More Lithium Lies - Lithium Battery Companies are STILL Lying To You, Even When They Don't Need To 

I'm not going to argue with that. Just trying to keep these companies honest.

If you are saying FLA then yes, but AGM is a much better buy if you don’t need to deep discharge your batteries!

i had some problems with the round lifepo4 cells that have the power connections on each end. the negative side of the cell would come loose inside and when you shook the cell from side to side you could hear the inside going back and forth. i knew something was wrong with those cells when the voltage read went up to 8 volts. i'll never buy that kind of cell again , i'll only buy the cells that have both connections on the top.

@@dodgeguyz I started out with AGM 100 ah batteries. I was so disappointed with the voltage drop on even the smallest loads. Also because they could only be discharged 50% they had to be monitored constantly. With lithium I don't have to worry about what % they are. They are reliable and care free.

Led and lithium together is strong. Video here in RU-vid about it. Together they are stronger and u get more out of it

That would be a huge benefit and weird that it's not common place seeing the big hype on electric cars

That Says Alot.

I didn't maintain my LA batteries and they went dry. I'll never have LA batteries again.

That is a very interesting post, and the reason why I often head to the comments section *before* even watching the video. Fascinating

I used to share a house and a Dutch girl lived there. When she explained her science based job with a pet food manufacturer, she said "They would tell me what the marketing would say. My job was to find a way to make it seem true."

All battery chemistries have less amphour capacity at higher discharge rates than if discharged at say 1/10th C rate. Nothing is exact.

If you have to use batteries in an ongoing application, the cost of lead-acid batteries are actually higher, when you factor in the number of charge cycles before they wear out. Lead-acid batteries deliver power much less efficiently. They begin delivering less and less power from their first usage, and their performance drops off dramatically in a short period of time. Comparing Lead-acid to Lithium-Iron-Phospate batteries is a clear compromise in performance. And as stated, lead-acid batteries are actually more expensive in the long run. Lead-acid batteries would only make sense to me in a backup power application where they see little to no actual usage.

@@jp040759 your statement is incorrect.

@@royhenley2396 48V Trojan system is $1546 when I googled. Some lithium 48v batteries were $1000!

The weight difference though...

@@judgedredd8876 Since I wrote that reply 6 months ago I picked up two power queen 200 AH LifePO4 batteries at a deep discount of $550 each. I noticed the 100 AH dropped below $300 now too. The difference in weight was very noticeable. I expect these to last more than ten years as I don't let them fall below 70% to make them last longer. I guess time will tell.

@@philc.9280 best thing is to keep them at 70-80% ... never above 90 or below 10%.. for longer times... they should last the longest that way.. but using up a bit of power isnt bad also.. just dont keep them stored empty or at 100% full..

one seller i was dealing with increased his price for 18650 lifepo4 cells by over 400%.

@@paul.alarner6410 I was referring to the Power queen or Li Time 100 ah batteries that are hovering around $300 now. They used to be above 500.

Can lithium batteries be recycled like lead acid?

@@davidgardner1675 Absolutely.

Yes it greatly depends upon each persons case by case basis, and there are times when choosing a lead acid battery might be the smarter option. This is why it is important to give out more accurate info like this video does so that people are better informed and can choose more wisely what works for them.

I dont know much about RV usage but i know one once you several times discharge regular batteries or Gel like optima its become a pile of shit , you can't revive them anymore nor repair it. The warranty was 2 years i remember in the shop they told me it was discharged too many times- go away no warranty i bought a second optimum then again my van sucked the power while I was not using it and the sucker died for the second time. He is clearly wrong about discharging! It kills the battery instantly and any mechanic will tell you the same!

​@@sekainiheiwa3650 You might be thinking of the traditional lead-acid battery, primarily used to deliver a quick burst of power for starting the engine. The continuous energy supply to keep the car moving, however, is actually facilitated by the alternator. Deep cycle batteries, on the other hand, are specifically designed to handle deep discharge cycles. The video you're watching showcases flooded deep cycle batteries, which necessitate users to refill the electrolyte levels for maintenance. In contrast, sealed lead-acid batteries, also a type of deep cycle battery, require minimal upkeep and are spill-proof. In terms of construction, deep cycle batteries boast thicker lead plates compared to their traditional counterparts. This design allows them to provide sustained electricity over longer periods, although they deliver less instantaneous power compared to traditional batteries.

How do you determine the space between the bottom of electrodes and the bottom of the battery?

@@JohnH242 you ask the supplier.

