Video idea: randomly pick some on your rides [with their approval], and present rider and bike. Show bike in all it's glory, frameset, components etc. We want to see what people are riding with!
I hope this channel gets approached by modern steel frame bike manufacturers and you can give an honest review of the product. I would really love it if that's the future direction you go with this. I can find a dozen reviews on trek, Giant and specialized but I can't find a honest review on stelbel, standert triebwerk, Mason, or alchemy bikes... Make it happen!!!
There’s a definite need for an independent evaluation / information outlet for higher end modern steel frames in this important but niche sector. Can’t think of a better match Luis if thats the direction you’re minded to go, as complimentary to existing general content. 👍
Hello Luis, since two years I have stellframe cinelli (gino Liotto) which I build by myself. the frame is around 38 years old and I am very satisfied with this "oldtimer" Thanks for this video!
I love your analytics. Even though I’m relearning bike terminology (it’s been over 30 years) I understand what your saying. When you are describing top tube length, oversized bottom bracket in regards to and how the bike accelerates and turns, it’s like I’m on the bike It all makes sense. Very well communicated. You’re like a test pilot for road bikes. It feels like I’m actually riding the bike with you . Thank you.
The super trendy Canadian Cervelo started out with some very sweet semi-FOCO and full-FOCO (Super Prodigy) bikes. Team CSC Tyler Hamilton era. I guess there was some tubing supply issue and some of the regular off the rack Prodigy models got the full-FOCO tubes of the pro level Super Prodigy!
I'm very impressed with that frame! You are seriously covering all the details that are important to us folks who really know what to look for in a steel frame (and your comment about feeling even a centimeter difference is 100% true, I know from experience). Hope to see it in person in the future on one of those rides!
Awesome. Great report. My friends on our monthly steelie ride will be happy to see this video, especially our newcomers who are considering getting their first steelie. Thank you Luis for showing.
Luis, the way you aren’t giving up on steel is just great. 😀 I ride Ti, a Vamoots; the ride feel is straight and smooth. The chain stays are nice fat tubes, contributing to lateral stiffness and acceleration. I’d put it up against a carbon bike any day. Keep the rubber side down!
Great analysis! I believe the shock transmission may be due to the material choice. Columbus Spirit is stiffer, but a bit more brittle than more ductile SL or SLX, the crystal structure of the metals are different. As you say the 73 degree steerer angle is the goldilocks angle, interested in what fork rake it runs, as I think 48mm is the established sweet spot? Finally, the tapered steering tube would be laterally stiffer than a straight one, giving more direct steering. Will be interested in your thoughts, and seeing your results once the bike setup is nailed…
Thank you for your insights Patrick. I plan to change items one at a time. Starting with larger front tire, then I will try a different wheelset. Should provide some interesting feedback👍🏾
bretheren, if you're planning visiting central florida, with side intent of climbing.. ask the locals about "sugar loaf mountain", and report back lol..
I'm glad you're liking your new bike! Great video. I'm an old guy and I love steel framed bicycles. The kids can play around with whatever they want but give me a steel frame any day. My go to road bike right now is a '09 Surly Pacer. It does everything I want it to do and I love it! I'm also perfectly fine with down tube shifters, rim brakes and tubes in my tires. Just ride.
I'd love to be fit and strong enough to feel a significant acceleration difference among my various "regularly ridden" road bikes (by year of manufacture): 2019 steel with 11-sp Campy, 2008 carbon with 10-sp Ultegra/DA, and 2000 M4 aluminum with 9-sp Ultegra. All are fully mechanical with rim brakes, all are on alloy wheels with 23 or 25mm tires, and all are easily quicker than I can leverage. I typically ride solo at 16-22mph, sometimes reaching 30mph, on flat to mildly rolling terrain with fair to excellent asphalt. All three have more traditional "tallish" gearing than most people ride today. Each one has a very different feel from the others, but all three are very satisfying to ride. If I wanted to go faster, I'd feel good about getting there on any of the three.
What you are showing Luis and proving many of us have thought for some time now top notch steel frames can be equal to really good carbon and your evaluations are proving this thank you for these videos your time all with out the hype ,yes be Blessed.
