's JUST NOW meeting the reborn Radahn. So does that imply that in the interim, Radahn wasn't bewitched? Then wouldn't that mean his choice to fight us means he actually chose to be Miquella's lord? I'm not sure, just food for thought.
There is nothing more terrifying than someone with the mentality of a child with absolute power and sway over the minds of men. The Griffith parallels are obvious but both really exemplify holding on to childish ideals without the ability to change - in other words, stagnation which is quite clear in what it represents from a Shinto perspective. Although Radahn also represents stagnation in some sense, he really tried to resist Miquella and I find that admirable.
Miquella's sacrifice makes me think Ranni's plot was a way to circumvent the spiritual sacrifice portion of ascension. She killed her body but it seems she managed to get away with killing Godwyn's soul instead of divesting herself of any of her spiritual aspects. Which might make the Night of the Black Knives and the resulting consequences worth it, given the Age of Stars results in a god who retains her capacity to love others, feel frustration and annoyance like anyone else. Far better than what seems to be the psychologically mutilated Marika and Miquella.
Ranni also doesn't want to be god over the Lands Between. SHe wants to leave the bounds of the world, leaving the people in a "World of night" or a world where there are no gods to influence their decisions. It really is the best ending. Godwyn had to die, anyway, because he was the next in succession in the Golden Order. He would have continued it with his reign.
I also just think that Miquella originally wanted Godwyn to fill Radahn's role in his plan, which may be one of the reasons his soul in specific was targeted and destroyed, the rite requires a soul. It's probably also why Miquella wanted to try his eclipse thing to bring Godwyn's soul back--so that he could have him as lord. Godwyn was both mighty and "Sweet"(according to one of the finger crones) and much beloved by many, in the Golden Order and without. I think Ranni and Radahn might have been aware of Miquella's intent to use Godwyn in this way, which is why one of them killed his soul and the other stopped the movements of the heavens, preventing the eclipse. A shame that Radahn then became the next suitable candidate for Lord in Miquella's eyes.
@@the-hermit-arcana I don't think a soul is specifically required for miquella's ascension. I believe the whole reason for killing radahn and grabbing his soul was that miquella couldn't get close enough to actually charm Radahn. But once he was just a soul he was easier to charm, especially when stuffed in the body of Mohg, who was already charmed.
@@danieldancza6171 He needed to put Radahn's soul into a new body. Godwyn's soul was destroyed, he didn't exist anymore. I also think it might have been him, because Godwyn was Marika's favorite, and she has many other parallels with Miquella. It doesn't really matter in the end, it's just something I think about when discussing it.
I hate how much it just feels like Ranni gets everything handed on a sliver platter of "Your the best! and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong" Sorry but it fucking bugs me after seeing Miquella basically destroy himself and throw away his own emotions, to see that Ranni gets to be even more perfect Cause from what everyone says at this point "It's all necessary and her plan fixes everything" Even though it fixes jack shit outside of the fucking outer gods Thats all it does, it doesn't improve anything, and she is LEAVING, she gives them freedom at the cost of leaving the lands between a fucking shithole And i am so tired that people just ignore how little she actually cares about the people who can't rebuild right now or even enjoy that "Freedom" she promises, that i sometimes want to go frenzied flame out of SPITE for her, and just burn her stupid doll body to ash
The DLC's overarching motifs seem very pointedly critical of a lot of religious imagery and ideas that people are culturally conditioned to just see as good by default. Asceticism, self-sacrifice, purity, devotion, duty... These things are treated as high virtues by most religions. And yet in this DLC they're explicitly the cause of much of the suffering in the world. Self-denial through asceticism and total self-sacrifice, as well as devotion to a person or a higher ideal, lead to dangerous fanaticism and misguided tyranny when taken to extremes. To remove one's own doubts and all things of the flesh... is simply to make a monster of yourself. Purity is fundamentally a curse, and a prison - to be a god is to be Absolute, and to be absolute is to be something that is anathema to all that life is. Seeking perfection entails imposing tyranny upon an inherently imperfect world. Likewise, absolute loyalty makes it easy to justify all manner of atrocities, like with Leda. Trina is proven right. Godhood is a prison, and the process to achieve it is self-destruction. Total denial of the self is nothing more than a trap. Better still to embrace the world as it is, impure and imperfect and full of mortal failings, than to be ruled by a perfect monster.
