Music and the Masses: Is Classical Music Niche | Dr N J Nandini | Harish Sivaramakrishnan | KLF 2024 

I haven't heard about any Carnatic musician of kerala who can speak so intelligently, mellifluously and eloquently by giving so many examples for past 60 or 70 years... She is so well read and brilliant. Hats off Nandini... 👌👌👌👌👌

Dr. Nandini, I am genuinely impressed and proud of the way you've articulated your thoughts. Your discussion presents a mix of frustration and the stark realities of your field, which is both necessary and courageous. In a world that is increasingly uncertain, complex, volatile, and ambiguous (UCVA), your youthful energy and profound expertise in Carnatic music are invaluable. However, it's important to recognize that the landscape of knowledge and expertise is rapidly changing. What is considered expertise today may evolve or become less relevant tomorrow. Your comparison with medical professionals highlights a critical perspective, yet it might benefit from further clarity. The fields of medicine and Carnatic music, though vastly different in nature and impact, each hold their own unique sets of challenges and societal values. The discussion around occupation, skills, and compensation is indeed complex and varies significantly across different domains. It warrants a broader, more nuanced conversation that is happening globally. Engaging in these discussions openly and candidly, as you have, is crucial. It invites reflection and dialogue about the arts' place in society and the ongoing need for adaptability and awareness in our professions. Keep sharing your insights and leading these important conversations.

A very healthy and engaging discussion! A huge fan of Harishettan 😀

Namaste. Great initiative and a much-needed topic. To make classical music reach to masses it is most important to devise more versions of Krithis and Keertans in various singing styles in addition to existing classical styles. Every lyric should be made to perform in all styles like Bhajana sampradaya, light classical style, and also in light music style so that both Sahithya and Sangeeta remain alive for generations. Masses can not understand classical style. The main intention of the music is to deliver the BHAVA of that particular Krithi to make society live happy and enjoy.

This discussion is quite insightful to debunk the age old convictions regarding music ❤

Both are excellent 💞💞💞

🙏🙏🌸🌺

A very interesting discussion indeed. My personal thoughts are as follows. Two progressive artists like NJN and HS have put forward their thoughts in different ways. This is not a new topic for me, as Balamuralikrishna (BMK), who was a person who revolutionized carnatic music in the last century, used to talk about all these ideas way before. He used to say that classical music is any music that has withstood the test of time. He clearly said that the present Kutcheri format was introduced only 100+ years ago and thats what we call as "tradition". Even in these 100 years, the way Kutcheris are presented have changed. So before the advent of 20th century, the "tradition" was different. Muthuswamy Dikshitar's compositions are not sung the way it's documented in the SSP written by his grandson. In fact, no one really knows how Thyagaraja et al have sung and composed. Long story cut short, HS is right in a way that we define tradition. But at the same time, the basic grammar and structure has not changed .. the 12 notes have not. The Gamakas, the prayogas may undergo some changes but the basics have not. If you add R2 to Hindolam, then it is a different raga. But you can oscillate G2 in Hindolam as you wish, or you can sing it plainly or you can sing it in a gliding fashion like Hindustani musicians do. That freedom is indeed there to any artist. This is a very delicate topic because the most progressive mindset can say that there is nothing called grammar or why not hindolam have R1 / R2 etc because it's all man made. My thoughts on why Carnatic music is not popular has similarities with what NJN and HS have told.. 1) No understanding of lyrics 2) no communication between artist and audience as to what is being done 3) People dont give importance to voice modulation and softness of gamakas when needed . If you sing with enough voice modulation and softness,Carnatic music will definitely sound sweet as opposed to harsh bland gamakas. 4) The lyrics being butchered. No one really cares about the lyrics including audience. That has to change. How words are pronounced, how the words are split etc. Carnatic musicians who are supposed to strict disciplinarians, forget the fact the lyrics are not correctly. 5) Not enough Malayalam compositions in Carnatic. Malayalees end up singing Telugu and tamil kritis and not their own "mother tongue". Tamil artists who I know take specific care to sing tamil kritis. Ideas like "learn from guru, do exactly what he says", is not the right advice . BMK was asked to sing differently by his own Guru. BMK always told his disciples to innovate, dont imitate him, contribute something to the world etc. These days we have RU-vid, online websites, you really dont have to follow one style. You can learn a kriti from 20 different musicians if you are talented enough. The reason I say that if you are talented enough is because you need to be able to identify the good from all these 20 musicians and then improvise on your own. HS reminds me of the famous movie director Lijo Jose Pallisery (LJP), with the slogan "no plans to change, no plans to impress, I will do whatever I want". To an extent I would agree with him but not more than that. NJN has brought out an interesting aspect of less respect and pay to the carnatic artists- but it again boils down to how popular Carnatic Music is, and how much people would be willing to listen. This has to change but for that to happen, artists need to change as well. They need to be communicating with the audience in all possible ways. So to conclude, Carnatic music is still niche due to the reasons I have mentioned above.

