Balder's narration in the first game made it seem like that the witches used assassinations and more undercover methods to gain an edge in the war not just simply being more powerful.
This is a very good point. I guess, in this kind of war, you can't rely on just power. The Umbra Witches were smarter or more cunning and used what they could for their advantage.
Anyone else kinda hoping we get a good Lumen Sage at some point? They kinda get labelled as "the bad guys" in the context of the series lore which is sorta missing the point
@@mickeybat5816 I mean that is true but throughout most of Bayonetta 2 he's an antagonist and he's outright a villain in Bayonetta 1 so it would be neat to have a Lumen Sage that isn't an antagonist and maybe even playable like how Viola has several chapters focused around playing as her in Bayonetta 3
@@nathanblackburn1193 He's the villain of bayo one because of what happened at the end of 2. He attacks Loki specifically because he saw him as the person who killed his lover and Bayonetta was defending him.
What Kamiya means is that the reason Sages are male and Witches are female is because the western european clans in Vigrid enforced exclusion. If you were a woman with -midichlorians- spirit power who wanted to become a Sage, you still could make a pact with an Archangel and gain the powers of a Sage, but if you showed up to Sunrise valley and asked to join, the Lumen would throw you out and not share any of their secrets and techniques with you, such as fighting style, weaponry, and age stopping watches. And vice versa for male witches. Witches were never really considered female exclusive, many men were also accused of being witches in history, because the name means "one who practices witchcraft" In my opinion, I think Jeanne would have an interest in reviving the Umbra clan in the future, and after seeing how badly the clans plan to prevent interbreeding turned out, and that Cereza actually wasn't the one to destroy them but rather they destroyed themselves because of her, I think she wouldn't have any reason to continue to enforce male exclusion. I'm sure some multiverse explanation can be given to explain the return of a surviving sage who might feel the same and become an ally. I think it would be strange to continue onwards to "Bayonetta 9" as Kamiya says without at some point reviving the clans into Neo Lumen Sages and Neo Umbra Witches. Only problem I see with my theory is that Kamiya might keep the witches only female just so that they will be sexy but he asked a male who was dressed as bayonetta on twitter tp marry him so who knows lmao.
Children born of a member of one of the clans are trained to become a full sage or witch. If they don't have powers, they are exiled or, at the very least, distanced from. I think that the reason the balance of power was shifted when Cereza was born was because if the child born had powers, they would either become a witch or a sage and thus having two magic parents to teach or influence would become too powerful for one side since you can't be both a witch and a sage. While I like the idea of male witches (they can still be sexy anyway), the games always refer to the witches as women so I don't think we will likely see any. The games also never refer to any sages as women and all (lol all 3 of the "named" ones) are referred to as male. I think it'd be great to see male Umbra Witches and female Lumen Sages (honestly any Lumen Sages). Unfortunately, Kamiya says a lot of things and doesn't always stick to those things so it is very hard to use him as an external source. I try to only use his word when I can't find any in-game notes or lore saying so. I do also agree that it wasn't Cereza's fault but their own fears of a prophecy that led to their own self-fulfilled destruction.
@@UmbranLumen True, but I don't remember any instance of the lore text explicitly contradicting this, or even stating that the light is "masculine" and the dark "feminine" There's really nothing there other than the observable truth that every on-screen character we've seen has fit into that boundary of all male or all female, so I feel Kamiya's statement fits perfectly in place of what we know, at least for now. Also the general logic of: "What if Viola was born male?" I don't think Whittingham Bayo would have been content to not teach her son what she knows about using his inherited spirit energy, and would still have given him Cheshire. So, it wouldn't have ended up much different from Viola. Also, I have a theory that the prophecy the witches and sages were scared of if they were to breed together, was actually the catalyst for Aesir splitting into two beings. The only reasons for my theory is that it's quite coincidental, and entirely unexplained why Aesir split seemingly not long before the witch hunts. Loptr and Loki seem to age very slowly, considering they look like middle school age during the witch hunts, but Loptr looks like he's around 30 or so in modern day. Loki reincarnates as a baby in the end of 2, so I think Aesir's split gave birth to Loptr and Loki, and if that "birth" was shared with Cereza's birth, I could see how they would still appear so young during the witch hunts. (Since Cereza aged normally before taking her Witchly Vows) But the bigger reason why I have this theory is because it would make it so the plot of 2 is also connected to Cereza's existence and make the whole looping plot of both games start and end at her, rather than starting at "Aesir split for an unknown reason"
As for Bayonetta 4, I’d like to see the return of the Lumen Sages as either a antagonist in some way. It be similar to the final chapter of Bleach with the lost tribe of Quincies.
