Force of Will would actually make a good addition on the 10th spot. Objectively, it's a pretty terrible card, which is why people weren't playing it a lot when it came out. However, it's the only one that lets you counter something for free pretty much every time. So it is a card with a narrow usage, it just so happens that this narrow usage is "the format is broken and you need a reliable counter available every time".
I feel like his biggest issue with Hisoka is that his ability goes against the general idea of counterspells.... if I spend two or three mana to counter something costing four or more, it's value for me because I cheaply remove a threat from the game. But if I have to discard my own six-mana spell to counter opponent? It's an equal trade, at best. And this guy already cost four, so until turn 5 you'll not be even able to use him. Actually, scratch that - it's a Blue card, and blue is usually more about abilities on cards rather than straight-up power. Trading six mana Green creature with just a huge body might be.... kinda worthwhile?... at least? But for Blue, it's like whacking your opponent with priceless work of art. Seriously, how this card slipped through design phase?
Nix counters Pitches, Suspends, Rebounds, Cascades, Imprints, Ciphers, Ripples, Legates/Nemesis free spells, and of course Marvel as previously stated in the video.. So yea, Nix isn't terrible, it actually counters A LOT for only a single blue. I means there are literally hundreds of spells it can counter.
atlys but, I do actually agree, it’s quite good, partly for the same reason mana tithe is good, no one expects it. Because how casts a counterspell with one white mana?! And wait, what do you mean my suspended emrakul/expropriate doesn’t resolve?! (Actually does emrakul have can’t be countered? Anyway, point stands.)
Since it was printed in Future Sight, where the running motive was "printing somewhat weird cards that we may see in future sets" perhaps this will be released in a set with focus on reducing mana cost or something
I really wish Nix were a playable modern card. I can see it being good against Living End and spells with Phyrexian mana costs like Surgical Extraction. It could also stop suspended cards like Restore Balance and Greater Gargadon. Then there's traps and pacts and other sometimes relevant cards. The thing is there would have to be a lot of that kind of stuff in my local meta to make such a narrow card worth playing. On the other hand, Spell Pierce and Dispel are both also 1-mana counterspells that can deal with the same things just as effectively but also just cover so much more territory that I can't justify running Nix over either of those. For one mana more, there's Mana Leak, Negate and Remand. As much as I would love to see Nix become a thing, I just can't see it happening.
Even in Alpha, there were tiers of counterspells: Counterspell (UU, Instant): Counter target spell Power Sink (XU, Instant): Counter target spell unless its controller pays X. If they do not pay, tap all mana-producing lands they control and empty their mana pool. Spell Blast (XU, Instant): Counter target spell with converted mana cost X. Blue Elemental Blast (U, Instant): Counter target red spell or destroy target red permanent. Red Elemental Blast (R, Instant): Counter target blue spell or destroy target blue permanent. Counterspell and Power Sink were crazy; the latter with enough mana was like ending the opponent's turn. Spell Blast wasn't great, but better than nothing. The Elemental Blast spells were narrow, but had the additional utility of being able to kill Shivan Dragons and Vesuvan Dopplegangers after the fact. Interestingly enough, there were two enchantments that had repeatable counters. Deathgrip (BB, Enchantment): BB: Counter target green spell Lifeforce (GG, Enchantment): GG: Counter target black spell
There are ways to punish card draw or draws beyond the first on a turn...so it is niche but could grant you some advantage...more than the others presented
What about Mindstatic from Dragon’s Maze? A cmc of four mana (3U) to counter a spell unless the opponent pays 6... It might not be the worst counterspell ever, but there are just so many strictly better cards. Also, I get annoyed when looking through my bulk and seeing a bunch of them.
It is definitely bad -- 4 mana and it isn't even a hard counter! I ended up taking it off the list because it is in about 200 decks on EDHRec -- though honestly yeah, it would be right at home on this list.
runeboggle did see some play back in it's day in Standard, it could really shut down the tempo of a deck and at least it got you something even if they could pay the 1. Certainly not the best card, but it's not one of the worst. The card taht should be in it's place is failed inspection and statute of denial, both cost 4 and both have you draw a card and discard a card which is strictly worse in most situations then Dismiss and Bone to Ash.
That happened only because Kamigawa and Ravnica blocks was basically when WotC decided Counter as part of Control was "unfun" for the game and made efforts to hose it by not reprinting counterspell ever again removing it from modern games, replacing it with cancel and basically hosing or overcosting a lot of counterspells during that block.
