Re-bearing is the way to go, I just finished a milicron with big standard bearings and works very will. TIR with a tenths indicator doesn't move the needle. Too good a machine to just scrap. Always enjoy your videos, keep them coming .
I guess you have to compare the worth of the machine vs the cost of the repair keep in mind they don’t make machines like yours any more. I think your machine is worth repairing if you need it and will use it.
do not stick bearings in an ultrasonic cleaner, you will brinnel the bearings. Ask me how I know. 🙄. I would rebuild the bearing pack. I don't think you are far away from a good machine. Good luck finding them.
I would just get new bearings. An ultrasonic cleaning can damage bearings, since the vibration can cause brinelling on the races from the balls banging off them with high frequency (and force).
I agree that new bearings would be best, but Mark over at RotarySMP referred to some aerospace-approved ultrasonic treatment of ball bearings in a video not long ago. I'ts intriguing at least for a hobbyist to attempt refurbishment of bearings this way.
Use good quality replacement bearings and the spindle will be as accurate as you will ever need it to be. I do not see this a a deal breaker. Thanks for sharing,
Rebuild! The overall condition of the machine looks good (so far), and you can't beat the solid construction of those old machines. I know that spindle rebuilds can be tricky, but the assembly on this machine might make it a bit easier than you think; one side is fixed while the other is floating (with the split outer collar, one side has to be floating), so all you need to concern yourself with is getting the preload on the fixed side correct. It would be a great learning experience, and besides, the machine will not be operated continuously so you will have the opportunity to get the bearing assembly correctly tuned if you see it's acting up...
The first thing my Grandpa taught me on a mechanical repair, always replace any bearing or seal you remove, no exceptions, restore to factory specs with new parts and you and your customer can sleep well.
It is actually a little odd to me, I would have expected a 7305 bearing to keep the one side fixed, then the 2305 bearing floats to allow for thermal growth, but being a grinder it's seeing only light axial loads so a deep groove ball bearing was probably deemed adequate. you should look for a precision bearing like an abec7 or p4, a low grade bearing wont be stiff enough and you will see a lot of chatter. if you haven't watched robin renzeti's spindle video i highly advise watching it at least twice, lots of valuable information there. edit: c783 is actually listed as a p5 + zero clearance---so that gives it the preload
Called a "Newfoundland vernier" in Canada. Shouldn't be seen on a precision machine even if it's in tear down mode. Please use a decent wrench. As for the cup/square bolts. If they do the job what's wrong. You're obviously going to replace them with the correct ones eventually. Replace all the bearings. Make sleeves if you can't get the correct sizes but I'm sure you'll find them. Provide means of lubricating them after. Thanks for the videos. Regards from Canada's banana belt. ☃️🇨🇦👍
I would have thought Youchol that you would have bargained on replacing the spindle bearings as a matter of course in rebuilding the grinder. Unless you were sure that the spindle was in tip top condition I would expect to rebuild the spindle. Try Robin Renzetti for some advice, he's the spindle rebuild man after all lol
Ergodynamic.... Yuchol, The Woods Creek Linguist! I would replace both sets of bearings and continue to march, man! One small step for Yuchol, One Giant Leap for Mankind!!
I just went through the same thing with a DoAll Grinder, it's a 1969 model, they quit making surface grinders years ago but I managed to find a new matched set of bearings for the spindle, it was a pain to do but better than scrapping the machine. Working with tolerances of less than 1/10th runout can be a hair pulling experience but patience and persistence is the key.