The loyalty thing reminds me of the movie "Brazil", an Orwell's 1984 comedy adaptation. One of the core themes in the movie is how none of the characters are explicitly evil, they're just following orders from the department higher than them. And that department is just following orders from higher than them. And they're just following orders too. Everyone's "just following orders", and so there's not really anyone to blame for the obvious tyranny and atrocities committed to the characters in the film. You never get to meet the theoretical guy at the top actually giving the orders, and there might not even be a guy at the top. In an interview, the director talked about how it was a critique of blind loyalty, how it's used to shirk the blame. How people will use loyalty as a justification for their crimes. "Then they don't have to feel bad about all the evil they committed, because they were just following orders, like good little N@zis", to paraphrase what he said. One scene that stuck out to me was a scientist who tortures a guy to death, then immediately after greets his daughter right outside the lab room like nothings wrong. It was just a job to him, and he says as much.
It's a thing in the whole game, too! I mean, Marika is just a mockery of Christ Crucified. The Golden Order is divine and evil. We end the game by killing a god, and depending on the ending we replace it with something else or abandon divinity and providence as a whole (I think Ranni's ending is quite nihilistic - in a very good way). I love the way this game uses mythological and fantasy tropes to criticize religiosity. It's done very subtly, but it's clearly there.
@@mothgoth0 Oh, absolutely. That's actually a lot of why I'm a Ranni ending diehard. Better uncertain freedom than certain oppression. The same theme is in many of FS' games. All the core Souls ones at least. Even Armored Core. FromSoft has always had an anti-authoritarian, anti-dogmatic streak in its storytelling.
Fromsoft definitely doubled down on the Griffith similarities with this DLC. Although, I think it’s clear that Miquella’s motives are more sympathetic than Griffith’s.
@@bruhed1117I think the difference is that Griffith is entirely driven by his pride and ego without any genuine altruistic motive. He has no qualms with creating a perfect kingdom for himself at the cost of the rest of the world. Miquella’s plan of course is influenced by his arrogant belief that he knows better than all and that his world is better than that guided by free will but it’s done out of the belief that it will improve the world. Miquella wants to better the entire world while Griffith could ultimately care less as long as his perfect kingdom exists.
Marike the betrayer is closer to Griffith IMHO with the tower of bodies and blood. Miquella tried to do the same thing with her blood, and when we’re there she hasn’t discard nothing but Mogh and herself. There’s a hint that Radahn might consent as long as they can beat him in combat.
I think a great deal of the discourse I have observed related to Miquella seems to be fixated on his manipulation and utilization of his powers to compel others, and how the implications of this are that Miquella is essentially verging on being a kind of evil mastermind who controls everyone he can and was using Malenia, Radahn, Mohg, his group of followers etc. This is particularly egregious with the belief that Radahn must surely be a kind of puppet for Miquella in the final boss fight, though no clear indication of this is readily apparent. While I am not going to argue that this overarching view of Miquella isn't a fair interpretation (these games thrive on being open to many perspectives that can be rationalized effectively), what I do want to emphasize is that I think a central thread of Shadow of the Erdtree's narrative revolves around gaining insight into the ambiguity of Miquella's mentality, and the greyness that surrounds his influence, powers and role in the world. It felt particularly cheap to just label Miquella as some kind of Griffith-clone before the expansion came out, and I still think plenty of people are falling into this trap, especially in relation to the Radahn reveal (it is more justifiable to call Miquella out for how he used Mohg and his followers to some degree, to be fair). Miquella clearly utilized his powers in ways that we would consider to be morally or ethically questionable, but what I want to posit is that the story of SotE continually stresses that Miquella is NOT doing this for the sake of control or to be an all-powerful deity, but for misguided good intentions defined by naivete. These desires are misguided because Miquella's mentality seems to fundamentally still be that of a CHILD, which fits his curse of eternal youth, and feeds into the deep-seated naivete and foolishness that led him to discard his doubt, vacillation, love and fear (Saint Trina in particular, his compassion personified). I think this could also very clearly tie into his fixation to have Radahn as his consort from a young age, and desire to adhere to a vow that may no longer apply under the post-Shattering