In all these description manca la cosa piu importante. Anzi 2! What model of T. was it? Which DOD media? T. makes dozens of types of batteries. For example 3 years are perfectly in line with a second-tier Agm T. with an average DOD 50%. Perfectly. If instead they were flooded traction, were the charge parameters respected? Especially the 100% constancy and the absorption time? Were they periodically equalized at high voltage as prescribed? Were they checked with the density meter to know if equalization or more absorption time was needed? Subsequently You chose heavy traction tubular plate looks. These cells withstand high DODs like cheap lifepo4. they can last over 2000 cycles all at 80% DOD. I do not think there are poor brands of these cells, as they are a niche market aimed exclusively at professionals. While agm and monobloc gel and lifepo4 are aimed at hobbyists for the most part totally incapable, and there are many levels of quality .

You should tell people about brand T because they are ripping the public off with crap batteries.

@@olliemoose2020 Maybe he's full of crap, maybe he's lying?

Wouldn't say it was reliable in all climbers because they can freeze in some harsh climates. A frozen battery isn't the definition of reliable. Might be the definition of fucked and dangerous and that's about it.

If lead acid were outdated as many yuoutubers want you to believe, would the battery behems continue to produce them? The millionaire companies to use them for industrial traction or telecommunications? Lifepo4 are not superior at all...they are superior in many respects, but it always depends on the use. But only those who are really prepared in the battery technique understand this concept. Most users do not have the basis to understand the aspects and conditions where lead acid is superior. In addition, there are abyssal differences between the types of lead acid! An OPZV traction or stationary tubular plate battery or a planté battery, last 5 or 10 times a monobloc AGM. So saying lead acid doesn't mean anything. it's like saying lithium, there are many types of lithium with totally opposite characteristics. For example, lifepo4 is good in cyclic duration, but it is one of the worst lithium as a start-up capacity or discharge current. there are types of lithium that discharge at 10C..tried with a lifepo4 How many know that nickel-iron batteries have a life extremely longer than lifepo4? But until the youtubers command it, people ignore it. No one studies science anymore .. now we listen to show charlatans, as scientific authors.

A few newer lithium batteries have built-in heaters to solve the cold charging problem.

True. It’s the high temp and/or stored at 100% that I’m more concerned about. I kinda like leaving my camper plugged in and fully charged so it’s ready to go should I get the urge to spontaneously go for a trip, and it can hit 117 in the shade here. Lithium batteries wouldn’t want to be in a black box out on the A frame in the sun, for sure. That said, for a boat where extreme temps usually aren’t an issue, or for a residence or full-time RV that will always have climate control (furnace or AC), lithium would be a no-brainer. For an occasional use RV, though, either battery type is likely to degrade due to age before hitting max cycles, lead acid preference to be stored at 100% is an advantage, as is its cost, and temperature tolerance.

@@JeffinTD not to mention the cost of the equipment NEEDED TO PROPERLY CHARGE the lipo’s

@@yoyomawh4091 This is true. If I went lithium in my rig I could reprogram my solar controller, but I’d have to upgrade the 3 stage converter/charger in my panel. Some rigs now come with a power distribution panel charger that has a switch for lithium mode.

@@JeffinTD ………still no recycling that I know of

which desulfator

If you compare DOLAR FOR DOLLAR, LEAD IS 2x - 3x BETTER And when was the last time you found LITHIUM BATTERIES in a junk yard?

@@my_channel_44 pulsetech , I am a believer

@@fladave99 Depends on the junk yard.

Pulse Tech , $30 one left on there at least 3 weeks per battery

Great plan! The prices will surely continue to come down.

same using agm's while working on the road. using 100w solar & DC2DC charger. A single lithium battery would have cost the same as my whole setup. I have 200ah and its doing just fine for rv/van scenario

Nothing wrong with that at all. If maintained properly and you choose a quality model, they can last a long time and do really well.

Does the cabin get really cold ie below freezing? LA are ok if charged.. Lithium not so sure?

It does get below zero during the winter, the LA's are fully charged during those times. 7000 feet elevation as well :)

@@mySeaPrince_ buy the version with the heater plates on between the cells if you are in freezing temperatures. LiPo4 will suffer damage trying to charge a frozen battery.

So glad I read this comment 8 years and still going

Amen, brother!

NIckel Iron is still king of off grid power for homes. They are not advertised because they last too long.

@@chippyjohn1 i was under the impression that they are still pretty much on par with lead acid batteries but at a higher cost and higher maintaines interval, along with the electrolyte being expensive to replace after the 7ish years

@@rookm13 Nickel Iron batteries are less efficient, meaning they require more energy to charge and also self discharge more, but they last essentially forever. The electrolyte is alkaline which does not cause corrosion, and is very cheap to replace. They require more frequent filling of pure water but the electrolyte only needs replacing every decade. The electrolyte is also very cheap. Lead acid batteries slowly corrode. It is the nickel in the batteries that makes them expensive and the fact that you only buy them once. Lead acid batteries can last 20 years quite easily if they are used within reason, but most people do not.

