I just tried this tonight. The look on the vocalists face is coming from a P 16 to a stereo bus mix with anti-occlusion EQ applied to their channel was priceless. Excellent video, thank you for the info!
Ah, good. The phase switch solution. It works wonderfully quite often. And often on the mix bus rather than the inputs. As to anti-occlusion EQ, I would try to find a curve to place on the IEM mix bus(es) rather than doubling up on Vocal mic channels like that. These two in combination allows some permutational freedom, and is often much simpler
Great video, I've been trying to explain this our tech for years. Two important notes. 1)The level of occlusion can vary by fit (example, custom in ears will seal better and make the boon vibrations more apparent, universal iems less so, and over ear headphones very little) 2) Occlusion happens at a consistent volume. When you raise the mix level the bone Occlusion functions like locked eq points. You may need more or less of a eq correction based on the level of your mix compared to your occlusion. SO Refreshing for someone to dive this deep!
I have been thinking about this kind of thing! This is an amazing idea! Specifically what I discovered last time I played live was that the high bass/low mid bleed from the PA is drowning out everything. We set the in-ears as loud as we were comfortable with, and then when the PA was on and guitar amps and all that stuff, it just ended up becoming mud. Absolutely miserable. Something to consider too, is flipping the polarity of the vocal mic changes how the singer hears their own voice because of the phase difference of the IEM signal VS the bone conduction sound.
Yet another reason to run your vocals through two channels. I now have 3 reasons. 1. Anti-occlusion EQ 2. Reduced compression 3. No auto-tuning I'm yet to implement this though but great food for thought.
This is very educational, thanks a lot! We have a few P16s and our vocal lead have a hard time hearing himself with tracks and other instrument despite many adjustments. I'll have to try making a separate channel for him with a different EQ.
Question: What if the band has 4 or more vocals that something take leads alternatively and use IEM. Would I set up an occlusion each? Can I assume that the rest of band channel is not required since they are all experiencing occlusion? or is the occlusion effect an individual experience that would require 2 channels for each vocalist?
I’ve gotta disagree heavily on not compressing the vocal monitor. As a singer in a band, and as studio engineer who works with tons of singers, compressing the vocal is crucial to the singers ability to perform and feel confident singing. If it wasn’t for cymbal bleed, I’d slam 20db of compression when I’m singing haha.
@@MFKitten im not saying this doesn’t happen, but I’ve been playing in bands with usually 3-5 bands per show for 17 years now, and I can’t think of a single singer where I thought “they’re not singing close enough to the mic”. The exception being singers who don’t like putting their mouth on a venue mic that 30 other people have sang on since it was last cleaned, but that has nothing to do with the monitoring haha. I’ve definitely seen it with like people giving speeches where they think the mic should stay like right above their stomach, but not singers who have even just a moderate amount of experience. I’ve also never heard an singer complain about too much vocal volume live, but I’ve constantly heard singers complain about not having enough. Again, I’m certainly not saying this doesn’t happen. I’ve just never experienced it or heard of any singer suggest this.
@@blakematthews6374 it depends a lot on the singer and the type of singing. I play metal, ao the singer is screaming. Contrary to the name of that method, it's actually very low volume. You need the mic right on the mouth at all times.
I actually prefer vocals very compressed in their ears as well. I want them to keep their mouth in the mic so that the proximity effect remains consistent. I don’t like when singers pull out of the mic at all
I do the same thing except I heavily compress the duplicated IEM vocal channel and then use a mix of both channels in my ears. That parallel compression gives me more control of my vocal performance so I don’t feel like I always have to sing loud to cut through the mix. It helps me sing more dynamically. Flipping the phase can also help. When faced with a quick soundcheck I sometimes just ask to highpass at 250 Hz on my whole IEM buss or adjust the EQ directly in my bodypack.
Is there a rough setting you could share with me for compression on IEM vocal? I find when I sing loud it’s a bit tough on the ears, and as you say when you pull off the mic you lose the vocal in proximity. Threshold ratio attack release? Is there a rough template I could try and then maybe tweak.
I want to try this...the problem is that I'm doing three instruments at a time- voice, guitar, and midi bass foot pedals 😐 I might be able to make the vocals clearer, but it will affect something else... Yes, I just need to give up the midi bass pedals perhaps...
I know this vid is a year old, but I am new to in ears and my question is rather than a new channel can you show a workable EQ on the P16 that helps reduce occlusion for the vocalist on their P16?