circumstances (which could be why Malenia and Radahn's factions were in conflict during the war). Much like Messmer, Melina, Malenia and the Omen Twins, Miquella's curse also surely must have a distinct purpose, and this is how I think it presents itself, as a permanent youth that invariably warps his mentality and judgment. Something I don't think enough people are latching on to is what exactly Miquella's memory, the final cutscene of the expansion, signifies. I understand that many felt that it was initially a bit underwhelming as the capstone to the grand narrative of SotE and Elden Ring as a whole, but I think there's more to unpack from the scene that many realize, it is not as anticlimactic as it seems, holding more meaning for the story than one may initially assume. It felt to me that Miquella's memory displayed an air of desperation and FEAR over the self-appointed duty of becoming a god (just listen to the way he says "I'm going to be a God," the tremor in his voice), thus wishing for a strong figure who he looked up to in Radahn from his youth. The Remembrance of a God and a Lord states Miquella saw in his brother "his strength, and his kindness, that stood in stark contrast with their afflicted selves" and thus wanted him as his Lord and king consort, likely due to this consternation he felt. We see throughout the map in the journey through SotE that Miquella's crosses show what he left behind, whether it be his physical body parts or conceptual characteristics, like the aforementioned Love/Saint Trina that was such an important discovery in contextualizing Miquella's story, even if it was part of Thiollier's side-quest. Well, the final cross, found in the spiral staircase of Enir-Ilim, and surely the last part of himself that he left behind, states "I abandon here all my fears." Miquella feared becoming a god, I think he knew how problematic his methodology of leaving behind the very love, compassion, and self that made him a potentially great ruler for the sake of spiritual apotheosis was a "cage of divinity" as Saint Trina states, yet his child-like naivete meant that despite his reservations, he still manipulated others and went along the path to godhood, not with malevolence or selfishness, but with a genuine but flawed hope or sense of duty that it was for the greater good, to correct the Golden Order's historical mistakes. What he did not comprehend was that the very criticism of Marika's Golden Order and the horrible things she perpetuated as a god would likely be repeated by him because of how he chose to ascend to his own godhood, the cycle he would be maintaining by utilizing the Gate of Divinity as she did. It would never truly have been an age of compassion, and he would have repeated the same mistakes as his mother did. I think this is another potent thematic thrust of SotE's narrative, the parallelism between Marika and Miquella, especially since we find out significant elements of the truth behind Marika's beginnings and possible incentives to become a goddess (From being critical of godhood and immortality is nothing new in their video games, it's a theme they enjoy exploring, and have done so again here). Miquella was paving the same hellish path, even if it was being done with good intentions, because he was at his core still functioning with the mentality of a precociously misguided child, believing despite his reservations and apparent fears that this was the best way forward to a better future. The fear he shows in his memory, the support he seeks from an older brother he looked up to in Radahn (along with the fruitless desire he had to help Godwyn's situation in the base game or his reliance on Malenia to be his sword and dirty her hands in battle for him) all show his disposition as not some manipulative antagonist bent on control, but as a tragically misguided child seeking to use his gifts for a greater good that cannot be achieved with the methodology he has chosen. To me, Miquella is therefore another example of the complex and grey kinds of characters both Miyazaki and GRRM enjoy writing about so much, and I think his curse of youthful innocence, the memory we see and glean information from, along with the evidence of the path he chose and the mistakes he made along the way as he left so much of himself behind at his Crosses within the Shadow Lands, point to a figure that is more deserving of sympathy than many players are willing to give him as it stands. As I said, I do think being critical of what Miquella has done is very justified, but it's worth looking at his overarching story from various angles, and realizing that this may be a more tragic tale than it initially seems to be, and he truly may have wanted to "make the world a gentler place," he just went about it the wrong way, steeped in the immaturity that exemplified his cursed existence and the beauty and terror it invoked in others.
Beautifully said, and I hope more people read it and think about the points you made. In the end, all of Marika's kids were cursed in one way or another in life-defining ways deeper than just the physical aspects of their ailments.
