Thanks, Variablog. Excellent questions. Good fodder to chew on. As an aside - it's too bad that the religious among us never pose such thought provoking questions. Questions like - "should we intervene in africa, and if so, by how much" are huge questions that don't have short, easy answers. I don't have a great answer for you, but I'm thinking that it's a matter of scale. We can't save the world, but we can do our part. If you can intervene directly, you probably should.
Great analogies you used there. Again you effectively highlight some important points. Points that theologians dance around with long and windy answers that don't really hold water when you examine them closely. Funnily enough I intend making a serious (for once) video at some point discussing one of the big holes in their answers that I think they may have overlooked. I'm sure they will have a long and windy answer to that too..lol. The more we can all make them scratch there noodles the better
Great analogy. However, I would point out that I feel Moore in Watchmen is raising deeper issues about the nature of 'God' or, more accurately 'a godlike being' in the book. Dr Manhattan becomes aloof to human affairs by virtue of his power throughout the story, but in the end comes to save earth through belief in miracles (definition of miracle a moot point). To my mind you make a good point about literal biblical interpretation of 'God', but as to the existence of gods - this goes deeper.
I think what this boils down to is. the Idea of god and his "thought" process is beyond the comprehension of the human mind. so arguing for or against makes little sense since neither side can prove or disprove his existence or his purpose. arguing that god exists makes no sense since everyone goes for the obvious counter that he does nothing to prevent evil. but at the same time why would god create life give it free will to do w/e it wants and than intervene every time something goes wrong.
@cmpresents "Just because I don't want someone killing me makes me a good person, what are you saying, you make absolutley no sense." Really? The concept of "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" is incomprehensible to you? You don't understand how people will treat you badly if you treat them badly? And it's not because of some god proclamation (the golden rule actually appears much earlier in babylonian texts).
That is an interesting response. First, I'm not "spewing" anything, I'm asking questions. Second, what insult did I lay on you? Third, how do you think your beliefs (or lack of) differ from mine? You seemed to object when I called you a christian ealier (that was just an assumption on my part, sorry). So what ARE your beliefs, and how do you know we differ?
@cmpresents What kind of an answer are you looking for, that you would consider to be "scientific"? You said I can't explain morals with science. That is a stupid statement, because it's a very simple concept. People will treat you the way you treat them. Punch someone, and they will punch you back. Science is about observing the world around us. I observed, as you do, that punching someone will get you punched. This is perfectly scientific, and explains the basis of real morals.
No, I said "would you beat a child". That was a question. Your answer should be "of course not". You should read my comments before flying off the handle. The pain thing was related to you saying that the pain people suffer for disease was nothing. If you have to struggle to get over it, or be "strong enough mentally" to get over it, then OBVIOUSLY it's not nothing. Maybe you CAN get over it. Not everyone else can, and it's pretty inhuman for you to claim so.
Why doesn't god eliminate all disease? I've asked this question before, and the answer was some mumbling gibberish about 'free will'. WE are working to eliminate disease (already dealt with polio, malaria, smallpox, maybe others). Are we eliminating free will? No. So if God loves us, and is all powerful, why not help us out and eliminate disease? If he has the power and chooses not to act, he is evil. End of story.
@cmpresents So, how would you know if you had no free will? Just that you had no more desires? And where do these desires come from? The certainly don't come from your "heart", your heart pumps blood, that's it. Don't use poetic nonsense in this discussion please. Your desires come from your brain, just like everything else in your personality. A brainwashed person has desires too. A hypnotized person has desires too. Do they have free will? If not, how would they know?
I agree - It just seemed to me that Dr. Manhattan's non-intervention was an apt reflection of today's God's non-intervention (I say "today's" because the bible god intervened all the time).
And this is a good point too - as a person of power and responsibility over the child, the adult has an obligation to teach the child and to provide a safe environment in which to grow up. God isn't doing this. He is a very poor parent.
@cmpresents What makes you think we have free will? Can you even define it so that we would recognize when we don't have it? Freedom of action is easy to demonstrate - if you put someone in handcuffs, and they want to spread their hands apart, and try, they will fail. What would the mental version of handcuffs be for free will? I bet you can't come up with anything, because the whole concept of "free will" is nonsensical.
@cmpresents When you say "the heart" you still mean the brain, I hope. But you still haven't even tried to answer the actual important question I was asking, so forget everything else and answer this: If you DIDN'T have free will, if God or someone else interfered with your thoughts (like when God hardened Pharaoh's heart), HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?
@cmpresents "Not even the most eminent biologiest, let me see, Richard Dawkins, hasn't a clue as to what thoughts are." I've read an awful lot of Dawkin's work, and I don't recall him ever actually even talking about the subject. What book or article are you talking about? But Dawkin's speciality is not neuroscience, it's DNA and genetics. Quote a neuroscientist pls, if you think they have no idea.
@cmpresents "God can't be held accountable for anything, he's the creator of the game." You have it exactly backwards. If God exists and created everything, then he his accountable for EVERYTHING, not nothing. I'm a programmer. If I make a virtual world, and populate it with virtual creatures, and give these creatures the capacity to suffer, and let them kill each other, I am responsible for 100% of what goes on in there. If God exists, so is he.
@cmpresents "please don't use poetic/scientific nonsense, tell me exactly where they come from. " Your desires are thoughts. Thoughts are a manifestation of the brain's operation. If you don't understand this, I suggest you go learn some biology.