Rebuild, new bearings and scrape the ways. These old machines are built much better than new ones. Fix it up and it will out last you. Bearings wear out. Look at GMN bearings for spindle bearings. Made in Germany.
if you want this thing to do good work, use the best bearings you can afford, the surface finish will tell.... I would probably send the cartridge to a spindle reman house and let them do it , if I was bucks up. best regards Steve
Measure the inner and outer diameters, Call your local bearing supplier and order 4 new bearings, shim if required, this is simple stuff. its not going to grind NASA parts anyway
i am armchair warrior, so take this with a pinch of coppersulfate, but..... matched self aligning ball bearing? you make that up or does the manual has April fools date printed on it somewhere ;-)? you could go with the equivalent ones, they cost almost nothing, if spindle speeds allows it, go tapered roller or high angular contact bearing, will help with the vibrations/oscillation in the speed range you are working with a grinder - again, check the specs, and be warned, i just discovered that the limit and rated speed on at least your "original" on the sfk page are mixed up. But it looks tho the deep grove ones are a bit harder to come by in the range needed here. At least my supplier does not hold 62mm OD in the 25er ID range. Better you figure out what speeds the machine gonna have, prior to the whole search, and my approach would be to test out first "normal" bearings, and not go full blow on matched sets. that way, i could iron out everything else and see how far i get before committing. With this 2 cents on the matter nobody is interested in anyways, thanks for your time and effort making the videos, it is appreciated in Spain.
If a one armed machinist in Brazil can fabricate a 4 jaw chuck in a tin roof shop running a home made mill and lathe setup, then what's your excuse when you have a shop full of machines to remake the spindle if you had to? Throw out all those icky bearings and buy a fresh set of Angular contact bearings. They are designed for spindles where precision and high speed are required. You can get bearings in all kinds of sizes and they're not as expensive as you would think. You can remove those tapered pins by drilling a hole through any of the ends and then knocking them out. Don't use heat because it expands the hole and the pin equally. Heat works for screws because the heating and cooling breaks the threads free. Also, check for peening. Sometimes the pins are peened from bon ends. A shallow drilling on each end removes them.
Yuchol from what i have read the only thing that separates just bearings from precision bearings is the inspection. They are all made on the same process and the grading process is extra measuring which closes the gap on tolerances of both I/D O/D and TIR. My guess is inspection processes and manufacturing processes have improved by 1000% . . Even precision spindle rebuilders are at the mercy of the Bearing Gods and run every spindle before shipping. I say go for it. The result in the sharpening of the tool will be the final arbiter.
@@woodscreekworkshop9939 1 arm one leg and any gold fillings you may have in your teeth. Since i am old and my teeth are falling out I think I would just get a tin cup and sit on the street corner with a cardboard sign.
Terry, Sorry but there is way more between standard bearings (Abec 1) and precision bearings (Abec 5 and up) than just inspection. In a former life in the bearing industry I worked for the local agent for Barden bearings. Barden only ever made Abec 7 and Abec 9 bearings (in the USA) They did this by precision production not by inspection of millions of Abec 1 bearings. It may well be possible to select for Abec 3 from Abec 1 but trying to select for Abec 5, 7, or the almost mythical Abec 9 from 1 and then to match two of them as a pair with a given preload would be a fairy tale…Martin
Sorry, but not even close to being true. Precision bearings are made on their own production line. The components may come from the standard bearing line, but the higher precision bearings are measured and then honed until they meet the precision class they are making. I worked for FAG Bearings and they only made what was ordered, so there was no sorting for tolerances, it was made to the tolerance ordered and then shipped to the customer. In the case of Barden Bearings as mentioned here, they only make ABEC 7 and 9. The ABEC 7 are measured at the production machines using air gages and run through the honing machines until they meet the required tolerances, or are scraped. For the ABEC 9 bearings, the components are taken into a temperature controlled room where they are honed until they meet ABEC 9 tolerances. There is a significant amount of labor involved in this tolerance class bearing and the prices are fully justified.