Interesting! Do you also know of a way to eq only certain channels this way without adding each vocal to a second channel? In our band we are all using IEM (5 stereo mixes) and adding additional channels would mean 10 vocal channels (mono). I am using a X32 Rack mixer with an additional S16
This is confusing. You keep mentioning CH1 and setting the occlusion EQ. However, you aren't sending CH1 to FOH, correct? If so, that means the vocalist has to channels assigned to his mic. One to be dressed and sent to IEM only, and the other set for FOH. Is that what I'm understanding?
This is only for the monitor mix. I guess in this scenario there is a separate console for FOH. Channel 1 with the anti occlusion EQ is sent only to the vocalist's mix and channel 2 to the other band member's mixes. Again, FOH in this case is a completely different, third, mix of the vocal channel. Does this make sense?
Same signal, into two channels, but processed differently: Ch1 is sent just to the performer’s IEM mix. Ch2 is sent to everyone else’s IEM mixes (and FOH if it’s the same board). This is how I run vox for IEMs on a CL5.
He does explain how the dual channel method works, though it can be easy to miss. Ch1’s only function is to go through the vocalist’s IEM mix, it doesn’t go anywhere else. Ch2 is taking exactly the same signal source as Ch1 (ie, both using Input 1 on the back of the console), and is then mixed for FOH and rest of the band monitor mix. For larger bands and groups the more practical method is to have two entirely separate consoles receiving the same set of signal inputs, one mixing FOH, and the other mixing monitor outputs for the band. In either case you’re able to tailor the signal processing ideally for whoever or whatever needs to hear it or reproduce it. So yes, you’re correct in understanding that the console has 2 channels for the same input. However, the vocalist has Ch1 (anti-occlusion) turned up in their mix, and the band/FOH turns up Ch2 (dressed, comp’d, EQ’d etc). Neither of those mixes will use BOTH channels at the same time
Thank you a lot! I have one question, what is the reason the vocalist would put the mic further if you compress it? I think I don't get it. Doesn't the compression reduce the volume sensation and would make the vocalist use the mic closer?
The “compression “ reduces the dynamic range. The singer will instinctively and unsuccessfully try to recover the dynamics. If they’re singing softly, that’s what they expect to hear. It might be too soft for FOH, hence the compression.
Also in live situations you're generally using a dynamic mic and dynamic mics have proximity effect. A significant amount of compression plus that proximity effect might not be what the vocalist wants from the mic. With in-ears you can have a quieter stage and the vocalist could run his mic hotter but keep it further from his mouth, reducing plosives, reducing proximity effect, and having a cleaner and more expressive sound.
@@JalenRawleyso are you saying to run the gain higher and the IEM vocal send? So when you pull away from the mic on louder singing parts you can still hear yourself? I’m not currently using any compression on my IEM vocal and I struggle with the following: Louder singing parts are too piercing on the ear, but quieter parts are normal… if I back too far away from the mic I then can’t really hear myself… which for louder notes then effects your ability to deliver the note properly. Any cures for this. The occlusion EQ works great I just struggle to get the correct volume where I sing normally but I’m not bashing my ears on the louder parts
@@TheOneMoreSongCast The difficulty in running compression on vocal mics live is that it compresses the peaks and raises the level of everything else, so it's much easier for the mic to feedback as it'll start picking up the PA or monitors easier. If everyone is using IEMs and there's no need for monitor wedges, the mics are much less likely to feed back. The mics would have to pick up the main PA in order to feed back. You can never eliminate all of the stage volume with a live band, unless the drummer is using all electronic drums. You're always going to have something bleeding into the mic that compression will bring out more of. Try some compression on your vocal mic and just be ready for feedback or for hearing more of the onstage bleed. If your compressor tells you how many db you're compressing, try just shaving a little bit off of the top like a limiter would. Low threshold, low ratio, fast attack, fast release. One rule of thumb I like to go by is the 3db rule. The ear can only really notice increments of 3db, so I like to start there. See what 3db of compression sounds like, then try 6db. Mess with the attack and release times for how you sing. Sing your loudest part the way you would normally sing it and see how much you can hear the compression squashing it down. Then sing the quietest phrase and see if that seems louder. I always run compression on vocal mics whenever I do live sound, but I also am probably the one who rang out the PA/monitors and know where any feedback might come from. I also always have one hand on the faders of the vocal mics or vocal mic bus so I can ride the faders manually so I have more control over the situation. I can't do all that if I'm performing so it's a very set-and-forget thing for me in that situation. The compression just helps even out the peaks and the valleys, helping to even out the dynamic range. Loud sounds get squashed down, quieter sounds get boosted by raising the overall output level. You'll still have control by working the mic, but you'll find that you don't have to move it as close or as far with more compression. The negative aspects are bleed (background noise on stage spilling into the mic) and compression artifacts (pumping, squashing, making things sound unnatural). I try and make compression super obvious to my ears and then pull it back until it sounds natural again. Then I set the attack and release times based on whatever it is I need the compression to grab, when to grab it, and when to let it go. For myself I use an SM57 (never a 58) and I set it up nice and hot with a little compression (about 3-5db at 1:2 with fast attack and release). With a 57, there's no ball and you're right on the capsule, so if you get mashed right up into it you ARE going to hear yourself, no matter what's going on. With it nice and hot and that little bit of compression, if I'm not standing right in front of the mic I can actually hear the stage bleeding into it. If I'm too close to the drummer and I'm getting a lot of cymbal bleed, I'll use some low pass and cut some highs off of it, a little on the pre and a little in my aux send. I don't want to hear the mic capsule (meaning pops, plosives, that smashed sound) so I don't want to be all mashed up on the mic unless I can't hear myself. I set the compressor so I can hear it grab when I'm really close to the mic and that keeps it from being ten times louder than when I'm 4-6" back from the mic, which is where I want to be.