Luis, I ride a Litespeed Vortex Ti 10 speed. 23mm on the back and 25mm on the front. Took away the twitchiness and gave a more smooth ride all together. I go between this bike and my S-Works Venge on my group rides here in Central FL . Enjoy your channel 🚴♀💨
Great update Luis 😀. Looks promising ………especially in terms of handling and see as suggested no worries on fit or effective compromise holding your usual position. I truly appreciate your sustained effort over several years and different bikes on this mission. For significant numbers of us what’s wanted / needed is already under our noses definitely a case of ‘back to the future’ for the majority. Emphasis on ease of ownership, practicality and real world value for money. Pro / semi-pro and aspiring hopefuls have different choices for the extra fractions of a percentage point in speed performance. Empirical testing (near as possible ) through experience, knowledge equals choices…………keep spreading the word brother 👏👏👏
Enjoying this video series. At the moment do you think your Colnago has better rough road comfort ? Also, I’d be quite surprised if a 25 mm tire didn’t improve the feel. I went from 23 to 25 and now ride measured 27.5 on my Moots ti , all Campy 12spd mech. , rim brake. This is the max size for this frame and the comfort improved a lot with each increase . It doesn’t seem to have slowed it/me down at all.
I recently purchased a set of the Head Belgium rims and threw 25c tires on them. They measured out to 27.5c which my frame just accepts without rubbing in turns. The tires are basically a seamless transition from rim to tire. Running tubeless and the comfort level when compared to my Mavic ksyrium sl's is night and day. They feel much faster as well.
Just like cars, tires are the simplest way to make a huge difference in feel. Get wide, hookless and aero wheels. Run 29 to 32 mm widths at (lower) psi rated for hookless tires. You will love life. Make frame vintage and material a moot point. Unless bike is complete boat anchor. 😊
Nice video, been looking forward to it. My frame size is 55 with a 100mm stem so we have a similar set up. As for my personal experience with modern steel you already saw my video. 😁 But yes my Cinelli Nemo Tig definitely beats me up on the longer rides. I don’t like to do more than 60-70km on it. But it handles beautifully. Catch 22. 🤷🏻♂️ In 2023 id still recommend metal bikes.
@@thegoodwheel yes, I have used both carbon and aluminium rims on the Nemo, with butyl, latex and TPU tubes. (Now exclusively TPU.) 23, 25 and 28mm tyres.
I can agree with your critique of the comparison of the steel and the Colnago because I had a Colnago M10 which is damn near the same bike as the V3R and I now have a custom Ti bike made to be a Crit racing bike. I liked the Colnago handling so much that I had the builder match the frame geometries. There is still some ride feel differences but I like my Ti bike even more. My Colnago frame started coming apart at the chainstay when the glue joint failed and the aluminum cable inserts bonded into the frame started crumbling, both non repairable parts of the bike frame. That frame was only about 9 years old. Yeah carbon, never again. Like I said I like my Ti bike so much I won't be buying any more bikes.
Steel means lifetime bike! Still riding 47 year old steel frame, rides as good as new, classic French geometry, 72 degree head and seat tube angles. This makes it for well balanced ride, the frame is really a spring absorbing the bumps. The tight fork trail makes for nimble even slightly twitchy handling.
You are a thinking cyclist, subscribed. There are bikes that accelerate well that have neither tapered steerer or press fit BB, and, bikes that don't with both.
I have a modern steel frame and a vintage 80s one and they both feel the same in ride quality. The modern one handles and accelerates better due to its design and weight but they both feel grounded in the road, which is probably that "heavy" weight you feel in the turns. That makes it feel a bit sluggish in comparison to a carbon frame which I feel like it's more on top of the road. I think the chatter you felt on the bad parts can be attributed to the 23s and high pressure. I had 23s on my vintage bike but that bike rode buttery smooth. I only pump them to about 80-90 psi.