​@@chippyjohn1i have nicd and lead. I will never get this lithium shit. But a have my ob charger. 😊

Yes, there are pros and cons for sure. I was not attempting to do a comparison video. But if you were comparing the two then voltage as the batteries discharge could be a problem. Either way, in fact. I have had more than one person tell me they choose lead acid precisely because of what you described because they can set a cutoff point precisely where they want it because of the fairly linear voltage drop of lead acid. Lithium holds voltage until the end and then drops off like a rock. So if you need to set a precise voltage point for 20% SoC... good luck.

@@LDSreliance Setting a precise cutoff point would be good for a strictly managed setup but why? Are there some devices that do not respond well to constant voltage over a longer period? Im just curious as to why it may be more desirable to have a voltage cutoff point that is presumably far earlier for one battery technology than the other?

I often wonder if my golf cart with lead acid batteries in my attached garages are leading to my health problems, too.

No mater what the efficiency ( how much you get back from what you put in charging will make lithium better for all but the car starting cold exposed normally charged by the motor type applications. Any controlled temp application where return efficiency is important is a no brainer for lithium.

Thanks for watching, Jeff!

You are welcome. Thanks for watching!

budget is certainly a big consideration. It is only one aspect though. If you want to evaluate budget over time (useable capacity, price per year, replacement interval etc.) then money may not be any more important than the other aspects and in some scenarios, price per year may be far less for lithium than for SLA. It definitely is for me. Its not all about the benjamins...

From the comments I see people didn't really get the point of this video. The point is, as far as I see, that you should not use the comparison table of a company selling Lithium batteries to find out which chemistry is better for your application and if it worth the money - because they tend to tweak it to sell their own battery whatever the truth is. Also, I don't think it makes sense to compare two batteries. One should compare the total system cost and behavior of a specific application with the two kinds of batteries and then decide. And all the superior qualities come with "just higher upfront cost" but exactly that puts it out of reach for a lot of applications for which you just don't spend that kind of money. For the price comparison: yes you can get lots of LiPo under 500, but then you will also not compare it to a Trojan but pick one from the middle range. Price diff will be similar. In these comments there are a bunch of cases where people went Lithium and were happy. There are also a lot of cases where people use Lead-acid for a fraction of the cost and it works out for them. One can't just say "which one is better" in general.

@Nathan Smith obviously you are also not a champion in getting the point

@Nathan Smith I sincerely have no idea what you are speaking about as I shared my experience having used both Lead/Acid and LiFeP04. Different chemistries have different applications and would depend on user needs/preference. Neither ought to be dismissed as irrelevant. For storage of solar systems lead/acid is hardly an option I can advise in this day and age.

@Nathan Smithnot sure if you read correctly I mentioned liFePo4 twice in my contribution but I do hope I am clear. That said, you are fully entitled to your opinion.

Time will tell. Thanks for sharing your experiences. The comments on this video are interesting. People take their own experiences and create absolutes out of them (not saying you are). If someone had a bad experience with lead acid and had to replace them in 2 years then they suck and lithium is always better. If someone had a great experience with their lithium batteries then clearly they are superior. It seems like this is a zero sum game that people want to play but that isn't the case. It is much more nuanced than that. Lead acid and lithium can both be good in various ways and various scenarios. I'm not sure why very few people can understand that.

The ideal for lead acid is keeping them between 75% and 95% charge. The ideal for Lithium is 30% to 80%.

Couldn't have said it better.

That is an interesting point on the AGM's. That definitely does come in handy in that use case. There are still more uses cases like this where lead acid can be better that people don't like to admit. Thanks for the support, Michael!

Agreed. I just bought new AGMs. perfect.

It's weird finding people who choose 'easy to read capacity based on voltage' over a 'voltage stability for safe, consistent, and overall better performance'. Everyone in the solar and battery community that I've talked to and seen in forums always chose a 30 $ or even a 100$ battery meter over a heavy voltage sagging, which in the end can't be relied on to read the capacity.

