MORE BAD MECHS (and what to take instead!) BATTLETECH- The Mech Lab. 

Slight correction mechwarriors. It's been a while since I read the crit rules. The units with 1 ton of ammo in the 4-6 slots in their side torsos don't auto-crit the ammo. I'm not sure why I thought they did lol. I'm not sure if this changes my opinion on whether you should use that ammo first or not, though. Anyways, thanks for pointing that out to the kind people in the comments!

If your scout is kicking the enemy, he has already failed at his job.

The thing about the Crusader, you are supposed to keep firing, even if you have poor shots. An empty ammo bin won't explode.

You are completely correct on the Crusader. Once the opponent gets through the armor, the Crusader just falls apart.

That's not how crit rolls work. If ammo, for example, is the ONLY thing in the 4-6 set of slots on a torso (or arm, for that matter), you don't automatically hit it on a roll of 4-6. You still have to roll the second dice, and if the second dice gets a "roll again" result, you reroll BOTH dice.

It kills me that the Shadow Hawk is as bad as it is, because it's one of my favorites in terms of looks.

Understood. Selling Cicada-3C. Getting Locust-1M.

My friend is obsessed with Cicadas

Now that you mentioned the Archer, it was funny how the new FM: Kurita 'fixed' ARC-2K's heat issue by removing one LL and giving a hatchet instead. Totally worth it imo

I once lost a Cyclops due to a first turn thru armor crit on the CT ammo. Given it was in Megamek as an example battle so I didn't pick the lineup. Important lesson, that one.

Again I am digging this content. Battletech has a lot going on, getting 'better' at it can be daunting. Early on it is hard to know what is good, let alone why.

Worst Walking Bomb mech: Hammer Hands. 4 tons of AC-10 ammo, in 4 locations. Both side toros and both arms. Also, nothing else in the torso at all. Any crit = kaboom.

the 2-D is just a victim of the overweight Autocannon problem that's plague BT since 3050 and I'd argue before, since Double Heatsinks became a thing. like, 9 tons for what amounts to a long range, 4-slot, cool medium laser that has a chance to explode? I can get that with a Chemical Laser and I'd still be lighter. seriously, knock it down to a 6 ton, 2-slot weapon plus ammo, then we'll talk. Side note, When the heck does a 40mm cannon weigh 6 tons? I mean yeah there's the ammo feed and whatnot but even a single ground mount Bofors from ww2 weighed like 4 tons, including the carriage. AC/2's just being dumb and useless.

Well, for the Crusader and the Longbow their other variantions are totally fine at least (-3K and -3D, -7Q for example) , without needing to go for totally different 'Mech like the Archer

9:51 Its just like you said: one of the rules of mech design is "Shelter the big guns!"

in near 40 yrs of play I have found the ARC-2S Archer to be one of, if not the best Heavy Mech in the Introtech era. I do agree with the too much SRM ammo bit. Would have been better served with an extra heat sink.

Great video! Looking forward to more videos and updates.

First time I've seen the Phoenix 3R brought up on BattleTech youtube. Love that guy.

I've actually used the Crusader a lot. The idea is that the design is a team player emptying it's LRMs in the early stages of the game as it closes. Then, in later stages the mech finishes off targets with SRM crits.

Someone recommended the Worthless! I love the Whitworth so much.

There is a reason why the game has modification/construction rules. You can make them better.

I like the LRM-Ontos for missile support even if it is a bit slow. For close range defence you can park a regular ontos next to it.

Yes changing the weapons loadout on mechs. Even changing the armor. I like taking a Shadow Hawk and arming it with srms/ AC5/ Medlazers. It actually becomes a good all around mech. But, yes there are better ones out there. If you can choose. But if your stuck with a mech. We'll. Better see if you can mod it.

Whoever stuck you with the SHD-2D is NOT your friend. Hell they ain't even a friendly enemy. The Davion version of the Shadow Hawk is the Davion equivalent of Kurita giving you a Charger. Oh and there is a reason that the nickname for the Whitworth is "Whitworthless". It' doesn't have the armor or the ammo to stay in a fight unless it's lights (and it doesn't have the maneuverability handle lights) and it's not worth putting in a good pilot to maximize your chances of hitting with the LRMs. Besides it Btech. Play what you want. RPG take: This sort of Min/Maxing doesn't really jive with the game. You are going to be assigned a mech based on what's available. There is rarely a choice if your House or Clan. If your a Merc, you might have a little more choice, but honestly with the Mercs you're getting the cast off of what the Houses don't want sooo how does this kind of analysis help. Pick-Up game: I;m not sure that this is helpful, not because what you're saying isn't correct, but again you are undermining (personal preference) the point of some of these mechs. Crusaders are a beast, yes there are ammo issues welcome to 3025. They unload at long range from cover and move up. Cicada's are worthless and deserve only to have their legs used as toothpicks for an Atlas and Shadow Hawk 2Ds are just relegated to players (aka mechwarriors you don't like), until they can prove themselves capable of handling a better mech.