Are those 23s tubulars? Tubulars are said to be equal in comfort to at least one size bigger clincher, because of different profile/form. There might be something to it - I remember Grandpa's Supercorsa legerissimo as ultrasmooth (running 23mm tubulars) compared to my Sancineto (25mm clinchers)... But that could also be the tubing (SLX vs Gara).
@@turboseize No, they were clinchers and even pretty cheap tires but I think the frame in that instance made the ride. It was a 1982 Olmo Competition. Had I put better tires on it I'm sure it would've felt even better.
Very pleased to hear. The spirit tubes are very much on par with carbon. Even with older series of columbus high end steel tubes such as Genius, Foco, Overmax, Nemo and Ultrafoco, they gave carbon a serious run for its money. More on a personal sidenote and based on my experience, I wouldn't cut the steering tube this much because lying down too much on the bike has a negative impact on the lumbar vertebrae. The same goes for a stem that's too short. Besides that I used to ride on 700* 20c before they weren't made anymore now use 700*23c. My steel road bike projects are advancing slowly but surely will probably by two sets of zip wheels. Glad you love your bike.
If your fitness is sub par with 70 miles a week, my fitness is non existent! Lol Your videos and style are great, I appreciate your hard work and keep it going
Love the way you properly accent/pronounce non-English words lol. Got a feeling you may speak more than one language. Carbon or steel fork? Went to carbon frame/fork bikes thirty years ago and never had a desire to ride anything else. I've had steel, aluminum and carbon with aluminum lugs etc. but love the ride of full carbon. All three bike manufactured in the early 90's. Currently have two Treks and a Keslrel. All three bikes manufactured in the early 90's. I'm a big boy and they have withstood the torture. I built each one from the frame up. At 70, I appreciate a compliant ride. Many years ago, we thought 19 mm tires with 120 psi were a must lol. Been riding with 25 mm's at 100 psi for a few years now and it was like adding suspension. Keep up the good work on your channel.
@@tommyfreckmann6857 I have no idea of the miles. No doubt thousands on each since 1991 when I began riding and racing. Lucky to do two or three short rides a week now days and worry about crashes more than I used to lol. You don't bounce back up at 70. EMS gets called.
@@tommyfreckmann6857 Classics that were at the leading edge of technology in their day lol. A Trek 5200 OCLV, Trek 5500 OCLV and the Kestrel is a 200sc. Also have a Cannondale aluminum mountain bike. Three other frames collecting dust.
Thanks for the update. I currently ride an old steel Schwinn Chicago, and that's my only road bike, so I have nothing to compare it to. I am doing my first cycling event this Saturday, so it would be interesting to see how I stack up against the modern bikes. Should be a fun experience.
As long as the roads are flat you’ll be ok. I ride a couple old steel bike on regular basis. A 91 Giant Allegra and a 92 Tommasini. Love riding these steel bikes. Now if on a bike vacation to Colorado or places with serious altitude then it’s my 16 pounder that comes in to play. 😊
I just got a Fairlight Strael 3.0 and absolutely love it! But, I've never had a carbon road bike so I can't compare it to that. For that reason, I hope to see you get to ride one and review it someday.
Luis, you know what chaps me the most about carbon! The prices are so overboard for a good carbon bike. I bought a Cervelo Solist with less than 500 miles on it for $500! Some people have too much money. I love my steel Mondonico, it is way more forgiving on rough roads. Carbon, always worried about it getting banged up or laying it down, that's not good!
Excellent video, I don’t have a steel frame but I do have a Lynsky Ti and nothing else I have carbon or Alu compares to the feel and I’ve even broken some PRs on it that I set with my carbon bike.