@@TheSiprianus Hahaha...when you say it like that, it just sounds silly ;-) No, I'm not choosing 'easy to read capacity based on voltage' over a 'voltage stability for safe, consistent, and overall better performance' for clients with respect to battery chemistry choice. Rather, if the battery criteria for a client ends ups being a lead-acid of some variety, the lead acid 'voltage vs capacity' curve has a characteristic that can be used to switch load thresholds on and off relatively easily. Or put another way, it's something that's there and can be used, if people want to, and if appropriate. LiFePO4 will show only about 0.2-0.3V range over 70-80% of capacity range, and while that's a good thing overall, it's way too tight for most devices using voltage thresholds to switch loads on or off. AGM will show about 1.2-1.4V for the same 70-80%, so that's quite generous. Yes, high current draw will create a voltage drop giving a false reading of the true state of battery capacity at that particular moment when using 'voltage vs capacity' curve thresholds. I don't use if for this. Most low-voltage cut-off devices have a bit of hysteresis built into them, helping alleviate that a little, but it's not a perfect solution. I'm really using these low-voltage cut-off devices to safeguard batteries from over discharge, not to determine how much capacity is left, but that is the de-facto relationship of this method. A cheap battery meter will not automatically disconnect non-critical loads that can be shed when needed, and battery meters that have this feature are not cheap (Victron BMV-712 for instance AUD350.00 versus Kemo Battery Guard AUD45.00). Many budget battery meters (watt-hour or power meters) will display capacity in Ah or Wh as charging and discharging occur, providing a real-time indication of capacity remaining, but few cheap ones have any ability to disconnect loads at at particular Ah or Wh threshold. If you know of an inexpensive unit that does this, I'd be interested. Some of these meters will have low- and high-voltage cut out, high current cut out, over temperature cut out, but no user configuration cut out for power used to a particular power level. A typical AGM installation for vehicle/camper might be a low-voltage disconnect with alarm for the system, set to 11.6-11.8V. All loads go through this device. Non-critical loads go through another low-voltage disconnect set for 12.2-12.3V and will reconnect around 13.0V. This effectively means they will not come back on again unless the batteries are being charged. I set the thresholds using a bench power supply to get them to where I'd like. During commission of the system a watt-hour meter used (unless there's one in the system already) to determine approximately what capacity is used at those thresholds, and make any adjustments if necessary (which is a tomorrow job, since I have to recharge the battery again overnight). Cheers, from Oz.

You are welcome. If you look at the DoD vs. Cycle Life graphs for most quality lead acid batteries, there isn't any obvious reason to stop discharging at 50%. You can see that in the Trojan graph in the video that it is fairly linear. I could see if there was some steep drop off after 50% but there isn't. This is just one of those "rules of thumb" that won't die that isn't really founded in reality.

A UPS isn't cycled deeply so often.

@@my_channel_44 a ups is rarely used. And if so it's even rarer to go for a long period of time.

Please tell us the how long an UPS installation keeps their AGM batteries before mandatory replacement. For insurance purposes it's 3 years afaik.

An unrelated question for you JoAnn, this week gone I had to purchase several UPS units for Lab equipment and was amazed at how few of the units on the market have pure sine wave output. Given that they are a devise designed and supplied to "allow a safe and orderly shut down of a computer and associated equipment in the event of a power supply problem". My understanding was that a computer should only ever be run on pure sine wave. Should the UPS power protection industry be regulated.

No, do not do it. These are extremely difficult to get to work with cars, which is why almost no one has done it yet. You risk destroying your alternator and possibly damaging your ECU and other sensitive electronics in the car because of the higher voltage that lithium batteries operate at and charge at. People are doing this successfully on bass boats but cars are much more complicated. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but until car manufacturers design alternators and other stuff around lithium it won't really be a good idea to switch.

Tesla makes their own 12V battery LFE starting battery. The other manufactures don't care about weight or longevity yet. A lead acid battery only last about two years in an EV as it gets many more cycles per year than a starting battery in an ICE vehicle. So it produces a service event for stealerships to keep people coming back for a repair every two years. After going through 3 lead acid batteries in my EV in six years, I put a LFE starting battery in my Merc B class EV and it is working much better. No more trips to the dealer with bad starting battery errors on the dashboard.

What's a "household" task?

@@randybobandy9828 -- Sorry. It's stuff to keep the car ready to go. For example, it powers the receiver that listens for the radio signal to unlock the door. It powers the light that comes on when you open the door. It's a variant of a large power plant whose generator isn't running. Such a plant will be pulling power off the grid to keep it ready to start the generator again. In this context it's a "term of art."

your supposed to have a charge regulator, that takes care of over charging & the rate of charge. you didnt mention any details of instalation,or electrical fittings,fuses. if it was fused, it wouldnt explode..eh.. did they get a payout, . cars,planes,pose a huge risk, but you drive & fly.. its allways human error. not the gun..

@@harrywalker5836 The toy hauler fifth wheel was purchased brand new from a mega So. Cal. RV "super store". The owner took the unit back the selling dealer to have the solar panels/charger/inverter/monitor/batteries etc. professionally installed by the dealer techs. Every thing is under warranty and litigation is currently ongoing. As far as I know, all equip. was high end "Victron" components (no expense spared).

Harry, the battery management system in the batteries is supposed to protect from those, too. Redundant protection is certainly a good idea but something like this should never happen if the BMS does its job.

@@LDSreliance if there out of balance, ect, all contributes, shouldnt have more than 4 together. the bms doesnt know what the other bat is doing. regardless, find the fault & dont do it again.. lithium is finiki. acid dont care.. fuses are cheap.