How am I being uncivil? I haven't called you any names, I've just asked you questions. You said that "pain is nothing". You implied that all the suffering around the world from disease was nothing. If it's nothing, then you are implying that beating the shit out of anyone wouldn't be a problem. If it IS a problem, then you admit that pain IS something. So which is it? Is pain something, or nothing?
Um - that makes no sense at all. Without fatal diseases, we would have died thousands of years ago? The only reason we have as many people today as we do is because of modern mechanized farming. There are always as many people as can be supported by food. The rest die off from starvation.
Also - your reasoning here doesn't make sense. The only reason that sex is potentially harmful is the disease itself. If the STDs were eliminated, or our bodies were magically adjusted so that we were forever impervious to disease, then obviously disease wouldn't be a harmful effect. Why SHOULD some things be harmful? Smoking causes cancer. But god could make it so that it doesn't. Why should anything cause cancer? Why doesn't God eliminate cancer?
assuming I would beat my child isn't insulting or uncivil? do you really think that? I feel sorry for you. Pain is nothing, and anyone if they are strong enough mentally can get over it. I never said beating the shit out of someone was nothing. I personally can get over pain, I don't let it effect me. that doesn't mean I assume everyone is the same way as me. once again you are putting words in my mouth. and like I said before. I'm done
@cmpresents "God wants us to understand love, not technical stupidity." There is a lot of "wrong" you've packed into those 9 words. God wants you to understand love? Like the slaughter of the midianites? Or the guy killed because he worked on the sabbbath? Or the rule about killing non-virgin brides? Or disobedient children? That is love to you? And what do you mean by "technical stupidity" - modern science? Would you prefer to go back to the stone age?
You're probably right, Alpha, but it's a failed argument, because that implies that God never intervenes, yet he does all the time. If Christians were to say that we have to have free action so that we can choose the evil path, then God would have to leave us alone when we do evil. But there are tons of cases in the bible where God goes on a killing rampage for what people are doing. He kills the entire town of sodom and gomorrah just for being gay.
And how is disease humanity's mess? Don't give me bullshit about "the fall" - we know that biologically disease is either bacteria or virus, which have very real origins, which have nothing to do with "sin". Wasn't Jesus supposed to be the shepherd? Didn't he cure disease while he was here? Why only cure the one or two people he happened to bump into? Why not cure EVERYONE FOREVER of disease? And animals suffer disease too you know. Why?
I've already found the flaw in your logic. Suicide and Murder are playing as god. humans aren't supposed to kill themselves or others. so why would you get into heaven by doing so? the whole point is you live your life as a test. and your calling me a christian. I never said I was a christian. I'm using common sense and logic to debate this. as for the pain and suffering. yea I guess you have a point. but pain isn't enough reason to call something evil, pain is nothing.
this is the problem with Atheists, you think god needs to be your babysitter. hes not here to clean up humanities mess. if he was, there would be absolutely no point in life. the point of life in according to Christians is to follow gods way and make it into heaven. and the problem is you have the idea that god letting someone die from disease is evil. explain how death is evil. if heaven is this wonderful place that everyone says it is than death is actually the opposite of evil.
Didn't you say: "and the problem is you have the idea that god letting someone die from disease is evil. explain how death is evil. if heaven is this wonderful place that everyone says it is than death is actually the opposite of evil." I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm just pointing out what you've already said, and extrapolating. And yes, pain can be overcome. So? Would you beat the shit out of a child and say "walk it off, pussy"?
If it was just free will, Christians would have to explain why God seems arbitrary in when he intervenes when people are being bad. There are many cases where he intervenes to punish people doing evil, but also many cases where he doesn't. Very inconsistent. Sloppy work, if you ask me.
So are we breaking "free will" when we DO help others? When we cure diseases, when we send aid to the poor? Come on, that's a weak and ridiculous argument. If there was a god, who had unlimited power, love and knowledge, he could wipe out ALL disease with a magical wave of his hand. Instead, we will muddle through on our one, one disease at a time. If your god exists, he is an evil bastard. Weak too, since we're apparently overriding his "designed" diseases.
@cmpresents Well, if you are going to continue to refuse to actually use your brain, and think about what I'm saying then no, I won't be able to make myself understood to you. Are you looking for a scientific reason why having your stuff stolen from you bothers you, or someone assaulting you bothers you? Are you truly that stupid? Are you just arguing to read your words on the screen? Please demonstrate at least a basic understanding of..well..anything really.
It's the pain and suffering they experience, in addition to the death, that makes it evil. If it was so great to die and go to heaven, why don't you christians murder all your babies and yourselves, and go straight to heaven? Why are you guys against abortion clinics, since that would just be sending more "babies" to heaven without the risk of them becoming fallen?
Ok, you've had a number of diseases and were born with a genetic defect. Do you believe this is part of God's plan, or do you think that it's just a physical thing, an accident of poor genetic duplication? Does it comfort you to think that god wants you to be diseased, or to have heart problems? If god wants that, then do you believe medical science should leave your body alone?
@cmpresents So a lot of books would be needed. So what? We have those books now - but it took us a long time to develop the knowledge ourselves. God could have saved everyone a lot of misery pain and death by telling us real things, rather than "avoid shellfish and women on their period". And morals are easily explained by science. Do you want someone killing you or stealing your stuff? No? Then don't do it to others, asshole. See how simple that is?