Most well-tuned IEMs have about 8-10 db of pinna gain to compensate, boosting the 1-5Khz area. The conclusion effect doesn't really sound like your example, and I find that applying your occlusion EQ makes it sound unnatural.
Have a Midas 32R Live-new getting used to it. Similar config to the x32. I’m transitioning to in ears, only vocalist to use iem. How can I get a separate eq vocal mix of my channel to my iem from the house and floor monitors? I think you hit on it briefly. I have a separate bus channel for my iem. Thanks!
I would have thought that too little compression on the vocal mic would cause the singer to back off the mic, because he is shouting in his own ear. I have never tried sending less compression to the ears only, but I also don't have enough channel for that. So I would need to either send the signal with the compression or completely without. I try to compress my vocals in different stages. 1. Tone shaping compression with small ratio 2. Dynamic limiting with La2a simulation 3. Group compression just for the PA
Hey Drew! It seems like I have run into multiple suggestions of doubling up channels for vocals for better monitor setup. Sadly for me I am out of channels. Right now we run the m32 with 2-DL16s and don't have any more channels so I can double up. I am guess the best move would be to get another m32 and add it as a monitor board. Can I double the inputs without having to have a physical xlr splitter?
Yes, if you add a second x/m32 just for monitoring, you can daisy-chain both mixers digitally via the AES50 protocol, same as the DL-16s. You have to decide, which mixer controls the pre-amps and does the gain staging, usually the first after the stage boxes. The other m32 can use a digital trim instead of directly controlling the pre-amps.
@@shelbyhanneman It is actually not too hard, if you have connected and routed the DL-16s successfully. Here is Drew's corresponding video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qS326ETXlu8.html
@@shelbyhanneman Here is the video on which even three x/m33 consoles are connected the same way. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rTLHcfao8pI.html
Im not sure I agree with the compression comments on a lead vocal. First off i buck the traditional "mic technique" taught by most engineers because when a vocalist pulls the mic away for a section they are going to sing very loud, you're less in control as the engineer, and you're potentially picking up more stage noise. As worship leader and technical director who for many years controlled my own in-ear mix, and who has been an audio engineer for many years, i did much better with heavy compression on my own vocal because I could hear myself much better in lower volume song sections, lower pitched parts, and I knew when I did belt it I was going to be keeping peaks in check because I knew exactly how I had my compression set. When I run front of house I prefer keeping my lead vocalists in compression constantly. Usually around 7-8db of compression and only in super loud moments I would allow for 9-11db of compression. This doesnt work so well if my vocalist keeps pulling the mics back away from their mouths. It has to all be very intentional.
Really excellent! On stage, most everyone is on IEMs. In my recording studio, only about 24% will bring in their IEMs. I assume there a different occlusion pattern for open back and closed back headphones. How can I measure occlusion on the closed back headphones that I use in my studio?
I want to try this on my iem setup, but I can't eq lead vocal channel separately from all the other AUX sends. So I'm thinking if I duplicate the lead vocal input and apply the eq curve to the copy, lead singer can use that for their reference, while the rest of us can use the regular unaffected input to hear them. Thoughts?
So if I understand this correctly, the idea would be that after this EQ curve is applied to the IEM mix, the artist would be hearing more of the low end from the stage and more of the mids from their IEMs and the combination of those two sources would add and give them the full spectrum of their voice. Correct?
Drew what other ways are my IEM volume going up and down what ways is the sound man doing to raise and lower iem is there a way to set it up to only I can adjust it
I’ve been having this problem lately, so I’ve been cranking the reverb to try and help out. Definitely using this trick next band practice. The videos are the best! Edit: I added this eq to my vocals, and oh my. That’s made massive difference!!!