@@seymourscagnetti1413 how old was the tech 16.. obviously didnt tighten a bolt or wired wrong.bat blew from short or over charged. or wires cooked, wrong gauge. i dont know, im just a pleb. hope they get there truck back, with extra. for grief,losses.. not good when your house burns down, .basically..

I paid $349. each for 4 -105ah batteries. Then I paid $330 each for 4 - 105ah batteries. The last set of 4 were $313. each. Now they're back up to $379-$429 which is ridiculous after consistently dropping. I was hoping to buy 4 more when they dipped below $300. But it doesn't look like it's going to happen

@@fauxque5057 inflation happened

@@randybobandy9828 Bidone Batschit Crazy Happened...

@Happy Dayz biden dementia happened

I can neither confirm nor deny. And I can't fault anyone for buying a cheap Grade B battery. For most applications and financial scenarios they are great. But where I have a problem is manufacturers not telling you what you are buying OR outright deceiving people into thinking they are Grade A when they are not.

I agree with everything you said except the "fail on every comparison" part. Lithium is superior in most ways but not all.

Lithium is actually only really dramatically less expensive than LFA IF you keep the lithium batteries for as long as the life span predicts

@@LDSreliance Nope, sorry. Lithium *IS* better than lead in every single way. Don't confuse prevalence with performance. Lead acid was king for so long because power companies and petroleum companies both benefited greatly from the lack of advances in battery technology.

Lithium does not charge by some cheap device. You need something that can produce 25-50 amps to get those numbers. Using the proper wire sizes. That is an extra cost to get that benefit.. So don't say something without first including Context... And there in lays the rub.. To charge Lithium fast. You need to invest more money into the system. And no car alternator is going to give you that for free. As most car alternator are rated at 2500 RPM for there output rating.. Add in the fuel cost to do that if you so chose... Solar is an added cost. So this shit gets expensive....

@@WizzRacing fast or slow lead acid loose 15% of the energy you try and store.

True. That is the topic for another video. Some of these companies play some serious games with their crazy claims of cycle life. And the general public believes it. Frustrates me quite a bit... one because it is just dishonest and two because MillerTech rates theirs the right/honest way and they look inferior in comparison.

@@LDSreliance yeah that's the problem when your honest. Over the years liars are embellishers, then they are marketers. China has a brag and sell way or doing things, a mere possibility. And in the further reaches of... For example my mppt I built would be 15kw Because ohm's law says so. 150v X 104 amps. But it's not as it's 1500w because that's how Mosfets work. But it's not a lie per-say.

There are definitely shades of grey. I don't think that all marketing is a lie. But it is a lie when a company is smart enough to know that what they are spouting is heavily tilted in their favor and that they believe that their audience are ignorant and will believe everything at face value. If they are providing information knowing that it will paint their product in a very favorable light because people don't know the rest of the story...

In addition to the other issues mentioned, LiFePO4 also needs a more complicated BMS with a lot of SMD electronic components, good luck with complex electronics lasting 15-20 years to achieve that 5000 cycle life. If the BMS failed you likely ruin some of the cells in the battery and those lithium 100AH batteries are crazy pricey. I like AGM or deep cycle golf cart wet lead acid that have a core recycling program if you need a new one and all much cheaper replacements if something goes wrong.

@@practicalguy973 BMS tend to break at the MOSFET, they're on or off when they break and it can cause some or no damage. But you can swap out cells, and 100ah is going to cost around £80-100 each. It's if they are welded together it becomes an issue. The benefit of lfp is that there is no voltage sag like lead under load, so you're working at more of a constant which helps all round rather than having a massive current variant. Serviceable LA can last, but it's down to the plates, and in are cheap out, material saving world, LA can be less likely to last. But that is the same for most things. Four sets of lead acid is the same price as a single lfp setup cost wise. And if you get the same cycles, then the draw back is sag. But LFP cycles are to 80% capacity. So you get 80ah from 100ah. Lead of serviceable, with still retain the same power capacity. I've not seen a fully serviceable LA since the 1980's though. Clear case, screwed on top, lift out plates. I remember taking out plates using a iron to take them apart to clean them, pop them back in re solder them, distilled water in and put on charge. Wait for the bubbles. Renewed battery. I think maybe H&S put a end to these??

You don't state what voltage your battery bank is. By the amp/hrs and weight you stated, I am going to assume that your system is likely 375 amp/hr at 24v. So, for an example, you could buy two EG4 100amp/hr 24v batteries for $1500 each, giving you 400amp/hrs at 24 volts at a cost of $3000 and both batteries would have a combined weight of under 200lbs. So I don't understand where you are getting your figures from. Your quote of $14,000 could buy a whopping 1,800 amp/hrs worth of the EG4 server rack batteries, so I must be missing something,. because the numbers are way off. Also, is your system is a 12v system, you could buy an EG4 12v 400 amp/hr server rack battery for $1500, that ways about 90lbs. Both technologies are great and have their purpose, and advantages for various needs and applications, but one must be careful with numbers when making comparisons.