I'm going to paste my comment arguing why Miquella is evil, but I want you to know that after reading your comment I should probably change that to "evil OR too childish and naive enough to not understand the negative impacts of his actions" I doubt the purity of Miquella's original purpose. We don't know what his "age of compassion" means, but if him bewitching, compelling affection and manipulating is part of his "compassion" then Ansbach's right, Miquella is a monster and his order is corrupt. A world full of slaves and one ruler might be gentle, but it is far from altruistic and any who is determined to be on top of said world is evil. He could've acted to stop Mohg's cult and the damage it causes. He could've aided his brother whose entire race has been oppressed by their family due to no fault of their own. Instead he uses them like he does everyone else. The Lord of Blood's Exaltation even says: "Render up you offerings of blood to your Lord. Drench my consort's chamber. Slake his cocoon's thirst." which suggests that Miquella made use of the dynasty's rituals. Empyreans are godly candidates, they are not destined to become gods. Despite that, Miquella says he WILL become a god. That is not the result of a curse, destiny or prophecy but determination. Marika stepped over the corpses of her tormentors to ascend and create her order, Miquella continuously uses and abandons those whose affections he has compelled, and steps over the corpses of those that he can't compel for his ascension and order. There are no albinaurics, those who live in death, omen, demihumans or anybody else the golden order oppresses to be found in the Haligtree, and the route is closed for the albinaurics who reach the consecrated snowfield. He even refuses Castle Sol's denizens entry to the Haligtree after they fail to perform the impossible task he put them up to. In the Haligtree there are in reality only Misbegotten (warriors) and common soldiers who are so suspiciously loyal that they will blow themselves up to cast a light he might see in the vain hope that he will return, except he left those behind as well and we hear no intent from his side to return. How does that signify compassion? Radahn and even Messmer have shown more kindness to the albinaurics than Miquella by being friends with Gaius. He doesn't care for the Haligtree soldiers (including his twin) or the Redmanes caught in the crossfire of his ambitions. And he doesn't even care for those he's seen as a protector of such as the albinaurics (see those in Mohgwyn dynasty). Miquella left the Haligtree, its soldiers and his twin to rot while he furthered his own goals, even though the rot is caused by his desires to ascend to godhood with Radahn as his lord. I don't see how his famed "acts of kindness" show any actual kindness. For example, he cures Freija with a kiss, which is similar to the embrace he uses to mind control the player, then she suspiciously becomes loyal to him even though it was his determination that caused the rot outbreak that afflicted her and her fellow Redmanes. He unleashes a nuke upon them, cures one person and the takeaway is somehow that he is good and kind? It's open to interpretation whether Miquella was good but misguided or evil and manipulative, but I firmly believe it's the latter. But his actions could be seen as necessary to achieve a greater good. Perhaps he genuinely believes he will benefit the world, I just don't see how he's any different from his mother and see no reason to trust him or give him the benefit of the doubt.
There is no naivety to miquella's character. He is tied to the nascent butterfly. This is the first and only lasting impression of miquella before shadow of the erd tree. His haligtree never grew, he never cured his sister, he never grew older, he is nascent in all things except his mind, which is why it is revealed he abandons all things. In all ways, it is pointed out that the one who is most hyper aware of his own failings is miquella himself, since it is always stated others seem to like him, through bewitching or genuine attachment. Malenia believes in him from the very beginning to her very end. All alone still waiting for her brother to save her from the rot. Miquella's journey of destroying his inner child, his inner worlds, and his outer self does not suggest naivety, but a tiredness that does not exist within natural children. Miquella's childlike nature betrays the decrepit nature of his mind. Adding naivety to his character absolves him of his actions. which would be counterproductive to miquella's story from a story writing perspective, since his character arc is: because miquella does not forgive himself for failing to self actualize his dreams(trina) to reality, he turns to self destruction. Abandoning all parts of himself in hopes of transcending his cursed aspects- which ultimately lead to his corruption and descent into madness.
What’s really funny about the manipulation point is the same exact people probably worship big American business lords, as if advertising as a whole isn’t a manipulation tactic to a much more sinister end.
I think this is a great analysis! One slightly different interpretation that I think still keeps everything lore-wise together is this: What if Radahn said yes initially, but changed his mind after seeing Miquella's true nature. I think it fills in the bit about the promise, that he originally vowed to be with Miquella, but once he saw what he was really like, he did everything possible to resist. It would also mirror your own journey about Miquella, thinking that he is kind, but over time you come to learn that he is a monster, even if a "compassionate" one. And I think it makes for an interesting read on Miquella. He might not even mean to manipulate Radahn, but that is just what he does, whether he is consciously or unconsciously using his power. He does so much get Radahn to be his consort and when he finally has him, he ends up with a husk. Even if he does genuinely mean to love Radahn, his sister and others, his love hollows out everyone until they are nothing but servants of his will. And that's what his age of compassion will be, even in the most generous interpretation of Miquella the kind.