I think that the Clan Wars started for sure when Balder and Rosa had Cereza. We don’t know for sure, but as it is stated that this catastrophic event threw the powers off balance- perhaps the Infernal and Divine were uncontrollable as seen in Bayonetta 2- maybe angels attacked witches unprovoked or the demons attacked the sages and created tension between the clans (or even some terrible accidents that led to the war!) I’m guessing the Lumen Sages wanted to bring Jubileus back to reset the power balances (in Paradiso’s favor of course) but the witches knew that this would really upset the balance and thus the Clan Wars raged on. Like I said this is just speculation from the lore, but I wish events from that time were shown more elaborately in the games. (THAT should have been a Bayonetta Origins title.)
I hope that the series expands Umbran and Lumen sages to different ethnic groups and cultures in the bayonetta series. It be cool to see Umbran witches and Lumen Sages that are from other parts of the world .
Huge fan of these lore overviews. So many great details to go over. Am looking forward to the Accessories video since there's just SO much additional lore packed into each one of those.
In my school vr game Goalius has a z move that only umbra witches can use pacificly dark Knight mare eclipse (what it do is that once active Goalius takes off 2 blood moons appear with 9 red rings Goalius fires a energy beam through the ring each ring amps up the power and deatroy the target) but if you are not a umbra witch you will turn into a demon
I would say that the witches were stronger on average than the sages because of the contract with the demons. Not that the demons made them stronger but that they had to fight for their lives everyday in order to preserve their immortality and prevent their souls from being dragged into inferno.
@@nicco_drawings1756 it's not about being able to use a summon it's that the demons demand daily sacrifices where the angels will just take your soul when you die. Because the angels are more patient the sages are allowed to relax and that makes them weaker in combat if they're not going out of their way to train.
Not really the beginning of the game highlighted how they won. The witches played dirty, due their darker nature. The prologue told of how they would use subterfuge and assassinations. The lumen sages were probably more honor bound to engage in direct confrontation. So I don’t think they were stronger but they were willing to use dirty tactics which were effective
2:15 Idk about "each clan spoke english". I think it's just convenient from a player's perspective to have all characters speak english, yet Loki in the second game is in Noatun, in the Middle East, and Bayonetta is not surprised at all that he speaks english (with a british accent too). That would also not make a lot of sense since in the first game we can see that Vigrid is located in the south of France, and "Isla del Sol" is spanish, so if there was one language that the clans could've spoken in addition to enochian it would be french and/or spanish. Also Jeanne's name is *incredibly* french. I mean, Jeanne d'Arc ( = "joan of arc", because the english changed how it is written when translating it for some reason, but the initial name is Jeanne). And "Cereza" is spanish for cherry, and "Rosa" is spanish for rose (Also I just checked, apparently Balder is from Old Norse). Maybe there were witches/sages in many countries but they all gathered in Vigrid (France) because of the spiritual energy and that's why they have names from different countries ? But yeah I think the "english" is not really canon, but that's arguable. (Also as a french I'd love for the Umbra Witches/Lumen Sages to be french, THAT'd be something to be proud of xDDD).
I said they speak English because the clans spoke English and continued to speak English into the future. I know Vigrid and Noatun are based on non-English speaking locations, I just notice that the people of Vigrid do speak English (for example, the guards and Balder) and I just came to the conclusion that Vigrid is an English speaking location. I do like your conclusion though I just drew a conclusion that made sense to me for the video. But at the very least they do speak Enochian lol Edit: While researching something, I found out Cereza is not a Spanish name, it is actually a Polish name. Rosa as a name ranges multiple languages in origin but it is not just a Spanish name either.