​@@johndiezel5781 🤔 your numbers are a little off? On the *two* 24V EG4 100Ah adding up to 400Ah? ..... Regardless... Please explain to me why I would want a 24v system instead of a 12V? I'm a noob here

I suppose if the lead acid manufacturer is telling you not to discharge beyond 50% then their cycle life chart looks much different and then you should take them for their word. But who says that isn't how they are to be used? The battery isn't damaged going to 0% SoC. Is its life shortened? Absolutely? Is it a more drastic difference than what lithium exhibits? Yes. But lithium batteries have their life shortened by going to 0% SoC, too. So we could have done the analysis at 50% DoD and gotten the same conclusions.

Allowing a LA battery to remain discharged for a week is the most damaging action. In LA operations manuals they specify the state of charge level which must be maintained for battery storage. A trickle charger is the trick so keep your occasional usage batteries healthy. Consider this... if you run a good starter battery fully down, then jump it and carry on, I think you'll have trouble measuring much effect on battery condition.

Also some of the cheap batteries dealers put in might only be rated around 67 amp hours.

lithium has to be kept warm for charging from what I understand. Some BMS and charging systems take temperature into account and limit charging significantly if its cold.

Lithium battery exaggeration goes hand in hand with EV range exaggeration, which ultimately comes back to the lies told by the lithium battery manufacturers. I have yet to see a lithium battery lives up to the promises they make.

They don't. These batteries don't use Cobalt for their construction, which is the part that makes them dangerous. LiFePO4 - Lithium Iron Phosphate. The downside is that they have less capacity at the same volume and have a lower current delivery capability.

Really? That is supposed to be a premium brand. They certainly charge a pretty penny.

Mines lasted a year

I've had 3 of their led lamps fail at around 1-2 years, the newer ones did not last 18 months, same fault in all & its the control circuit turning the light on continuously even when the switch is in the Off position - the battery is fine. Their attitude also stinks & is the opposite of 'green' - if its out of warranty toss the old lamp & buy a new one for $$$, no repair parts.

"Green" is just a selling point because it is a popular, hot button issue. Many of those Goal Zeros, Jackery's, and Bluettis have NMC or Lion battery packs that are only rated for 500 cycles. So after a short period of time you have a very expensive paperweight that is highly toxic to the environment and required an enormous amount of energy and pollution to produce in the first place. Now, don't get me wrong, I love me some portable power stations. But lets not pretend that they are green.

@@LDSreliance The Jackery‘s and goal zeros are the worst for cycling, not to mention the heavy weight of the goal zero. The newer Bluetti’s have longer cycles. I believe in 2 to 3000 range.

You are correct and learned the hard way. Lithium batteries were never meant to be used in gas engines where cold cranking amps are required. Even in a sporting boat one uses a AMG style (or standard lead acid) to turn over the motor and perhaps a lithium battery to operate a electric trolling motor. Of course charging systems should be adequately addressed in mixed cell application.

@@williamparker8318 Yes I did, and over all the lithium batteries pretty much have cost me almost double that of a single AGM battery would have cost and to top it off I still gotta buy a new battery which will mean after going lithium over all ended up costing me almost double on the lithium plus what I should have bought in the first place so almost 3 times the price of one battery in total. For that money I could have got the top of the range AGM battery for that bike which would have only been just under double that of the original battery. Well you live and learn right. When I got the first lithium battery everyone was raving about them, and it seemed to work until it just gave up just like that, done.

your not supposed to use lith or agm, as start batts.. have you looked in to capacitors, as a start batt..6 will give 13/14v. cheap,light.

@@harrywalker5836 No, but I will just go back to the original battery, 11 years was a good life span for a battery on a motorcycle. Which is what I should have done in the first place, but you live and learn right. I believe the original battery was an AGM battery, normal batteries would probably not do so well. Capacitors just run down way too fast, but who knows in time they may replace batteries altogether, I know some people are working on that.

@@flitsies caps are a good start batt. they charge instant. a guy left his caped car at an airport for 2 wks. started right up. watch some vids. . yes, a batt is more reliable. i have 6 caps, waiting to test them in my truck. some guys use a small lith batt as back up charge. i can fit them anywhere, which means i have 2 spaces for agm,s. old batts were good, i had one for 6 yrs,over.. flattened it 5 times. yrs later, i bought a century batt. lasted exactly the warrenty period, took it back, i said what now,,he said,,see you in 12 months..never bought another.. quality these days is a pigment of your imagination.. just had a light globe blow,,just before sunset,,just when shops shut.. go figure..

