Do books on modern paganism have a translation problem when it comes to Celtic sources? A discussion with Kris Hughes on an important subject. Courses on Celtic myth and folklore: celticsource.o...
Thank you for this. Discussions like this give me a greater appreciation for the issues scholars grapple with, not only in Celtic myth but in the literature traditions of other religions too. What a treat to see these two together in the same video. How can a regular person like me advocate for the support of University humanities programs? [5:00] "...adapted the poem to fit their own ideas about the subject" & "Why can't other modern pagan authors be as careful...?" One answer is because there are modern authors who have put a lot of effort into "finding" in ancient druidry beliefs that are parallel with or the same as in eastern religions (chi, chakras, shamanistic elements, etc but just with Irish/ Welsh vocabulary). So updating translations might actually be harmful [11:18] to some ideas in druidry books since these supposed parallels have been written about for so many years now, many people take them for granted. [12:15] "... what would be the appropriate response to authors who you feel are sort of not doing right by their readers, I mean do you think we should be calling them out on social media..." Maybe it would be fair to levy on them the same criticisms they made of medieval Christian scribes.
For me when I'm using celtic/welsh translations I want something authentic and something that is very true to the original especially when I am using the content to learn from and inform my journey in an educational way first and foremost and spiritually second of all. I personally think that if the author is clear in the fact that they have taken the translation in their own way a little bit then at least those using the books can make an informed choice as to whether or not that translation is right for them or not. It is respectful to honour the origins of the myths/texts and stay close to the original translations unless after research by the author they have uncovered new, better up to date translations for the text.
Great discussion. The problem with any translation is that it is a translation from the original. Unfortunately if a translation is inaccurate most readers have no idea that this is so. It comes as a great shock when everyone familiar with the King James Bible discovers that this is one of many translations that have been made over the years.
Thank you for making your research so accessible. I found the comments on accuracy interesting. However It took me a while and loads of false leads to find sources which are reliable, yours being one. Also, having lived in three countries, I found the best way to experience a culture was to immerse myself in it. I'm fortunate, to have always felt accepted and included without any accusations of approapiation, although I consider Britain my home. 35:08
Celtic studies needs an equivalent of the Loeb Classical Library. Watching this video, I could imagine two scholars complaining about defective editions and translations of Greek and Latin texts, two centuries ago.
Hi Gwylim you mention The Book of Taleisin by Marged Haycock. Is this book widely available I've been doing web searches and can't seem to locate it. This is a very interesting video by two experts of Celtic myth and legends.
Garry - I had a look online for one the other day, and found precisely one copy and they wanted silly money for it. There needs to be a reprint, and as this is probably used as a textbook on some Uni courses, I don't know why it hasn't been. Maybe because it's so big?
It is out of print, at least in the United States. And if you CAN find it, it’s extremely expensive :( That said, you can purchase the prophecies of taliesin by marged haycock from the library of wales and have it shipped to the US for relatively inexpensive.
Thank you for having this conversation! Particularity i've been having difficulty accessing the Bretha Nemed Toisiach, and Didenach...any help you could give would be deeply appreciated
They probably don't know who are reliable references unfortunately. It would be great to have a list of these reliable translations. Perhaps you should have a book line of such things Gwyl, asking these scholarly people to provide these translations within your affordable book line. Calling it an accurate translation series. Call them out and then they will be reluctant to produce any such inaccurate translations. I am like you Gwyl. I am a gatekeeper so I get it not wanting to be one but some people were born to be as such. I think it is your place Gwyl as it is my place to do what I do. I would put out a series of reliable translations or a document on the reliable translations and review books too on that. People will do anything they can sell or get aways with. Look at the fact that people are starting to write with AI, too lazy to write a real book. Love this discussion because sometimes we get it wrong. We are all here to help each other, whether it is correcting someone or support someone. It's all done in Love. The comment about not qualified to judge which judging should be made by real Irish speakers rather than reclaimed Irish is an interesting comment as I would understand that.
A lot of the best books relating to Hengerdd are out of print and very expensive. I'm lucky to live in Wales and have access to good libraries. You are right in saying that those publishing material referencing Hengerdd should be diligent when seeking translations, but do publishers such as UWP also have a duty to keep important editions of Hengerdd and associated works in print and affordable?