In my personal headcanon, my Tarnished uses the Mending Rune of Perfect Order augmented with shards of Miquella's discarded Greatrune. Shut out the meddling of outer gods, and create an inclusive world where everyone's just a little kinder, just a little gentler to everyone else, and help avoid the sort of suffering and bloodshed that has plagued these lands from cropping up again.
Hewg was charged by Marika with forging a weapon capable of killing a god. It always made sense to me it was to be used on her, to free her from her imprisonment, but what if instead/also she saw what was coming with Miquella?
Miquella isn't just young in body but is also clearly young in mind as well. Many of his thoughts and actions are at the level of an adolescent or more likely prepubescent child. Despite all the worldly experience hundreds of years of life give him, he still views things from the framing of a child and his reasoning/actions reflect that.
I’m just shocked that they made Radahn cooler. They took “Mr. Matched melania’s strength, held back the stars, skateboarded on his horse with gravity magic, commands the consensual, complete loyalty of his men even” all on top of doing this after he lost his mind after a scarlet nuke was dropped on his land. They took all of that, and added “can’t be charmed” and “needed to be killed and have his soul out in another man’s body before he could be forced to submit”. I know this has been said before, but good lord, he’s the main character of his own story.
I like the theory that someone else commented. Someone said that the reason as to why Radahn’s soul was put inside Mohg was because Mohg was already “broken in” my Miqella’s mind control. Also makes everything Miqella did even more messed up
@@AB-fl5xu Umm, yes! We know that Radahn rejected the role as Miquella's 'Promised Consort' We also know that Miquella did great works on Mohgs flesh to craft it into Radahn's new vessel, and coaxed/forced his soul into it. We Also Also know that Miquella wraps him in the Empyrean's embrace. (Which is *how* Miquella charms you)
@@AlyssMa7rin we have no proof at all in the game as to whether Radahn refused or accepted the vow I’m afraid. Not through any character or in any item description.
Great video! An interesting aspect to consider -- this is a feudal system, which is innately hierarchical and coerces loyalty from birth. The best modern analogy for it modern people know is a mafia -- the don and his 'family', in the form of his captains, their lieutenants, and the don's various unsavoury types that do the specialized work, and all their various dependents. Your loyalty was *owed* to various people -- your parents, your clan chief, your landowner, the head of your guild. Most feudal systems only had an out by joining a religious order, which was simply a different liege. It was a web of dependence and demand, liberty and free thought wasn't really a thing, you didn't withhold your loyalties because that harmed your standing in the hierarchy, and hierarchy determined what you were owed by others and dispensed by your liege. Also, because feudal systems rely on militaristic family structures, loyalty only really existed to one's own gang, the notion of the state as a more neutral body doesn't exist here. Your third option was to opt out and live in the wilderness, without friends, vulnerable to whomever might want to hurt you or whatever misfortune might befall you. So those who cared for you were also the coercive powers in your life. At most you have the freedom of your own secret thoughts, but since you're raised from birth to exist within this system and think according to its rules, even that is suspect. So for a lot of the vassals and the serfs in the Lands between, they're trading a liege who demands compliance *and* doesn't care or who actively mistreats them in the Golden Order, for someone who still demands compliance but actually cares for them and can guarantee their safety by defanging their threats in Miquella. That's an unequivocal step up. I think it underlines the theme of 'the sins of the past'. Marika was born into a system that operated on violence and persecution and which created hatreds as a result, and her system shared those rules but applied them to different groups. This is often what happens, there is a revelation and a madness to questioning fundamental rules of how your society works. Miquella challenges the ideas about what defines one's lot in life, but he's inheriting a society rife with hatreds and pre-existing ideas -- as a liege, responsible for order and rule of law, can he protect the omens from all the omenkillers? With his charm, he absolutely can. Coercion in a system that presumes coercion is continuity. Continuity is also part of Miquella's theme, trying to refine what his mother did, a path he understands from his study but is trying to reshape and, most importantly, replace. But there's also an interesting facet of Miquella's lore concerning death that is also worth considering. We know that he prayed for Godwyn to die a 'true death', but no one dies in the Lands Between permanently, they are reborn through the Erdtree. Also, in the Golden Order, that's a level of heretical thought I'd call 'super duper double juiced-in heresy,' since his mother specifically made deathlessness a feature of the Golden Order. There's also the needle-nail symbolism of Miquella's worshippers, suggesting there was a plot to kill the Erdtree in order to supplant it, as one kills trees by driving copper nails into them. Since people seem to be born through the Erdtree itself, killing the Erdtree would change the lifecycle. Tarnished Archaeologist has a video you may find interesting, The Plot to Kill the Erdtree. So I wonder if he planned to bring death back to the Lands Between in some fashion, to end Erdtree births. In which case, his charm coercion and how much he leans into it makes a lot more sense -- it spares the need to kill, which would mean something in a system where true death was once again a meaningful possibility. It would also follow up the them of supplanting the previous generation, in this case by granting them death and freeing the newer generations from their hatreds and unhelpful customs. Interesting thought if true.