But the video wasn't mean to be a like for like comparison. It is a deconstruction of a company's dishonest marketing message. And you are correct on the Trojan warranty. I did not see that in the fine print of the warranty language before I produced the video. But that doesn't change the fact that they are grossly misrepresenting the 10 year costs in their marketing info. If you had to replace the Trojan every 2 years (750 cycles @ 100% DoD) then you would still be at $1250 at normal market prices or ~$2100 with the prices at the time of the video since that model was no longer being made and the prices were skyrocketing of the remaining supply. Still a far cry from $3600 however you slice it.

Awesome

This is one sentence. Not even a period on the end.

Good to hear! They are awesome batteries, for sure.

Oh yes, used the Trojan batteries in industrial sissors lifts, great life. Other lead acid with antimony also had extreem durability. Tried cheap imported lead acid batteries, very poor service life, avoid......

I agree!

Ah NO, not even close. Golf carts and RVs need a deep cycling battery not a car/truck starting battery. CCA mean ZIP for this purpose; 800 CCA would be great for starting up your diesel truck. Totally different animal.

@@Roarmeister2 exactly that Walmart battery is a dual purpose battery, calling it a deep cycle battery is stretching the truth.

I can't argue with you there. Good luck with your system!

Go Lithium. Weight is indeed a factor and the price of Lithium is coming down every day. Lead Acid CANNOT be safely discharged to 0% that is nonsense. Anything less that 25% on a regular basis and they wont last 2-3 years and you WONT get warranty because when they test it they can tell its been ' ABUSED ' and not used within the suggested parameters. Dont be fooled by THIS video either !!!

Put the battery in a box with at least aluminum foil thickness of metal it will survive. The balance leads are the sensitive ones not the power side and most of the device looks pretty shielded.

Lithium also does not like hot days. Or cold days.

I agree with all of that. Good comment!

You are welcome. Thanks for watching!

Great comments! Agree with all you said. Thanks for sharing.

Yes they are. DoD is measured from the low voltage cutoff of the BMS, not to 0V.

That is a good point. Which is head scratching why this company listed it as an advantage.

True but the point of the video was to debunk the marketing graphic, not to make an exhaustive comparison of lithium vs lead acid. I've done that in other videos.

There are still more applications than you think that are dominated by lead acid. Auto starting batteries, forklift batteries, telecom batteries, boating, uninterruptible power supplies, etc. Again... I'm not an advocate for either one, necessarily. I prefer lithium myself. But there are still valid applications for them. And, in addition to the cold applications you referred to, there are still other pluses in some circumstances such as surge current, cost per cycle, and reliability.

@@LDSreliance I don't think cost will be in favor of lead acid anymore. The price to make lead acid batteries are going up, and shipping costs are also a big factor.

@@LDSreliance AGM or VRLA batteries do dominate each of those uses. But once discovered, everyone will change to Sodium-ion for forklift, telecom, and UPS. No EPA reporting or disposal tracking, All minerals are commonly produced commodity products on every continent, No expulsion of anything, No way for it to start a fire, does not heat during charge or discharge, even at double voltage, even at dead short circuit. I cut a pouch in half then tested its capacity to find it was still a valid cell but only half capacity. Telecom and data center UPS backup times are down to between 24 and 120 seconds, because there's a generator. Forklifts can recharge so rapidly, without battery degradation, salesmen are just writing orders. It's not good for cars, or these overnight solar applications. Economically it works best for short duration and/or quick recharge needs. But for the majority of your list, they'll probably not go to Lithium if they know about these.

I only mentioned the points that the company made in their marketing comparison. There are quite a few other factors that play into it, though, like operating temperatures and charging temperatures.

Can't say I blame you. Even though they do the exact same job, they are so different in their strengths and weaknesses that it is hard to compare them directly to each other. But people do it anyway (just read the comments).

@@LDSreliance It was the right choice at the time. But as the price of lithium batteries has come down, I may choose to go that route in the future.

Just be careful you and know the difference between Grade A and Grade B before you buy.

IF you compare DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR LEAD is 2x - 3x better

@@fladave99 A dollar for dollar comparison of what? Amp hours on the label maybe. Amp hours usable for advertised cycle count then about the same. When you take into account the difference in cycle numbers lithium wins hand over fist, add to that the 16% greater cycle efficiency, so you need to generate less, and lead is left in the gutter, may as well add in the greater charge acceptance rate while we’re at it so reducing time that charge needs to be available for so saving 50%+ in fuel if a generator is used, and making much better use of solar capacity as you don’t have the situation where useful power is being wasted because the lead lumps can’t soak it up fast enough.