This was very useful, even to an experienced player.

The Whitworth is one of those mechs that the TROs didn't do justice to. I guess it sucks in-universe, but on paper is really quite good as a fourth member of a heavy lance that needs some long range support.

Seeing you recommend the Archer 2S really makes me happy. In the past, I mentioned that I liked the Dervish (mostly for the visual design and it combining LRMs and SRMs in one neat package, even though the mechis objectively inefficient), but the Archer 2S seems to hit all the same spots, only in a package that's actually viable. I dunno, I just like fire support mechs that can stand their ground if they have to, or that have the option to advance and get in closer if they need to. I wonder, what's your opinion on the Viking? That thing is a beast that'll shower an opponent with 70 LRMS every turn... but it can do little else. Whoever thought it would be a good idea to put machineguns to its knees must be a complete fool. Remove those alongside the small lasers, slap a few medium lasers on instead and that mech seems pretty alright in terms of firepower... but a regular LRM carrier offers 60 LRMs at less than half the BV. Still it's a damn sexy design in my eyes.

Always liked the SHD-2D, not as a combat mech, but as a trainer mech since it has all weapon types and is handy for teaching people the game but I agree wholehardedly i'd rather have a good ol Whitworth

Finally some Whitworth love

I kinda agree with the opinion on the Shadow Hawk 2D. The baseline variant is garbage, I don't know anyone who defends that thing. But I do like the design of the Shadow Hawk and especially the hard points of the 2D. Really easy to make it a bit more like the Clan Buster version. As for the Crusader, I've always had great luck with the machine. Slap targets at long range with the LRMs, then blast them with medium lasers and SRMs at close range. That and it just looks really cool! Everything else I pretty much agree with. Well, maybe not the Mauler part. Granted, I don't normally field the Longbow either.

Hum, your on point with those mecha. The Shadow Hawk even when used with infernos or smoke as intended would fold under one or two hits. The Archer is a really good mech. It's hard to compare the Longbow bow to it. Sticking to 3025 the Longbow lacks heat sinks more than armor. Interesting that the Longbow is pointed out. I am ok with those notes. They are a merror to my own.

For me nowdays, I find I want my mechs to be Mobile enough to use their weaponry. I'll make a hot, or IDK maybe even a cold take at this point. Battlemaster VS Atlas, I think the Battlemaster beats the Atlas a vast majority of the time as a Linebreaker. It can consistently get a +2 TMM, and more importantly can get into close combat 1 to 2 turns earlier than the Atlas often can. It's also 380 or so BV cheaper, allowing for a better lance composition overall, especially in Late Succession era Battletech.

Normally I watch these and want to pick a fight afterwards. And outside of the Shadow Hawk having some sexy late era refits worthy of your time (the one with that MML is a personal favorite) I can’t disagree with any of this. Plus, as someone who’s used a Firebee, I get it. It’s actually pretty good, just a little obscure. And from Liao.

Have you talked about the Champion? I can't make that thing work anywhere. It has to be one of the worst overall mechs. Many of the pre clan Archers are really solid, I am fond of the ARC-2S. I feel that the Stalker STK-3Fb is the best fire support mech. It's not too crazy with lost tech and really solid on crits. You could swap your longbow for a Stalker STK-3H or Awesome ASW-8T also if you aren't allowing any lost tech. Ironically I like to use the Shadowhawk SHD-2D and 2D2 in MW5 since they have an extra medium laser slot. I usually take out all that extra SRM nonsense and then max out the armor though.