@@mikeb1520 I would like to see the evidence that supports this. Not saying you are wrong but i would like to see it. I am famliar with precision processes capable of maintaining 2 microns
Those are enormously expensive bearings I had a whole case of them a big case of them that no one knew what to do with it when we closed down one of our sister companies because my company was evil and we bought out companies downsized them made it look like we were making a lot of money because we fired everyone the stock went up like crazy and the owner and all of his family and friends made a fortune cashing in this happened during the 90s is the general rule it destroyed industries it destroyed people's lives but I guess I'm off track now so I had a whole case of those and I sold them on eBay for a hundreds of dollars apiece match bearings are ridiculously expensive I had timkin and these SKFS or whatever they are . i made a damn fortune off of them
I never liked that particular model of #2. I worked at GE in Charleston, SC and our shop at that time had a bunch of these but none this old. The belt drive spindles were too limiting to what we needed to grind on a daily basis so all our machines other than the Monosets had Pope wheel heads. Granted you can fix this and it will probably work but a motorized wheel head version would have made you a lot happier.
don't bother cleaning them. just check the spindle and replace all the bearings. It won't cost that much now. but you will regret it later if you don't do it
I've refurbished a number of Logan lathes my personal one I decided to just while I was using it strip it completely down to the metal and leave it and it's the coolest looking lathe they've ever seen! I mean it's like I didn't even work on it cause I just did a little bit every time I was out there using it I mean while it was running I didn't do it but while I was in the process of using it that day I would do a tiny bit and before long it was completely strip. All I have to do is wipe it with light oil I use spindle oil and just put a light thin coat of spindle oil on all the parts so they don't rust and it looks cool as hell
I have seen machines that were refurbished and that feature added to the waves during the scraping process for directing the oil to flow to a low spot so that is totally normal and they're never uniform they're always just sloppily done because it doesn't matter as long as there's a low spot for that oil to squeeze out in the direction that they wanted to but yeah I've seen this added this feature added intentionally
Put new bearing in it your to fair in now to stop. Not to mention grinders like that don't come up everyday. I think it so not to far gone of a machine
Yuchol I had my right finger on the left mouse button fixing to click on someone else's video and i saw Woods Creek Workshop. I slammed on the brakes jerked my hand off the mouse . Took a deep breath and thanked the You Tube Gods for stopping me just in time . So here I am. I am just another Woods Creek junkie. I love your videos.
Happy to see you back in the shop. You do great work, and the machine doesn't look that bad. Rebuild the spindle if it is not bent. You know that today's bearings are far better than what was available 70 years ago.
Not true, bearings are made to a tolerance. If ABEC 7 bearings were installed in this 70 years ago, then ABEC 7 bearings are required in this today. It is easier and cheaper to meet those tolerances today, but the bearings are still made to the same tolerances. The point that many people overlook is a standard tolerance bearing might meet ABEC 7 tolerances because it is easier to manufacture today, but if it meets standard tolerances, it ships, so you can’t assume standard bearings will meet higher tolerances.
Yuchol, I doubt it is the direction you will choose and it would not be terribly convenient, but I live within an hour and a half of you and I live in a 1951 machine shop. Almost everything is from the '40s and '50s. I have a few dozen Japanese fish crates filled with NOS US made bearings of all different sizes. If that is of any use to you, you are welcome to whatever you can make use of gratis
Look for some bearings, you probably already are. The worst case scenario is you buy some good quality motor bearings set them up and see how it runs. I think you'd be surprised.
Hi Yuchol, in the UK at least a coach screw is a large say 1/4” and above wood screw with a coarse helix and square head that is driven with a spanner (wrench) They have incredible holding power. Enjoying the serries, don’t forget Robin Renzetti’s precision spindle rebuild video.
Well, in for a penny, in for a pound lol. You could try to drill and tap those tapered pins and use a slide hammer to remove them. I generally steer clear of those super flammable solvents. Varsol works really well for removing large quantities of gunk, and it's relatively cheap 😊. Well, hope you can find some bearings for it, I'd hate to see all that iron in the scrap bin. Good luck! 👍😁👍 Cheers!
You can fix that spindle Yuchol. I have found that instead of viewing it as one big task, you break it down into smaller tasks. This helps to prevent it from being overwhelming. The smaller tasks can be addressed one at a time. Don’t discount your talent. As always, your videos are very entertaining.