Best wishes 🙏🥰🙏

Glad to hear both of them speak❤

Very active and spirited discussion

Super session

good discussion - very effective

Super

As a person who reveres the tradition..I strongly believe that tradition has a room for change.for the same reason we always say "tradition and change" and not "tradition or change".but changes with a sense of appropriateness or ouchithyam..In my opinion of this session with respect to the interactive session Harishji was quite respectul and encouraging and optimistic in responding with the questions of the audience,which comes from his heart,which can be termed as bhaava and that is quite reflected in his singing,and only through bhaava can we get across the audience..whereas the quite knowledgable and hard working lady here is obviously dealing with harishji diplomatically with a feigning humilty and interacting with the audience with an attitude..her assesment regarding the remuneration of the carnatic musicians are substantially true though.. 😊i agree to diiffer in harishjis idea of singing a hindolam with rishabham and to still call it hindolam,it will be like making a tea and calling it coffee.wearing a pant and to call it mundu but still it's a personal choice, you are free to do it.. But commendable approach of harishjis attitude towards your life and people and that makes your music entralls the world..and regarding knowledge and theories i felt nandini too is one among the great scholars...😊

Wonderful session by NJ Nandini and Harish ettan👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 Q&A session ൽ ഒരാൾ ചോദിച്ചു പാടുന്ന വരികളുടെ അർത്ഥം അറിയേണ്ടത് അത്യാവശ്യം അല്ലേ എന്ന്. അതെ എന്ന് നിങ്ങൾ രണ്ട് പേരും സമ്മതിക്കുകയും ചെയ്തു. സത്യത്തിൽ അർത്ഥം അറിഞ്ഞിരിക്കേണ്ടത് ആവശ്യമാണോ? എന്റെ അഭിപ്രായത്തിൽ സംഗീതത്തിന്റെ aesthetics വരികളുടെ അർത്ഥത്തിലല്ല മറിച്ച്, അതിലെ വാക്കുകളും tune ഉം തമ്മിലുള്ള ഒരു combination അല്ലെങ്കിൽ blend ൽ ആണ്. അതുകൊണ്ടല്ലേ അറിയാത്ത ഭാഷകളിലെ എത്രയോ പാട്ടുകൾ നമുക്ക് ആസ്വദിക്കാൻ കഴിയുന്നത്. കേരളത്തിൽ കർണാടക സംഗീത ആസ്വാദകർ ഒരുപാട് ഉണ്ട്. പലർക്കും തെലുങ്ക്, കന്നഡ, സംസ്‌കൃതം ഈ ഭാഷകൾ അന്യമാണ്, എന്നിട്ടും അവരെല്ലാം ഈ ഭാഷകളിലെ കൃതികൾ ആസ്വദിക്കാറില്ലേ?

kidilan program, live kanan pattiyilla enoru sankadam baki

👍👍👍🌹

well said ♡ ♡ ♡

നന്ദിനി കൊച്ചു പറഞ്ഞതു കാര്യം: ഹരീഷ് കൊച്ചൻ പറഞ്ഞതു ന്യായം. രണ്ടു പേരും കലക്കി!