While the notion of abandoning his love might be the one grave thing others theorize that Miquella did wrong and it couldn't bring his age of compassion, I could view it in another way, someone so single handedly invested in his quest to become a god in order to right the wrongs of an already broken world is 'kind of' an act or form of love (albeit a more twisted and sad) because it wasn't only his love that is what he abandoned, his eye, his flesh, everything that is a part of his golden lineage. I think it is also because love is what drove Marika, his mother to pain and madness (the whole reason for everything that happened in game) so Miquella wanted no ties to an emotion so powerful it drives one to do unimaginable things (but at the same time he mirrors her actions to see what she did wrong that he could do right) He didn't abandon love nor St. Trina out of selfish ambition, it was to be free of his fate. And because of St. Trina herself, the very embodiment of his love asking us to free him, she didn't seem to hold any form of hatred against his decisions but rather as an act of mercy asks the Tarnished to put an end to him and forgive him. His alter ego but is still him despite being separated from him. I don't condone the wrongs he did but seeing him only as an evil villain doing things out of evil is a disservice to his story or what the game is trying to tell us about him.
I had another though. We have twins, Miquella and Malenia, that are cursed. We know Malinia cursed with rot, and Miquella is cursed by some form of twisted immortality. But what if they are both cursed with decay? Malenia's curse poisons and decays flesh, while Miquella's curse poisons and decays mind. Which kind of checks out, since some of his followers started to question him once his great rune was broken. Ansbach's words about his heart being artfully stolen against his presume Miquella's love was rather twisted. On the other hand he still has ability to steal heart in his boss fight, and this alone refutes the entire theory.
While Messmer reminds me of Ragnarok Thor, Miquella reminds me of Ragnarok Odin, well, both him and his mother Marika honesty. And that Leyndell OST in the background goes so hard.
Fun fact I just learned: If you head towards St. Trina before Miquella shatters his rune, the path is blocked by one of his incantations. He didn't want anyone to know the Age of Compassion was built on murder like the Golden Order.
Mogh actually shown that he wanted to build dynasty that he actually wanted to go against the golden order as opposed of Margitt. Miquella just used his desire and crank it to 11 sacrificing him instead.
I feel like Miquella is kind of similar to Odin but from a different angle. He also seeks control trough godhood, with compassion. Compassion without love or war, a world where noting changes is just a form of control. I feel after the death of his brother and all the shit that happened with his family, he became somewhat obsessed with this idea of a new compassionate but stagnated world
this is all nice and dandy debate. but would those who actually suffer due to these things give a damn to freedome? i said freedome leads to death, rape, etc.