I rebuilt my old high school Cr-Mo 10-speed (yes, 2x5 speed) and have been using it for casual riding and touring for the last 8 years. It's heavy and draggy compared to modern bikes and I can't pace with them for extended periods, but the bike definitely handles better and destroys modern bikes in descents. I think that if you want the ultimate steel frame version of your new frame that you should try a metallic fork that has the classic tapered bend to it. Probably doesn't matter so much on the flat rides you'll be doing in Florida, but generally speaking I think the biggest advantage a steel frame has over either a composite, or aluminum frame... Is the shock absorbing capacity of the classic curved and tapered steel fork. Based on noticing how some people leave the drops in a twisting descent that I feel totally comfortable in, I would say that I'm often more comfortable in turns at speed and definitely more comfortable in descents than riders with similar skills. There is also less aero drag with the smaller frame tubes. I have never rode in a group that had a few guys on carbon that I couldn't coast with, (or past) on a 10% downgrade even though the riders that I am with are pace pedaling (I mean a casual headwind pace where everyone is talking, not like a 3/4 pace). Sometimes to the point where they will allow me to run out ahead because they know that they can easily catch me on the following climb. Sometimes the group will allow me to glide away because I am gliding and not breaking away, and I will pull ahead fifty to a hundred yards. Every once in a blue moon I will get over the subsequent hill before the group overtakes me. And if there's a continuous downgrade on the other side, I can then match their cadence/pace and over multiple hills they can lose site and I can then drop the group. Of course, you need a tour that ascends to the halfway point and then returns with descending blind hills to pull that off, but some routes are like that, and you can actually do it because the bike has a better weight to drag ratio. I doubt that would work in an actual paced ride like the type you do though. It would be near impossible to drop a group of fit riders pacing in the mid-twenties on modern bikes in their drops. At the same time, with the bike being 10 pounds heavier, with less gears, and less overall gear range, and enough drag in the drivetrain that I can't maintain the pace of fit riders pacing on either aluminum or carbon frames on level or rising terrain. On the flats, in a mild headwind, I hit max sustainable effort and pacing riders can effortlessly pull away at 2mph... In climbs, all I can be hope for is to recover faster than them, so I can catch back up after cresting. Because of that my paces tend to be a poky 14mph for rides above 20 miles long and I top out around a sustainable 18mph with a 1% downslope, but I'm casually riding on tours, not riding head down in aero. Only the racers pace like that on a tour. I imagine that if I juiced my frame with modern drivetrain components and aluminum rims, that I could pick up about 4-5mph and get it into the low twenty's. But if I were to replace it, for the leisure tour riding that I do, I'd look for a used Titanium frame as opposed to a new Aluminum or Carbon for the handling. Talk to your riding group to see if you can't borrow an old Cr-Mo, Reynolds, or Ti curved fork to try on those corners before you pass final judgement on this topic. I realize that carbon is a must for any racer, but I think for the non-pro, that a carbon fork is actually a downgrade to a metallic one. Probably in comfort, handling, confidence, and definitely not as safe. I think the handling and confidence factors are measurable to the rider. The extra weight will slow you down in acceleration, but the handling factor and added suspension comfort might be worth a try. Except for those rare moments where you get into a road surface/speed combination that matches the natural frequency of the fork, that's scary when it happens. But very hard to get into. Nice topic!
I reckon your bottom bracket stiffness,contributes more to acceleration than the fact it's oversized or pressfit. I would stay away from pressfit and cannot understand why anyone would chose that system, even in a steel frame. I also reckon your wheelset (and the weight of it) contributes much more to acceleration than anything related to the BB. And yes, your dampening has much more to do with tires and handlebar tape, than with headset standard (almost nothing) or handlebars (something but not much).
@@thegoodwheel Organize the inaugural " L'Eroica a la Florida": steel frames, 23mm tubulars, down tube shifters, knitted gloves, toe-clips, exposed cables, . . . what did I miss? Go For It
I have a Condor UK-made frame using the same steel. It soaks up the vibrations much better. For my level of riding, more Audax than speed it really fits the bill. But it still can do a turn of speed. Disk brakes etc. I use some carbon parts to lighten the load. It just has to be a steel frame thou. We have quite a few steel frame builders in the UK still. Condor makes to mesure
Higher speeds 25+ I can feel the difference from my 853 vs Trek Emonda and at 30+ the Trek feels faster plus stiffer! Good videos! I'm from southern Florida.