I would still fix it, even if it needs more work than you had anticipated. These machines are hard to get a hold of it seems. Btw - do you know if the light-colored El Bow Grease is a controlled product in the US? I can't seem to find a Canadian supplier of it, but you guys in the States have access to stuff that Environment Canada banned decades ago 😜
Cincinnati built some great machine tools here in OH back in the day....That's a great grinder to restore and your doing a likewise job on it Yuchol. 👍
I feel your pain good Sir! New bearings are the way to go, it is surprising how much new/old stock bearing suppliers hold. My similar aged Pratt and Whitney tool and cutter grinder is still on the to do list. Love your work! ❤️
The last place I worked at before retirement decided to downsize their tool room and send most of their tooling out to be made etc and one of the machines set to go was a Cincinnati T&C grinder same as this one.....offered to me for A$500.........who wants a machine as big as that, so I went for a Bridgeport instead.at 1/1/2 grand with a vice.......how can you refuse that. The grinder was used 8 hours a day.....I can't imagine how boring it must have been to stand for 8 hours a day and work a T&C grinder, my most usage would probably take one hour any day of the week......the acquisition of a Declkel covered that.
@@woodscreekworkshop9939 It does take a bit of working to get used to using it.........did it come with any equipment or attachments like the motorised work head or the pair of centres?..........I would highly recommend a Cuttermaster if you were seriously thinking of doing cutter grinding......that has an air bearing work head with 5C collets and if you can get CBN wheels (quite pricey) you won't get all that grinding grit in everything.
Not one for jumping on band wagons, but in this case - GET NEW BEARINGS! I wouldn't even consider using the old bearings, even if they seemed good. Not when you've got it apart. Looking forward to Pt 3.
What some people don't realise is the precision bearings can be very expensive, sometimes thousands of dollars, so you would not want to change them for the sake of it. Granted the bearings in this spindle cartridge are toast or well on the way to being toast, so I would be looking at sources such as ebay for new old stock in this case, but in general if the bearings on a machine tool being refurbished for a home workshop looked and felt good, and they were Abec 5 or 7 spec, then I would use them if possible. On this grinder it is no big deal to extract the cartridge for a change out if that becomes necessary.
You're close to the harbor Boat anchor No 1 and 2 is matched bearings Back in the forties For home use the bearings of the day I just put regular bearings back in it Nice machine I wouldn't mind find anyone like it Thanks for the video
So the first thing I'd do is check to see what shape that shaft is in. Id measure it from about every direction i could find. And if it comes back in good shape. Then id call my local guy here in Warren, Ohio at Applied Industrial Technologies (Jim). And id be ordering up a set of replacement bearings for the upper spindle. Now, Since I didn't watch part 1 yet. I'll assume you didn't spend big $$$ on this older machine?? As I wouldn't of either and taken my chances to clean her up and rebuild anything that needs it. And then have a good machine that still has some service life left in her. Because we are both doing this as a hobby and not trying to run a high production shop. Which these older machines are perfect for us hobby shop guys. Side note, I just bought a Wells Index 745. Thats went into service in February of 1968. And then sat idle from 1992 till I bought it in November or 2021. And the table drive gear box needed all new bearings. So I've been down this road recently. But only paying $600.00 for the mill and $100.00 to have a professional move it home for me on a roll back wrecker. I have a LOT of (💰) room for repairs. And before I got carried away, I'd also check to see what other bearing you might need while you are at it. This way its all shipped on one shipping charge (or the 40 minute drive in my case) Saving you even more $$ for the budget of the restore/rebuild. And if this shaft was out of spec. Id contact Adam in Florida at Abomb79 and see if he could do a spray weld job on the shaft and then turn it back to the OEM size for you. He does a fantastic job with his spray welding on shafts like this. And it makes great content for his channel. And he collaborates with other RU-vid channels as well.
If problem is limited to the bearings I would search online for a deal on a matched pair of precission bearings. If deal doesn't show, I would try with standars bearings. That would cost you a couple of hundreds and it will make the grinder usable again. Later, if you want to go full speed with precission bearings, it will still be cheaper than a new grinder.