If we are talking about the reach there is no point in denying the fact that Harish Sivaramakrishnan and his amazing band AGAM are the first set of people to take this otherwise considered boring music to an another level. The traditional approach attached to carnatic music makes it a very restrictive format where its catered only to a certain set of audience coming from a particular religion. Walk into a kacheri and you ll mostly see veterans or senior citizens consuming the art form in a temple set up or in a hindus festival environment. Meanwhile walk into an AGAM concert ...the demographics are different.. you ll see majority teens, college goers and middle aged crowd ..and that too in 1000s at a grand venue across countries! Without a doubt peeps at AGAM are flagbearers of picking up carnatic music and moulding it with progressive rock and serving us the best kinda work. When you see a pool of people trained or not sing in unision " Nalinakanthi" dissolving the barriers of caste or religion, age or gender or even the venue at which its performed you feel a sense of happiness and pride, you are there for the beauty of the art! Harish looks at music ,be it any kind as a form of art! And ART is about expression and freedom. If carnatic music is going places and is been delievered in a way the audience would love ,accept and sing along.. so be it. There is no point in putting it into a box ! Art should flow, evolve and take new forms.. the listeners would love anything thats beautiful. Changemakers are often questioned, they face the flak and are put under a bus by a set of narrow minded , stringent set of people. Its been happening since ages. And it takes a lot of effort and strength to go against the stereotypical mindset and go ahead with what you believe in. Fly high AGAM, soar bigger heights Harish! Keep giving them back! We have many people pleasing artists, thanks for not signing up fot that and instead standing up for what you believe in. You inspire. More power to you! Cheers to TPK, Swamy, Kasyap, Shiva, Yadhu, Jagdis and You! Be proud to know even a 4 yr old headbangs to Rangapura Vihara because of you guys!

Harish is discussing the big idea of art, but Nandini's focus is limited to Carnatic music. It's clear that Harish and his band are influential in promoting Carnatic music to youngsters. Why is it difficult for society to accept this reality?

Aaswaadanam thanne oru kalayaanu....

Hareesh❤❤❤ Nandini❤❤❤

Nandhini spoke clearly. Classical Art is timeless. People like Harish depend on it.

Actually I would have preferred if they could have brough Manu S Pillai also on the Panel, to probably shed light into the historic aspects of this discussion.

Rules and boundaries creates and helps sustain the identity and existence of an artform. This makes it enjoyable for the artist as well as the audience. No doubt that any type of discrimination needs to be shunned. Ragas have existence because of these rules which cant be bent. Inability to stick to a structure or grammar should not be called as improvisation, IMHO. You cant improvise by hitting a ball with your leg in Cricket. 🤣

Madam, you speak about Virat came in place of Sachin. But we still wait a singer who has the caliber of Dr.KJY

All arts forms shall be maintained in its own traidition.

വളരെ ശാസ്ത്രീയമായ ഒരു മേഖല ആണ് സംഗീതം. അതിന്റെ ശാസ്ത്രീയ വശങ്ങള്‍ മനസ്സിലാക്കി ആസ്വദിക്കാന്‍ കഴിഞ്ഞാൽ ആസ്വാദന നിലവാരം വളരെ ഉയർന്നു നില്‍ക്കും

An interesting interaction. However was a little disturbed on the remuneration point. I have listened to both these talented artists and Carnatic music or any other forms of music, talent with meticulous practice only brings it to the highest levels . Now on to the selling point, organizers and promoters need to take up huge risks as they are between the artists and the fans . So they negotiate, make losses or profit in the industry. Passion has more to do in the industry, so reaching to the public is more important than remuneration. There is a difference , how you become extraordinary like a U Srinivas , TMK in the current Carnatic scenario, that is where the goal should be and nothing stops one from that

Nandhini maam ❤

32:58 if this is solved then audience will really enjoy this gem

47:36 enikku wrong point aayittu thonnunnu...Enthu kondu Hindolathil rishabham cherthu paadi athine hindolam ennu vilikkanam. Pakaram hindolathinte chayayulla, mattoru ragam ennu paranju athinoru perum koodi ittal pore. Ente ishtathinu njan oronnum maattiyittu enthukondu athinu grammarinte aavashyam ennu tarkkikkunnathu oru thettaya pravanathayanu. Enikku kalyani paadanam pakshe njan oru suddha madhyamame paadullu ennu paranjal athu Sankarabharanamayille. Ini randu madhyamam ( Suddha and prati) vechu paadiyittum athine Kalyani ennu vilikkem venam ennu paranjal seriyako.