Also all the paganism in my family was about avoiding malicious or indifferent side to us humans, and placating them. Little prayers. I heard no grand deities except Ossian was humanized. The latter part of the large music dance and poetry tradition in Nov Scotia. No ritual magic either. Those two are what modern pagans look for.. nova Scotia preserved ancient Gaelic fiddling and dancing lost in Scotland. It is what held the culture together through generations of poverty
As a modern Pagan "genuine" isn't always what I'm shooting for. Older isn't always better. And I'm not about to build a wicker man so that I can tout how "genuine" I am. lol But the best example I can give is that I decided to stop using the tradition "Aradia: Gospel of the Witches" by Charels Leland that witches have used since Gardner's time...and I wanted to replace that with authentic prayers to Diana from ancient Rome. And I did find some!!! Well to make a long story short these Roman prayers just didn't have the meaning to me that the often scoffed at Aradia material did, and I had to dump the "genuine" for what actually had more meaning for me and my other coven members who pretty much felt the same way. I think the important thing is to explain this to new coven initiates so that they understand what we did and why we did it....and that we just found the Roman prayers to Diana bland. lol
This is very interesting. Translating is not easy. To put it into perspective, millions of people use the King James version of the Bible and believe it is literally true. However, it comes from a long line of translations of translations and copies. It has been shown to have at least 30,000 errors when compared with the earliest copies available.
While I appreciate the courtesy to invite Chris on the show to discuss the issue of translation, the issue is quite plainly, an issue of cultural appropriation. Taking words from a culture and altering them to suit commercial demand is not acceptable. Ever. There was no blanket statement as it was clearly mentioned that roughly 2/3 of pagan books are using poor translations. It's interesting how the tolerance to cultural appropriation differs around the world. I live in Vancouver where the issue of poor translation of indigenous stories would cause absolute uproar among all indigenous and non indignous communities (and yes on social media). There is no accommodation. I can't even imagine saying to the concerned indigenous peoples, "Well, we are having a hard time getting people interested in your myths, so we are going to kinda..overlook some of these discrepencies." Mind boggling.
I respectfully disagree that the issue they're discussing is one of cultural appropriation. If it were a matter of cultural appropriation, then we could expect a person coming from a dominating and colonizing community passing off an oppressed minority's culture as their own as they sell that culture to other people outside the colonized group for profit. That's not what's going on here, though. Pagan authors don't make much money, they're not rich people making a great living off of what they're doing. And they're typically selling their works to the descendants of people whose ancestors spoke Gallic/Irish/Welsh and are longing for a connection with the culture of their grandparents/great-grandparents, etc. They don't live on the land of the people whose culture is being discussed in these books, and what's more, the people buying these books are often descending of those who lost their language and culture due to colonizing forces to begin with. I agree, therefore, with Dr. Gwilym, that this is really a matter of integrity in scholarship. You can't say you're a pagan author who has some authority in a particular subject and not know the major works in it. It's rather like someone who claims they're a Christian selling works on Christianity who hasn't read the Bible and has no clue what's happening with the latest translations of the Bible, or trends in Christian scholarship. To be charitable, it seems a problem of competence in their scholarship; if one is less charitable, it comes across as a charlatan taking advantage of the gullible by defrauding them. It's not really cultural appropriation, though, IMHO.
With regards to blood and culture, why would a mutable characteristic take precedence over a immutable characteristic? To clarify, how could something which is chosen be more integral to your identity than that which is innate?
Because the process by which identities are created doesn't care whether something is immutable or mutable. Modern American culture is proof of that, as well as the countless instances of people adopting the culture of their present community regardless of their ancestry.
The Celtic Heroic Age by John Koch, Taliesin Poems by Marged Haycock (both editions), Mabinogion by Sioned Davies, The Táin by Thomas Kinsella, AncienT irish Tales by Cross and Slover for bits and bobs.
My ghaidhlig is poor, but I have decent vocabulary and understanding of grammar, and Scottish us much closer to old Irish than modern iris(na na na na na). So I read old poetry with dictionary in hand. Modern pagans routinely alter things to match their pre existing beliefs, so much so that I pretii don't know any ghaidhlig unless I know them well, because I can stir up a lot of hostility , very quickly. Many hide behind the false belief that the Gaels didn't write things down. Ha! Irish had one of the largest literature in antiquity and middle ages. I had druids accuse me of racism for suggesting my nova Scotia Gaels were ethnically cleansed by our Anglo friends. Well we didn't arrive in triumph. We were the poorest of the poor. Few men of hardbwrkingvage alive and my family were outlaws and hid among natives and depended on their kindness to get through the decades when we became illiterate and subsistence farmers on the sparse nova Scotia soil. Yes and some were sentenced to slavery for the 45 rebellion. Acknowledging any Gaelic slavery is verboten. There weren't a lot but it happened, which is why many fled to very remote spots. It was a senior ibid who called me racist. So am I sceptical of pagan Celts. Yes sites.
There are not only lots of terrible translations, there are even more horrible interpretations of those myths. I am guessing I know which Druidic pagan authors you are speaking of. Lots of liberties are taken playing fast and loose with the retelling of the tales. And I am even more suspicious when the author doesn't even cite any scholarly translations.