Hisoka wouldn't really be playable if his ability's only activation cost was the discarding of the card. If you can make an effect cost no mana and still have it be pretty bad, you know you've fucked up.
I don't really think that molten influence is bad considering alot of us run Dash Hopes. Really, it is just the instants and sorcery thing that makes it a bit annoying.
I have seen Nyx used in Vintage, but that was back in 2008 and 2009. Stopping Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Black Lotus and other spells you were allowed to play without paying their cost is good.
Dash Hopes can actually be decent in mono black, where you consider it 2 mana for 5 damage and the possible upside of the opponent being afraid of losing life and thus letting you counter something (seriously though, it should be viewed as a black burn spell). Molten influence though, it's just crap. It's limited in what it can target to counter and is stapled to a pair of Shocks... it's bad as a counter and it's horrible for red in terms of burn, even compared to Shock, which at least has the flexibility to kill off pesky creatures like Noble Hierarch...
I've harvested so much salt from Dash Hopes, it was in one of my first modern decks. That deck had many of the choice cards like Vexing Devil, Browbeat, and Temporal Extortion. To a lesser extent cards like blighting also were choice cards ;)
Dash Hopes is niche, but far better than Molten Influence. Mono black gets usage from this card in decks that have cheap beefy hitters. Losing 5 life would put the opponent in the red pretty quick and it has the benefit of being a hard counter when they are at 5 or less life because of rulings involving not being able to pay life that would kill you, if I remember correctly, that is.
I dont think neither of those cards are bad. Think about it you arent playing them as counterspells. They are burn spells. 2 mana for 4 or 5 damage seems nice. And it may end up being a counterspell instead but there is no bad option there. Either 2 mana counterspell or 2 mana for a lava axe? On dash hopes at least
Hmmmm Second Guess would be nice in an EDH deck with the New Jin-Gitaxias as Commander. Hes already countering the 1st one, so 2nd Attempt Is countered too. Will they even have mana for 3rd try?
Nix could potentially be good in some weird deck that used something like Knowledge Pool so that they didn't pay for the spell they cast or something. But I don't really see any way a deck would want the rest, so pretty good list.
The thing is that unless you have a way to recoup your advantage (Talrand, Rashmi, etc.), counter spells aren't great in EDH except for corner cases where something absolutely has to be stopped. Otherwise you're just going down a card while your 2+ other opponents thank yoy for stopping the threat and getting lower than them in CA. I don't know if just getting to see your opponent's hand is worth the extra 2 mana or makes this worth it to run over regular Counterspell or even Cancel.
I don't even understand what made them print Thoughtbind. Yes, I know it was in Kamigawa but come on, if we already have 2 mana and 3 mana counter spells with (x) cost, what made them make this? Did they also print some 3 or even 4 mana black instant that reads "Destroy target creature with converted mana cost 4 or less"? No, they didn't.
You say Minamo's Meddling, but Lay Bare is nearly strictly worse. For overpriced, we also have Contradict, Controvert, Countermand, and Traumatic Visions. Deny Existence is almost strictly worse than Exclude, Hornswoggle, or Dissipate; Flash Counter is literally worse than Dispel; Extinguish is worse than Envelop or Invasive Surgery; even if you're playing mono-blue wizards, Ixidor's Will is pretty trash. Instead of Laquatus's Disdain, you might as well play Remand - maybe Disdain would have some value if it actually exiled the card from the graveyard. Liquify is worse than Dissipate; Mystic Denial is worse than Cancel; Rites of Refusal makes you pitch cards; Statute of Denial is trash compared to Dismiss or even Failed Inspection; and Vex is hot garbage.
Isn't Nix solid against Bolas' Citadel? And I know this is about Commander, but I could possibly see Hisoku getting sideboard play in a deck that likes stuff in the graveyard vs i.e. Lurrus, where you know all your opponent's cards have a narrow range of CMC. Super niche but having a repestable counter could be nice!
Not sure why you rated Minamo's Meddling as worse than Frazzle. Same cmc with no restriction and possible (though unlikely) upside. Honestly I'm not sure meaning even belongs on the list; it's not good by any means, but I'd be thrilled to see it in a limited pool unlike, say Overwhelming Intellect, which is too mana intense for me to like even in EDH.