​@@philbrooke-little7082 I dont see the advantage, they are bad for the enviornment, mined by children in open pit mines, way too expensive, money goes to the red chinese commies and drug dealers in Afganistan, , they can be destroyed by improper charging or temps, I can buy 2 times the power for the same price and weight is not an issue because I am fixed. Basically $1 per amp hour on heavy duty golf cart lead. I have 8 6v golf carts for 8 years and they run perfect are holding 12.8volts. If I am buying 2 times the power a 30% advantage does not matter. What are you gonna do when the grid REALLY goes down and we are in "THE ROAD" You will be using the lead acid batteries I threw out cause you aint gonna buy lithium when the SHTF and the grid is out for a few years.. You drive Tesla, I drive Toyota. We will both get to the same place

@@fladave99 I’ve been living off grid with lead acid for over 40 years and I can confirm that the two biggest improvements in my life have been solar and lithium. LiFePO4 do not use nickel or cobalt and it is cobalt where the questions arise as to mining conditions. I run a group dedicated to boating related 12v and many are making the change and the universal opinion from those that have converted is what an improvement they are over lead. I’m not personally a Sinophobia but as time goes on more and more batteries will be made from locally recycled material, reprocessing plants are already being built and in operation. The grid goes out often but I have never noticed it with either lead or lithium, at least if battery supply dries up I will have enough for a long time because of the great cycle life of lithium. I leave lead for what it has always been best at which is starting infernal combustion engines.

@@philbrooke-little7082 I did not know you can hybrid those. Do you separate the charging systems? Are they tied together into running the output or are they separate. I have to admit I am invested in wet cell but if I ever hit the road I might consider lithium.

Agreed. I think lithium is the right answer for most situations, but not all. And if you check the fine print on those spec sheets (if the manufacturer discloses the info at all), you will usually see that they rate their claims of 4,000-7,000 cycles or whatever at 0.2C. So, sure, if you baby that lithium battery and never make it work very hard it might last a million years. But these people are buying these batteries for their boats and RVs and golf carts. They get put to a lot more of a load than 0.2C and then you will end up, like you said, with a lot of upset customers in 6-8 years when these batteries start failing or having obvious capacity loss because these people were mislead.

They aren't going to be affected by long periods of inactivity like lead acid. Most lithium deep cycle batteries only discharge 1-5% per month when not in use. But they can be abused in other ways that do not bother lead acid, such as leaving them on a "trickle charger" for long periods of time or charging them below freezing temperatures. So it is important to know what kind of tool you are buying and the pros and cons before you buy.

You won't find one. All you will find is opinions. There are too many variables and too much of "value" is tied into consumer preferences. Some might find value in a 20 year investment with high upfront cost but a strong 10% return on investment, similar to the stock market. Others may find value in lower up front investment, less "fuss" (like rewiring a boat or RV), and less risk. But if you are strictly speaking of value in terms of dollars and cents, it remains to be seen how long these lithium batteries will really hold up. Grade A cells are rated for 3,000+ cycles, but will the BMS last that long? Will the internal wiring and connections last that long? There isn't a single lithium battery company that has been in business for more than 12-13 years, that I am aware of, so it isn't possible to know for sure. MTBF ratings and lab testing can only take us so far. All I can do is help to fact check the marketers and leave it up to you to decide. If you are looking for someone to tell you how you spend your money, there are plenty of other RU-vidrs for that.

Yes, for sure. And even though Lithium doesn't suffer as much from a similar effect, you still have to look carefully at the specs and engineering info of the battery to make sure they aren't playing games to inflate the numbers (like using 0.2C as the discharge current for capacity and cycle life testing).

@@LDSreliance when it comes to round trip efficiency I couldn't use lead acid. Too much losses meant I would have needed much more capacity and more solar panels. Honestly that would be a great line item to compare. I know you can discharge lead acid down 100% but any time I have ever done that it was significant damage to the battery. I have recovered lithium ion cells that were under 1v each and got almost the same capacity. When it happens to lead acid I usually lose upwards of 20-30% capacity. I would rather agree with the 50% discharge statement. Another thing to note is that you are using specs from the manufacturer of the lead acid batteries which I wouldn't trust one bit. They tend to over exaggerate the capabilities and how well it stands up to situations like over discharge, low temp performance, etc

I think it has to do with the quality of the lead acid battery. Just like automobiles or blenders or anything else, they are not all built the same way. Thus, a 2V forklift battery or a 6V golf cart battery are very different than a $99 "deep cycle" 12V battery from Wal-Mart. No doubt the Wal-Mart battery will suffer permanent damage discharging it to 0% SoC. But industrial lead acid batteries are built like tanks and designed to take daily abuse. I don't say that to advocate for lead acid batteries. Just that we can't paint with a broad brush and neither can these marketing departments at these companies. For example, wherever this 50% "rule" came from, it may have had some validity in some sub-segment of the lead acid battery market at one point but it has become the gospel that gets parroted everywhere that lead acid batteries and lithium batteries are discussed.

I agree. Thanks for watching!

Good points. However, I wasn't trying to do a full comparison between the two. I was using a comparison someone else did. But you are right about the EMP vulnerability.