Nandini❤

Both of you have different way of singing.harish has a way which can attract mass audience As long as there are people who enjoy hard core traditional way of singing nobody can deny that level of enjoyment which demands training.let it be there.afterall Jonson sir did many songs based on kalyani raga bcoz that raga is creating a particular mood.kalyani was developed by these hardcore classical singers not Jonson sir so we need both of them. If majority gets training in cl.music there will be mass audience.thesre r nobody s fault .in the past very few people sang and enjoyed I think traditional system should be there.its scientific. No matter who keep it alive-ie beyond social class.but one should stick to the discipline.otherwise if there is no traditional kalyani we r loosing a basic set of notes which creates a particular mood.after all that is what ragas is all about Rest is subjective can be interpreted many ways Harish can sing kalyani with added or deleted notes.but basic mood of kayani we can't afford to loose bcoz there won't be kalyani any more for Harish to add or delete swaras

നിങ്ങൾ രണ്ടാളും കൂടി ....... ഏഴ് സ്വരങ്ങൾക്ക് പകരം വേറെ ഏഴ് സ്വരങ്ങൾ കണ്ട് പിടിച്ച് പുരന്ദരദാസരെ ചവിട്ടിപ്പുറത്താക്കൂ ....... തനത് കലകൾ ആത്യന്ത്യ കമാണ്. ബാക്കി അതിൽ നിന്ന് കടമെടുത്ത് നിങ്ങളെപ്പോലെയുള്ളവർ കാട്ടിക്കൂട്ടുന്ന പേക്കൂത്തുകൾ മാത്രം ...... നന്ദിനി പറഞ്ഞതു പോലെ ബൾബുകൾ മാറി മാറി വന്നു . പക്ഷെ ഏഴ്സ്വരങ്ങൾക്കും 12 സ്വരസ്ഥാനങ്ങൾക്കും മാറ്റം വന്നിട്ടില്ല എന്ന സത്യം മനസ്സിലാക്കൂ ...... നിങ്ങൾ മാറ്റം വരുത്തി കാശുണ്ടാക്കൂ തെറ്റില്ല ......

കലാകാരൻമാരും ആസ്വാദകരും മാറണം എന്നു പറഞ്ഞതിന്റെ സാംഗത്യം മനസ്സിലായില്ല..... മാറ്റം പ്രകൃതി നിയമമാണ്. നിങ്ങൽ പറഞ്ഞാലും ഇല്ലെങ്കിലും മാറ്റം തന്നെത്താനെ സംഭവിക്കും. ഒരു കലാകാരന്റെ കലയെ ആസ്വദിക്കാൻ ആഗ്രഹിക്കുന്നവർ അവരവരുടെ സാമ്പത്തിക ശേഷി അനുസരിച്ച് പരിപാടികൾ സംഘടിപ്പിക്കും.... ഇതിലും ഒരു demand, supply & affordability ഉണ്ടെന്നുള്ളത് യാഥാർത്ഥ്യം. അതിനാലാണല്ലോ ഈ രണ്ടു പേർക്കും പരിപാടികൾ അവതരിപ്പിക്കാൻ അവസരം ലഭിക്കുന്നത്. അപ്പോൾ കലാകാരൻമാരിലും ആസ്വാദകരിലും മാറ്റം വരണം എന്ന ഒരു ആകാംക്ഷ അസ്ഥാനത്തല്ലേ ?

ekm undakumo itharam charchakal,,,programes

രണ്ടു പേരും പറയുന്നത് ശരി തന്നെയാണ്

Like Shobhanji dances Bharatnatayam in her way now

this harish guy is a holy crap.... and mad crowd is after him

ശാസ്ത്രീയസംഗീതത്തിൻ്റെ ശാസ്ത്രീയത അതിൻ്റെ ട്രെയിനിംഗ് method ല് ആണ്.

ശാസ്ത്രീയ enna vakkinte meaning ariyamayirunnu ingerkku ithrem vachakam adikanda karyam illayirunnu.