I think using edh, a format where counterspells in general arevweak to determine the power of a couterspell is pretty bad..also, withering boon definitely deserves a spot
Second guess was designed for a Time when Agro infect decks and Agro mono red Burn decks ( Shrine of burning rage) were common in standard. It was good for when scars and innistrad we're both in standard
If, hypothetically, there were a 0 mana spell that said, "Counter target spell. You draw 2 cards," but it was a sorcery, would it be worth trying to build around?
Ah Runeboggle... that was the time WotC generally agreed Counter was bad for the game and the actively over costed and nerfed printed counterspells. Such a shame coz that was also agreed to be one of the best of recent blocks the Kamigawa/Ravnica blocks xD
I think Runeboggle is pretty good. Most of the time when people cast spells they tap out, especially in early turns, so this card will essentially be a 3-mana cryptic command on counter-draw fairly often. Surprised it hasn't seen modern play tbh
I forgot the name of card from Shadowmoor with cost (R/G) and says "Counter target blue instant spell". I wonder why that one not in the list? Because it can counter evacuation?
That one is a pretty good counter. Guttural response. A one mana red/green counter that counters enemy counters. Was used a lot and still can be found on some Legacy SB. Definitely doesnt belong to this list :D
Seems like Nix could be viable in an environment with a lot of spells that allow non-mana casting options - pay life to cast, or ones that discount to zero from having certain permanents in play or something.
All the good counterspells are kinda few and far between: Counterspell, Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Arcane Denial, Cryptic Command, Supreme Will. There's some others, but some are just useful either on early turns (Force Spike, Censor, Miscalculation) or against red or blue decks (the Elemental Blasts and Ice Age versions. Good sideboard cards.)
There are a lot of bad ones, but also a lot of good ones. Mana Leak, Remand, Rune Snag, Negate, Essence Scatter, Daze, Arcane Denial, Silumgar's Scorn. I could go on. Check out the best counterspells video.
Actually rn in modern I play hisoka's defiance in my control sideboard because it counters goryo's, through the breach, and spirits in the spirits deck. Yeah mana leak works on the first two but against spirits it's pretty good
What about Put Away? It's a counterspell so bad that Devious Cover-up is does its effect 4 times plus also does Dissipate's effect, for the same mana cost. Honestly, 4 mana counterspells seem to be too weak in general.
What about Brine Seer? Not only do you have to pay mana to cast it, you have to pay even _more_ mana and reveal cards from your hand in order to counter one spell.
I’ve never used it but Hisoka (#3) doesn’t actually seem that bad as a commander... it’s not cEDH by a long stretch and casual EDH doesn’t tend to appreciate counter based strategies, but in terms of power level it actually seems fine. It’s a repeatable disrupting shoal that costs 3 instead of a card (the actual disrupting shoal)
Kozilek draws cards so you have ammo and doesn't require mana, which was stupid in the first place. But Kozi is also expensive, so you can't use it as cheap card draw. But it also has a big body, so your opponent has a double incentive to remove it. It's less likely to do absolutely nothing than Hisoka.
i could see nix see play in legacy cause of the mox dudes in edh a liitle less but their are some canditate some manarock manavault or the 3 allowed mox or stuff like that
I'd argue a bit on Hisoka, as certain CMCs (2,3, and 6) are common enough to get hit. Remember, Counterbalance is actually run in Legacy, and that card is even more limited. Personally, I think Hindering Touch should have taken that slot. It's four mana, not a hard counter, and doesn't even give you card advantadge.
I don't understand why Molten Influence is bad? It's a counter spell in red, and if I'm not misinterpreting the text, then it also deals 4 dmg to the opponent which is a nice kick in the teeth
To be fair molten influence is a decent rate on face-burn nowadays and late game it is legitimately a 2-drop sorcery counter spell in red. just make sure you're not up against a creature deck, I guess
Have to correct you on something. For a good bit of modern a spell was paid without paying the mana cost and Nix still didn't get any play at all. For a time living end was considered a top deck. Lol
I was about to say that molten influence could be useful in pauper and then i realized that not even that because you know... pyro and red elemebtal blast exist and i didn't realize it was a rare
Second Guess is about countering a counter spell. If you cast a spell (the first spell that turn) and your opponent counters it (the second spell that turn) then you can hit their counter... It wasn't that bad of a card, especially in limited. If you main phase 1 did something, then your opponent tried to use combat tricks you used it there too.