@@JeremyLeech The reason I did it was because I found that click sounds with a longer tail helped a lot. If you can do beeps with a longer decay (I have resorted to literally a square wave on a synth plugin with juat the right decay settings), and stereo reverb to make it not just in the centre, it will be super clear. Another tip: play white noise, listen for sharp ringing peaks in the high end and then notch EQ it out (you'll probably have one in the 6k-10k range because of the resonance in the space between the driver and your eardrum). Only dip it down until it sounds less harsh. Do the same with any other ringing peaks that are just native to the IEMs themselves, and then compensate with a high shelf boost to get the relative brightness balanced. You'll be saving your hearing and you'll have superior clarity. Many IEMs actually have the treble focused in a few harsh peaks, and it's hard to tell what's going on other than "yeah that's bright".
If anyone is wondering how to do this on an allen and heath cq12t: Just dedicate one aux send to your vocals, take a patch cable and patch from the aux output to an empty channel input. Then send the original vocal channel to mains and mix them normally, but send the duplicate to the in ear monitor mix and EQ out the occlusion on that duplicate channel.
@@electronik808you’d be applying the aux EQ to everything on that aux bus. So any other instrument would sound thin and trebly. If you’re applying aux EQ to the aux that is effectively duplicating the main vocals, you definitely could, but I find it easier to have all my individual channels EQ’ed at the channel level. Probably best way to do this is have a mic splitter. That way you’re not introducing a tiny amount of latency from the d/a then a/d conversion from the patch.
@@zachswiftmusicah so the curve is only for the vocal itself not other channels!! i see can i do a less drastic curve and do it on the bus? maybe just cut 400 and boost a bit in the 2/3k?
@@electronik808that’s right, the occlusion happens because your voice is resonating in your head as you sing and you’re still hearing all the low end. So removing the low end from your vocal signal compensates for that.
Very interesting, when I initially saw this I was expecting you to talk about flipping the polarity of the vocal mic not an eq change. From a little paying around with this myself a while ago I felt that flipping the polarity would cause my ears to cancel out the occlusion happening in my head, I can’t remember if it sounded natural or just better. Or have I been talking out of my ass this entire time?
Really depends on the room from my experience. Indoors i tend to decrease the lowcut a bit. Outdoors (Festivals and stuff) i often increase the lowcut to make up for the "rumbling" subs. I also compress it pretty hard (almost limiting it) and / or sidechain it to the snare. This way the audience mic will come down in volume whenever there's a snare hit as this can sometimes be pretty loud in the audience mics.
Great information. Thank you. My question is are you also sending the Occlusion channel for the lead vocalist to the FOH mix or just the second channel created for the band?
Good stuff! Is there something similar for horn players? A sax player in a former band of mine had similar problems, but I guess the EQ must have a different shape. Could you link to any deeper information about this? Thanks so much!
Hi Drew. First of all, thank you for your great videos. I've already learned a lot from it. Keep it up. My question. Can I listen to my bandmates' IEM mix via my IEM? I work with Mixing Station, my mixer is the X32 fullsize. Thank you in advance for your answer.
i will soon be mixing monitors for IEM's for the first time, so this info is truly priceless! I had no idea but it makes perfect sense. Pretty sure the Shure bodypacks have PEQ built right in. I wonder if WWB can access that? That would be cool as all get go, cos once it's dialed in the file can be stored and always sound the same.
Yep. Assuming every vocalist needs to hear and be heard by other members. That's why dedicated monitor consoles and engineers become more common for bigger performance acts: to set up, keep track of, and run all the mixes at once. Especially if just the normal inputs alone are already way over 32.
I use the bus tap eq, put the tap where it suits me (after desser, board eq, combinator, before main compressor, then you don’t have to burn up a parallel channel.
It’s a different curve and approach for each IEM mix because everybody hears just slightly differently. The trick is to balance cutting the muffle with boosting the space/clarity or characteristic tonal range they play off of/key into/expect to hear.
This is great information. I have taken this and messed about with it on my mixer and it definitely sounds clearer. The issue I always struggle with is the isolation effect of having my ears plugged. It feels like I’m listening to CD, not giving a live performance. Also, if someone tries to talk to me between songs, I can’t hear them at all! Do you have any advice to combat this situation, other than adding in room mics? For context, I’m mostly playing bar gigs or private/corporate functions with a 5 piece band, so it’s not uncommon for audience members to yell out requests or want to talk to you. We run a pretty much silent stage, using amp modellers and E drums with a Turbosound column array PA and Presonus Studiolive 64 mixer. Thanks in advance.
@@saminatorx20 that’s too much hassle when you are mixing yourself from the stage. The levels are always changing and apart from that, I don’t think it helps much anyway!