Really interesting feedback there, nice one! I'd say steel transmits high frequency vibration more than a 'typical' middle-of-the-road carbon frame (so tyre choice is important but most rim-brake steel bikes today will take 28mm). But steel seems to weather bigger hits better. I think steel descends better than most carbon and corners better too - the lateral flex of the frame allowing some 'suspension' when cranked over. I think carbon climbs better both seated steady and honking hard. Carbon accelerates better too, being lighter and noticeable more responsive. But a good steel frame is still very good - what do you actually need?! So in general, I'd say steel is more 'planted' than carbon. My Ritchey Logic is my choice for long solo, steady fast rides, it just feels better on rough British roads in all weather. But for pure performance or racing, it's still carbon (C64). Of course there's carbon and carbon... frames can be totally different in feel and it's hard to know what you're buying into (don't buy hype!). Custom carbon would give you what you want... at a price! But hey, all bikes are great and the most important thing is getting out there. Not sure I like the sound of 100F+ at 0700 tho..!
Having owned quality aluminium, carbon, titanium and modern steel bikes, they all had their characteristics but I can't honestly say, one better than the other.
One thing for sure your modern day steel super bike frame will out last a Carbon bike 10 fold! It can be passed down through several generations while doing so carbon will be smelling the roses.
Hi luis, watching your videos really make me want to build a steel bike. The thing that bother me the most is the average looking of your new frameset in comparison with yours other bikes ahah. Performance aside the bianci's are more iconic. Also just wondering if you will/want to make the same type of videos with a Ti frame?
You probably know this already, but for the cornering/heavy-handedness, try playing with your forward/aft adjustment on the saddle if you haven't already... in this case moving it back to lighten up the steering. Very small changes make a tremendous difference!
Enjoy the Videos. Nice to see you are talking about steel-frame bikes. It would be interesting to hear you talk about a Battaglin Portofino. I recently purchased my first custom-made lightweight steel Portofino which has oversize tubing. I found it to be a dramatic difference in the ride quality and handling over a high-end carbon frame. Do you have any thoughts?
@@thegoodwheel Thanks for replying Luis. If you do have the opportunity to ride a PortofinoI I think you will enjoy the ride and handling. Ron PS: I hope you can get more time in on the bike. "Life is good when you are on a bike".
I just came across your channel and I'm starting to shop for steel frames. It's not your fault, but stuff like this is why I can't afford other hobbies.
This darkstar build is looking great! Will you try deep section wheels on the darkstar? I’m currently shopping a steel frame that could take wider tires for adventure rides 🤙
I'll tell you how to test a carbon frame vs steel. Drive down the interstate going 70 mph and let them both fall off the rack and see which one does better. I can tell you from personal experience.
Hey Luis, I love your Channel. I am going to exchange my Carbon Gravelbike now for a Steel frame :) You should have much more subscribers. Greetings from Heidelberg.
Just 2 cents. I am familiar with skinny tubed steel bikes (can't recall how many I owned over years), currently own 4 of them. And I got accustomed to their riding characteristics, of which are: 1. VERY sluggish acceleration (bikes with oversized tubesets (Columbus MAX, for instance) accelerate slightly better, but still worse than aluminum and carbon counterparts) - this is why riders, who are familiar with composite frames, are so skeptical about steel bikes when they try them first; it is difficult to explain to them why that is a "feature" rather than a "bug" - skinny tubed steel bike will never accelerate as reactively as the CFRP one and that's what newcomers feel straight from the start and lose interest instantly; 2. informative transfer of road surface, but not overwhelmingly so - in comparison CFRP frame will give you uninformative, "isolated" feeling (some prefer it this way); 3. the best in class grip on dry and wet (due to flex in all directions) - no contest, steel wins every time; 4. fantastic comfort - only titanium can contest steel in this department; 5. springy feel - same as titanium; 6. the bike is slow to accelerate, but the sheer weight of the system gives the bike higher inertia and when it's up to speed, it is easier to keep the speed constant. This being said, all your issues with handling come from geometry department rather than from the material or oversized tubing. I had two bikes with completely identical geometry (Olmo Sanremo and Olmo Sintex) but different tubesets. While riding characteristics were different (Columbus Cromor Sanremo was super relaxing and springy and Columbus SL Sintex was slightly off-putting and less compliant). Then there is Trek Domane series which has the same Italian geometry with pedal-scrappingly low bottom bracket and long fork trail figure (same as my Olmo) which makes for stable ride and descending character like the bike is on rails. When the fit equalized between all bikes, all three bikes handle the same. This is the important part because by changing the saddle position, you are changing the weight distribution and this variable changes the handling characteristic, big time. When the fit is finalized, no adaptation time needed when switching between bikes and you can bet stiffness figures will be wildly different in the headtube, downtube, bottom bracket area and so on. Materials are different, bikes are different, geometry is the same and the handling is the same. Slight variations in reaction to steering input due to different stiffness figures are compensated by rider's body itself with the caveat: the body is very adaptable to small changes to the point of not feeling the difference in such nuances. * note that I haven't tried modern steel bike with oversized tubing and am unfamiliar with their riding characteristics. Hope some day I will have one with proper steel fork to match.