@@UmbranLumen In concept art and discarded notes, Bayo was meant to be spanish instead of british, but Kamiya thought a british accent was sexier. The names Rosa and Cereza probably originated way back then and it was kept as is. As for Vigrid, its highly based on Barcelona's park Güell which is located in Spain, but theres definitely italian and french vibes to the aesthetic too. So yeah its all over the place. Honestly i think vigridians speak at the very least enochian, because the alphabet in the streets is in enochian.
Yup, to me, I think only the European clans that we focus on in the games were gender-separated. The way other cultures handle magic and the concepts of sages/witches could mean other clans could be coed.
I do wish we got to see more of the witches and sages, particularly to see what the standard of quality would be, at least more than "standing still while shooting until easily killed". For example while the three witches we have in-depth are primarily contracted to Madamas we don't know if that is the exception or the rule. Gameplay-wise it would be safe to assume that most witches would have similar health as starting Bayonetta due to the lack of availability of broken witch hearts, but just what techniques outside of the moonwalk are up in the air, and there's the question of just how strong they'd be in fighting the angels. The sages are even more of an unknown. Is the double-bladed sword their standard issue, what about the spells? We don't even know the extent they go demon-slaying the way witches go angel-slaying. All-in-all we are sorely in need of a prequel or alternate universe where the clans weren't practically wiped out.
You brought up how uneven the power balance between both clans is portrayed. And I think it's to compensate the difference in circumstances: The Lumen Sages train under the sun, reach full power at noon (like Escanor and Sir Gawain), they work with cooperative Angels, live comfortable lifes and don't fear death, because the're taken to Paradiso after perishing. The Umbra Witches on the other hand, are stigmated, endure harsh training in the night, reach only their full power on a full moon, have to deal with dangerous Demons and live with the anxiety of wandering Inferno for all eternity after death. On could say the Witche's suffering in life and death goes the "Pain & Gain" route and grants them greater emotional potential, compared to the Sage's "Life of Privilege". And they are the "bad guys", so they gotta lose and they Witches need to have endure some sort of cruel injustice, for the story to have a tragedy surrounding the main characters.
Both Clans were predominately one sexed. The Umbra being Matriarchal, and the Lumen Patriarchal; however, the opposite sex still had their place. For the Lumen, I'd wager women would be scholars, caregivers, and/or "Nuns". With the Umbra, their men were... "Allowed" to be "Witches"; however, it was never stated how. I figure that very few, if any, of the Male Witches were able to properly contract an Infernal Demon, and would be stuck with the powers of a Witch that "didn't" require a Contract. From what I can gather these are Witch Time, Beast With-in, the Bullet Arts (I think they would only use two guns, if that, or perhaps swords and such.), travel to Purgatorio, and of course Concoction. They would either be shock troops, or... other roles depending on the stories/theories you're in to. I would also imagine that not all of them used their hair with their magic; utilizing other catalysts like magically imbued string, or paper even for a few examples. With the Clan Wars taking its toll on them, and the severity of the Witch Hunts, the Umbra more willingly accepted anyone who could manipulate Spiritual Energy. I do have sort of a "joke" Male Witch Character who managed a Contract with Baal. While he wasn't really know for being a fighter, and believe me he could take on some of the strongest Paradiso had to offer, he served more as a Ballet Instructor for Young Witches. And, despite Cereza not being allowed to learn the Dark Arts, he would sneak her lessons that were just regular Ballet to at least get her ready for the motions, and one of the few Witches who actually cared for her; believing it wrong to mistreat her for something she had no say in, and that two people falling in love with each other cannot be helped. For love is something any number of dead Gods/Goddesses truly have no power to stop.
0:05 I love how they specify "two European clans-"😂😂😂😂 Also, if the golem was too powerful to control, how did they manage to seal it away? I feel like that's a logical question😂😂😂
Ok so I haven't read all the lore books in the game, but I did read a few, and what you just said in the video confirms what I was suspecting. I don't know which book exactly, but I remember reading that the powers of the witches are not hereditary, or at least, you can be child of a witch and not have powers, but *you can also have powers without being part of the clan* . And unless I misunderstood, you confirmed that in the video (11:15). Soooo how are witches and sages "extinct" ? Because people with powers would still be born throughout history ? Maybe the angels killed all children who showed they had powers ? And Arguably the witch hunts continued. Also I'm guessing the traditions and teachings of the clans were lost, and that a child with magic can not do a lot without proper training and knowledge ? With that being said, it DOES mean that new witches and sages could appear, or already exist, even though they may be less powerful than Jeanne and Bayonetta since they don't have the training from the original clan (maybe that's what Viola is, she certainly has a modern look and doesn't seem to have "conventional" witch powers). Anyway I just found your channel out and I'm really enjoying these videos, - as you may have noticed - it got me thinking and theorizing a lot.