Throw those used bearings out they have had it! In a former life working for the local agent for Barden Precision Bearings we used to supply people rebuilding these T&C grinders with two pairs of Barden 305HDL. These are precision pairs (Abec 7) and have a built-in universal light preload. The size is equalivant to 7305. They are of angular contact design and are usually mounted in back-to-back arrangements. We supplied these angular contact bearings in lieu of the deep groove 6305 type (same physical size) as the latter are difficult to obtain in the required precision grade as are the double row type. Both pairs have their inners clamped together on the shaft. One pair has its outers end clamped in the housing thus providing axial location. The outers of the pair at the other end are usually left free to float (axially) in the outer housing to provide relief for any thermal expansion of the spindle. Either removal or alteration of the spacer length is required (I can’t remember which😊) Spindle repair is not for the faint hearted - it’s not like fitting new bearings to the wheels of a car, it should be left to experts and done in a clean room. If attempting it yourself please when greasing the bearings do not overfill the bearing as this will lead to churning of the grease and heat build up which will char the grease and destroy the bearings. Only 1/3 fill the open space in the bearings at a maximum. I was lucky, my Australian copy of the #2 T&C had good bearings. Although the small internal quill that came as an extra had a bent shaft (Sob). Martin
The bearings don't seem to be that expensive. I was looking at non sealed SKF for around $10 and sealed Timken's for $18.76 each. These all appear to be deep groove. This would be a nice addition to your shop.
Whilst its split down its best to swap them out with a whole fresh set so that the spindle runs true. Everything needs maintenance and repairs, its not the end of the world or a scrap machine because the bearings have seen better days. Take ID and OD and search using those dimensions. Codes differ between manufacturers but their will be matching dimensions in todays precision bearings. Ive come cross many bearings that are hard to find but a search with the mesurements has always produced results.
If it were me I would get to the nearest good industrial bearing supply house and let them take a look at what you've got there and any info you have on the machine. I'm betting you can get bearings that are at least as good, if not better than what it came with 71 years ago! Precision hasn't gotten any sloppier in machine tooling over that time period. BTW- I enjoy your style. A little humor is a good thing!
I use a sanding mouse with 40 and 60 grit. Works great in removing old paint and smoothing chipped paint. I even smooth up the casting marks and parting lines if need be with a die grinder.
Dont put bearings into an ultrasonic cleaner if you dont want to ruin your bearings, the balls will develop small flat spots during the cleaning process and when you reinstall them and run them at high speed the balls will get destroyed, just put new bearings in, should not be too expensive.
Yuchol, have you watched Max Grant's lathe service series? He got very good results with off-the-shelf bearings. New bearings and keep going. Great project.
Hello Yuchol, I am enjoying your video. I found two new SKF C6305/C783G1 K3 bearings for $169.99 each on EBay. They also list many SKF 2305 double race bearings in the $40-$50 range. I look forward to seeing you spindle reassembly procedure.
Just a small tip that is probably far too late, but for taking off that first layer of grease / dirt/ don't want to think about it, I have been really impressed with a cleaning product called TSP. It's illegal in our state now, but they sell a TSP alternative which seems to work just as well. One warning, You will want to wear gloves, it melts your fingernails
Yuchol, ultrasonic cleaner doesn't work great on bearing...will damage it...too achieve a precision movement, need new bearings, its a lot of work to waste just by some reemplazable stuff...About the precision bearings, you must ask Robinzetti, as a Spindle specialist will be able to give you a good advise, even point you in the correct source of spares and rebuilt procedure..
Big job. Hopefully lots of fun despite the surprises. Definitely new precision bearings. That’s what money is for. “Once and Done!” Similar to you, I degrease wish Super Clean full strength over a few days, cleaning buildup softened gunk as I go along. Then I strip the paint with Dad’s paint remover before bringing it back with some grinding of the castings and as little Bondo as possible before painting. Not sure it’s better or faster, but just my way of feeding my OCD dragon. Keep up the good work.