I'd rather draft a 2 cost card that might take some set up over a 5 cost more hard counter like magiccards.info/rtr/en/161.html Sure it's no great card, but there are worse. When we all started drafting I'm sure we all fell for cards that said stuff like "counter target spell that targets a permanent you control"
I disagree with your number 2 pick. Minamo's meddling is 3 mana to counter, and 1 mana to look at his hand. That information is invaluable in counter decks.
Counting EDHRec usage tells you very little about how bad a card is, just how little it's used in EDH. Runeboggle, for example, is not a bad card but it's not going to be played in a format like EDH where decks produce a ton of mana.
Weirdly bad list imo. Spell snip is much worse - sure, cycling, but runeboggle functionally cycles and can sometimes 2-for-1 whereas spell snip is best case 1:1. minamo's meddling is strictly better than lay bare, which isn't that bad anyway, at least it always works, and it's only 1 mana more than the mediocre cancel. liquify is almost strictly worse than thoughtbind. Spell blast is guaranteed to be mana inefficient. #1 pick seems reasonable but a lot of the other stuff felt more driven by what people choose to (not) play than by what's actually CORRECT to play.
About the first half of these cards didn’t seem any narrower than the ones on the list of beat counterspells especially for the red one which actually seemed mediocre if not even a little good considering it’s red.
Nix could fit into a tiny window, but I feel like it's actually worse than 8, 9, and 10. Frazzle is easily the worst card on this list, Followed closely by Thoughtbind.
I take it, The Great Distortion gets a pass over Hisoka because Hisoka charges 2U to counter? That being said, most EDH decks have such a variety of CMCs in them that it doesn't seem to bad to look at. Kozilek and Azors' Gateway are both seeing play, and both need a variety of CMCs.
+Matthew Montalvo Both of those do a lot more than be a 1/3 with an expensive activated ability. Kozilek loads your handamd is a massive creature, and Gateway loots and then flips into an absurd land. You can't really seriously compare them to Hisoka.
Nizzahon Magic that's true. Your criticism seemed to be on the matching cost to counter ability which is similar on Hisoka and Kozilek, which is what prompted my reply. I would agree Kozilek does more, and that there are better creature based counters. However thanks to you, the Johnny in me wants to make Hisoka a key piece in a deck now just because he isn't lol.
Nix is basically mental mistep, and mental mistep is flat out broken. Nix is interesting in Vintage, but not quite good enough [although it nearly makes the cut]
If Ertai's Trickery were to show up as a reprint/functional reprint in a very kicker-heavy set with some broken-ass kicker spells, it might see sideboard play. Hisoka's Defiance is utterly useless though, as with a CMC of 2, there is no reason to run it even in a super Spirit meta as Remove Soul/Essence Scatter do the same job, but less narrowly...because I gotta be honest, Arcane is never coming back.
I actually have that in my hellbent deck. It works pretty well because, when it's on the field, you can't counter it like a normal counterspell. Unless you have a counter target activated ability, of course.
I mean, yeah it is nice it cannot be targeted for reverse counter. For me its the mana costs of casting and activating and the pitching of the whole hand has drawbacks.
Aren't there some counters that cost 5 cmc? Any expensive counter feels super trashy, versus stuff like Thoughtbind at least being a hard counter for 3 cmc.
I don't think Minamo' Meddling is worse than Frazzle. It's a common, it has the same CMC, it unconditionally counters anything and your opponent has to show their hand, whether you make them discard a card or not.
@@cutecommie Fair enough, though if the limited environment had any multicolor support, I assume people would rather pick Minamo's Meddling. But I think these really don't belong anywhere outside of limited to begin with...
All of a sudden, at Return to Kamigawa years later, Modern Players are running Minamo's Meddling due to pushed Arcane cards with ridiculous Splice effects.
I would say the only time Molten Influence would be good is with Firey Emancipation on the field. 12 damage if the want the spell to go through. Seems pretty good then. But only then. And never anytime else lol
As bad as it is and the fact there are better burn cards out there I get the theory behind molten influence. Your opponent either loses life or a spell and losing to much life can be dangerous against a burn deck.
Nix is actually really good ATM though because of plotting in OTJ, so swings and roundabouts and all that And yes I know this video is 6 years old, I'm just saying for 1 mana to counter something big that has been plotted is huge