നിയമം ഇല്ലെങ്കിൽ കർണാടക സംഗീതം ഇതുവരെ ഇതുമായിരുന്നില്ല. ഇദ്ദേഹത്തെ പോലുള്ളവർ സംഗീതതെ നശിപ്പിക്കാൻ വന്നതാണ്

ഹിന്ദോളം ആണെങ്കിൽ അത് ഹിന്ദോളം ആവണം,തങ്കം തങ്കം ആവണം, അല്ലെങ്കിൽ ആദ്യം പറയണം ഇത് ഹിന്ദോളം അല്ല raga experiment ആണെന്ന്, കേൾക്കുന്നവരിൽ ഒരാൾ pure ഹിന്ദോളം കേൾക്കാൻ ആഗ്രഹിക്കുകയും ഹിന്ദോളം എന്ന് പറഞ്ഞിട്ട് notes മാറ്റുകയും ചെയ്യുന്നത് നീതി അല്ല. (ശ്രീമതി നന്ദിനിയോട് ആ കാര്യത്തിൽ യോജിക്കുന്നു,2012 carnatic music idol ൽ പാടി തെളിഞ്ഞ താങ്കളുടെ ജ്ഞാനം മനസിലാക്കുന്നു, ഹരി സർ കലർപ്പ് ചേർക്കാതെ പാടുന്നത് വിരളം ആയത് കൊണ്ട് ജ്ഞാനം ഇല്ലാത്തതു കൊണ്ടാകുമോ എന്ന് സംശയം തോന്നും. രണ്ടും ചെയ്താൽ കുറച്ചു നന്നായിരുന്നു (Pure concerts and mix) അല്ലാതെ ഇങ്ങനെ പറയുമ്പോൾ സമ്മതിക്കാൻ ബുദ്ധിമുട്ട് തോന്നും. ഹരി സർ ന്റെ, ആളുകളോടുള്ള interaction പ്രശംസനീയം. ഉത്തര മാം nte ഒരു follower ആണ് ഞാൻ, Mam നെ ഇവിടെ കണ്ടത് ഒരുപാട് സന്തോഷം തോന്നിച്ചു. (Thank you for this session to all)

This is a very loud thinking by two prodigal stalwarts on what the art of music is , where it is now and where it tends to go to. It is interesting to note that both are trying to communicate to the audience what all are the existing problems in this fine form of art and investigating why Karnatic Music is a bird which a kind of lames in flying now. The people who cry from their housetops that old music alone is gold, fail to understand that the music of old as seen now were new then. Some fanciful musicians of those olden times invented and introduced attractive novelties and thus took music further in the direction of progress towards this day. It seems really logical that the masters of yesteryears must have been criticised heavily then. But then they came to be accepted later by large crowds . We are presently eating the fruits of their effort. I beg to disagree with Harishji when he says all kinds of disciplines be abolished as they appear to cripple music through unwanted restrictions. But the fact is that he remained disciplined for many years. He enjoys the results of those highly disciplined artists and of he himself. I disagree with him also when he says that a ragam need not have its basis on a scale. He, for example, feels adding Rishabham to the scale of the Hindolam ragam and then wants to still call it Hindolam. I agree with Nandiniji almost everywhere she spoke in the enthralling multilogue. I felt that Harishji was trying to assert throughout . Was his sense of insecurity feeling that was making him do so? I don’t know. He is a very nice person as I have heard about him at Kochi. Demand and Supply rule in economics is operative in restricting the amount for a concert. Violin and percussion artists are lesser in number and they often demand and get more than an ordinary but talented vocalist. This art form has to grow. It has to go to the people and should not be the property of a few self styled experts closeted in a small area. If the artists become more communicative to the audience in the hall and explain as to what raga the kriti is in and what is being conveyed in it etc there will be better results. I have seen some some Sabha officials asking the concert team to tell such elementary ideas to educate the listeners. Still many singers turn tacit and tightlipped as if they think such things are a taboo in God given Karnatic music. My personal disappointment is that both of these great people seem to be trained to hate Dr. Balamuralikrishna who believed and have been advocating what has been communicated to us here by them.He has, a number of times, urged his fellow musicians to innovate beyond what have been taught by their Gurus. BMK’s Guru asked him to be different from the Guru himself. He gave small intervals, encouraged his fellow men on the stage and communicated with each and all. It was he acknowledged claps and applauses from his audience. He was criticised even for that. He said singing light songs is not as easy as many people love to believe. And also that light music also can become classical if they still appeal as sweet to the listeners after a long time. He, but, insisted that the basic grammar of pitch, Shruthi, accepted scale, thalam etc should not be thrown into the wind. They define music. They give melody and harmony. He moved among very ordinary laymen like me. He sang Kristi’s and raga’s as per (even mine) requests a few times. It was he who declared that he wouldn’t sing for an amount less than a lakh as early as in the Eighties of the last century. But there were many sabhas where he did concerts for, say, as small as ₹ 2000.00, as I have learnt from reliable sources. He believed that for the promotion of music, Sabhas should survive. Many Sabhas struggle to get audience for their monthly concerts. But as Nandini Ji said rightly, it is true thst many many Karnatic musicians find it difficult to earn a living from their passion alone. I have heard about a great as well as gifted artist who lived in near penury in spite of being at the height of fame. Posthumously he became very popular and he has thousands of fans now. There are even concerts and channels in his name. I am sure both of you are already a big name. And you are destined to go to much more fame in due course of time. Our prayers.., When people like you succeed it is music which surges ahead.