I miss the weekend group rides but the heat is insane and I worry about my lack of fitness for it haha. Hope I can get back out there (at least to the park) once I heal up from my track crash. Glad the Darkstar is a ripper.
@@thegoodwheel the guys from Road Cycling Academy stated that this oval ring benefits heel strikers, as opposed to toe strikers. He gave a logical reasoning, especially from personal experience, which was proven even better when he reverted to round rings. Oh point of interest, Froome lives and dies by these oval rings, AND he is a heel striker!
Is it typical for you to be just soft pedaling along and still going 25mph (40km/hr)? When I'm riding by myself, I usually have to pedal quite a bit just to hold on to 34 km/hr. Granted, I'm not on a race bike, but still, I'm always pedaling with quite a bit of effort. I guess the draft is helping. It certainly is a very classy looking bike. I wonder what Paola thinks about it!
Why 23mm? I run a 2012 853 Bike and thats on 30mm with Campag rim brakes. 23mm make no sense if you want compliance. (100kg rider 80psi rear 75 front). Smooth
Hi Luis, I wonder if you might know if it's possible to check if a vintage steel frame has butted tubes rather than straight ones? Can one poke one's fingers inside and feel for the change in thickness? Unfortunately, when I built up my old Nishiki, I didn't think of doing that while I had the opportunity. I'm sorry to add to your time burden.
Hi. You can flick the tubes with a finger along their length. If they are butted, the noise produced will be of higher pitch in the central zones of the tube, where it will have thinner walls. This has worked for me on steel and aluminium bicycles. Of course, you can also check for decals on the frame indicating fabrication details, or look up the model online if you know it. Hopefully this reply was helpful.
Hi, you mentioned that the dark star top tube is 1 cm longer than your usual length. May i ask if the stem was shorter? Cause i usually ride with a 120cm stem. Contemplating if i get a bike with 1 or 2 cm longer top tube, could i use the stem to offset. Also, may i ask your height?
Hi there, thanks for watching. I am 5'10ish. I normally ride a 110 stem and I thought about going to 100, but in the end I did not change the stem and it works fine for me.
I'm actually interested on a Race bike steel frame. I'm currently looking for a bike that can actually hold the speed well. Prefer steel but if carbon bike have more of the advantage than I'm going with carbon. But my heart wanted the steel, but I want to go faster. Hahaha.....What do you think about the STANDERT RS or the STEEL?
@@cadetoscar6535 Yeah man, especially these days the bikes are so expensive and you can't even try it out. All you can to find out is by the marketing write up and that's are all BS.
I think Luis should ride the Tour next year and test his bike..Now he just needs like 10 more riders to go with him..Won't Luis look good in the yellow jersey?
The weight of a frame , to me, is secondary if not lower, on the list. It's all about feel. I'll take my 81 Myata Pro Aero or my 82/3 SOMEC over anything else I have ridden. Carbon.. owned two. No thanks. Steel and lugs or nothing.
@@savagepro9060 Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have waited a lifetime for this recognition. I am truly humbled... (never)... : ) Building a bike is a craft, making lugs and fitting them is an art.