yes! you are right! Balder was the last sage and he didnt train any new Lumen Sages (most likely because he got possessed by loptr) and the only witches who could continue with the Umbran Clan are Jeanne and Cereza but for now they dont seem interested in it and about the possibility of small groups of witches and sages alive you may be right, specially since the witch hunts happened ONLY in Europe but some accessories descriptions talk about witches in Africa, America and even Asia
@@mayonetta1406 I find it hilarious how I wrote this comment before Bayo 3 came out, and then it turned out that said game used absolutely nothing from the potential many loose threads left by the previous games. I mean how awesome would it have been if Viola had been a self-taught modern witch who meets Bayonetta and gets mentor'd by her and Jeanne so that she gets better (because obviously by herself as I said in my first comment she wouldn't have been able to completely harness her powe). How awesome would it have been to have a new Lumen sage ? Or a group of new Witches that Bayo has to protect from the angels wanting to keep magic out of human hands ? Anyway instead we got shady multiverse pseudo-tragic-but-mostly-incoherent storyline. At least the gameplay's awesome.
Question, where does it state that children are taught magic if they were born in the witches homeland? I'm asking because I thought you needed a pact to be able to use any type of magic at all.
It says it in Antonio's Notebook in the first game, specifically "About The Umbra Witches - I". To clarify some confusion, you need to make a pact with a demon to be able to summon them and use their power. For example, in the first game, Cereza was able to enchant her glasses so Luka could see the angels. This is an example of innate magic ability.
@@UmbranLumen So in that picture with Cereza and Jeanne summoning Little devils did they make a pact with them? Or is summoning them considered lower ranked magic due to them being lower ranked demons?
Umbra Witches as a clan made a pact with Inferno to be able to summon demons which is why the souls of Umbra Witches go to Inferno when they die. They can also make individual pacts with demons to gain that individual demon's power. Like Bayonetta and Madama Butterfly.
Wait what ? How did you get the old Umbran Witch narrator for the One of a Kind section of the game ?? Isn't the narrator of this part supposed to be a random old guy ? I mean it's oviously better and more meaningful like that but how did you get this ????
Sega released a bunch of videos of other characters doing the intro. The Umbran Elder was supposed to be the original one I believe. The narrator is also Antonio Redgrave, Luka's father. ru-vid.com/group/PL1A143770C60D95B8
This is a really great question! If we are talking about Lord Aesir, the original incarnation, then I would say they would be evenly matched with Lord Aesir having an edge because of the Eyes of The World, but if we are talking about the final boss in Bayonetta 2, then Jubileus would be stronger since the Eyes of the World were destroyed making Aesir/Loptr only half (being generous) his original strength. My reasoning is that Jubileus during the First Armageddon was at the apex of it but the destruction of the universe forced her into Paradiso and an eternal slumber where Aesir was formed as a result of the universe's destruction. Aesir had the Eyes of the World which could control reality. So I guess the short answer is depends. But this is my interpretation since it isn't really stated anywhere who is stronger, just that they are in charge of their respective realms.
I got it from this playlist here. It is the Umbran Elder speaking, The playlist has other characters doing the intro instead of Antonio Redgrave. ru-vid.com/group/PL1A143770C60D95B8
If the Himiko described in Evil Harvest Rosary is Queen Himiko who was a queen of Yamatai-koku in Wakoku, then maybe. One of the most popular interpretations in Japanese media of Himiko is a sorceress but solely based on the description in game, it implies Himiko has no powers otherwise she wouldn't need a witch at her service.
Here is a playlist of other characters speaking the intro. The guy who says it in the final game is actually Luka's father, Antonio Redgrave. ru-vid.com/group/PL1A143770C60D95B8