I just don't like this Hareesh! He is killing good songs. He don't even know the difference between colloquial language and pure language.

Ella kalakalkkum athinttethaaya 'Paramparyam' ullathanu...Ente Abhiprayathil karnataka Shastriya sangeetathe maattam varuthunna aavashyamilla....Adhava puthiya Avishkaaram undakunnuvengil athinu puthiya peril vilikkunnath uthamam...Allathe nammal thanathaya shailiyil,,paramparyathil,,cheyyunna eeyoru samskrithiye thudarnnum ithepole samrakshikkunnathalle nallath...

മലയാളത്തിൽ ആവാമായിരുന്നു.....

19:33 😂 പാവത്തിനെ കളിയാക്കി😢

കർണ്ണാടക സംഗീതമായാലും ഹിന്ദുസ്ഥാനി ആയാലും വെസ്റ്റേൺ ആയാലും എല്ലാത്തിലും 12 സ്വരങ്ങൾ അല്ലെ ഉള്ളു . അതിനെ സംഗീതം എന്നു മാത്ര മായി കരുതിയാൽ പോരെ ?

Harishji control..control..he is just not allowing her to complete..nthoru ayogyan aanu ..he seriously lacks some grace here..

കുറേ കവർ പാടി നാട്ടുകാർ ഊക്കി വിട്ടു ഇനി അത് എങ്ങനെയെങ്കിലും ശരിയാണെന്ന് വരുത്തി തീർക്കണം. അതിൻറെ തത്രപ്പാടാണ് ഹരിഷിന്

കുരങ്ങൻ്റെ കയ്യിൽ പൂമാല കിട്ടിയ പോലെയായി😂

ശാസ്ത്രീയമായി എന്തും പഠിച്ചിട്ട് അതിൽ സ്വാഭാവികമനോധർമം ചേർക്കുന്നത് മനസ്സിലാകും' അതില്ലാതെയും മനപ്പൂർവ്വംതാനാണ് എല്ലാത്തിൻ്റെയും അവസാന വാക്കെന്നു ധരിക്കുന്നത് അപലപനീയം നിങ്ങളും നിങ്ങളുടെ മാത്രം വഴിയെ കൂട്ടാൻ ശ്രമിക്കുന്നുണ്ട് -

ദൈവദത്തമായ കലയാണ് സംഗീതംസമ്മതിച്ചു ഗായകരോട് ആരാധനയുമുണ്ട്. പക്ഷെ ഇവനെപ്പോലെ സംഗീതത്തെ വ്യഭിചരിക്കുന്നവനോട് പുച്ഛംമാത്രം. Improvisation എന്ന ഓമനപ്പേരിട്ട് 'തോന്നുംപോലെ' പാടാൻ സംഗീതം പഠിക്കേണ്ട കാര്യമില്ല സ്വഭാവികമായികഴിവുള്ള ആൾക്കാർമതി.

Pattupadi Kolam akunna Harish evidenthina

Anyway I don't like these cover songs....

Halwa nd mathi curry combination 😂

Lkg teacher is most respectable than your engineering teacher mr Harish... Music talent is inate quality and it excel with the help of teachers and techniques developed by the great scholars ... In Bharat it's called God gifted..in western its by birth whatever you call . when its carnatic music its the base of Rama Krishna Siva Laxmi etc thats the base dont forget that... Harish is like those who proudly say that they have born out the sexual pleasure of his parents... This is the difference between these idiotic musicians and our gana Gandharva.. he always says its the blessings of the god and his teachers.. Madam ji ...pls avoid these humpbacks in future..you spoke very sensibly..❤❤❤

🙏👌