Maulers are fantastic mech, so little BV for so much work and armor! I would say it's just a 40% chance of an ammo crit in the torsos as well, which by the time they are making it through the armor, you should have shot a lot of those bins down (remember you re-roll BOTH the location dice if you hit a re-roll space). I've survived bin explosions because of the added structure the Mauler comes with, unlike many mechs. Also I would be careful with mech to vehicle comparisons, you can't really just compare there armor and weapons. The vehicle will always win in that comparison against any mech. There is a lot of mobility, crits, visibility (they are only level 1 at all times), and concentration of damage into fewer locations, along with other differences and so it's really a apples to oranges comparison. Vehicles are great, but they serve very different situations than mechs. Lastly the Cicada is much more survivable than the locust. That is what you take it for, which is not always needed. But it's not all about armor, it has double the structure. Also as an aside if you are one of those people that like using lights to run behind mechs and kick them. You are getting twice the damage out of the Cicada than the Locust. Along with a flamer that if there is infantry, vehicles, or even just semi-hot mechs will serve you better than the smalls of the locust. And sadly yes... so many of the chassis of the Shadow Hawk are just hot garbage. Which is so sad for such a good looking mech!

Whitworth love! ~pirate

The Vulcan should be in the next bad mechs

Cool Video, but for new Players, it seems in this vid the shadowhawk ist an overall bad mech. It is not. The 2d Version is . The other ones like the very comon 2h for example arent. They are no mechs to get the kill, they are teamplayers. Great mechs to fill out every Lance. Scout leader, flanker, bodyguard for assaults, cavalry , you get the point. In RPG the quiet guy who helps everyone without looking for anything in return ist the perfekt jockey for this mech.

The Firebee flexes so hard. Being able to not get obliterated by a large laser is important and it's wild that people sleep on it. Shame it isn't 6/9/6. Archer is in a tougher spot, the damn thing gets really hot fast. I got the impression that the Crusader is mostly supposed to fire off/dump all of its ammo and then run in to start throwing hands - the SRM Archer can kind of do similar in a pinch. Shoutouts to the Partisan. Budget LRM bot but kind of helpless up close. The Mauler is over-costed imo, goes up like a volcanic eruption, but at least it doesn't die instantly to a TAC like the Crusader 3R. Question: What do you think about the Guillotines and Catapults?

8:08 no no no if youre getting shot in the back it is too late to be dumping ammo you do that youre asking to die , you dump that extra ammo turn 1 ........ i do so all the time in the Shen Yi as someone decided the centre torso would be a good place to store 2 of its 4 tons of MRM 20 ammo 😅

The Crusader isn't really looking to get into a brawl before it runs out of ammo for the LRMs.... The other thing with the crusader is that you aren't trying to fire with both legs... (my personal gripe with it is the mg version is dumb most of the variants get rid of that) The two mediums and an SRM6 plus the kick is nice damage. You're trying to stay back and run it then bring it forward to finish off the cripples.

Is that a Whitworth I see? The best damn support mech in its weight bracket. People sleep on that lil'beast.

I'm not sure if it was your intention but you make it sound that on torso (or arm) critical hits that go to the second section, a 4-6 roll, and there is only 1 item in that second section, it will be automatically hit. According to Battlemech Manual pg 46, you roll both dice again in the event of a slot being inapplicable.

👍🏻

Great video - given your justified criticisms of the Quickdraw on another video, can I ask what your opinion is on the Exterminator EXT-4D? I tend to mostly play Clan Invasion/Civil War and have had mixed success with the EXT-4D as a fairly cheap heavy skirmisher.

I enjoy all of The Many Voices videos 🎉😂

Archers are a classic

Arent bad mechs a product of house faction strengths in other designs? Plus how many bad mechs are fielded really? Good enough mechs or great mechs or meat grinder mechs is a numbers game of what we can still make or repair to cover our mech needs. Are bad mechs good enough after enemy fights tank lances, aerospace lances, defense turrets then breaches the wall to find infantry platoons supported with bad mechs fresh to the fight. Thank you Urbie defenders.

Will u do a similar video on alpha strike?

Do they know these mechs are bad in lore?. Just do a homebrew change and make it a buy one get one free deal lol

Not a great video; you didn't really go into why those "bad mechs" don't work in a force comp or why they aren't effective in their roles. The Cicada vs Locust was the closest you got to really explaining the issue, that being the Cicada being more expensive than it maybe should be.

7:45 do rear leg firing weapon arcs move when you torso twist? For that matter do foward firing leg arcs include front and torso side? Would packing the srm 6s onto the left and right torso pad the crit ammo issue. If all you got is ammo slots in the torso and you do get a crit is it auto explode? If you only have 4 arm crits and you do 5 arm crits does it transfer to torso and explode?

That's a LOT of primitive mechs.

The Crusader is a terrible mech and I'm tired of pretending it's not

I loathe Shadow Hawks so much.

I expected an image of the mechs. It is hard to read.

I think Ive realized something about your videos... You tend to frame the title in a negative tone. Idk, occurred to me viewing your video titles

I will not stand this shadow hawl hate