I think what disturbs me the most is the terrifying moral force behind his argument, from a purely philosophical and ethical perspective. Putting aside contested metaphysical questions such as "do we even actually have free will in the first place?", I can't help but find myself transfixed by the unsettling point: Regardless of whatever potential happiness I may or may not find in such a world as Miquella wishes to create, can I morally or ethically justify the position that I should purchase my ability to choose - my capacity to feel authentic to myself and my choices whether good or ill at the price of everyone else's opportunity to live and find happiness in a better, kinder world? In short: how could I possibly justify choosing that others be denied paradise merely so that I can feel assured that my choices are my own? I cannot help but look at it and see that to make such a choice is nothing short of abhorrently selfish. Keep in mind that when we first encounter Miquella's merry band that, while yes they are magically compelled, only Ansbach (upon whom Miquella's charm is the most severe, as his commitments and intentions immediately prior to his charming placed him directly and irreconcilably in violent opposition to Miquella, for reasons that even his attire's description acknowledges are ultimately illogical and which are built upon stubborn adherence to shallow principles like preserving the dignity of and upholding his misguided loyalty to a self-absorbed would-be despot) appears to be anything less than perfectly reasonable and content with their service to Miquella. They are not being mind-controlled like zombies, and do not appear to be forced by the charm to make irrational decisions or act in a way that is fundamentally contrary to their principles or self-interest (even Ansbach, despite the charm's influence, doesn't really act against his own beliefs. In fact, he still has the agency to choose to more or less forgo necessarily assisting Wise Miquella's aims and instead focuses his energies on investigating so that he can come to his own conclusions about Miquella the Kind and his intentions, implying that in spite of the gaps the charm has made in his memory that he still retains a degree of moral agency). Meanwhile, others manipulated by Kindly Miquella's charm instead have aspects of their personality altered in such a way so as to change them from deeply flawed and self-destructive and into happier and well-adjusted (relatively speaking). Thiolliere, without the charm, transforms from a friendly, modest, and helpful companion into his true and authentic self: a drug addict fiending for his next fix of St. Trina's Velvet Nectar. Something which he petulantly demands ought to be kept all to himself. When challenged he essentially goes into an incoherent drug-addled rage due to his insecurities and sense of inferiority and outright invades you so that his beloved drug, I mean saint, will smile upon him and only him. Needle Knight Leda, meanwhile, somehow seems to be even more extreme. She goes from being the eager and thoughtful leader of the company into her authentic self: A paranoid sociopath hell-bent on murdering anyone that could potentially be a threat to her or her objectives. Before the charm breaks she even expresses compassion, sympathy, and understanding towards the plight and boiling hatred nurtured by the Hornsent towards herself and all of the Erdtree's ilk due to the trauma and cycles of violence scarring his past. Which of course immediately turns into the calculated and violent decision to remove him as a potential threat the moment the charm breaks. The saddest part? By the end of her questline, before going to Enir Ilem, Leda appears to be slowly awakening to the morbid reality of how awful she is without the charm reigning in her psychopathy and paranoia. I don't think there really is any question at all: if given the choice, she would absolutely choose to be charmed by Sweet Miquella again, giving up her so-called "true self". So that she was no longer forced to live life as the miserable murderous monster that she truly is. So, I suppose I am forced to meditate on this: Is being my "true" self really worth it, if I could be, without resorting to something like the utter debasement and destruction of my capacity for reason (as certain belief systems and ideologies in our own world, which shall politely go unnamed, are so eagerly inclined to encourage) changed into a happier and better adjusted version of myself? Moreover, is it right for me to be the holdout for the sake of such a true self and my own ambition and self-actualization if in doing so, I deny that possibility to others who might rejoice and live far happier lives in an age of compassion? I can't help but come to the conclusion that, even without his divine influence coercing my thoughts, I would stand alongside Miquella the Kind, and that I would find myself morally obligated to assist him in ushering in his new and loving age. Alas the irony, if only the game's mechanics could facilitate me in expressing my choice through an alternate ending instead of being forced to choose what it has determined for me is the correct choice and motivation for my character without explanation. Perhaps the game should be called Kindly Elden Ring...
I don't feel like I can agree with that being called paradise. Even with the Charm active, Miquella's group doesn't like each other. Leda isn't aggressive only because she trusts the charm to keep everyone in check. Hornsent specifically states that his hate for everyone connected to the erdtree remains intact. Ansbach, while he might be aiding Miquella, doesn't really seem to trust or like him. To say nothing of whether Miquella can actually improve the world or whether he'll just continue retracing Marika's footsteps, what gives him the right to decide if it's worth sacrificing everyone's freedom of choice for superficial happiness? An even bigger issue than that, though, is that even in the best case scenario, a world that perpetually lives under Miquella's charm is one that inevitably cannot resist falling into stagnation. It's a world and a people that cannot be challenged, cannot grow, cannot overcome. It's exactly what caused the collapse of the Golden Order in the first place.
Isn't the whole reason the bloody fingers are killing tarnished to feed Miquellas cocoon blood? Is there evidence that there even were bloody fingers before Mohg "kidnapped" Miquella?
The Lord of Blood's Exultation states they're drenching the cocoon in blood. And Mohg's remembrance states Miquella never responded to Mohg no matter how much he tried. The DLC is trying very hard to make Miquella a villain, but it only works if you pretend the base game doesn't exist.
@@CreativeUsernameEh Nah it still works, especially since the base game dropped a big hint about Miquella charming people in the bewitching branch item description.
I feel one thing so many people are missing is...how did Miquella and Mohg first meet? Miquella's power requires a face-to-face meeting to work and there's nothing that suggests that Miquella knew of Mohg's hideout or even that he was out of the sewers at all (the Mohg illusion exists to fool people into believing he's still down there), so how did they come together? My theory is that Mogh used Malenia's absence from the Haligtree to attack it with his forces. It's the closest demigod dwelling to his own and Malenia taking her entire army away must have looked like a stroke of good luck. My theory is that Mohg originally merely intended to kill Miquella and claim his Great Rune, but that he was mind-whammied and convinced by Miquella to go for the whole "make me your consort" thing. This obsession also prevented Mohg from accomplishing any more conquests and pinned him down in his own citadel so Miquella would have one less rival to defeat once his own plan got off the ground. I also think it was his plan for Leda and her group to slay Mohg so he can use his body, hence why she shows up there. As for who Miquella originally intended to house Radahn's soul, well, why do you think he was so obsessed with Godwyn and his corpse? I think that's what he intended originally to become the receptable but he proved unable to purify the corpse from the deathblight and so Mohg's invasion luckily provided him with a usable alternative.
According to Freyja Miquella was actually present at the battle of aeonia, presumably there with malenia as he tended to Freyja's scarlet rot infection as he charmed her -- meaning that he couldnt have actually been at the haligtree
@@Revision-Harrowed Doesn't change much. Then Mohg accosted Miquella during the retreat from Caelid which was apparently disorderly enough that Finlay had to carry Malenia back all by her lomesome. Perfect conditions for an ambush.
They should have made Miquella's broken great rune into something like that after defeating him honestly. That shit is so useless outside of "oh cool lore drop". "Negate effect of getting hit by boss's easiest attack twice (which also prevents you from seeing cool interaction)" lmfao.
I can understand some of that, I feel that the whole point of not getting a mending rune is that Miquella broke his rune into almost nothing prior to the final battle. Maybe the rune lost too much of its power to be salvaged? I also get the sense that Miquella wasn’t interested in changing the Elden Ring as is but thought the whole system was so fundamentally flawed that he wanted to create a new system of reality with him at the center of order. That said, Elden Ring does give us the chance to see a frenzy flame ending 😂 which is a pretty awful fate for the world! It would have been neat to get a glimpse of just how strange the age of compassion would be.
My first thought on finishing the DLC shortly after release: “WTF just happened?” Having fully missed the St Trina and Ansbach quests on my first play though, I just wanted to hear more about FromSoftware’s excellently crafted story from…well, FromSoftware. Really appreciate videos like yours that make the content more understandable and coherent!
I think you misread what was going on between Miquella and St. Trina. She was the aspect of him that could love, that could temper his compassion with mercy. When he gave that love up, he gave her up. She wants us to give him forgiveness and death because they are *one and the same*. He's too far gone for anything else, he can no longer take back up what he's thrown away in the pursuit of godhood. To expand slightly on the "compassion without mercy": There's a quote from Neil Gaiman's Sandman, after the angels take over running Hell. A demon is tormenting a damned soul, gloating at his pain, when one of the angels stops the demon and talks about how "that was the old Hell, that was a place of mindless torture and endless pain," and goes on to talk about how now the torture will be done to make the damned better people, ending with "One day you'll thank us for it." And the damned soul says, as the Angel flies off, "But you don't understand. That makes it worse. That makes it so much worse. . . " And that's what Miquella does when he brainwashes people 'for their own good'.
I love how diametrically opposed Miquella's goals and Ranni's ending are. A world free of the meddling of Gods vs a world completely overruled at every single aspect by the meddling of a God. The uncertainty of absolute freedom vs the certainty of absolute subjugation.
